Beginner: tank size, filtration

[Steve Thornton]

I'm trying to decide what size tank to start with, and how much
filtration I need. I can support the weight of a 55 gallon tank, but
I'm also interested in a 29 gallon and a 40 or 33 gallon "long" tank.

My aesthetic preference is long but not very tall. From the research
I've done that's a better way to go for lighting and oxygenation;
shorter for the same footprint.

However, I don't know where to go to buy the things; I'm not really
interested in buying something like this sight unseen over the web.
There's a big Petsmart here, but I don't know of any other good
specialty shops in Seattle. Petsmart offers a glass 55g in their
store, and an acrylic 40g or 33g, online only, for much more $.

Fish preference is going to start with a school of neon tetras or
zebra danios, and go from there. Eventually the focus will be a large
school (maybe 20 fish?) with either a second school of something or
one or two larger "focus" fish. It seems to me to be more important to
decide what kind of setup I want and then get the fish to fit the
circumstances; they all have their good points. The water here is hard
and very alkaline. I haven't decided on live vs. plastic plants yet; I
have a brown thumb in the outdoor garden....

I've been reading and hearing a lot of conflicting information on
filtering. As a belt-and-suspenders type, but also interested in
convenience, I'm inclined towards two power filters. The Petsmart shop
has kits with their own Top Fin brand of filter, and the guy in the
shop says the one that comes with is enough, but I'm always attracted
to overkill: I want two smaller bio-wheel jobbies instead. Emperors or
Penguins? What size?

I've read all the FAQs and perused a number of great websites, but I'd
love to hear some more pros and cons from the folks here.

--
Steve Thornton

[NetMax]

interspersed...

"Steve Thornton" > wrote in message
om...
> I'm trying to decide what size tank to start with, and how much
> filtration I need. I can support the weight of a 55 gallon tank, but
> I'm also interested in a 29 gallon and a 40 or 33 gallon "long" tank.

A simple truism is that the larger the aquarium is, the easier it is to
manage. I personally think that life really starts at around 60g, and
anything smaller is more nuisance than pleasure, but that's because I'm
lazy and once my tanks are balanced, I like to leave them alone. The 4
foot tank also has definite lighting economies. An 18" front to back
dimension is ok with small to medium fish, but for heavily planted or for
lots of rockwork, 24" is better. Smaller than 18" will leave you wanting
more (imo).

> My aesthetic preference is long but not very tall. From the research
> I've done that's a better way to go for lighting and oxygenation;
> shorter for the same footprint.

With good lighting and efficient filtration, the differences between tall
tanks and square-end tanks becomes less meaningful. If you like, stock
your 55g as if it was a 40g. The fish won't complain ;~)

> However, I don't know where to go to buy the things; I'm not really
> interested in buying something like this sight unseen over the web.
> There's a big Petsmart here, but I don't know of any other good
> specialty shops in Seattle. Petsmart offers a glass 55g in their
> store, and an acrylic 40g or 33g, online only, for much more $.

Online tanks have higher transport costs, so ymmv. There are
high-quality tanks carried by many retailers (ie: Oceanic) which you can
compare (glass thickness) with what they consider as their entry-level
bargain tanks. Many peripherals are significantly less expensive
on-line. Support your local fish store which gives you good service and
has good fish stock. When comparing costs, decide when it is worth
buying on-line instead. For less than a 10-20% difference, on-line might
not be worth it, as it has it's own inconveniences (transport damage,
shipped wrong parts, doesn't work etc).

> Fish preference is going to start with a school of neon tetras or
> zebra danios, and go from there. Eventually the focus will be a large
> school (maybe 20 fish?) with either a second school of something or
> one or two larger "focus" fish. It seems to me to be more important to
> decide what kind of setup I want and then get the fish to fit the
> circumstances; they all have their good points. The water here is hard
> and very alkaline. I haven't decided on live vs. plastic plants yet; I
> have a brown thumb in the outdoor garden....

Define hard and alkaline in numbers (ie: dgH and pH). Neons might not be
a good starting choice. One example: Rift lake African cichlids do well
in hard-alkaline water, but most do poorly in small tanks (a 55g would be
the minimum size for most of these fish, though there are a few dwarfs to
choose from). It will all depend on how hard & alkaline your water is
(ie: above or below 8.0pH).

> I've been reading and hearing a lot of conflicting information on
> filtering. As a belt-and-suspenders type, but also interested in
> convenience, I'm inclined towards two power filters. The Petsmart shop
> has kits with their own Top Fin brand of filter, and the guy in the
> shop says the one that comes with is enough, but I'm always attracted
> to overkill: I want two smaller bio-wheel jobbies instead. Emperors or
> Penguins? What size?

Yup, don't listen to salesmen, you have it right. Here is my take on the
topic:
http://www.2cah.com/netmax/basics/filters/filters.shtml . Select two
filters sized to about 75% of your required capacity (so you are running
at 150% normally). Note that your bio-load will influence you filter
choices. The Marineland stuff is (imo) a little dainty for a tank of
large carnivores, but you had indicated going with smaller fish, so they
would be great. I wrote something on stocking
http://www.2cah.com/netmax/basics/stocking/stocking.shtml which might be
helpful. Sorry it's a bit long (once I get started, it's hard to shut up
;~).

> I've read all the FAQs and perused a number of great websites, but I'd
> love to hear some more pros and cons from the folks here.

Pose your questions. Lot's of experienced folks here to help.
--
www.NetMax.tk


> --
> Steve Thornton
>

[Steve Thornton]

"NetMax" > wrote ...

> Define hard and alkaline in numbers (ie: dgH and pH).

I haven't run a test myself but the city (Seattle, WA) says on their
website:

pH 8.1 - 8.7 (very alkaline)
KH: 15
GH: 25 (hard)

I wonder about that, though, because it doesn't behave like hard water
from a soap-and-shampoo perspective; it lathers great, rinses out
great. The well water we have up in our mountain cabin seems much
harder. I'll have to buy a complete test kit anyways (yes, it is
mandatory, because I am a geeky mcgeek geek and am probably if truth
be told more interested in the gear and equipment than the actual
fish; fortunately the fish will be in the hands of my far more
sensible wife); I guess I'll go out and get one now and find out for
sure.

I've done more reading and believe that if those numbers are close to
correct the tetras are out, and African cichlids become a possibility.

What is not a possibility is getting involved in advanced water
chemistry manipulation. I'm not interested in anything more
complicated than (maybe) stuffing a little peat in a filter.

My tank size concerns are still foremost. I have easy access to the
acrylic 55 gallon SeaClear tanks, as well as their 40 gallon tanks,
which are shorter, shallower, and deeper front to back (and more
attractive for that reason). Bigger than 55 is out for various reasons
having to do with a very small house and a desire not to be divorced.

Thanks for your advice! I'm still wanting someone to just say "shut up
and do THIS", but all the different perspectives and possibilities are
helping me learn.

My local shop, which I discovered after a surprising amount of
difficulty searching online, due to search-contamination from on the
one hand "fish" as in "fish for dinner", and on the other "aquarium"
as in The Seattle Aquarium, is "The Fish Store", on Roosevelt Way
near the University District (and me). they seem to be pretty smart,
have a MUCH larger and more interesting selection than Petsmart, even
though their main focus appears to be marine stuff. Anyone here have
experience with them?

--
Steve Thornton

[[email protected]]

Steve Thornton wrote:
> "NetMax" > wrote ...
>
> > Define hard and alkaline in numbers (ie: dgH and pH).
>
> I haven't run a test myself but the city (Seattle, WA) says on their
> website:
>
> pH 8.1 - 8.7 (very alkaline)
> KH: 15
> GH: 25 (hard)

So, I don't know what's up with the City of Seattle website, but the
REAL answers to these questions, as told by the clerk at Fish Store and
confirmed by me with my new Aquarium Pharmaceuticals, Inc. test kits
just moments ago, is the EXACT OPPOSITE.

The water is very soft and mildly acidic or neutral.

My shampoo is smarter than I am, apparently.

Results for fresh water straight out of the tap:

pH 7.0
KH 2 degrees dKH, roughly 350 ppm.

That makes tetras and most other common aquarium fish a good choice,
instead of that armload of Malawi cichlids I was about to go buy. Life
is simple. Life is good.

Still can't decide on a dang tank size, though. I wish they had 60g in
stock at any area store. I have decided to go acrylic, based on
everything I've read and heard. I understand the arguments behind
glass, but I think in a freshwater tank with careful attention paid to
how I clean it I'll be fine. The Fish Store has their fish in thousands
of gallons of SeaClear acrylic tanks that all look perfectly sparkling
to me.

Another consideration is lighting. I'm looking at the SeaClear 40 or
50, which has a better footprint than the skinny 55, but only has a
single 24" fixture that doesn't even go to the ends of the tank. It
also doesn't have cutouts for filters on both ends, only in the middle.
Their 100 gallon tank is perfect in many ways (4' long, but is just too
large for the space and my wife's temperament. Ah, decisions, decisions.

[NetMax]

> wrote in message
...
> Steve Thornton wrote:
> > "NetMax" > wrote ...
> >
> > > Define hard and alkaline in numbers (ie: dgH and pH).
> >
> > I haven't run a test myself but the city (Seattle, WA) says on their
> > website:
> >
> > pH 8.1 - 8.7 (very alkaline)
> > KH: 15
> > GH: 25 (hard)
>
> So, I don't know what's up with the City of Seattle website, but the
> REAL answers to these questions, as told by the clerk at Fish Store and
> confirmed by me with my new Aquarium Pharmaceuticals, Inc. test kits
> just moments ago, is the EXACT OPPOSITE.
>
> The water is very soft and mildly acidic or neutral.
>
> My shampoo is smarter than I am, apparently.
>
> Results for fresh water straight out of the tap:
>
> pH 7.0
> KH 2 degrees dKH, roughly 350 ppm.

Remember to re-test your water sample after 24 hours. Dissolved gases in
freshly drawn water can give incorrect pH readings.

The city's readings seem consistant with each other 8.4pH, 15dkH and
25dgH. Your readings (7.0pH, 2dkH and 20dgH) seem a bit odd. I don't
know what could cause such a drop in pH and kH with so little effect on
gH, so I'm suspicious. Maybe they are using multiple well sources and
the one in use now has low kH (?).

I wouldn't jump at getting fish which really like soft acidic water
(20dgH is *not* soft water), but it's now more moderate and will
accomodate many more fish types more easily, so life is good (if not
consistant ;~). I'd bet your water averages around 8.2pH and what you
are seeing is seasonal variation. Is there an aquarium society in
Seattle? Drop into their monthly meeting and find out for sure (they are
also a good source for cheap fish & stuff).
--
www.NetMax.tk

> That makes tetras and most other common aquarium fish a good choice,
> instead of that armload of Malawi cichlids I was about to go buy. Life
> is simple. Life is good.
>
> Still can't decide on a dang tank size, though. I wish they had 60g in
> stock at any area store. I have decided to go acrylic, based on
> everything I've read and heard. I understand the arguments behind
> glass, but I think in a freshwater tank with careful attention paid to
> how I clean it I'll be fine. The Fish Store has their fish in thousands
> of gallons of SeaClear acrylic tanks that all look perfectly sparkling
> to me.
>
> Another consideration is lighting. I'm looking at the SeaClear 40 or
> 50, which has a better footprint than the skinny 55, but only has a
> single 24" fixture that doesn't even go to the ends of the tank. It
> also doesn't have cutouts for filters on both ends, only in the middle.
> Their 100 gallon tank is perfect in many ways (4' long, but is just too
> large for the space and my wife's temperament. Ah, decisions,
decisions.
>

[[email protected]]

NetMax wrote:
> > wrote
> >
> > Results for fresh water straight out of the tap:
> >
> > pH 7.0
> > KH 2 degrees dKH, roughly 350 ppm.
>
> Remember to re-test your water sample after 24 hours. Dissolved
gases in
> freshly drawn water can give incorrect pH readings.
>
> The city's readings seem consistant with each other 8.4pH, 15dkH and
> 25dgH. Your readings (7.0pH, 2dkH and 20dgH) seem a bit odd. I
don't
> know what could cause such a drop in pH and kH with so little effect
on
> gH, so I'm suspicious. Maybe they are using multiple well sources
and
> the one in use now has low kH (?).

There's a simple explanation: a typographical error. 2 degrees KH is
correct, ppm is off by a factor of ten (35, not 350).

The water is very soft and slightly acidic, confirmed by my local fish
shop and local aquarium society.

> I wouldn't jump at getting fish which really like soft acidic water

I'm not going to jump at anything! In fact, I'm not going to get any
fish at all; my wife is. With me helping. I'm just the researcher and
the heavy lifter in our house; aesthetic decisions are another matter.

60 gallon acrylic, 4' by 15" by 20" tall, that's what I've settled on.
In stock (I was wrong, they have them in the back). Two filters, two
heaters, etc. Gift certificate for the fish themselves.

Now, I'm sorely tempted by the gorgeous but insanely expensive
backgrounds at www.pangeashop.com. I know I'm too inept to successfully
make my own styro+resin one. I wonder if the polyurethane fake stone
tiles meant for outsides of houses is stable enough to put in aquarium
water?

[NetMax]

> wrote in message
...
> NetMax wrote:
> > > wrote
> > >
> > > Results for fresh water straight out of the tap:
> > >
> > > pH 7.0
> > > KH 2 degrees dKH, roughly 350 ppm.
> >
> > Remember to re-test your water sample after 24 hours. Dissolved
> gases in
> > freshly drawn water can give incorrect pH readings.
> >
> > The city's readings seem consistant with each other 8.4pH, 15dkH and
> > 25dgH. Your readings (7.0pH, 2dkH and 20dgH) seem a bit odd. I
> don't
> > know what could cause such a drop in pH and kH with so little effect
> on
> > gH, so I'm suspicious. Maybe they are using multiple well sources
> and
> > the one in use now has low kH (?).
>
> There's a simple explanation: a typographical error. 2 degrees KH is
> correct, ppm is off by a factor of ten (35, not 350).
>
> The water is very soft and slightly acidic, confirmed by my local fish
> shop and local aquarium society.
>
> > I wouldn't jump at getting fish which really like soft acidic water
>
> I'm not going to jump at anything! In fact, I'm not going to get any
> fish at all; my wife is. With me helping. I'm just the researcher and
> the heavy lifter in our house; aesthetic decisions are another matter.
>
> 60 gallon acrylic, 4' by 15" by 20" tall, that's what I've settled on.
> In stock (I was wrong, they have them in the back). Two filters, two
> heaters, etc. Gift certificate for the fish themselves.
>
> Now, I'm sorely tempted by the gorgeous but insanely expensive
> backgrounds at www.pangeashop.com. I know I'm too inept to successfully
> make my own styro+resin one. I wonder if the polyurethane fake stone
> tiles meant for outsides of houses is stable enough to put in aquarium
> water?

Congratulations on sorting out your water and the tank choice. Regarding
the fake tiles, the polyurethane itself is inert (safe), so your concern
is whether they used a safe finish (epoxy, fibreglass etc) or not (paint)
.. Contact them and ask. If it's designed for ponds, it's safe,
otherwise ymmv.
--
www.NetMax.tk