Re: Newbie questions - tank set up

[Jaroslav Vopalensky]

> >> Thanx for the advice. Do you (or anyone else) have any suggestions for
> >> bright coloured cichlids that *could* be kept in a 24" cubed tank ?
> >>
> >> I'm quite willing to hear that this size is plain unsuitable for
> >> cichlids, it's just that if there are any that will live happily in
> >> there, I would like to know so I can consider them.
> >
> >Since you have soft water and like plants, you might want to look into
> >Apistogrammas...
>
> Thanx for the suggestion, but I looked at some pics of them and wasn't
> over impressed. Maybe they look better in real life, but the pics I saw
> didn't particularly excite me.

Okay then, so what about tanganyikans? Neolamprologus leleupi for example...

[rmc]

> Okay then, so what about tanganyikans? Neolamprologus leleupi for
example...
>
>

--

Now you're talking!!

Tanganyikans can be very aggressive too, but in a much different way.
They don't tend to chase the females to death as readily as the Mbuna
and they seem to be content with a much smaller territory like the
flower pot they spawn in. I've kept Leleupi in 20-gallon tanks and
had absolutely no trouble at all. Some species of Julidochromis, and
some of the shell dwellers can also be kept in a smaller tank. Many
of these substrate spawners will form a pair bond and are quite
interesting to watch but once the pair is formed they may kill the
rest of the species in that tank. In a small tank you can pretty much
count on it.

Julidochromis will pair bond so 1m and 1f will probably be the max.
The Karalini (Firecracker) Leleupi don't seem to grow as large as the
common ones and they hold their color much better IMO. A pair would
be all I suggest. The shell dwellers can be kept in harems - 1m &
multiple females, as long as you have enough shells. I'm partial to
the Occelatus Gold for their color and attitude but I like them all.
Altolamprologus Calvus would also work. They may eventually need a
larger tank but they grow EXTREMELY SLOW. If they do outgrow the tank
in a few years you would have no problem finding a home for them.

I would not be afraid to keep all four species in your tank as long as
you stay on top of the water parameters. I would expect to see all of
these spawn and the risk of hybrids is almost non-existent so you
should have no worries there, but they will prey on each others fry.
The Calvus especially.

Mark
http://www.cichliddomain.com

[rmc]

> Wow, are you Rift Lake cichlid fans fanatic!! ;-)
> If I remember correctly, the poster was looking for fish (cichlids)
that
> would do well in soft, acid water, and not require modifying. In
this case,
> I think Tanganyikans would be a poor choice due to the water. Size,
colour,
> personality, and temperament would fit, but not in this water.
> It looks like the Rift Lake fans have lost a potential convert.
>
> Jim

--
Yes....yes I am. :-)

I know that the person has soft water but I believe they also said
they could and were willing to adjust the water parameters and that
they wanted Africans as the first choice. Face it, with a 2 ft sq
tank and soft water the choices start to get very narrow unless a
person wants to make some adjustments. The ph does not need to be 9.0
for Tanganyika cichlids. Anything close to 8.0 would be fine. I keep
mine in 7.8 which is what my tapwater is.

Mark
http://www.cichliddomain.com

[Alan Silver]

In article >, Jim Brown
> writes
>Wow, are you Rift Lake cichlid fans fanatic!! ;-) If I remember
>correctly, the poster was looking for fish (cichlids) that would do
>well in soft, acid water, and not require modifying. In this case, I
>think Tanganyikans would be a poor choice due to the water. Size,
>colour, personality, and temperament would fit, but not in this water.
>It looks like the Rift Lake fans have lost a potential convert.

I have come round slightly on the water hardness point. It seems that a
crushed coral substrate should harden the water enough. My reasons for
looking for fish to match the water were that it is one less worry for
the fishes' health. Making the water harder seems simple and safe enough
to not provide any worries.

Thanx for the reply

--
Alan Silver

[Alan Silver]

In article >, rmc
> writes
>I know that the person has soft water but I believe they also said they
>could and were willing to adjust the water parameters and that they
>wanted Africans as the first choice.

That was mainly because I had seen some beautiful ones. In truth I'm
willing to consider anything. I'm still at the general research stage
;-)

> Face it, with a 2 ft sq tank and soft water the choices start to get
>very narrow unless a person wants to make some adjustments. The ph
>does not need to be 9.0 for Tanganyika cichlids. Anything close to 8.0
>would be fine. I keep mine in 7.8 which is what my tapwater is.

My tap water is 7, but it doesn't seem to difficult or risky modifying
this slightly. Any other changes that are simple and safe that would
widen the scope ?

Thanx for the reply. I'm going to do a search on the ones you mentioned
to see what they look like. I'm getting confused with so many fish here
!! It's hard to remember what you've seen and not !!

--
Alan Silver

[rmc]

>
> Thanx for the reply. I'm going to do a search on the ones you
mentioned
> to see what they look like. I'm getting confused with so many fish
here
> !! It's hard to remember what you've seen and not !!
>
> --
> Alan Silver
>

--
Here is a link where you can find some pics

http://www.cichliddomain.com/Photo%20Album/index.htm

Mark
http://www.cichliddomain.com

[Alan Silver]

In article >, rmc
> writes

OK, done some searching and I'm back with more questions ...

>The shell dwellers can be kept in harems - 1m & multiple females, as
>long as you have enough shells. I'm partial to the Occelatus Gold for
>their color and attitude but I like them all.

Well, they certainly look nice. Not as bright as some, but still very
attractive.

> Altolamprologus Calvus would also work. They may eventually need a
>larger tank but they grow EXTREMELY SLOW. If they do outgrow the tank
>in a few years you would have no problem finding a home for them.

Now here I got a bit confused. If you look at the following three pages
....

http://www.cichlidae.com/gallery/Altolamprologus/calvus.html
http://www.cybercichlids.com/altowhite.htm
http://www.gcca.net/index.htm?content=/fom/Altolamprologus_calvus.htm

you will see (in order) a rather stunning yellow fish, a not quite as
stunning but nevertheless very attractive black and white fish and a
rather dull (IMHO) fish.

Does this simply indicate variations in the species (like all the colour
variations in angel fish for example), or are they distinct species ?
Are they all easy to find ?

>I would not be afraid to keep all four species in your tank as long as
>you stay on top of the water parameters.

What mix would you recommend ? I'm not looking for a "bit of everything"
tank, so don't feel you have to work out a mix that includes all four.

> I would expect to see all of these spawn and the risk of hybrids is
>almost non-existent so you should have no worries there, but they will
>prey on each others fry. The Calvus especially.

Not too worried about spawning anyway. Whilst it's exciting, it does
raise the problems of what to do with the fry in the time between being
too big to stay in the original tank and being big enough to sell.

Bear in mind I'm looking at a 24" cube tank 'cos I don't have space for
a bigger one !!

Thanx very much for the reply. Any further info would be greatly
appreciated.

--
Alan Silver

[rmc]

> Now here I got a bit confused. If you look at the following three
pages
> you will see (in order) a rather stunning yellow fish, a not quite
as
> stunning but nevertheless very attractive black and white fish and a
> rather dull (IMHO) fish.
> Does this simply indicate variations in the species (like all the
colour
> variations in angel fish for example), or are they distinct species
?
> Are they all easy to find ?

There are numerous color variants of the Altolamprologus Calvus and
Compressiceps. Their color depends on the location of where they were
collected. Some are called "red" and some are called "yellow" but
neither exhibit vibrant coloration. A rusty color is most likely what
you will see in most conditions. The flash of a camera will often
misrepresent the true color. My preference is the "white" or "black"
Calvus, but that's just me. You may like the others and that's fine.
They all behave and grow the same. Although different color morphs
can cross, it is very unlikely.

> What mix would you recommend ? I'm not looking for a "bit of
everything"
> tank, so don't feel you have to work out a mix that includes all
four.

> Not too worried about spawning anyway. Whilst it's exciting, it does
> raise the problems of what to do with the fry in the time between
being
> too big to stay in the original tank and being big enough to sell.


The four species I mentioned and the ratio should co-exist without too
much trouble and offer some interesting entertainment. If you don't
want to raise the fry that's fine. These fish will have no problem
snacking on them. The Calvus is an ambush predator and fry are the
common diet, but the other fish won't pass up an opportunity either.
Spawning is what cichlids are best at and providing the habitat will
let them exhibit the behavior they're best known for.

> Bear in mind I'm looking at a 24" cube tank 'cos I don't have space
for
> a bigger one !!

Your fluctuations in water parameters would be less drastic with more
volume. At almost 2.5 gallons per 1-inch of height, an 18-inch high
tank will give you a 40-gallon tank which I think would suffice.

> Thanx very much for the reply. Any further info would be greatly
> appreciated.

Choose a light-colored substrate and the Leleupi will show much better
color. I like to use sandblasting sand but many people don't. It
costs approx $5 at the local lumber mart, won't cloud the water, and
these fish can do their landscaping much easier. The shell dwellers
will utilize snail shells for their homes and protection, Calvus like
conch shells, and the other two like caves.

--

Mark
http://www.cichliddomain.com

[Alan Silver]

In article >, rmc
> writes
<snip>
>There are numerous color variants of the Altolamprologus Calvus and
>Compressiceps.
<snip>

OK, thanx for that. I guess it's down to finding a shop with some and
seeing what takes my fancy.

>> What mix would you recommend ?
<snip>
>The four species I mentioned and the ratio should co-exist without too
>much trouble and offer some interesting entertainment.
<snip>

Pardon my stupidity, but all of these names are new to me, so I want to
make sure I got you. Are the four species ...

Altolamprologus Calvus
Neolamprologus Occelatus Gold
Compressiceps
Julidochromis

or did I miss something ?

If these are right, then I like the first two best. You said the last
could be a problem with other fish, so I'd probably avoid them. I must
have missed the Compressiceps in the thread 'cos I didn't go looking for
them (will do now though !!).

So, assuming I stick with the first two listed above, what mix do you
recommend ? Sorry to keep asking this, but being a complete newbie with
these I want to get it right. Just an indication of how many males and
females of each would be excellent.

>> Bear in mind I'm looking at a 24" cube tank 'cos I don't have space
>for
>> a bigger one !!
>
>Your fluctuations in water parameters would be less drastic with more
>volume. At almost 2.5 gallons per 1-inch of height, an 18-inch high
>tank will give you a 40-gallon tank which I think would suffice.

The 24" cube would give me about 57 US gallons, 24x24x18" would give me
about 43 US gallons. Surely the extra 14 gallons would help ? Or would
the fish not use the extra space ?

>Choose a light-colored substrate and the Leleupi will show much better
>color. I like to use sandblasting sand but many people don't. It
>costs approx $5 at the local lumber mart, won't cloud the water, and
>these fish can do their landscaping much easier.

Will that affect the pH or hardness ? Remember I have soft neutral
water. I had heard that crushed coral was a good substrate for cichlids
as it hardens the water. Would sand do the same ?

> The shell dwellers
>will utilize snail shells for their homes and protection, Calvus like
>conch shells, and the other two like caves.

When I get that far, I'll be back to ask how to decorate the tank !! Our
LFS sells shells, so I would get some of those.

Thanx very much for the excellent help. I really appreciate it. I feel
quite close to a major event here !! If you can help me sort out a good
mix then I would feel more confident in going out and looking for some
of these fish.

Thanx again.

--
Alan Silver

[rmc]

> <snip>
> >There are numerous color variants of the Altolamprologus Calvus and
> >Compressiceps.
> <snip>
>
> OK, thanx for that. I guess it's down to finding a shop with some
and
> seeing what takes my fancy.

These fish may be hard to find at most LFS. You may have to visit a
local aquarium club or order online.



> Pardon my stupidity, but all of these names are new to me, so I want
to
> make sure I got you. Are the four species ...
>
> Altolamprologus Calvus
> Neolamprologus Occelatus Gold
> Compressiceps
> Julidochromis
>
> or did I miss something ?

The four were:
Altolamprologus Calvus - The Altolamprologus Compressiceps look almost
the same. Chose a pair of either.
Neolamprologus Occelatus - 1m & 3-4f (N. Brevis & Multifaciatus are
also nice shell dwellers)
Neolamprologus Leleupi - 1m & 1f I like the Karalini (Firecracker)
strain the most - small & better color
Julidochromis - 1m & 1f J. Transcriptus Gombi or Bemba stay smaller
and shouldn't harm the others.


>
> If these are right, then I like the first two best. You said the
last
> could be a problem with other fish, so I'd probably avoid them. I
must
> have missed the Compressiceps in the thread 'cos I didn't go looking
for
> them (will do now though !!).


The Julidochromis will form a very strong pair-bond and may attack
others of the same species but I wouldn't consider them a problem. It
is best not to separate them once they have bonded. Otherwise, they
are not really considered a threat to the other fish unless there is a
large difference in size.

Any of these fish can be extremely difficult to sex even as adults. I
don't even try, I just wait until I see them pair up. If you plan on
getting juveniles, you may want to get 4 of each species and let
nature do its work. When the pairs form you can sell or give away the
extras if they are getting beat up.


>
> So, assuming I stick with the first two listed above, what mix do
you
> recommend ? Sorry to keep asking this, but being a complete newbie
with
> these I want to get it right. Just an indication of how many males
and
> females of each would be excellent.
>
> >> Bear in mind I'm looking at a 24" cube tank 'cos I don't have
space
> >for
> >> a bigger one !!
> >
> >Your fluctuations in water parameters would be less drastic with
more
> >volume. At almost 2.5 gallons per 1-inch of height, an 18-inch
high
> >tank will give you a 40-gallon tank which I think would suffice.
>
> The 24" cube would give me about 57 US gallons, 24x24x18" would give
me
> about 43 US gallons. Surely the extra 14 gallons would help ? Or
would
> the fish not use the extra space ?


I think the bigger question here is: How long are your arms? To be
able to reach the bottom of the tank is a good idea.



>
> >Choose a light-colored substrate and the Leleupi will show much
better
> >color. I like to use sandblasting sand but many people don't. It
> >costs approx $5 at the local lumber mart, won't cloud the water,
and
> >these fish can do their landscaping much easier.
>
> Will that affect the pH or hardness ? Remember I have soft neutral
> water. I had heard that crushed coral was a good substrate for
cichlids
> as it hardens the water. Would sand do the same ?

Sandblasting sand will do nothing for buffering your water. Crushed
coral is a fine substrate for rift lake cichlids but will do little to
buffer the water when used as a substrate. I would suggest putting
crushed coral in the filter or some place so the water runs through
it. The media cartridge of an Emperor power filter works good. I'm
not saying you need an Emperor, but if you look at one you will get
the idea and can adapt to suit your needs. Since buffering this way
takes a substantial amount of time, you will likely need to add some
buffers to your water during setup and possibly during water changes
if you do large volumes.

Somewhere on the site http://www.malawicichlidhomepage.com they
discuss what salts they use for buffering. George and Francesco are
very experienced fishkeepers and have some excellent ideas. You could
buy Tanganyika or Malawi Buffers too. Like I stated in an earlier
post: These fish will do fine in water that is buffered to hold a ph
close to 8.0. My tapwater is 7.8 and I have not added buffers for
years.

I would definitely refrain from high ph until after your biological
system stabilizes or you may end up with ammonia poisoning. I don't
mean to scare you but ammonia is far more toxic in 9.0 ph than it is
at 8.0 Maybe Tanganyika cichlids hate high ph but they live with it
because they can't change it or move to another lake. Who knows?
Mine are doing great in 7.8


--

Mark
http://www.cichliddomain.com

[Jaroslav Vopalensky]

> Sandblasting sand will do nothing for buffering your water. Crushed
> coral is a fine substrate for rift lake cichlids but will do little to
> buffer the water when used as a substrate. I would suggest putting
> crushed coral in the filter or some place so the water runs through
> it. The media cartridge of an Emperor power filter works good. I'm
> not saying you need an Emperor, but if you look at one you will get
> the idea and can adapt to suit your needs. Since buffering this way
> takes a substantial amount of time, you will likely need to add some
> buffers to your water during setup and possibly during water changes
> if you do large volumes.
>
> Somewhere on the site http://www.malawicichlidhomepage.com they
> discuss what salts they use for buffering. George and Francesco are
> very experienced fishkeepers and have some excellent ideas. You could
> buy Tanganyika or Malawi Buffers too. Like I stated in an earlier
> post: These fish will do fine in water that is buffered to hold a ph
> close to 8.0. My tapwater is 7.8 and I have not added buffers for
> years.
>
> I would definitely refrain from high ph until after your biological
> system stabilizes or you may end up with ammonia poisoning. I don't
> mean to scare you but ammonia is far more toxic in 9.0 ph than it is
> at 8.0 Maybe Tanganyika cichlids hate high ph but they live with it
> because they can't change it or move to another lake. Who knows?
> Mine are doing great in 7.8

Great! When I suggested N. leleupi I was kind of hoping, that some
"tang-expert" will jump in and give a good advice.

To the pH - I think too high pH will be too much trouble with little or no
benefits. Actually, if I'm informed correctly, the lake Tanganyika itself
have pH ranging from 7.5-9, so 7.8 is probably more than enough...

Mark, do you have any ideas on tiny 10 gal Tanganikan tank? I'm
SA/CA-cichlid-guy, so I'm saving my bigger tank for them, but I have a spare
10 and might be interested in trying tangs on a small scale...

I know about shelldwellers, but unfortunately I haven't been able to find
them locally, but I'll keep trying. Is there anything else besides them that
would work in 10G? Some Julies? Or perhaps single leleupi with...? (I know
leleupis are inter-species aggressive, but are they aggressive towards other
fish)... Ideas?

--
J.

[Alan Silver]

In article >, rmc
> writes
<snip>
>I think the bigger question here is: How long are your arms? To be
>able to reach the bottom of the tank is a good idea.

;-)

Thanx for all the useful info. I need to do some "real life" research
now (ie, going to shops and looking at these fish rather than looking at
piccies on the web).

Ta ra

--
Alan Silver

[rmc]

> Great! When I suggested N. leleupi I was kind of hoping, that some
> "tang-expert" will jump in and give a good advice.
>
> To the pH - I think too high pH will be too much trouble with little
or no
> benefits. Actually, if I'm informed correctly, the lake Tanganyika
itself
> have pH ranging from 7.5-9, so 7.8 is probably more than enough...
>
> Mark, do you have any ideas on tiny 10 gal Tanganikan tank? I'm
> SA/CA-cichlid-guy, so I'm saving my bigger tank for them, but I have
a spare
> 10 and might be interested in trying tangs on a small scale...
>
> I know about shelldwellers, but unfortunately I haven't been able to
find
> them locally, but I'll keep trying. Is there anything else besides
them that
> would work in 10G? Some Julies? Or perhaps single leleupi with...?
(I know
> leleupis are inter-species aggressive, but are they aggressive
towards other
> fish)... Ideas?
>
> --
> J.
>
>

--
I guess I judge the comfort level of most cichlids by their
willingness to spawn. I have only tried species-only setups in
smaller tanks and really did not have much success although others do.
I've kept pairs of Julidochromis, N. Occelatus, and Leleupi in
separate 10-gallon tanks and they survived but would not spawn until I
put them into 20-gallon long tanks.

To find the fish you are looking for you may have to shop online or
contact some members of a local aquarium club if there is one in your
area.

Mark
http://www.cichliddomain.com

[Jaroslav Vopalensky]

> I guess I judge the comfort level of most cichlids by their
> willingness to spawn. I have only tried species-only setups in
> smaller tanks and really did not have much success although others do.
> I've kept pairs of Julidochromis, N. Occelatus, and Leleupi in
> separate 10-gallon tanks and they survived but would not spawn until I
> put them into 20-gallon long tanks.
>
> To find the fish you are looking for you may have to shop online or
> contact some members of a local aquarium club if there is one in your
> area.
>
> Mark
> http://www.cichliddomain.com

I've done some reading and I'm leaning towards N. multifasciatus, if I can
find some. Do you think that single N. leleupi might work with them? Are
they aggressive even when they're not paired (and not breeding)? It might be
interesting to see shellies and the leleupi interact, but I don't want it to
be a "battle arena"! :-)

I think there are some working mailorders here (Czech rep.), which
specializes in tangs, but I don't know if shipping just a few fish is a good
idea. But I'll take a look at it also... It would be probably best to find a
breeder who lives near enough me, they usually have good selection of good
quality fish at much lower prices than in LFS...

--
J.

[keviinpiter]

I am not afraid to let all the animals in your tank, as long as you stay on top of the water parameters. I want to see all of these species and hybrids of the risk is almost non-existent so you should not have to worry about, but they will fry in each person's game. The Calvus in particular.

[daarrelmills]

Some fishes looks horrible but very few, we can't have shark in our tank. Its so big for our tank or pool. But piranha can we have. There is a lot of mutation in fishes so there is lots of new fishes we can see now a days.

[anddrewcraig]

I would not be abashed to accumulate all four breed in your catchbasin as continued as you break on top of the baptize parameters. I would apprehend to see all of these spawn and the accident of hybrids is about non-existent so you should accept no worries there, but they will casualty on anniversary others fry.