pH all over the place...all of a sudden

[Jason in Oakland]

I have a 12 gallon tank with 5 small golden barbs and 2 ottos in it.
I've had this setup for about five months, and except for an initial
cycling problem, everything has gone smoothly for the past 4 1/2
months. I performed water changes with one of those gravel vacuums
every 4 weeks, changing out about half of the water. The fish loved
it, the plants were fine. Ammonia and nitrite have always been at
zero, nitrates around 20-40ppm. Tap water is about 8.5 in my area, I
use AmQuel+ for chloramine removal with new water, and that's pretty
much it.

I was getting higher and higher amounts of algae growing in my tank,
longer-stranded versions started appearing and growing on everything.
That was the only change I noticed. I just scrubbed it off and did
water changes to reduce the nutrient load in the tank, more or less
the usual.

About a week ago, suddenly a happy, social otto (admitted a smaller,
and without a big belly otto died). I checked ammonia/NO2/NO3, all
normal (i.e. 0/0/20ppm). Then I checked pH. It had always hovered
around 7.5 (I know not ideal for these fish--they prefer more
acidic--but they were happy). This time? 5 or even below! (I use
Tetratest) I was in a panic, and did a GH/KH test. GH was very, very
high, around 300 ppm, and KH almost nil, i.e. no buffering whatsoever.

I'm not sure what happened all of a sudden. The water source didn't
change at all, I think. I retested the water pH, same at around 8-8.5
(had never checked KH before that, so no comparison).

So since then, I've been doing frequent water changes, and dosing the
incoming water with bicarbonate. I can bring the water to a pH of
6.5-7, and it will stay stable at that level for a few hours. By the
next morning, it will have plummeted down to 5 again.

The fish, thankfully are alive, but the ottos look permanently
agitated (constricted pupils, dorsal fin permanently up--before they
had more dilated pupils, dorsal fin down, slower "panting", not so
agitated-looking). The golden barbs have so far been pretty hardy, but
they've also been a tiny bit more skittish lately.

One strange thing about my tests: when I add (dissolved in water)
bicarbonate to the tank, and wait about a half-hour for it to
thoroughly mix in, I take a sample and run a pH test on it, it comes
out around 7 or so. Then many hours later, the samply pH (I don't
immediately rinse it out) drifts up to around 8. This would suggest to
me that there was some dissolved CO2, but the tank is heavily aerated,
is full of plants (these samples were taken when the light was on),
and there is plenty of ventilation in my room. Why the drift? Do the
reagents do that, or is there a high concentration of CO2 for some
reason (and all of a sudden, because this was never the case before)?

So I'm add dissolved bicarbonate about 3x a day, but the pH keeps on
plummeting. I haven't been able to test KH for a few days now (ran out
of test strips) but before, the KH was proportional to pH.

What could be producing so much acid all of a sudden? (I don't have
peat or any new fish stocks, or any other change that should be
causing this) Any ideas, because I'm at my wit's end!!!!

[Geezer From The Freezer]

rotting food or plants can cause acid and PH to swing.
Also I'd suggest doing weekly changes rather than monthly
that will help to stop such heavy swings of PH. Do you ever
gravel vac and remove plant debris?

[antony burkill]

I dunno but from what I have read 1st I would get rid of test strips and
use liquid tests these are more accurate than strips.
2nd Slow down..adding X to Y doesn't always make Z. Ok bicarb does increase
Ph but adding it at such a rate..you are adding bicarb daily yet changing
water monthly??
Before you add anything to the tank add it to a bucket and fill, test then
leave for 24hrs test again if ok add to tank
there is a reason for algae growth...excess nutrients/light...something
If water from tap is 8.5ph then something in tank is altering it..( we know
that much) so have you added any shells or wood etc..or have you treated the
fish with medication and used carbon...?

I would change water 30% daily for a week and then see what happens, keep a
log of samples etc and then you can refer to it..

Hope all goes well...



"Geezer From The Freezer" > wrote in message
...
> rotting food or plants can cause acid and PH to swing.
> Also I'd suggest doing weekly changes rather than monthly
> that will help to stop such heavy swings of PH. Do you ever
> gravel vac and remove plant debris?

[RedForeman ©®]

|| I have a 12 gallon tank with 5 small golden barbs and 2 ottos in it.
|| I've had this setup for about five months, and except for an initial
|| cycling problem, everything has gone smoothly for the past 4 1/2
|| months. I performed water changes with one of those gravel vacuums
|| every 4 weeks, changing out about half of the water. The fish loved
|| it, the plants were fine. Ammonia and nitrite have always been at
|| zero, nitrates around 20-40ppm. Tap water is about 8.5 in my area, I
|| use AmQuel+ for chloramine removal with new water, and that's pretty
|| much it.
||
|| I was getting higher and higher amounts of algae growing in my tank,
|| longer-stranded versions started appearing and growing on everything.
|| That was the only change I noticed. I just scrubbed it off and did
|| water changes to reduce the nutrient load in the tank, more or less
|| the usual.
||
|| About a week ago, suddenly a happy, social otto (admitted a smaller,
|| and without a big belly otto died). I checked ammonia/NO2/NO3, all
|| normal (i.e. 0/0/20ppm). Then I checked pH. It had always hovered
|| around 7.5 (I know not ideal for these fish--they prefer more
|| acidic--but they were happy). This time? 5 or even below! (I use
|| Tetratest) I was in a panic, and did a GH/KH test. GH was very, very
|| high, around 300 ppm, and KH almost nil, i.e. no buffering
|| whatsoever.
||
|| I'm not sure what happened all of a sudden. The water source didn't
|| change at all, I think. I retested the water pH, same at around 8-8.5
|| (had never checked KH before that, so no comparison).
||
|| So since then, I've been doing frequent water changes, and dosing the
|| incoming water with bicarbonate. I can bring the water to a pH of
|| 6.5-7, and it will stay stable at that level for a few hours. By the
|| next morning, it will have plummeted down to 5 again.
||
|| The fish, thankfully are alive, but the ottos look permanently
|| agitated (constricted pupils, dorsal fin permanently up--before they
|| had more dilated pupils, dorsal fin down, slower "panting", not so
|| agitated-looking). The golden barbs have so far been pretty hardy,
|| but they've also been a tiny bit more skittish lately.
||
|| One strange thing about my tests: when I add (dissolved in water)
|| bicarbonate to the tank, and wait about a half-hour for it to
|| thoroughly mix in, I take a sample and run a pH test on it, it comes
|| out around 7 or so. Then many hours later, the samply pH (I don't
|| immediately rinse it out) drifts up to around 8. This would suggest
|| to me that there was some dissolved CO2, but the tank is heavily
|| aerated, is full of plants (these samples were taken when the light
|| was on), and there is plenty of ventilation in my room. Why the
|| drift? Do the reagents do that, or is there a high concentration of
|| CO2 for some reason (and all of a sudden, because this was never the
|| case before)?

This is a leading indication that time has decayed something in the tank
which is causing an acidic condition... what? Rotting leaves, food or
fish...

|| So I'm add dissolved bicarbonate about 3x a day, but the pH keeps on
|| plummeting. I haven't been able to test KH for a few days now (ran
|| out of test strips) but before, the KH was proportional to pH.

I used baking soda, and have NEVER had to put more than 1 tblsp per water
change, which is every 14 days. I do a 25% and add 1tblsp of baking soda,
helps maintain the 7.0-7.2 pH/ 3-5kH that I'm looking for....

|| What could be producing so much acid all of a sudden? (I don't have
|| peat or any new fish stocks, or any other change that should be
|| causing this) Any ideas, because I'm at my wit's end!!!!

Geezer hit the nail on the head I think... Monthly water changes, aren't
enough to keep up with possible rotting leaves, poop, extra food if any, or
such to create a pH crash.... once your buffer runs out, that's what
happens...

Not knowing the whole story, which would involve much time, lets try this.
Whatever your tap water values, lets just say, 7.5. Since you don't mention
having CO2, I'll leave that out. If your tap water is a pH of 7.5, do you
know it's kH?? it's probably so low that it allowed a pH to drop like
crazy... which is called a pH crash, and is usually caused by the buffer
running out... That can be prevented by doing weekly water changes, keeping
better track of your water chemistry, maybe up the level of your buffer, and
things will probably settle down, if not get better...

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[johnhuddleston]

I had a similar problem in my tank, perfect nitrite and ammonia, just a
repeated ph fall. I found that it was a build up of semi liquid waste below
the UGF. I had to do twice weekly changes to keep the PH up.

Anyway I noticed the airstones were looking a little gunky, so cleaned them,
put them back in the uplifts and blew hard. What looked like slimy pea soup
flew out of the uplift tube and turned the water a yellowy green. there was
no solid waste, just this slimy stuff.

I just took the fish, gravel, ugf, ornaments and plants out, emptied all the
gunky water, put everything back in and refilled it. my water is very soft
but it`s been stable ever since.

I`d seriously investgate your gravel, dig right in and stir it up, there has
to be a lot of decomposing going on and thats the only place it could be
happening.

"Jason in Oakland" > wrote in message
om...
> I have a 12 gallon tank with 5 small golden barbs and 2 ottos in it.
> I've had this setup for about five months, and except for an initial
> cycling problem, everything has gone smoothly for the past 4 1/2
> months. I performed water changes with one of those gravel vacuums
> every 4 weeks, changing out about half of the water. The fish loved
> it, the plants were fine. Ammonia and nitrite have always been at
> zero, nitrates around 20-40ppm. Tap water is about 8.5 in my area, I
> use AmQuel+ for chloramine removal with new water, and that's pretty
> much it.
>
> I was getting higher and higher amounts of algae growing in my tank,
> longer-stranded versions started appearing and growing on everything.
> That was the only change I noticed. I just scrubbed it off and did
> water changes to reduce the nutrient load in the tank, more or less
> the usual.
>
> About a week ago, suddenly a happy, social otto (admitted a smaller,
> and without a big belly otto died). I checked ammonia/NO2/NO3, all
> normal (i.e. 0/0/20ppm). Then I checked pH. It had always hovered
> around 7.5 (I know not ideal for these fish--they prefer more
> acidic--but they were happy). This time? 5 or even below! (I use
> Tetratest) I was in a panic, and did a GH/KH test. GH was very, very
> high, around 300 ppm, and KH almost nil, i.e. no buffering whatsoever.
>
> I'm not sure what happened all of a sudden. The water source didn't
> change at all, I think. I retested the water pH, same at around 8-8.5
> (had never checked KH before that, so no comparison).
>
> So since then, I've been doing frequent water changes, and dosing the
> incoming water with bicarbonate. I can bring the water to a pH of
> 6.5-7, and it will stay stable at that level for a few hours. By the
> next morning, it will have plummeted down to 5 again.
>
> The fish, thankfully are alive, but the ottos look permanently
> agitated (constricted pupils, dorsal fin permanently up--before they
> had more dilated pupils, dorsal fin down, slower "panting", not so
> agitated-looking). The golden barbs have so far been pretty hardy, but
> they've also been a tiny bit more skittish lately.
>
> One strange thing about my tests: when I add (dissolved in water)
> bicarbonate to the tank, and wait about a half-hour for it to
> thoroughly mix in, I take a sample and run a pH test on it, it comes
> out around 7 or so. Then many hours later, the samply pH (I don't
> immediately rinse it out) drifts up to around 8. This would suggest to
> me that there was some dissolved CO2, but the tank is heavily aerated,
> is full of plants (these samples were taken when the light was on),
> and there is plenty of ventilation in my room. Why the drift? Do the
> reagents do that, or is there a high concentration of CO2 for some
> reason (and all of a sudden, because this was never the case before)?
>
> So I'm add dissolved bicarbonate about 3x a day, but the pH keeps on
> plummeting. I haven't been able to test KH for a few days now (ran out
> of test strips) but before, the KH was proportional to pH.
>
> What could be producing so much acid all of a sudden? (I don't have
> peat or any new fish stocks, or any other change that should be
> causing this) Any ideas, because I'm at my wit's end!!!!