live food for africans?

[Zimm44]

I know that Africans of Lake Malawi should eat a diet of predominantly alga or
vegetable based food to avoid bloat. My question is whether anyone has
suggestions or advice on feeding blood worms and other live foods to them as a
supplement/conditioning food? Any advice? I just bought some frozen blood
worms. My frontosas in the other tank love them. Are they good for Mbuna?

[[email protected]]

On 06 Aug 2003 21:28:16 GMT, (Zimm44) wrote:

>I know that Africans of Lake Malawi should eat a diet of predominantly alga or
>vegetable based food to avoid bloat. My question is whether anyone has
>suggestions or advice on feeding blood worms and other live foods to them as a
>supplement/conditioning food? Any advice? I just bought some frozen blood
>worms. My frontosas in the other tank love them. Are they good for Mbuna?

Most of the common Lake Malawi cichlids are Mbuna and most Mbuna are
algae eater. As such they should be fed on algae or other vegetable
foods. However, some Mbuna are not algae eaters and many Malawi other
than Mbuna have totally different food requirements. Malawi cichlids
vary from microplankton eaters to super efficient predators and so a
general diet does not exist.

Frontosas will do well on pellets with some fresh live food but the
amount of blood worm should be restricted. Adult frontosa would eat
blood worm by the pound if they could get it but it's not a good diet.


Steve

--
EasyNN-plus. The easy way to build neural networks.
Build networks from numeric, text and image files.
http://www.easynn.com

[Zimm44]

Thanks Steve. I hear ya on the predator thing. My comprecisseps are in constant
lunge for the smaller fish in the Malawi tank. It's scary to watch their
stealth and speed. Anyway is there a type of live food you would suggest as a
treat or conditioning food instead of blood worms? Any tricks to encourage
breeding?

Zim

[Roger Sleet]

In article >,
(Zimm44) wrote:

> I know that Africans of Lake Malawi should eat a diet of predominantly
> alga or
> vegetable based food to avoid bloat. My question is whether anyone has
> suggestions or advice on feeding blood worms and other live foods to
> them as a
> supplement/conditioning food? Any advice? I just bought some frozen
> blood
> worms. My frontosas in the other tank love them. Are they good for
> Mbuna?
>

I thought this was an interesting debate until I saw the BBC/Someone* Wild
Africa program "Lakes and Rivers" which showed the Midge hatch over Lake
Malawi. Quick pan to under water - everything with fins going frantic
eating the blood worm pupae as they rose to the surface. Various
Pseudotropheus & Labeotrophues in there with the rest.

I've also seen a Scientific article on stomach content analysis of wild
caught Mbuna, lots of Algae, but lots of insect larvae too. The author
suspected that the insect larvae were picked up with the algae, rather
than separate from it.

So nature says it's OK. The mistake people make is Cichlid = Carnivore so
meaty diet, whereas for the Mbuna have a mostly vegetable diet. Nothing
wrong with adding a few bloodworm etc though.

* Something was a US co. might have been Discovery Channel

Roger Sleet
Roger's Aquatic Pages http://www.sleet.plus.com

[Cichlidiot]

Racf > wrote:

> I rather doubt that they feed ONLY on algae. I imagine they may feed
> mostly on algae due to lack of anything else..... Oscars will eat
> algae, if thats all there is to eat... I have read many times over the
> years that high protein diets will kill Mbunas, but I never really
> believed it. I guess its possible...I just never bought in to it. Fish
> will eat about anything they can get...in the wild or in the tank....In
> the wild specialization would tend to favor certain species in certain
> situations....If all there was to eat was buffalo chips, I imagine
> anyone that liked them woud do quite well....while the rest of us would
> end up eating each other...

You obviously aren't a biologist otherwise you'd know how preposterous the
claim that they eat algae because of a "lack of anything else" is. The
algae eating cichlids of the rift lakes are morphologically and
physiologically adapted for the primary ingestion of algae.

The dentition of the upper and lower jaws has adapted to a form more
suitable for scraping algae off rocks than catching prey, usually bi- or
tri-cuspid teeth. The pharyngeal jaw apparatus is similarly evolved for
the processing of algae matter (as opposed to fish or snails). If you can
find it, "The Cichlid Fishes of the Great Lakes of Africa" by Fryer and
Iles is an old, but good reference on the morphology of rift lake
cichlids. It has illustrations that will show the differences in jaw
structures as well as a whole chapter explaining how the various feeding
mechanisms have evolved specialized dentition for that feeding mechanism.
That chapter also mentions how some algae eaters take specialized care to
exclude even accidently eating invertebrates with its algae.

The mbuna also have an intestinal tract adapted to digest primarily
vegetable matter. This means the tract is long. The occasional
invertebrate inadvertantly caught with the algae will not upset the
intestinal tract to a great deal, but a primarily meat diet will. Just
because the fish will eat it when presented with the food doesn't mean
they can digest it. They are not carnivores nor omnivores. They are
herbavores. You must feed them a diet appropriate to their physiology and
morphology if you expect them to live a long and healthy life.

[Racf]

"Cichlidiot" > wrote in message
...
> Racf > wrote:
>
> > I rather doubt that they feed ONLY on algae. I imagine they may
feed
> > mostly on algae due to lack of anything else..... Oscars will eat
> > algae, if thats all there is to eat... I have read many times over
the
> > years that high protein diets will kill Mbunas, but I never really
> > believed it. I guess its possible...I just never bought in to it.
Fish
> > will eat about anything they can get...in the wild or in the
tank....In
> > the wild specialization would tend to favor certain species in
certain
> > situations....If all there was to eat was buffalo chips, I imagine
> > anyone that liked them woud do quite well....while the rest of us
would
> > end up eating each other...
>
> You obviously aren't a biologist otherwise you'd know how preposterous
the
> claim that they eat algae because of a "lack of anything else" is. The
> algae eating cichlids of the rift lakes are morphologically and
> physiologically adapted for the primary ingestion of algae.
>
> The dentition of the upper and lower jaws has adapted to a form more
> suitable for scraping algae off rocks than catching prey, usually bi-
or
> tri-cuspid teeth. The pharyngeal jaw apparatus is similarly evolved
for
> the processing of algae matter (as opposed to fish or snails). If you
can
> find it, "The Cichlid Fishes of the Great Lakes of Africa" by Fryer
and
> Iles is an old, but good reference on the morphology of rift lake
> cichlids. It has illustrations that will show the differences in jaw
> structures as well as a whole chapter explaining how the various
feeding
> mechanisms have evolved specialized dentition for that feeding
mechanism.
> That chapter also mentions how some algae eaters take specialized care
to
> exclude even accidently eating invertebrates with its algae.
>
> The mbuna also have an intestinal tract adapted to digest primarily
> vegetable matter. This means the tract is long. The occasional
> invertebrate inadvertantly caught with the algae will not upset the
> intestinal tract to a great deal, but a primarily meat diet will. Just
> because the fish will eat it when presented with the food doesn't mean
> they can digest it. They are not carnivores nor omnivores. They are
> herbavores. You must feed them a diet appropriate to their physiology
and
> morphology if you expect them to live a long and healthy life.

I hear what your saying. I still must stick with what I said,
though.....In an algae only food to eat scenario, they would probably
out compete the other fish....I imagine that's what drove their special
qualities.....but they will eat what they can get regardless....As do
most critters...some foods are preferred over others.... I do not
believe its a fact that a Mbuna cannot digest anything but algae....I am
not even aware of another herbivore that is so limited, but I am aware
of many carnivores that would do poorly eating grass and brush.
Breaking down fats is something even us humans have a bit of trouble
with....but proteins and carbs.....I do not think so.

[Bchbound]

Isn't feeding live bait a way of introducing bacteria etc into the tank.
Seems like the cons outway the pros? Fish can thrive on dried food so why
mess with what works? I put new fish in an isolation tank before risking
exposing my big tank to disease. Why throw live food in? Just wondering?

In article >,
says...
> In article >,
> (Zimm44) wrote:
>
> > I know that Africans of Lake Malawi should eat a diet of predominantly
> > alga or
> > vegetable based food to avoid bloat. My question is whether anyone has
> > suggestions or advice on feeding blood worms and other live foods to
> > them as a
> > supplement/conditioning food? Any advice? I just bought some frozen
> > blood
> > worms. My frontosas in the other tank love them. Are they good for
> > Mbuna?
> >
>
> I thought this was an interesting debate until I saw the BBC/Someone* Wild
> Africa program "Lakes and Rivers" which showed the Midge hatch over Lake
> Malawi. Quick pan to under water - everything with fins going frantic
> eating the blood worm pupae as they rose to the surface. Various
> Pseudotropheus & Labeotrophues in there with the rest.
>
> I've also seen a Scientific article on stomach content analysis of wild
> caught Mbuna, lots of Algae, but lots of insect larvae too. The author
> suspected that the insect larvae were picked up with the algae, rather
> than separate from it.
>
> So nature says it's OK. The mistake people make is Cichlid = Carnivore so
> meaty diet, whereas for the Mbuna have a mostly vegetable diet. Nothing
> wrong with adding a few bloodworm etc though.
>
> * Something was a US co. might have been Discovery Channel
>
> Roger Sleet
> Roger's Aquatic Pages http://www.sleet.plus.com
>

[Roger Sleet]

In article >,
(Bchbound) wrote:

> Isn't feeding live bait a way of introducing bacteria etc into the
> tank. Seems like the cons outway the pros? Fish can thrive on dried
> food so why mess with what works? I put new fish in an isolation tank
> before risking exposing my big tank to disease. Why throw live food in?
> Just wondering?

Breathing near the tank is a way of introducing bacteria.

You only deed to worry about obligate pathogens. So long as the live food
doesn't come from anywhere that contains live fish, it can contain no
obligate fish pathogens. Having said that I occasionally remove midge
larvae from the Koi pond to give to my tropicals, so far without dire
effects.

Roger Sleet
Roger's Aquatic Pages http://www.sleet.plus.com

[Racf]

"Bchbound" > wrote in message
...
> Isn't feeding live bait a way of introducing bacteria etc into the
tank.
> Seems like the cons outway the pros? Fish can thrive on dried food so
why
> mess with what works? I put new fish in an isolation tank before
risking
> exposing my big tank to disease. Why throw live food in? Just
wondering?

Yes, in many live foods the risk of parasites can be higher than with
many of the other options. These days the only live food I use with any
regularity is Blackworms I get from California. I order a pound at a
time and keep them in a dedicated refridgerator (my kid left his little
one behind).

Here is a link to a site where you can read up on it:

http://www.aquaticfoods.com/worms.html

I am not affiliated with this site.


>
> In article >,
> says...
> > In article >,

> > (Zimm44) wrote:
> >
> > > I know that Africans of Lake Malawi should eat a diet of
predominantly
> > > alga or
> > > vegetable based food to avoid bloat. My question is whether anyone
has
> > > suggestions or advice on feeding blood worms and other live foods
to
> > > them as a
> > > supplement/conditioning food? Any advice? I just bought some
frozen
> > > blood
> > > worms. My frontosas in the other tank love them. Are they good for
> > > Mbuna?
> > >
> >
> > I thought this was an interesting debate until I saw the
BBC/Someone* Wild
> > Africa program "Lakes and Rivers" which showed the Midge hatch over
Lake
> > Malawi. Quick pan to under water - everything with fins going
frantic
> > eating the blood worm pupae as they rose to the surface. Various
> > Pseudotropheus & Labeotrophues in there with the rest.
> >
> > I've also seen a Scientific article on stomach content analysis of
wild
> > caught Mbuna, lots of Algae, but lots of insect larvae too. The
author
> > suspected that the insect larvae were picked up with the algae,
rather
> > than separate from it.
> >
> > So nature says it's OK. The mistake people make is Cichlid =
Carnivore so
> > meaty diet, whereas for the Mbuna have a mostly vegetable diet.
Nothing
> > wrong with adding a few bloodworm etc though.
> >
> > * Something was a US co. might have been Discovery Channel
> >
> > Roger Sleet
> > Roger's Aquatic Pages http://www.sleet.plus.com
> >

[Racf]

"Cichlidiot" > wrote in message
...
> Racf > wrote:
>
> > I hear what your saying. I still must stick with what I said,
> > though.....In an algae only food to eat scenario, they would
probably
> > out compete the other fish....I imagine that's what drove their
special
> > qualities.....but they will eat what they can get regardless....As
do
> > most critters...some foods are preferred over others.... I do not
> > believe its a fact that a Mbuna cannot digest anything but
algae....I am
> > not even aware of another herbivore that is so limited, but I am
aware
> > of many carnivores that would do poorly eating grass and brush.
> > Breaking down fats is something even us humans have a bit of trouble
> > with....but proteins and carbs.....I do not think so.
>
> And where is your biology degree? (And before you ask the same of me,
mine
> is on the wall behind me right now). You obviously have never taken a
> physiology or morphology course. Otherwise you'd know about things
like
> digestive enzymes and intestinal tracts that affect what a creature is
> able to eat. Here's a very simple example for you: lactose intolerance
in
> humans. This is primarily due to the lack of the digestive enzyme
lactase
> (although in some it is actually a true allergy to lactose or a
reaction
> to other components in cow-derived dairy products). This lack of
lactase
> causes intestinal discomfort, gas and bloating because the lactose
cannot
> be digested.
>
> If a creature does not have the digestive enzymes to break down a
complex
> structure (which proteins are BTW) into its more simple components
(such
> as simple sugars or amino acids), then it will have issues eating
> something which contains a high quantity of that complex structure.
> Everything I've read about mbuna suggests that they do not have the
> capacity (ie the digestive enzymes and so on) to live on a diet
consisting
> of mostly carnivorous foods without some serious digestive
side-effects,
> such as bloat. The occasional intake may be tolerated, but not a
constant
> diet of such food.
>
> Oh, and for not believing other herbivores are so limited, there are
> other fish with similar algae eating habits. Several scientific
studies
> are underway with just the primary goal of gaining even more insight
into
> the physiology of the digestive tracts of fish that are herbivores.
For
> example, read this faculty page for a professor at Fullerton:
>
> http://stromboli.fullerton.edu/mhorn.html
>
> It is of course brief, but shows that there are other fish that are
> similarly algae eating herbivores. In the case of that professor, his
> research focuses on several marine herbivores. That is also just one
> example that popped up on a Google search for research in this field.
>
> Now, in the future, if you wish to make such claims, please do not
base it
> on "personal belief". Provide some sound scientific research to back
it
> up. Right now, most of the scientific knowledge indicate that algae
> eating mbuna should be fed an herbivorous diet. Perhaps you have done
an
> experiment or two comparing the effects of a carnivorous diet vs a
> herbivorous diet on these mbuna fishes that you'd care to share?

It started as a simple question about feeding larvae/worms to a Mbuna.
I see nothing wrong with a varied diet....and really that's what its all
about. I believe this is part of their natural diet, anyway....

Nobody is suggesting we feed cheese, milk, hamburger, chicken, and ham
to them. I am not buying your cannot digest assertions in this
case....and bloat issues occur naturally in just about any critter with
the right circumstances, regardless of the food type...

I could be wrong, but just do not think so in this case. Besides, its
well known that herbivores rarely get all their required nutrients from
merely plants...Even Chimps eat monkeys once in a while...

[Craig Brye]

I have a degree in Business Management, which makes me absolutely worthless
in this dialogue. I do, however, have Mbuna. I feed these a variety of
foods including algae wafers, plankton, blood worms, flakes etc. I've never
had any troubles and my fish are looking and acting VERY healthy.

--
Craig Brye
University of Phoenix Online

"Cichlidiot" > wrote in message
...
> Racf > wrote:
>
> > I hear what your saying. I still must stick with what I said,
> > though.....In an algae only food to eat scenario, they would probably
> > out compete the other fish....I imagine that's what drove their special
> > qualities.....but they will eat what they can get regardless....As do
> > most critters...some foods are preferred over others.... I do not
> > believe its a fact that a Mbuna cannot digest anything but algae....I am
> > not even aware of another herbivore that is so limited, but I am aware
> > of many carnivores that would do poorly eating grass and brush.
> > Breaking down fats is something even us humans have a bit of trouble
> > with....but proteins and carbs.....I do not think so.
>
> And where is your biology degree? (And before you ask the same of me, mine
> is on the wall behind me right now). You obviously have never taken a
> physiology or morphology course. Otherwise you'd know about things like
> digestive enzymes and intestinal tracts that affect what a creature is
> able to eat. Here's a very simple example for you: lactose intolerance in
> humans. This is primarily due to the lack of the digestive enzyme lactase
> (although in some it is actually a true allergy to lactose or a reaction
> to other components in cow-derived dairy products). This lack of lactase
> causes intestinal discomfort, gas and bloating because the lactose cannot
> be digested.
>
> If a creature does not have the digestive enzymes to break down a complex
> structure (which proteins are BTW) into its more simple components (such
> as simple sugars or amino acids), then it will have issues eating
> something which contains a high quantity of that complex structure.
> Everything I've read about mbuna suggests that they do not have the
> capacity (ie the digestive enzymes and so on) to live on a diet consisting
> of mostly carnivorous foods without some serious digestive side-effects,
> such as bloat. The occasional intake may be tolerated, but not a constant
> diet of such food.
>
> Oh, and for not believing other herbivores are so limited, there are
> other fish with similar algae eating habits. Several scientific studies
> are underway with just the primary goal of gaining even more insight into
> the physiology of the digestive tracts of fish that are herbivores. For
> example, read this faculty page for a professor at Fullerton:
>
> http://stromboli.fullerton.edu/mhorn.html
>
> It is of course brief, but shows that there are other fish that are
> similarly algae eating herbivores. In the case of that professor, his
> research focuses on several marine herbivores. That is also just one
> example that popped up on a Google search for research in this field.
>
> Now, in the future, if you wish to make such claims, please do not base it
> on "personal belief". Provide some sound scientific research to back it
> up. Right now, most of the scientific knowledge indicate that algae
> eating mbuna should be fed an herbivorous diet. Perhaps you have done an
> experiment or two comparing the effects of a carnivorous diet vs a
> herbivorous diet on these mbuna fishes that you'd care to share?

[The Madd Hatter]

Don't change a thing then! In my experience, if it ain't broke, don't fix
it!

I've had much the same experience too btw.. I feed them something different
everyday and make sure the temperatures are stable...
"Craig Brye" > wrote in message
...
> I have a degree in Business Management, which makes me absolutely
worthless
> in this dialogue. I do, however, have Mbuna. I feed these a variety of
> foods including algae wafers, plankton, blood worms, flakes etc. I've
never
> had any troubles and my fish are looking and acting VERY healthy.
>
> --
> Craig Brye
> University of Phoenix Online
>
> "Cichlidiot" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Racf > wrote:
> >
> > > I hear what your saying. I still must stick with what I said,
> > > though.....In an algae only food to eat scenario, they would probably
> > > out compete the other fish....I imagine that's what drove their
special
> > > qualities.....but they will eat what they can get regardless....As do
> > > most critters...some foods are preferred over others.... I do not
> > > believe its a fact that a Mbuna cannot digest anything but algae....I
am
> > > not even aware of another herbivore that is so limited, but I am aware
> > > of many carnivores that would do poorly eating grass and brush.
> > > Breaking down fats is something even us humans have a bit of trouble
> > > with....but proteins and carbs.....I do not think so.
> >
> > And where is your biology degree? (And before you ask the same of me,
mine
> > is on the wall behind me right now). You obviously have never taken a
> > physiology or morphology course. Otherwise you'd know about things like
> > digestive enzymes and intestinal tracts that affect what a creature is
> > able to eat. Here's a very simple example for you: lactose intolerance
in
> > humans. This is primarily due to the lack of the digestive enzyme
lactase
> > (although in some it is actually a true allergy to lactose or a reaction
> > to other components in cow-derived dairy products). This lack of lactase
> > causes intestinal discomfort, gas and bloating because the lactose
cannot
> > be digested.
> >
> > If a creature does not have the digestive enzymes to break down a
complex
> > structure (which proteins are BTW) into its more simple components (such
> > as simple sugars or amino acids), then it will have issues eating
> > something which contains a high quantity of that complex structure.
> > Everything I've read about mbuna suggests that they do not have the
> > capacity (ie the digestive enzymes and so on) to live on a diet
consisting
> > of mostly carnivorous foods without some serious digestive side-effects,
> > such as bloat. The occasional intake may be tolerated, but not a
constant
> > diet of such food.
> >
> > Oh, and for not believing other herbivores are so limited, there are
> > other fish with similar algae eating habits. Several scientific studies
> > are underway with just the primary goal of gaining even more insight
into
> > the physiology of the digestive tracts of fish that are herbivores. For
> > example, read this faculty page for a professor at Fullerton:
> >
> > http://stromboli.fullerton.edu/mhorn.html
> >
> > It is of course brief, but shows that there are other fish that are
> > similarly algae eating herbivores. In the case of that professor, his
> > research focuses on several marine herbivores. That is also just one
> > example that popped up on a Google search for research in this field.
> >
> > Now, in the future, if you wish to make such claims, please do not base
it
> > on "personal belief". Provide some sound scientific research to back it
> > up. Right now, most of the scientific knowledge indicate that algae
> > eating mbuna should be fed an herbivorous diet. Perhaps you have done an
> > experiment or two comparing the effects of a carnivorous diet vs a
> > herbivorous diet on these mbuna fishes that you'd care to share?
>
>

[Randy PhxVet]

when you post a question like the one you posted the so called experts
come crawling out of the cracks to give advice.

i have been keeping fish for over 30 years and have had a small animal
practice for 20 years. i do know a little about fish and i will tell
you that giving your fish a live treat of brine shrimp or chopped worms
(or whatever) is O.K. i treat my 240 gallon malawi tank about once
every other week with live brine shrimp. in the wild they eat other
things besides algae. i have been to africa twice and actually watched
the fish in their natural habitat.

take everything you read here with a grain of salt.......

[Cichlidiot]

Randy PhxVet > wrote:
> i have been keeping fish for over 30 years and have had a small animal
> practice for 20 years. i do know a little about fish and i will tell
> you that giving your fish a live treat of brine shrimp or chopped worms
> (or whatever) is O.K. i treat my 240 gallon malawi tank about once
> every other week with live brine shrimp. in the wild they eat other
> things besides algae. i have been to africa twice and actually watched
> the fish in their natural habitat.

I feel the need to clarify as I feel you're directing this post to me. If
you re-read my posts, you will note that I often said that occasional
ingestion of insects or the like should not cause issue as in the wild
these are occasionally eaten along with the algae. My posts were in
response to another who seemed to be advocating a high protein/fat diet
instead of a primarily herbivorous diet, which I do not feel would be in
the best interest of the fish. I am an advocate of trying to replicate the
feeding habits and diet that the fish would have in the wild. In the case
of algae eaters, this would mean a herbivorous diet with the occasional
"treat" of things like brine shrimp or daphnia would most replicate their
natural diet. I'd also say treats of algae covered rocks would be welcome
as then they could practice their feeding habits as well. Since the pet
food industry makes it easy to replicate herbivorous diets with various
spirulina products and so on, I don't see any reason not to do it (as
opposed to say a mollusc eating fish, where it might be difficult to find
sufficient snails/molluscs to feed without breaking the bank, so one has
to settle for a flake food substitute not really based on a mollusc
eater's wild diet).

[Racf]

"Cichlidiot" > wrote in message
...
> Randy PhxVet > wrote:
> > i have been keeping fish for over 30 years and have had a small
animal
> > practice for 20 years. i do know a little about fish and i will
tell
> > you that giving your fish a live treat of brine shrimp or chopped
worms
> > (or whatever) is O.K. i treat my 240 gallon malawi tank about once
> > every other week with live brine shrimp. in the wild they eat other
> > things besides algae. i have been to africa twice and actually
watched
> > the fish in their natural habitat.
>
> I feel the need to clarify as I feel you're directing this post to me.
If
> you re-read my posts, you will note that I often said that occasional
> ingestion of insects or the like should not cause issue as in the wild
> these are occasionally eaten along with the algae. My posts were in
> response to another who seemed to be advocating a high protein/fat
diet
> instead of a primarily herbivorous diet, which I do not feel would be
in
> the best interest of the fish. I am an advocate of trying to replicate
the
> feeding habits and diet that the fish would have in the wild. In the
case
> of algae eaters, this would mean a herbivorous diet with the
occasional
> "treat" of things like brine shrimp or daphnia would most replicate
their
> natural diet. I'd also say treats of algae covered rocks would be
welcome
> as then they could practice their feeding habits as well. Since the
pet
> food industry makes it easy to replicate herbivorous diets with
various
> spirulina products and so on, I don't see any reason not to do it (as
> opposed to say a mollusc eating fish, where it might be difficult to
find
> sufficient snails/molluscs to feed without breaking the bank, so one
has
> to settle for a flake food substitute not really based on a mollusc
> eater's wild diet).

I do not recall anyone advocating a high protein/fat diet at all. I do
recall folks advocating a herbivore only diet, which is probably not at
all a factual diet in the wild. Seems like you were a cheerleader for
the latter.

Glad to see you see the light now...

[Cichlidiot]

Racf > wrote:

> I do not recall anyone advocating a high protein/fat diet at all. I do
> recall folks advocating a herbivore only diet, which is probably not at
> all a factual diet in the wild. Seems like you were a cheerleader for
> the latter.

> Glad to see you see the light now...

Umm... what world were you reading my posts in? Apparently not the same
one that I wrote it in. For that matter, do we forget our own words?
Here's a refresher course. The following is the line from your post that
motivated me to reply:

Racf wrote:
> If all there was to eat was buffalo chips, I imagine
> anyone that liked them woud do quite well

This prompted me to reply because such a diet is carnivorous and high in
fat/protein. While I recognize you were not being literal about feeding
fish buffalo chips, it still seemed to say that a carnivorous diet was
fine and dandy for carnivore. That is why I had quite substantial replies
about the biology of the fish, but never did I say it had to be algae and
nothing else. In case you need a refresher, here's some snippets from my
posts. From my first post:

Cichlidiot wrote:
> The occasional invertebrate inadvertantly caught with the algae will
> not upset the intestinal tract to a great deal, but a primarily meat
> diet will.

And from my second post:

Cichlidiot wrote:
> Everything I've read about mbuna suggests that they do not have the
> capacity (ie the digestive enzymes and so on) to live on a diet
> consisting of mostly carnivorous foods without some serious digestive
> side-effects, such as bloat. The occasional intake may be tolerated,
> but not a constant diet of such food.

So as you can see from those snippets, both of my posts on this thread
said it was fine for the OCCASIONAL introduction of non-herbivorous foods.
I was never a "cheerleader" for only feeding them algae as you seem to
think. I have always "seen the light" when it comes to the fact that they
will intake such foods on occasion in the wild. My point was while it is
fine to feed such foods occasionally, the bulk of the diet should be
herbivorous since this replicates their natural diet. My motivation was to
be a counterbalance to your posts which seemed to advocate a carnivorous
diet for a fish is an herbivore.

Next time get your facts straight before you post such a gloating post as
this one.

[Racf]

"Cichlidiot" > wrote in message
...
> Racf > wrote:
>
> > I do not recall anyone advocating a high protein/fat diet at all. I
do
> > recall folks advocating a herbivore only diet, which is probably not
at
> > all a factual diet in the wild. Seems like you were a cheerleader
for
> > the latter.
>
> > Glad to see you see the light now...
>
> Umm... what world were you reading my posts in? Apparently not the
same
> one that I wrote it in. For that matter, do we forget our own words?
> Here's a refresher course. The following is the line from your post
that
> motivated me to reply:
>
> Racf wrote:
> > If all there was to eat was buffalo chips, I imagine
> > anyone that liked them woud do quite well
>
> This prompted me to reply because such a diet is carnivorous and high
in
> fat/protein. While I recognize you were not being literal about
feeding
> fish buffalo chips, it still seemed to say that a carnivorous diet was
> fine and dandy for carnivore. That is why I had quite substantial
replies
> about the biology of the fish, but never did I say it had to be algae
and
> nothing else. In case you need a refresher, here's some snippets from
my
> posts. From my first post:
>
> Cichlidiot wrote:
> > The occasional invertebrate inadvertantly caught with the algae will
> > not upset the intestinal tract to a great deal, but a primarily meat
> > diet will.
>
> And from my second post:
>
> Cichlidiot wrote:
> > Everything I've read about mbuna suggests that they do not have the
> > capacity (ie the digestive enzymes and so on) to live on a diet
> > consisting of mostly carnivorous foods without some serious
digestive
> > side-effects, such as bloat. The occasional intake may be tolerated,
> > but not a constant diet of such food.
>
> So as you can see from those snippets, both of my posts on this thread
> said it was fine for the OCCASIONAL introduction of non-herbivorous
foods.
> I was never a "cheerleader" for only feeding them algae as you seem to
> think. I have always "seen the light" when it comes to the fact that
they
> will intake such foods on occasion in the wild. My point was while it
is
> fine to feed such foods occasionally, the bulk of the diet should be
> herbivorous since this replicates their natural diet. My motivation
was to
> be a counterbalance to your posts which seemed to advocate a
carnivorous
> diet for a fish is an herbivore.
>
> Next time get your facts straight before you post such a gloating post
as
> this one.

Actually, the buffalo chips reference was for people....

I believe there have been quite a number of posts that balance the
"herbivore" only myth that has been so pervasive for so long. Here is
my original response on this subject in case you forgot:

"I imagine the African's are not that much difference than their North
and South American cousins. They pretty much eat whatever they can
get.....with last choice going to Algae. I would only suggest a varied
diet, and it looks like that's what you are doing."

Save your "Bloat" for another day..

[fentorydekson]

Lots of the Mbuna cichlids in Lake Malawi is the most Mbuna algae eater. Therefore, they should be fed on algae or other plants food. However, some Mbuna do not eat algae and many other Malawi mbuna have totally different than the demand for food.