Marine fish & inverts

[[email protected]]

Instead of allowing the mentally impoverished idiots to ruin this
group, in my opinion it would be preferable for all the original
on-topic contributors to continue to post their comments.

Regards, Fishnut.

[George Patterson]

wrote:
> Instead of allowing the mentally impoverished idiots to ruin this
> group, in my opinion it would be preferable for all the original
> on-topic contributors to continue to post their comments.
>
> Regards, Fishnut.

We do when we have some.

George Patterson
If you torture the data long enough, eventually it will confess
to anything.

[Huey]

On 21 Jul, 21:28, George Patterson > wrote:
> wrote:
> > Instead of allowing the mentally impoverished idiots to ruin this
> > group, in my opinion it would be preferable for all the original
> > on-topic contributors to continue to post their comments.
>
> > Regards, Fishnut.
>
> We do when we have some.
>
> George Patterson
> If you torture the data long enough, eventually it will confess
> to anything.

It has certainly been a long long time since there was any content on
this group. I have never posted before now, and have always lurked. It
seems like its time to go to web based forum if your looking for any
info or content. I honestly do not think some in this group help the
situation any either with smart comments to trolls. Its best to ignore
and they will soon dissapear.

[George Patterson]

Huey wrote:

> Its best to ignore
> and they will soon dissapear.

I completely agree with this as far as trolls are concerned, but that's not what
we seem to have here. We've got a couple of loonies that are posting garbage and
cross-posting it to half the world. I doubt that the amount of feedback they get
from this group has any influence over whether or not they retain the group in
their cross-posting list. In fact, I doubt that they even look at this group at
all - they just post to it. So I doubt that they will ever "disappear."

That doesn't mean that we should start answering their stuff, though.
Cross-posting an answer will just increase the amount of traffic in these
threads, and, if you remove the other groups from the list, your post will
probably not even be seen by the perps. It will just be another annoyance to the
rest of us.

The lack of "real" traffic here is caused by the fact that no novice is going to
come in and start participating in a group with this much garbage. The people
who are left here (myself included) all think they are fairly knowledgeable, so
we don't have a lot to say if nobody else asks questions. We also have each
other's mail addresses and tend towards private discussions instead of posts.

George Patterson
If you torture the data long enough, eventually it will confess
to anything.

[Don Geddis]

George Patterson > wrote on Tue, 24 Jul 2007:
> The people who are left here (myself included) all think they are fairly
> knowledgeable, so we don't have a lot to say if nobody else asks
> questions.

OK, I'll try a question.

I had a colony of Bird's Nest coral (Pocillopora damicornis):
http://reef.geddis.org/a/Bird's%20Nest%20Coral/
In the last couple of days, I got that so-called "rapid tissue necrosis" (RTN).

A small piece of the coral starts to die off, turning into a uniform brown
jelly, leaving behind a bleached white skeleton. The infection, or whatever
it is, spreads rapidly, killing inches worth in a few hours.

It seems it can be "fixed" by quickly pruning all the infected parts, along
with a buffer of still-healthy coral. Anything that hasn't yet gotten touched
may well survive. It doesn't seem to travel through the water column.

But on the other hand, any piece of the coral that has been touched by an
infected piece, starts dying off within a few hours (and continues to spread).
It does seem species-specific: killed off all of my (connected) bird's nest,
but didn't seem to bother any other nearby corals.

Anyone have advice or suggestions? This happened to a large colony of mine
before, as you can see from the photos at the link above in Sept 2006.
I regrew the colony over the last six months, to larger than it had been
before. But just lost it all in the last couple of days.

Why does this start? Does the colony just get too big, and maybe I don't have
enough water motion to clean away toxins from the center? I once lost a large
plate coral (Montipora capriconis)
http://reef.geddis.org/a/Plate%20Coral/
in much the same way.

One could always just generally suspect "water quality", but I'm not
stressing the tank with my bioload, and everything else is doing great. For
that matter, the colonies that die all look great right before the few days
of encroaching terminal death kill them. (And actually the extremities
continue to look good, until the brown jelly death infection crawls up the
branches to get to the ends and kill them too.)

Very frustating, a year of growth gone in a day or two.

Comments appreciated.

-- Don
__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/
"I think," said Christopher Robin, "that we ought to eat all our provisions
now, so we won't have so much to carry." -- A. A. Milne

[Wayne Sallee]

First, it's recommended that you fragment your
corals so that you have several colonies, so that if
something happens to one, you still have the other.

I would recommend that you do several water changes,
increase lighting for the coral by replacing bulbs,
adding more lighting, and/or raising the coral up to
a higher place in the tank. Also check to see if you
need more water flow for the coral. They do need
good water flow. They usually do best when treated
like acripora. However there are different species
of birds nest corals, so their needs are going to vary.

Yes when you get an infection in a coral with many
polyps such as a small polyp coral, cutting off the
infected part by cutting where the colony is still
good, helps save the rest of the coral.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets


Don Geddis wrote on 7/24/2007 11:00 PM:
> George Patterson > wrote on Tue, 24 Jul 2007:
>> The people who are left here (myself included) all think they are fairly
>> knowledgeable, so we don't have a lot to say if nobody else asks
>> questions.
>
> OK, I'll try a question.
>
> I had a colony of Bird's Nest coral (Pocillopora damicornis):
> http://reef.geddis.org/a/Bird's%20Nest%20Coral/
> In the last couple of days, I got that so-called "rapid tissue necrosis" (RTN).
>
> A small piece of the coral starts to die off, turning into a uniform brown
> jelly, leaving behind a bleached white skeleton. The infection, or whatever
> it is, spreads rapidly, killing inches worth in a few hours.
>
> It seems it can be "fixed" by quickly pruning all the infected parts, along
> with a buffer of still-healthy coral. Anything that hasn't yet gotten touched
> may well survive. It doesn't seem to travel through the water column.
>
> But on the other hand, any piece of the coral that has been touched by an
> infected piece, starts dying off within a few hours (and continues to spread).
> It does seem species-specific: killed off all of my (connected) bird's nest,
> but didn't seem to bother any other nearby corals.
>
> Anyone have advice or suggestions? This happened to a large colony of mine
> before, as you can see from the photos at the link above in Sept 2006.
> I regrew the colony over the last six months, to larger than it had been
> before. But just lost it all in the last couple of days.
>
> Why does this start? Does the colony just get too big, and maybe I don't have
> enough water motion to clean away toxins from the center? I once lost a large
> plate coral (Montipora capriconis)
> http://reef.geddis.org/a/Plate%20Coral/
> in much the same way.
>
> One could always just generally suspect "water quality", but I'm not
> stressing the tank with my bioload, and everything else is doing great. For
> that matter, the colonies that die all look great right before the few days
> of encroaching terminal death kill them. (And actually the extremities
> continue to look good, until the brown jelly death infection crawls up the
> branches to get to the ends and kill them too.)
>
> Very frustating, a year of growth gone in a day or two.
>
> Comments appreciated.
>
> -- Don
> __________________________________________________ _____________________________
> Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/
> "I think," said Christopher Robin, "that we ought to eat all our provisions
> now, so we won't have so much to carry." -- A. A. Milne

[Huey]

On 25 Jul, 09:27, Wayne Sallee > wrote:
> First, it's recommended that you fragment your
> corals so that you have several colonies, so that if
> something happens to one, you still have the other.
>
> I would recommend that you do several water changes,
> increase lighting for the coral by replacing bulbs,
> adding more lighting, and/or raising the coral up to
> a higher place in the tank. Also check to see if you
> need more water flow for the coral. They do need
> good water flow. They usually do best when treated
> like acripora. However there are different species
> of birds nest corals, so their needs are going to vary.
>
> Yes when you get an infection in a coral with many
> polyps such as a small polyp coral, cutting off the
> infected part by cutting where the colony is still
> good, helps save the rest of the coral.
>
> Wayne Sallee
> Wayne's Pets
>
>
> Don Geddis wrote on 7/24/2007 11:00 PM:
>
>
>
> > George Patterson > wrote on Tue, 24 Jul 2007:
> >> The people who are left here (myself included) all think they are fairly
> >> knowledgeable, so we don't have a lot to say if nobody else asks
> >> questions.
>
> > OK, I'll try a question.
>
> > I had a colony of Bird's Nest coral (Pocillopora damicornis):
> > http://reef.geddis.org/a/Bird's%20Nest%20Coral/
> > In the last couple of days, I got that so-called "rapid tissue necrosis" (RTN).
>
> > A small piece of the coral starts to die off, turning into a uniform brown
> > jelly, leaving behind a bleached white skeleton. The infection, or whatever
> > it is, spreads rapidly, killing inches worth in a few hours.
>
> > It seems it can be "fixed" by quickly pruning all the infected parts, along
> > with a buffer of still-healthy coral. Anything that hasn't yet gotten touched
> > may well survive. It doesn't seem to travel through the water column.
>
> > But on the other hand, any piece of the coral that has been touched by an
> > infected piece, starts dying off within a few hours (and continues to spread).
> > It does seem species-specific: killed off all of my (connected) bird's nest,
> > but didn't seem to bother any other nearby corals.
>
> > Anyone have advice or suggestions? This happened to a large colony of mine
> > before, as you can see from the photos at the link above in Sept 2006.
> > I regrew the colony over the last six months, to larger than it had been
> > before. But just lost it all in the last couple of days.
>
> > Why does this start? Does the colony just get too big, and maybe I don't have
> > enough water motion to clean away toxins from the center? I once lost a large
> > plate coral (Montipora capriconis)
> > http://reef.geddis.org/a/Plate%20Coral/
> > in much the same way.
>
> > One could always just generally suspect "water quality", but I'm not
> > stressing the tank with my bioload, and everything else is doing great. For
> > that matter, the colonies that die all look great right before the few days
> > of encroaching terminal death kill them. (And actually the extremities
> > continue to look good, until the brown jelly death infection crawls up the
> > branches to get to the ends and kill them too.)
>
> > Very frustating, a year of growth gone in a day or two.
>
> > Comments appreciated.
>
> > -- Don
> > __________________________________________________ _________________________*____
> > Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/
> > "I think," said Christopher Robin, "that we ought to eat all our provisions
> > now, so we won't have so much to carry." -- A. A. Milne- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

No one really gives a rats ass about your sick ass corals.........

[Huey]

On 23 Jul, 21:33, George Patterson > wrote:
> Huey wrote:
> > Its best to ignore
> > and they will soon dissapear.
>
> I completely agree with this as far as trolls are concerned, but that's not what
> we seem to have here. We've got a couple of loonies that are posting garbage and
> cross-posting it to half the world. I doubt that the amount of feedback they get
> from this group has any influence over whether or not they retain the group in
> their cross-posting list. In fact, I doubt that they even look at this group at
> all - they just post to it. So I doubt that they will ever "disappear."
>
> That doesn't mean that we should start answering their stuff, though.
> Cross-posting an answer will just increase the amount of traffic in these
> threads, and, if you remove the other groups from the list, your post will
> probably not even be seen by the perps. It will just be another annoyance to the
> rest of us.
>
> The lack of "real" traffic here is caused by the fact that no novice is going to
> come in and start participating in a group with this much garbage. The people
> who are left here (myself included) all think they are fairly knowledgeable, so
> we don't have a lot to say if nobody else asks questions. We also have each
> other's mail addresses and tend towards private discussions instead of posts.
>
> George Patterson
> If you torture the data long enough, eventually it will confess
> to anything.

you really are a dumbass huh Georgie boi!

[Don Geddis]

Wayne Sallee > wrote on Wed, 25 Jul 2007:
> First, it's recommended that you fragment your corals so that you have
> several colonies, so that if something happens to one, you still have the
> other.

Yup, I agree completely. Done that many times in the past, which is why I've
always managed to regenerate my lost colony -- from my own frags -- in the
past.

It's still frustrating to watch a colony grow from a small frag to the size
of a loaf of bread in a year, and then watch it die in a couple of days.

> I would recommend that you do several water changes, increase lighting for
> the coral by replacing bulbs, adding more lighting, and/or raising the coral
> up to a higher place in the tank.

Well, ok. I'm ashamed to admit that in this particular case, my lights are
about two years old (so probably should be replaced), and, while my usual
pattern is a monthly 10% water change, circumstances have made it to almost
two months this time since my last water change.

I'm not completely convinced that this "caused" my coral problem, but I'll
surely grant that it wouldn't hurt to replace the bulbs and do a water change.
(I've already got MH lighting, BTW.)

> Also check to see if you need more water flow for the coral. They do need
> good water flow. They usually do best when treated like acripora.

Yeah, I've got a lot of water flow. 192g display tank, Sequence Dart Reeflo
pump (3600GPH), going to three SCWDs, which then output to 12 return nozzles.

When I built the tank, I was originally hoping to put in a surge device.
That would have given me awesome random water flow. Never quite managed it,
though. But, for a tank without a separate surge box, I think the water flow
is probably as good as anybody's. I don't have a jet aimed directly at the
coral that died, but that rarely seems like a good idea anyway.

> Yes when you get an infection in a coral with many polyps such as a small
> polyp coral, cutting off the infected part by cutting where the colony is
> still good, helps save the rest of the coral.

Yup, that's my experience too.

Just really tough to cut away enough, fast enough. Especially when the
infection gets to the base of the coral. The branches are pretty far apart,
but they all come together closely at the base. And once a base trunk starts
to go, nothing seems to prevent it eventually killing all the branches on that
trunk.

Very sad...

-- Don
__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/
Draw with crayon. Cut with an axe. Measure with a micrometer.

[Wayne Sallee]

Don Geddis wrote on 7/25/2007 12:54 PM:
> I don't have a jet aimed directly at the
> coral that died, but that rarely seems like a good idea anyway.
>

Don't *over* do it :-)

>> Yes when you get an infection in a coral with many polyps such as a small
>> polyp coral, cutting off the infected part by cutting where the colony is
>> still good, helps save the rest of the coral.
>
> Yup, that's my experience too.
>
> Just really tough to cut away enough, fast enough. Especially when the
> infection gets to the base of the coral. The branches are pretty far apart,
> but they all come together closely at the base. And once a base trunk starts
> to go, nothing seems to prevent it eventually killing all the branches on that
> trunk.
>
> Very sad...
>

Yea it can spread very fast. One coral can be easily
killed in 2 to 3 days in this manner. It can also
spread to other corals. It can also get an infection
like this, and not kill the entire colony.

One thing that I've found with lighting is that the
higher light intensity it is used to getting, the
more vigor it has to overcome such killings.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets

[Don Geddis]

Wayne Sallee > wrote on Wed, 25 Jul 2007:
> One thing that I've found with lighting is that the higher light intensity it
> is used to getting, the more vigor it has to overcome such killings.

Yeah, that's an interesting and good idea. Rather than try to prevent all
(coral or fish) illnesses, and rather than try to cure disease with medicine
once it comes, just keep your animals super-healthy and let their own
natural defenses fight off the diseases.

That's probably a more effective approach than trying to fix things after
they're broken.

-- Don
__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/
Wanted, Dead or Alive: Schrodinger's Cat.

[[email protected]]

I think George's comments were correct and reasonable.

Regards, Fishnut.

On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 07:55:41 -0700, Huey > wrote:

>On 23 Jul, 21:33, George Patterson > wrote:
>> Huey wrote:
>> > Its best to ignore
>> > and they will soon dissapear.
>>
>> I completely agree with this as far as trolls are concerned, but that's not what
>> we seem to have here. We've got a couple of loonies that are posting garbage and
>> cross-posting it to half the world. I doubt that the amount of feedback they get
>> from this group has any influence over whether or not they retain the group in
>> their cross-posting list. In fact, I doubt that they even look at this group at
>> all - they just post to it. So I doubt that they will ever "disappear."
>>
>> That doesn't mean that we should start answering their stuff, though.
>> Cross-posting an answer will just increase the amount of traffic in these
>> threads, and, if you remove the other groups from the list, your post will
>> probably not even be seen by the perps. It will just be another annoyance to the
>> rest of us.
>>
>> The lack of "real" traffic here is caused by the fact that no novice is going to
>> come in and start participating in a group with this much garbage. The people
>> who are left here (myself included) all think they are fairly knowledgeable, so
>> we don't have a lot to say if nobody else asks questions. We also have each
>> other's mail addresses and tend towards private discussions instead of posts.
>>
>> George Patterson
>> If you torture the data long enough, eventually it will confess
>> to anything.
>
>you really are a dumbass huh Georgie boi!
>

[[email protected]]

On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 20:00:17 -0700, Don Geddis > wrote:

>George Patterson > wrote on Tue, 24 Jul 2007:
>> The people who are left here (myself included) all think they are fairly
>> knowledgeable, so we don't have a lot to say if nobody else asks
>> questions.
>
>OK, I'll try a question.
>
>I had a colony of Bird's Nest coral (Pocillopora damicornis):
> http://reef.geddis.org/a/Bird's%20Nest%20Coral/
>In the last couple of days, I got that so-called "rapid tissue necrosis" (RTN).
>
>A small piece of the coral starts to die off, turning into a uniform brown
>jelly, leaving behind a bleached white skeleton. The infection, or whatever
>it is, spreads rapidly, killing inches worth in a few hours.
>
>It seems it can be "fixed" by quickly pruning all the infected parts, along
>with a buffer of still-healthy coral. Anything that hasn't yet gotten touched
>may well survive. It doesn't seem to travel through the water column.
>
>But on the other hand, any piece of the coral that has been touched by an
>infected piece, starts dying off within a few hours (and continues to spread).
>It does seem species-specific: killed off all of my (connected) bird's nest,
>but didn't seem to bother any other nearby corals.
>
>Anyone have advice or suggestions? This happened to a large colony of mine
>before, as you can see from the photos at the link above in Sept 2006.
>I regrew the colony over the last six months, to larger than it had been
>before. But just lost it all in the last couple of days.
>
>Why does this start? Does the colony just get too big, and maybe I don't have
>enough water motion to clean away toxins from the center? I once lost a large
>plate coral (Montipora capriconis)
> http://reef.geddis.org/a/Plate%20Coral/
>in much the same way.
>
>One could always just generally suspect "water quality", but I'm not
>stressing the tank with my bioload, and everything else is doing great. For
>that matter, the colonies that die all look great right before the few days
>of encroaching terminal death kill them. (And actually the extremities
>continue to look good, until the brown jelly death infection crawls up the
>branches to get to the ends and kill them too.)
>
>Very frustating, a year of growth gone in a day or two.
>
>Comments appreciated.
>
> -- Don
>__________________________________________________ _____________________________
>Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/
>"I think," said Christopher Robin, "that we ought to eat all our provisions
>now, so we won't have so much to carry." -- A. A. Milne

Don,

I am sorry to hear of your losses. I have recently read an article
where a very experienced writer said that freshwater dips were an
appropriate treatment, as long as they were carried as soon as the
condition was recognized. Tomorrow, I will try to find out where the
article appeared.

Regards, Fishnut.

[[email protected]]

On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 21:04:29 GMT, wrote:

>On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 20:00:17 -0700, Don Geddis > wrote:
>
>>George Patterson > wrote on Tue, 24 Jul 2007:
>>> The people who are left here (myself included) all think they are fairly
>>> knowledgeable, so we don't have a lot to say if nobody else asks
>>> questions.
>>
>>OK, I'll try a question.
>>
>>I had a colony of Bird's Nest coral (Pocillopora damicornis):
>> http://reef.geddis.org/a/Bird's%20Nest%20Coral/
>>In the last couple of days, I got that so-called "rapid tissue necrosis" (RTN).
>>
>>A small piece of the coral starts to die off, turning into a uniform brown
>>jelly, leaving behind a bleached white skeleton. The infection, or whatever
>>it is, spreads rapidly, killing inches worth in a few hours.
>>
>>It seems it can be "fixed" by quickly pruning all the infected parts, along
>>with a buffer of still-healthy coral. Anything that hasn't yet gotten touched
>>may well survive. It doesn't seem to travel through the water column.
>>
>>But on the other hand, any piece of the coral that has been touched by an
>>infected piece, starts dying off within a few hours (and continues to spread).
>>It does seem species-specific: killed off all of my (connected) bird's nest,
>>but didn't seem to bother any other nearby corals.
>>
>>Anyone have advice or suggestions? This happened to a large colony of mine
>>before, as you can see from the photos at the link above in Sept 2006.
>>I regrew the colony over the last six months, to larger than it had been
>>before. But just lost it all in the last couple of days.
>>
>>Why does this start? Does the colony just get too big, and maybe I don't have
>>enough water motion to clean away toxins from the center? I once lost a large
>>plate coral (Montipora capriconis)
>> http://reef.geddis.org/a/Plate%20Coral/
>>in much the same way.
>>
>>One could always just generally suspect "water quality", but I'm not
>>stressing the tank with my bioload, and everything else is doing great. For
>>that matter, the colonies that die all look great right before the few days
>>of encroaching terminal death kill them. (And actually the extremities
>>continue to look good, until the brown jelly death infection crawls up the
>>branches to get to the ends and kill them too.)
>>
>>Very frustating, a year of growth gone in a day or two.
>>
>>Comments appreciated.
>>
>> -- Don
>>__________________________________________________ _____________________________
>>Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/
>>"I think," said Christopher Robin, "that we ought to eat all our provisions
>>now, so we won't have so much to carry." -- A. A. Milne
>
>Don,
>
>I am sorry to hear of your losses. I have recently read an article
>where a very experienced writer said that freshwater dips were an
>appropriate treatment, as long as they were carried as soon as the
>condition was recognized. Tomorrow, I will try to find out where the
>article appeared.
>
>Regards, Fishnut.

Hello Don,

In a book, "Hard Corals" by Jim Fatherree, page 33, he suggests that a
5 minute dip in declorinated freshwater will stress the coral
terribly, but as it is most likely to die very shortly, it may save
it. But the dip "will kill all of the protozoan attackers".

You also need to be very careful how you dispose of the water, as it
may be highly contagious. Be sure to sterilize all equipment used.

Regards, Fishnut

[Wayne Sallee]

wrote on 7/27/2007 6:04 PM:
> Be sure to sterilize all equipment used.
>
It's not that big of a threat. Just rinse it off,
and let it dry out.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets

[Don Geddis]

wrote on Fri, 27 Jul 2007:
> In a book, "Hard Corals" by Jim Fatherree, page 33, he suggests that a
> 5 minute dip in declorinated freshwater will stress the coral
> terribly, but as it is most likely to die very shortly, it may save
> it. But the dip "will kill all of the protozoan attackers".

Yeah, not a bad idea. My own recent coral was a huge colony ("loaf of bread"
sized), attached to some large base/live rock all along the bottom. It would
have been quite a trick to try to dismantle the live rock cliff, extract
that one coral, and give it a freshwater dip.

But I'll admit, I didn't even think of it. Perhaps next time...

-- Don
__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/
Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake when
you make it again. -- F. P. Jones

[ttomjoly]

Start a small piece of coral die off and become a uniform brown Jelly, leaving a bleached skeleton. Infection, or any It spread rapidly, resulting in inches worth a few hours.