Re: LFS owners, please read.....

[~Vicki ~]

I am so sorry to hear about your problem with your LFS. Danville is a
small area tho and I guess it does not have the competition that Hampton
Roads does for business. Around here there are so many pet shops that
they even take each others coupons. Once yours starts loosing enough
business they will change their policies.

Don't give up on them altogether there are lots of folks who know so
much and don't mind talking to ya.

Vicki

[bassett]

I would suggest that you read the mans post again, Does this sound like
someone, who has just walked in of the street.

Quote,, I had some africans that had grown to adult size and were
attempting
> to kill each other. I separated the adult males and bagged up one of
> each to take back to my LFS. I would never have bought 2 males but
> with africans it is often impossible to sex them when they are small.
> These were beautiful healthy fish. 3 of the 4 fish had actually been
> purchased from the same LFS that I was taking them back to. I had
> purchased several hundred dollars of fish from this LFS.

Unquote..

It would seem that the man was a regular customer at the store. Fish
sales work
both ways, The hobbyist buys fish from his local store, and the store
obtains fish from hobbyists.. But, The fish store is stuck in one place,
and the Hobbyist can sell anywhere.

The only thing our friendly poster forgot to do was name the LFS, Name
Address
phone number, and the type of fish he used to stock.
..
In Oz you pull a stunt like that and Buddy Boy, your out of Business.

bassett

Amateur > wrote in message >
> I've read this post a couple times and wasn't going to respond, but.....
> I'd have to side with the LFS on this occassion. The original post said
the LFS said they don't take trade-ins. The fish
> in question were bought as juveniles then were returned as adults. This
creates a tough situation for the LFS. Where do
> you put fish that people bring in and drop off? What if the fish isn't
healthy? How would you know? It could potentially
> contaminate hundreds of dollars of stock. Most good shops I know don't
take fish unless it's from a reputable
> distributor or from a reputable breeder. And they only take back fish if
it's within four or less days from purchase.
> This makes good business sense and makes it less risky for me to buy fish
from them. I always know what I'm getting this
> way.
> AmateurCichlids
> www.amateurcichlids.com
>
>

[Josh]

yes, that is pretty true and a good reason, I worked in a LFS and sometimes
we just couldnt take in fish, it was impossible to do... One guy was
despirate and asked us why we had a few tanks empty then, simple answer, we
just cleared em out this morning and transfered those fish to other tanks to
have a place for our shipment that was coming in that day. We definatly
tried to take in fish that were unwanted but most people had the sense to
call us and talk to the supervisor for that section before bringing it in.
Adn to think you should get your full price back or more for those fish?
That would be like taking a car on lease back to the dealer and telling them
to pay you for it... yes some fish could be worth more noe that they have
growen, but if you really cared about your fish you would be willing to give
them back at no price to spare the others in your tank. ya, i jsut couldnt
take it anymore and had to reply also like amateur, this is jsut my 2 cents
"Amateur" > wrote in message
gy.com...
>
> I've read this post a couple times and wasn't going to respond, but.....
> I'd have to side with the LFS on this occassion. The original post said
the LFS said they don't take trade-ins. The fish
> in question were bought as juveniles then were returned as adults. This
creates a tough situation for the LFS. Where do
> you put fish that people bring in and drop off? What if the fish isn't
healthy? How would you know? It could potentially
> contaminate hundreds of dollars of stock. Most good shops I know don't
take fish unless it's from a reputable
> distributor or from a reputable breeder. And they only take back fish if
it's within four or less days from purchase.
> This makes good business sense and makes it less risky for me to buy fish
from them. I always know what I'm getting this
> way.
> AmateurCichlids
> www.amateurcichlids.com
>
>

[Mephistopheles]

Hello Amateur,

I must strongly disagree with you on this one. Mid-posting.

Meph

"Amateur" > wrote in
gy.com:

>
> I've read this post a couple times and wasn't going to respond,
> but..... I'd have to side with the LFS on this occassion. The original
> post said the LFS said they don't take trade-ins. The fish in question
> were bought as juveniles then were returned as adults. This creates a
> tough situation for the LFS.

> Where do you put fish that people bring
> in and drop off?

Uh, in fish tanks? (If an LFS does not have a quarantine tank available,
there is something seriously wrong with that LFS). My LFS has never had
any problem taking in the fish I return to it.

> What if the fish isn't healthy?

The original poster stated that the fish were the picture of health.

> How would you know?

Just observing the appearance and behavior of the fish reveals the
presence of most fish diseases. Moreover, the original poster stated
that he was a regular customer there who was presumably known as a
responsible aquarist. (Are you sure you read that post "a couple
times"?)

> It could potentially contaminate hundreds of dollars of stock. Most
> good shops I know don't take fish unless it's from a reputable
> distributor or from a reputable breeder.

Any fish from a "reputable distributor" is potentially diseased. That is
why truly good fish shops quarantine their fish for at least a week
before offering them for sale. (Though I suppose this might be done at
the distributor level as well). In any event, fish you purchase in a
fish store or receive from a distributor, are much more likely to be
diseased, in my opinion, than fish from a hobbyist for the simple reason
that the fish in the store have had recent exposure to many more fish
than the fish from a hobbyist's tank. That is why it is usually good
practice to quarantine fish you purchase from the store to begin with.

>And they only take back fish
> if it's within four or less days from purchase.

Many stores limit the amount of refund or credit you receive to recent
purchases. I have no problems with that.

> This makes good
> business sense and makes it less risky for me to buy fish from them.

Sorry, but I believe your statement about risk is wrong, and you have
presented no evidence to support it. I see absolutely no reason to
believe that taking in fish from individual hobbyists presents any more
risk of disease than importing fish from large-scale fish farms in
Florida. Actually, I think the reverse is true. My LFS has a very
liberal return policy -- they have never refused a fish I brought into
them (I only bring in healthy, undamaged fish, by the way). I have also
purchased several fish that other hobbyists have brought in. Those have
been some of my best fish purchases -- and most healthy fish.

> I
> always know what I'm getting this way.

Yes, you know it is a fish you better quarantine because it has recently
been exposed to many other fish, and likely many fish diseases.

> AmateurCichlids
> www.amateurcichlids.com
>
>

[Jim Brown]

This topic seems to have strong proponents for both sides. It may never be
decided.
As far as I know, no store HAS to take back unwanted or unsuitable
purchases. If any store has a return policy, that should be spelled out at
the time of purchase. Obviously, any store wanting repeat customers would
have a return policy that helps maintain customer satisfaction and repeat
business. In this case, the policy changed over a period of time. Things
change, and to boycott a previously satisfactory source because of one
instance is probably not in the customer's best interests long term. Maybe
the store had to re-assess its return policy due to decreasing profits from
business lost to on-line sales of hardgoods.
Searching other avenues for the unwanted fish may be productive. Aquarium
club auctions, bulletin boards in stores, free ads in newspapers. Locally,
the aquarium club council has worked out an adoption plan in co-operation
with the Ministry of Natural Resources. This will hopefully end or reduce
the release of unwanted aquarium fish into the wild.
Just my short stint on the soapbox.

Jim


Mephistopheles > wrote in message
hlink.net...
> Josh,
>
> You make some good points; however, as Bassett pointed out in relation to
> Amateur's post, they do not really apply to the situation described in
> the original post. First, the original poster did not care what price he
> received for the fish. Second, the LFS here had a completely different
> policy from your LFS -- it refused to take back fish under any
> circumstances.
>
> Regards,
> Meph
>
> "Josh" > wrote in
> :
>
> > yes, that is pretty true and a good reason, I worked in a LFS and
> > sometimes we just couldnt take in fish, it was impossible to do... One
> > guy was despirate and asked us why we had a few tanks empty then,
> > simple answer, we just cleared em out this morning and transfered
> > those fish to other tanks to have a place for our shipment that was
> > coming in that day. We definatly tried to take in fish that were
> > unwanted but most people had the sense to call us and talk to the
> > supervisor for that section before bringing it in. Adn to think you
> > should get your full price back or more for those fish? That would be
> > like taking a car on lease back to the dealer and telling them to pay
> > you for it... yes some fish could be worth more noe that they have
> > growen, but if you really cared about your fish you would be willing
> > to give them back at no price to spare the others in your tank. ya, i
> > jsut couldnt take it anymore and had to reply also like amateur, this
> > is jsut my 2 cents "Amateur" > wrote in message
> > gy.com...
> >>
> >> I've read this post a couple times and wasn't going to respond,
> >> but..... I'd have to side with the LFS on this occassion. The
> >> original post said the LFS said they don't take trade-ins. The fish
> >> in question were bought as juveniles then were returned as adults.
> >> This creates a tough situation for the LFS. Where do you put fish
> >> that people bring in and drop off? What if the fish isn't healthy?
> >> How would you know? It could potentially contaminate hundreds of
> >> dollars of stock. Most good shops I know don't take fish unless it's
> >> from a reputable distributor or from a reputable breeder. And they
> >> only take back fish if it's within four or less days from purchase.
> >> This makes good business sense and makes it less risky for me to buy
> >> fish from them. I always know what I'm getting this way.
> >> AmateurCichlids www.amateurcichlids.com
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>

[rmc]

I'm sorry Meph but you make absolutely no sense at all. The fish in
petstores are "For Sale" not "For Rent". If people want to get fish
on a temporary basis and exchange them at will they should contact an
"aquarium service business". According to your way of thinking, if a
petstore has 60 tanks with fish in them they should also have 60 empty
tanks so people can return fish and they should probably have 120 or
more tanks if people can return fish six months after the purchase.
You obviously do not have a clue what retail space rents for and
probably have even less knowledge of business in general. Even a
non-prime retail location costs $12 per square foot annually. That
means a small 2500 sq ft store costs $2500 per month. If a store had
to reserve 25% of that space for returned fish to accommodate your
absurd way of thinking they would not be in business very long and
people would have to look elsewhere and pay more all the products and
livestock. I'm beginning to believe that your true agenda is to stop
all pet sales instead of educating people so they can become
responsible with the pets they choose to get.

If Mike has been keeping fish for 30 years why didn't he know what the
potential was of the fish he was buying, and why would he expect a
store to put a full grown fish killer back into their tanks. If after
30 years, and all the information that is available through books and
the Internet, he can't make better decisions than that he probably
shouldn't even have a fish tank.

We've had this discussion before on this forum where you think it's
appropriate to blame the petstores for any and every act of stupidity
and negligence a person can commit in regards to buying pets and
caring for them. You don't even try to put things in their proper
perspective.....instead you jump up on your soap box and point
fingers. What planet are you from anyway?????

--

Mark
http://www.cichliddomain.com
> >
>
> Mike,
>
> I could not agree more and applaud your actions. LFS that refuse to
take
> fish back deserve to be boycotted, in my opinion. Refusing to take
fish
> back just invites animal abuse. It means the fish will likely be
killed
> by another fish, kept in some inappropriate container (such as a
tank
> that is too small), or, worse yet, flushed down the toilet.
Moreover, it
> just makes good business sense. Anyone will be much more hesitant
to
> purchase a fish if they know they will be stuck with it if it does
not
> work out. This is especially true for cichlid fanciers since
> compatibility problems among cichlids are legendary.
>
> Meph

[Mephistopheles]

"rmc" > wrote in news:CaR%a.1819$Ng.270309
@kent.svc.tds.net:

> I'm sorry Meph but you make absolutely no sense at all.

Since every fish store in my metro area (over 2 million people) takes
fish back, it is obvious that your "demonstration" that it is not
economically feasible is nonsense. I must say that I really do not care
much for your style. Such hot-headed radio-talk-show-host type rhetoric
never leads to any constructive debate. If you want me to respond to
your posts in the future, please adopt a more civil tone.

> The fish in
> petstores are "For Sale" not "For Rent". If people want to get fish
> on a temporary basis and exchange them at will they should contact an
> "aquarium service business". According to your way of thinking, if a
> petstore has 60 tanks with fish in them they should also have 60 empty
> tanks so people can return fish and they should probably have 120 or
> more tanks if people can return fish six months after the purchase.
> You obviously do not have a clue what retail space rents for and
> probably have even less knowledge of business in general. Even a
> non-prime retail location costs $12 per square foot annually. That
> means a small 2500 sq ft store costs $2500 per month. If a store had
> to reserve 25% of that space for returned fish to accommodate your
> absurd way of thinking they would not be in business very long and
> people would have to look elsewhere and pay more all the products and
> livestock. I'm beginning to believe that your true agenda is to stop
> all pet sales instead of educating people so they can become
> responsible with the pets they choose to get.
>
> If Mike has been keeping fish for 30 years why didn't he know what the
> potential was of the fish he was buying, and why would he expect a
> store to put a full grown fish killer back into their tanks. If after
> 30 years, and all the information that is available through books and
> the Internet, he can't make better decisions than that he probably
> shouldn't even have a fish tank.
>
> We've had this discussion before on this forum where you think it's
> appropriate to blame the petstores for any and every act of stupidity
> and negligence a person can commit in regards to buying pets and
> caring for them. You don't even try to put things in their proper
> perspective.....instead you jump up on your soap box and point
> fingers. What planet are you from anyway?????
>
> --
>
> Mark
> http://www.cichliddomain.com
>> >
>>
>> Mike,
>>
>> I could not agree more and applaud your actions. LFS that refuse to
>> take fish back deserve to be boycotted, in my opinion. Refusing to
>> take fish back just invites animal abuse. It means the fish will
>> likely be killed by another fish, kept in some inappropriate container
>> (such as a tank that is too small), or, worse yet, flushed down the
>> toilet. Moreover, it just makes good business sense. Anyone will be
>> much more hesitant to purchase a fish if they know they will be stuck
>> with it if it does not work out. This is especially true for cichlid
>> fanciers since compatibility problems among cichlids are legendary.
>>
>> Meph
>
>
>

[Mephistopheles]

FYI: you have been added to my killfile; I encourage others to do the
same

Meph

"rmc" > wrote in news:2DV%a.2192$Ng.290157
@kent.svc.tds.net:

> You flatter yourself if you think I really care if you respond or not.
>
> "Refusing to take fish back just invites animal abuse. It means the
> fish will likely be killed by another fish, kept in some inappropriate
> container (such as a tank that is too small), or, worse yet, flushed
> down the toilet."
>
> ???????
>
> Why should the burden of moral responsibility fall solely in the lap
> of the petstores???? It is usually not feasible for anyone to take
> back a full grown aggressive species. When these fish are full grown
> they cannot be put back in a tank with smaller or less aggressive
> species because they will go on a killing spree. The only choice is
> to put them in a tank by themselves or in a large community tank with
> species of equal size and aggression but even this is no guarantee
> that some fish won't be killed. This takes up tank space which takes
> up floor space which costs money. Adults of aggressive species are
> tough to sell. It has nothing to do with the species of the fish but
> rather the fact that these are now adults with their mean streak
> already in place. People that know these fish and want them will
> usually look for juveniles and allow a natural pecking order to
> develop slowly in their tank. Thus, they will have dominant and
> sub-dominant fish coexisting in their tank without loosing a bunch of
> their tankmates. Taking the same number of adults and putting them
> together usually ends up with all but one fish dead. The stores can
> take these fish back but they can only take so many and most will
> eventually take the fish in the back room and kill it. So how can a
> store afford to keep giving credit for a fish that no longer has a
> marketable value? They can't, and that's why policies are changing
> among the petstores.
>
> In Mike's case, he bought fish that he raised to adult size and was
> unwilling to care for and now he's angry at the store because they
> cannot feasibly take the fish back and offer him credit. As he said,
> he's been doing this for years. How valuable is a customer that
> consistently buys fish and brings them back months later for credit
> when he's tired of them. I think this is abusing a stores good nature
> and is likely the reason for the policy change. Did he learn
> anything??? Hell NO. He posted on another forum that he's buying
> fish from someone else for less money so he won't be out as much when
> the same thing happens again. I would bet this guy is going to buy
> fish again that he's just too lazy to do the research on and he'll be
> back looking for a shoulder to cry on.
>
> There are many other avenues at our disposal when we need to get rid
> of fish in a humane way. There are online forums and local aquarium
> clubs where fish can be traded, auctioned, sold, or given away. Too
> many people are more concerned about getting more for their fish than
> it's actually worth than finding a suitable home for it. In this case
> I can see no fault on the side of the petstore. They probably just
> got fed up with this guy bringing fish back all the time and now this
> convenience is no longer available to anyone.
>
> --
>
> Mark
> http://www.cichliddomain.com
>
>
> "Mephistopheles" > wrote in
> message hlink.net...
>> "rmc" > wrote in news:CaR%a.1819$Ng.270309
>> @kent.svc.tds.net:
>>
>> > I'm sorry Meph but you make absolutely no sense at all.
>>
>> Since every fish store in my metro area (over 2 million people) takes
>> fish back, it is obvious that your "demonstration" that it is not
>> economically feasible is nonsense. I must say that I really do not
>> care much for your style. Such hot-headed radio-talk-show-host type
>> rhetoric never leads to any constructive debate. If you want me to
>> respond to your posts in the future, please adopt a more civil tone.
>>
>> > The fish in
>> > petstores are "For Sale" not "For Rent". If people want to get fish
>> > on a temporary basis and exchange them at will they should contact
>> > an "aquarium service business". According to your way of thinking,
>> > if a petstore has 60 tanks with fish in them they should also have
>> > 60 empty tanks so people can return fish and they should probably
>> > have 120 or more tanks if people can return fish six months after
>> > the purchase. You obviously do not have a clue what retail space
>> > rents for and probably have even less knowledge of business in
>> > general. Even a non-prime retail location costs $12 per square foot
>> > annually. That means a small 2500 sq ft store costs $2500 per month.
>> > If a store had to reserve 25% of that space for returned fish to
>> > accommodate your absurd way of thinking they would not be in
>> > business very long and people would have to look elsewhere and pay
>> > more all the products and livestock. I'm beginning to believe that
>> > your true agenda is to stop all pet sales instead of educating
>> > people so they can become responsible with the pets they choose to
>> > get.
>> >
>> > If Mike has been keeping fish for 30 years why didn't he know what
>> > the potential was of the fish he was buying, and why would he expect
>> > a store to put a full grown fish killer back into their tanks. If
>> > after 30 years, and all the information that is available through
>> > books and the Internet, he can't make better decisions than that he
>> > probably shouldn't even have a fish tank.
>> >
>> > We've had this discussion before on this forum where you think it's
>> > appropriate to blame the petstores for any and every act of
>> > stupidity and negligence a person can commit in regards to buying
>> > pets and caring for them. You don't even try to put things in their
>> > proper perspective.....instead you jump up on your soap box and
>> > point fingers. What planet are you from anyway?????
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > Mark
>> > http://www.cichliddomain.com
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Mike,
>> >>
>> >> I could not agree more and applaud your actions. LFS that refuse
>> >> to take fish back deserve to be boycotted, in my opinion. Refusing
>> >> to take fish back just invites animal abuse. It means the fish
>> >> will likely be killed by another fish, kept in some inappropriate
>> >> container (such as a tank that is too small), or, worse yet,
>> >> flushed down the toilet. Moreover, it just makes good business
>> >> sense. Anyone will be much more hesitant to purchase a fish if
>> >> they know they will be stuck with it if it does not work out. This
>> >> is especially true for cichlid fanciers since compatibility
>> >> problems among cichlids are legendary.
>> >>
>> >> Meph
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
>

[rmc]

Now I'm the one that's flattered.

Thanks,

--

Mark
http://www.cichliddomain.com


"Mephistopheles" > wrote in
message hlink.net...
> FYI: you have been added to my killfile; I encourage others to do
the
> same
>
> Meph
>

[Jennifer Brooks]

>FYI: you have been added to my killfile; I encourage others to do the
>same
>
>Meph

Are you serious? He makes some very valid points, just because you do not like
what he has to say about you doesn't mean the rest of us are supposed to
killfile him. Go back and read what he says, it is VERY valid.
Jen

[The Madd Hatter]

I'm not about to jump into this one, but I had a quick question... how do
you killfile someone? If I have to see another homebased business designed
to make me millons, I'm gonna scream!

"Mephistopheles" > wrote in
message hlink.net...
> FYI: you have been added to my killfile; I encourage others to do the
> same
>
> Meph
>
> "rmc" > wrote in news:2DV%a.2192$Ng.290157
> @kent.svc.tds.net:
>
> > You flatter yourself if you think I really care if you respond or not.
> >
> > "Refusing to take fish back just invites animal abuse. It means the
> > fish will likely be killed by another fish, kept in some inappropriate
> > container (such as a tank that is too small), or, worse yet, flushed
> > down the toilet."
> >
> > ???????
> >
> > Why should the burden of moral responsibility fall solely in the lap
> > of the petstores???? It is usually not feasible for anyone to take
> > back a full grown aggressive species. When these fish are full grown
> > they cannot be put back in a tank with smaller or less aggressive
> > species because they will go on a killing spree. The only choice is
> > to put them in a tank by themselves or in a large community tank with
> > species of equal size and aggression but even this is no guarantee
> > that some fish won't be killed. This takes up tank space which takes
> > up floor space which costs money. Adults of aggressive species are
> > tough to sell. It has nothing to do with the species of the fish but
> > rather the fact that these are now adults with their mean streak
> > already in place. People that know these fish and want them will
> > usually look for juveniles and allow a natural pecking order to
> > develop slowly in their tank. Thus, they will have dominant and
> > sub-dominant fish coexisting in their tank without loosing a bunch of
> > their tankmates. Taking the same number of adults and putting them
> > together usually ends up with all but one fish dead. The stores can
> > take these fish back but they can only take so many and most will
> > eventually take the fish in the back room and kill it. So how can a
> > store afford to keep giving credit for a fish that no longer has a
> > marketable value? They can't, and that's why policies are changing
> > among the petstores.
> >
> > In Mike's case, he bought fish that he raised to adult size and was
> > unwilling to care for and now he's angry at the store because they
> > cannot feasibly take the fish back and offer him credit. As he said,
> > he's been doing this for years. How valuable is a customer that
> > consistently buys fish and brings them back months later for credit
> > when he's tired of them. I think this is abusing a stores good nature
> > and is likely the reason for the policy change. Did he learn
> > anything??? Hell NO. He posted on another forum that he's buying
> > fish from someone else for less money so he won't be out as much when
> > the same thing happens again. I would bet this guy is going to buy
> > fish again that he's just too lazy to do the research on and he'll be
> > back looking for a shoulder to cry on.
> >
> > There are many other avenues at our disposal when we need to get rid
> > of fish in a humane way. There are online forums and local aquarium
> > clubs where fish can be traded, auctioned, sold, or given away. Too
> > many people are more concerned about getting more for their fish than
> > it's actually worth than finding a suitable home for it. In this case
> > I can see no fault on the side of the petstore. They probably just
> > got fed up with this guy bringing fish back all the time and now this
> > convenience is no longer available to anyone.
> >
> > --
> >
> > Mark
> > http://www.cichliddomain.com
> >
> >
> > "Mephistopheles" > wrote in
> > message hlink.net...
> >> "rmc" > wrote in news:CaR%a.1819$Ng.270309
> >> @kent.svc.tds.net:
> >>
> >> > I'm sorry Meph but you make absolutely no sense at all.
> >>
> >> Since every fish store in my metro area (over 2 million people) takes
> >> fish back, it is obvious that your "demonstration" that it is not
> >> economically feasible is nonsense. I must say that I really do not
> >> care much for your style. Such hot-headed radio-talk-show-host type
> >> rhetoric never leads to any constructive debate. If you want me to
> >> respond to your posts in the future, please adopt a more civil tone.
> >>
> >> > The fish in
> >> > petstores are "For Sale" not "For Rent". If people want to get fish
> >> > on a temporary basis and exchange them at will they should contact
> >> > an "aquarium service business". According to your way of thinking,
> >> > if a petstore has 60 tanks with fish in them they should also have
> >> > 60 empty tanks so people can return fish and they should probably
> >> > have 120 or more tanks if people can return fish six months after
> >> > the purchase. You obviously do not have a clue what retail space
> >> > rents for and probably have even less knowledge of business in
> >> > general. Even a non-prime retail location costs $12 per square foot
> >> > annually. That means a small 2500 sq ft store costs $2500 per month.
> >> > If a store had to reserve 25% of that space for returned fish to
> >> > accommodate your absurd way of thinking they would not be in
> >> > business very long and people would have to look elsewhere and pay
> >> > more all the products and livestock. I'm beginning to believe that
> >> > your true agenda is to stop all pet sales instead of educating
> >> > people so they can become responsible with the pets they choose to
> >> > get.
> >> >
> >> > If Mike has been keeping fish for 30 years why didn't he know what
> >> > the potential was of the fish he was buying, and why would he expect
> >> > a store to put a full grown fish killer back into their tanks. If
> >> > after 30 years, and all the information that is available through
> >> > books and the Internet, he can't make better decisions than that he
> >> > probably shouldn't even have a fish tank.
> >> >
> >> > We've had this discussion before on this forum where you think it's
> >> > appropriate to blame the petstores for any and every act of
> >> > stupidity and negligence a person can commit in regards to buying
> >> > pets and caring for them. You don't even try to put things in their
> >> > proper perspective.....instead you jump up on your soap box and
> >> > point fingers. What planet are you from anyway?????
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> >
> >> > Mark
> >> > http://www.cichliddomain.com
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Mike,
> >> >>
> >> >> I could not agree more and applaud your actions. LFS that refuse
> >> >> to take fish back deserve to be boycotted, in my opinion. Refusing
> >> >> to take fish back just invites animal abuse. It means the fish
> >> >> will likely be killed by another fish, kept in some inappropriate
> >> >> container (such as a tank that is too small), or, worse yet,
> >> >> flushed down the toilet. Moreover, it just makes good business
> >> >> sense. Anyone will be much more hesitant to purchase a fish if
> >> >> they know they will be stuck with it if it does not work out. This
> >> >> is especially true for cichlid fanciers since compatibility
> >> >> problems among cichlids are legendary.
> >> >>
> >> >> Meph
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>

[Flash Wilson]

On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 17:42:51 GMT, The Madd Hatter
> wrote:
>I'm not about to jump into this one, but I had a quick question... how do
>you killfile someone? If I have to see another homebased business designed

Depends on your newsreader software - what are you using?
Try hunting online to find out the answer for your software.

You can killfile people (originating email addresses) or threads.

Not sure how much use it will be for spam though because spammers
tend to get cut off by their ISP pretty quick, but then get a new
account and post from there... good luck though :)


--
__ __ ____ __ ____ __ __ __ _ ___ _ _ __ _ ___ ___ _ _ __ _
\ V V /\ V V /\ V V // _` / _ \ '_/ _` / -_)_/ _ \ '_/ _` |
\_/\_/ \_/\_/ \_/\_(_)__, \___/_| \__, \___(_)___/_| \__, |
|___/ |___/ |___/

[Amateur]

"bassett" > wrote in message >...
> I would suggest that you read the mans post again, Does this sound like
> someone, who has just walked in of the street.
>
> Quote,, I had some africans that had grown to adult size and were
> attempting
> > to kill each other. I separated the adult males and bagged up one of
> > each to take back to my LFS. I would never have bought 2 males but
> > with africans it is often impossible to sex them when they are small.
> > These were beautiful healthy fish. 3 of the 4 fish had actually been
> > purchased from the same LFS that I was taking them back to. I had
> > purchased several hundred dollars of fish from this LFS.
>
> Unquote..
>
> It would seem that the man was a regular customer at the store. Fish
> sales work
> both ways, The hobbyist buys fish from his local store, and the store
> obtains fish from hobbyists.. But, The fish store is stuck in one place,
> and the Hobbyist can sell anywhere.
>
> The only thing our friendly poster forgot to do was name the LFS, Name
> Address
> phone number, and the type of fish he used to stock.
> .
> In Oz you pull a stunt like that and Buddy Boy, your out of Business.
>
> bassett
>
I'm a regular customer at many stores. That doesn't mean that my
fish aren't carrying some disease that can spread to fish it's put in
with when returned. I'm not against fish returns, just not months or
years after the purchase. The customer should have some responsibility
in making sure that the fish they're purchasing will be compatible
with their environment and tank mates as adults. I've watched LFS
employees explain to customers what fish will be like when they grow
to adult size and watched customers shrug and say, "I'll just get rid
of them when they get big." There's a large percentage of people out
there who ask questions in an attempt to only hear the answers they
want to hear. Just because this person drops a few hundred dollars at
a shop doesn't mean they have the right to bring in fish and
potentially harm a few hundreds dollars worth of stock. Why should the
LFS shoulder the additional burden of quarantining these fish when the
OP didn't do all the research to begin with.
I'm not attempting to say, the OP had diseased fish, but I can
see the point of the LFS in not taking back the fish after a few
months of the fish being sold. I think boycotting this shop is a
little radical. I could make an argument that I spend thousands at my
LFS and they should purchase my fry from me at full price just to keep
my business. Spending lots of money at a place doesn't give you free
reign over that shop's policies. Especially policies designed to
protect the business. Perhaps the OP should have gotten a bigger tank
for these fish or purchased fish originally that would have remained
compatible as adults. Although sexing fish as juveniles is not easy,
it's not impossible. If you'd like, I could read the original post a
few times, but I'll still disagree with the boycott.
Cheers,
AC


Send all complaints to www.amateurcichlids.com
Feel free to promote a boycott of my site if you don't like my
opinions. ;-)

[Cichlidiot]

Amateur > wrote:
> I'm a regular customer at many stores. That doesn't mean that my
> fish aren't carrying some disease that can spread to fish it's put in
> with when returned. I'm not against fish returns, just not months or
> years after the purchase. The customer should have some responsibility
> in making sure that the fish they're purchasing will be compatible
> with their environment and tank mates as adults. I've watched LFS
> employees explain to customers what fish will be like when they grow
> to adult size and watched customers shrug and say, "I'll just get rid
> of them when they get big." There's a large percentage of people out
> there who ask questions in an attempt to only hear the answers they
> want to hear. Just because this person drops a few hundred dollars at
> a shop doesn't mean they have the right to bring in fish and
> potentially harm a few hundreds dollars worth of stock. Why should the
> LFS shoulder the additional burden of quarantining these fish when the
> OP didn't do all the research to begin with.
> I'm not attempting to say, the OP had diseased fish, but I can
> see the point of the LFS in not taking back the fish after a few
> months of the fish being sold. I think boycotting this shop is a
> little radical. I could make an argument that I spend thousands at my
> LFS and they should purchase my fry from me at full price just to keep
> my business. Spending lots of money at a place doesn't give you free
> reign over that shop's policies. Especially policies designed to
> protect the business. Perhaps the OP should have gotten a bigger tank
> for these fish or purchased fish originally that would have remained
> compatible as adults. Although sexing fish as juveniles is not easy,
> it's not impossible. If you'd like, I could read the original post a
> few times, but I'll still disagree with the boycott.

I'd like to politely disagree with you. It is very near impossible in most
retail stores to ask them to allow you to sit there and vent the juvenials
to make sure you don't get too many males. I also think you are casting
the OP in the wrong light. It does not sound to me like he did not do his
research. He knew he should only have x number of males in the end, but
was unable to guarentee that because of the age of the fish purchased.
This is a very common situation when one has only juvenials available for
purchase. It is unreasonable of you to say he did not do his research or
he should have bought other fish. Especially for you to compare him to the
unknowing person off the street who ignores the fish shop's warning. From
my readings of the OP, he seemed a knowledgable aquarist who got the short
end of the stick when it came to how many males appeared in a batch of
juvenials. Purely a matter of chance often faced when having to buy
unsexed juvenials and it reflects nothing on the experience or knowledge
of the aquarist.

Also, with certain types of cichlids, a larger tank would do no good for
the additional males unless we are talking huge tanks, which is also
unreasonable to ask of the OP. Additional females and a reasonably larger
tank may have helped, but again we're faced with the problem of unsexed
juvenials. Back to the matter of other fish "that would have remained
compatible as adults". Unless you're talking non-cichlids, it's pretty
rare to guarentee peaceful adult co-existance between a number of males.
Even angels, discus and some of the other cichlids labeled "peaceful" can
get downright nasty towards other males. Case in point, I purchased 8
juvenial Cyprichromis leptosoma, regarded as a peaceful cichlid by most.
It turned out to be 4 males and 4 females when I would have preferred at
most 2 males. The dominant male was quite fierce about his territory,
leaving the 3 subdominant males spending most of their time in the rock
pile (usually this is an open water fish). Now had this been a more
aggressive cichlid, even the rock pile would not have protected the
subdominant males from attack by the dominant male. Cichlids can be
unpredictable, especially when it comes to mating and mating displays and
territory. I'm sure almost everyone can relate a story of an aggressive
"peaceful" cichlid and vis versa.

As to the original theme, that of boycotting a pet store because it will
not take trade-ins. In my experience, it should be only part of the
equation with prior experiences with the business being more of the
equation than refusal to take fish. There is one store I will not
patronage anymore because it would not take my fry, but that was only part
of the reason why. I had also had experiences with the owners where there
would be an obviously unhealthy fish (dangerously skinny usually,
especially with the algae eaters, rarely diseased) or a "look alike"
(flying fox instead of SAE for example) in a batch I was interested in
purchasing. When I would point out those specimens (usually 1 or 2 out of
a dozen or so) and explain why I didn't want those in particular but any
others would be fine, the owners would then refuse to then net any fish
saying something like "I'm not going to chase fish for 30 mins just to
avoid that one". I find that to be poor business practice. First, they
allow unhealthy fish to remain on display (and apparently do not
supplement algae tabs for their algae eaters as those had the biggest
percentage of wasting problems). Second, they force customers to purchase
an unhealthy fish because they can't be bothered to catch other fish,
especially considering that the unhealthy one will probably be the easiest
to catch and therefore the customer would be more likely to end up with
something that would likely die within a week or less. Third, most other
stores appreciate when I point out unhealthy stock and take matters to
remedy the situation (such as removing the affected fish to a quarintine
tank), not cop an attitude. Combine the unhealthy fish and poor attitude
towards the unhealthy fish being pointed out to them with their
unwillingness to purchase fry and they lost my business even though they
are the largest fish store in town. They just had an overall nasty
attitude towards their customers and didn't seem to be taking proper care
of their livestock. I'd heard others at the neighboring town's aquarium
society make similar complaints about the business too, so it was not just
me. One of the owners in particular seemed to have a real attitude problem
towards customers, especially new customers, according to the others I
spoke with.

These sort of factors should go into the decision to boycott, not just one
issue. If the store has great stock and customer service otherwise,
perhaps a better course of action is to talk to the store manager about
why the store will no longer accept trade-ins. If you are a long-term
customer, the manager might be willing to make some sort of compromise,
but not if you show up on the store's doorstep with a bunch of fish. It's
always polite to call and talk first. Perhaps if the OP had done that, the
manager could have recommended another outlet for the excess males, such
as another customer looking for such fish, even if the store would not
have taken them. At the very least, it would have saved the OP time and
gas money.

[Mephistopheles]

(Jennifer Brooks) wrote in
:

>>FYI: you have been added to my killfile; I encourage others to do the
>>same
>>
>>Meph
>
> Are you serious? He makes some very valid points, just because you do
> not like what he has to say about you doesn't mean the rest of us are
> supposed to killfile him. Go back and read what he says, it is VERY
> valid. Jen
>

Jen,

Of course the choice is yours. If gratuitous insults, trash talking,
constant shifting of positions, and perpetual misrepresentation of your
opponents' positions is your cup of tea, then by all means do not
killfile him. (By the way, I based my decision not simply on this thread
but also on a previous encounter with this poster.) I agree he sometimes
has interesting things to say, but my life has enough aggravation as it
is to want to deal with all the other nonsense that comes with it.

Meph

[Mephistopheles]

Flash,

Mid-posting.

Meph

(Flash Wilson) wrote in
:

> On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 04:29:36 GMT, Mephistopheles
> > wrote:
>>FYI: you have been added to my killfile; I encourage others to do the
>>same
>
> <snip rest of thread>
>
> Meph, you have not only top posted which ruins the flow of conversation

Since I had just killfiled him, there would be no further conversation
from my perspective, so there would be no flow to ruin. Besides, people
who worry about top posting versus bottom posting are those rare
individuals who are even more anal than I am. I like to randomly switch
between bottom posting and top posting just to annoy them. ;-)

> but you have quoted his message in full. That's over 100 lines that
> you were encouraging others not to read, but you reproduced it.

I was not discouraging others from reading the post at all. I would not
want to killfile someone without preserving the thread that led to it.
>
> Also, what good does telling people you have killfiled them do,
> other than to incite flames and keep the debate going?

I do not follow you here. How is a flame war going to keep going if I
cannot see his posts?

>
> Alternatively you could killfile the thread (and stop participating
> in it!) or just delete it each time. Cyberspace is big and we all
> have to live here.

But I like the thread -- I just do not appreciate his posts.

>
> If you really don't care for his opinion, please deal with it quietly!

I think brief single paragraph replies to each of his posts is about as
quiet as it gets, in my experience. Moreover, one might turn this
accusation around against your post. Why make such a big deal of the way
I responded? Each of my responses were very brief and involved no name-
calling or personal insults (unlike his posts).

>
> Cheers,

[Amateur]

Cichlidiot > wrote in message >...
Mid-Posted:

> I'd like to politely disagree with you. It is very near impossible in most
> retail stores to ask them to allow you to sit there and vent the juvenials
> to make sure you don't get too many males.

True in many cases. I typically avoid these types of shops. If I
intend to buy one male and four females, I do my best to get just
that. If it's impossible to tell, I make plans in advance for the fish
I'll need to get rid of when the fish mature.

>I also think you are casting
> the OP in the wrong light. It does not sound to me like he did not do his
> research. He knew he should only have x number of males in the end, but
> was unable to guarentee that because of the age of the fish purchased.
> This is a very common situation when one has only juvenials available for
> purchase. It is unreasonable of you to say he did not do his research or
> he should have bought other fish. Especially for you to compare him to the
> unknowing person off the street who ignores the fish shop's warning. From
> my readings of the OP, he seemed a knowledgable aquarist who got the short
> end of the stick when it came to how many males appeared in a batch of
> juvenials. Purely a matter of chance often faced when having to buy
> unsexed juvenials and it reflects nothing on the experience or knowledge
> of the aquarist.


Ok, perhaps I was a bit harsh. I just get tired of people bashing
an LFS for reasons that I believe are ill-logical. The LFS I frequent
will vent fish, chase a specific fish around a 180 gallon tank for me
and takes returns on any equipment of fish I have problems with. But
with fish, it's only for a certain amount of time. If I wanted to
bring in fish to get rid of, or fry to sell, I'd have to discuss it
with them first and then they may or may not take the fish. I dont'
fault them for this policy.

>
> Also, with certain types of cichlids, a larger tank would do no good for
> the additional males unless we are talking huge tanks, which is also
> unreasonable to ask of the OP. Additional females and a reasonably larger
> tank may have helped, but again we're faced with the problem of unsexed
> juvenials. Back to the matter of other fish "that would have remained
> compatible as adults". Unless you're talking non-cichlids, it's pretty
> rare to guarentee peaceful adult co-existance between a number of males.
> Even angels, discus and some of the other cichlids labeled "peaceful" can
> get downright nasty towards other males. Case in point, I purchased 8
> juvenial Cyprichromis leptosoma, regarded as a peaceful cichlid by most.
> It turned out to be 4 males and 4 females when I would have preferred at
> most 2 males. The dominant male was quite fierce about his territory,
> leaving the 3 subdominant males spending most of their time in the rock
> pile (usually this is an open water fish). Now had this been a more
> aggressive cichlid, even the rock pile would not have protected the
> subdominant males from attack by the dominant male. Cichlids can be
> unpredictable, especially when it comes to mating and mating displays and
> territory. I'm sure almost everyone can relate a story of an aggressive
> "peaceful" cichlid and vis versa.
>

Very true. But wouldn't it be a good idea to know what you plan
on doing with the excess males before hand?

> As to the original theme, that of boycotting a pet store because it will
> not take trade-ins. In my experience, it should be only part of the
> equation with prior experiences with the business being more of the
> equation than refusal to take fish. There is one store I will not
> patronage anymore because it would not take my fry, but that was only part
> of the reason why. I had also had experiences with the owners where there
> would be an obviously unhealthy fish (dangerously skinny usually,
> especially with the algae eaters, rarely diseased) or a "look alike"
> (flying fox instead of SAE for example) in a batch I was interested in
> purchasing. When I would point out those specimens (usually 1 or 2 out of
> a dozen or so) and explain why I didn't want those in particular but any
> others would be fine, the owners would then refuse to then net any fish
> saying something like "I'm not going to chase fish for 30 mins just to
> avoid that one". I find that to be poor business practice. First, they
> allow unhealthy fish to remain on display (and apparently do not
> supplement algae tabs for their algae eaters as those had the biggest
> percentage of wasting problems). Second, they force customers to purchase
> an unhealthy fish because they can't be bothered to catch other fish,
> especially considering that the unhealthy one will probably be the easiest
> to catch and therefore the customer would be more likely to end up with
> something that would likely die within a week or less. Third, most other
> stores appreciate when I point out unhealthy stock and take matters to
> remedy the situation (such as removing the affected fish to a quarintine
> tank), not cop an attitude. Combine the unhealthy fish and poor attitude
> towards the unhealthy fish being pointed out to them with their
> unwillingness to purchase fry and they lost my business even though they
> are the largest fish store in town. They just had an overall nasty
> attitude towards their customers and didn't seem to be taking proper care
> of their livestock. I'd heard others at the neighboring town's aquarium
> society make similar complaints about the business too, so it was not just
> me. One of the owners in particular seemed to have a real attitude problem
> towards customers, especially new customers, according to the others I
> spoke with.
>

All very good reasons to boycott a store. I wouldn't fault a
boycott for those reasons. I'd stop shopping at any store that
wouldn't let me select specifically what I was buying and wasn't
committed to customer service. But I wouldn't boycott a store for not
taking back a pair of jeans I'd been wearing for six months then grew
out of.

> These sort of factors should go into the decision to boycott, not just one
> issue. If the store has great stock and customer service otherwise,
> perhaps a better course of action is to talk to the store manager about
> why the store will no longer accept trade-ins. If you are a long-term
> customer, the manager might be willing to make some sort of compromise,
> but not if you show up on the store's doorstep with a bunch of fish. It's
> always polite to call and talk first. Perhaps if the OP had done that, the
> manager could have recommended another outlet for the excess males, such
> as another customer looking for such fish, even if the store would not
> have taken them. At the very least, it would have saved the OP time and
> gas money.

If he was a repeating customer, then a phone call should have
been no problem. Especially with the long drive ahead of him. I'll
rescind my comments on the OP not doing his research and comparing
them to some of the people off the street that buy fish by color. I do
however hope that the OP joins a club and finds outlets for fish that
become uncompatible with the rest of his tanks.
Buying fish on-line is all find and good. But who will the OP
give those fish to when they outgrow his tank? Will he mail them back
and hope for the best? If that LFS he's boycotting goes out of
business without his $400, who will he go to for that emergency heater
or filter replacement? I don't advocate shopping at places that aren't
customer service orientated or places that do poor business, but if a
store has a policy, at the minimum try to understand the reasons for
it.
AC
www.amateurcichlids.com

This will be my last post as my new server will no longer allow
posting to newsgroups for some reason and I tire of logging in to
google. The forum is open on my site for anyone who is looking for a
reply. Email is also available.

[Mephistopheles]

Mid-posting.

(Amateur) wrote in
om:

[Snip]

>>
> I'm a regular customer at many stores. That doesn't mean that my
> fish aren't carrying some disease that can spread to fish it's put in
> with when returned.

As I already explained in my previous post, this seems like paranoia to
me. ANY fish carries a risk of spreading disease. There is probably
less of a risk from a fish from a hobbyist.

> I'm not against fish returns, just not months or
> years after the purchase.

Why should the period of time make any difference? A fish put in a tank
for a few days may catch a disease just as easily as a fish in a tank for
a few years. In fact, if it has been there for a few years there is
probably less risk of it being diseased since it has survived for several
years, been quarantined from the fish shop for several years (probably
the biggest breeding grounds for diseases), and also survived the
transition from LFS to hobbyist's tank.

> The customer should have some responsibility
> in making sure that the fish they're purchasing will be compatible
> with their environment and tank mates as adults.

Certainly, but both you and I know that even experienced hobbyists have
difficulty predicting how cichlids will respond to one another. Even
people with the same combination of fish can have radically different
experiences.

> I've watched LFS
> employees explain to customers what fish will be like when they grow
> to adult size and watched customers shrug and say, "I'll just get rid
> of them when they get big." There's a large percentage of people out
> there who ask questions in an attempt to only hear the answers they
> want to hear. Just because this person drops a few hundred dollars at
> a shop doesn't mean they have the right to bring in fish and
> potentially harm a few hundreds dollars worth of stock. Why should the
> LFS shoulder the additional burden of quarantining these fish when the
> OP didn't do all the research to begin with.

I really think the idea that it is some tremendous burden on an LFS to
take back fish is wrong. I frequently visit my LFS looking for larger
fish for my big tanks. The principal way my LFS gets large fish is
through trade-ins (most distributors do not sell them -- they take too
long to grow). In my experience, these fish are quickly bought after
being traded in -- with the LFS making a quick profit. I suppose if it
is a very small LFS there might be a problem. But otherwise, I think an
LFS that has a flat no trade-ins policy is simply making a bad business
decision.

> I'm not attempting to say, the OP had diseased fish, but I can
> see the point of the LFS in not taking back the fish after a few
> months of the fish being sold. I think boycotting this shop is a
> little radical.

Actually, I do not believe the original poster was technically
"boycotting" the shop. His description simply suggests an economic
decision -- he felt he would get better value by buying fish online.

> I could make an argument that I spend thousands at my
> LFS and they should purchase my fry from me at full price just to keep
> my business.

You could make such an argument, but I do not believe it would be a good
argument. First, I can see where fry would put a significant burden on
an LFS -- as opposed to a few adult fish. With fry, one or several tanks
must be completely devoted, for an extended period of time, to these fish
alone. Moreover, many fry are not good sellers. Second, unlike
compatibility issues, the production of fry is completely predictable.
If you put males and females together in an appropriate setting, you know
there is a good chance they will breed. If you are not prepared to deal
with the fry yourself, you should not put your fish in that situation.

[Snip]

Meph

[Sharpie]

"Mephistopheles" > wrote in
message k.net...
> Mid-posting.

>
> Why should the period of time make any difference? A fish put in a tank
> for a few days may catch a disease just as easily as a fish in a tank for
> a few years. In fact, if it has been there for a few years there is
> probably less risk of it being diseased since it has survived for several
> years, been quarantined from the fish shop for several years (probably
> the biggest breeding grounds for diseases), and also survived the
> transition from LFS to hobbyist's tank.

Just dipping a net in one tank and then another can transmit disease. Fish
can also become immune to diseases but still be carriers. You can take two
completely healthy fish from different tanks, put them in the same tank, and
end up killing both because they are not used to the bugs the other fish
carries. I've noticed it more when fish from different regions or bodies of
water are put together.
>

> Certainly, but both you and I know that even experienced hobbyists have
> difficulty predicting how cichlids will respond to one another. Even
> people with the same combination of fish can have radically different
> experiences.

I have only been surprised by cichlids that did not become aggressive. An
experience hobbyist should know what to change to counter any unusual
behavior and they should accept full responsibility if they purchase them.
I think cichlids are some of the easiest fish to predict and care for. The
different species will show their aggression in different ways. Some attack
only fish of the same species, some attack anythings in the tank.


>
> I really think the idea that it is some tremendous burden on an LFS to
> take back fish is wrong. I frequently visit my LFS looking for larger
> fish for my big tanks. The principal way my LFS gets large fish is
> through trade-ins (most distributors do not sell them -- they take too
> long to grow). In my experience, these fish are quickly bought after
> being traded in -- with the LFS making a quick profit. I suppose if it
> is a very small LFS there might be a problem. But otherwise, I think an
> LFS that has a flat no trade-ins policy is simply making a bad business
> decision.

How about this for an idea: The LFS can setup X number of small tanks and
call it "Hobbyist Corner" or something. People wanting to sell their fish
can rent one of the tanks for X dollars per month and the LFS gets a
percentage of the sales for providing the space, exposure, and caring for
the fish. If the tanks are full the person will just have to wait. If the
fish does not sell then that person has to make a choice to keep paying for
the fish until it sells or finding another solution.



>
> Actually, I do not believe the original poster was technically
> "boycotting" the shop. His description simply suggests an economic
> decision -- he felt he would get better value by buying fish online.

Actually, the original post did make such a reference in the last sentence
of his post, "My LFS wont ever see another $ from me."


> You could make such an argument, but I do not believe it would be a good
> argument. First, I can see where fry would put a significant burden on
> an LFS -- as opposed to a few adult fish. With fry, one or several tanks
> must be completely devoted, for an extended period of time, to these fish
> alone. Moreover, many fry are not good sellers. Second, unlike
> compatibility issues, the production of fry is completely predictable.
> If you put males and females together in an appropriate setting, you know
> there is a good chance they will breed. If you are not prepared to deal
> with the fry yourself, you should not put your fish in that situation.

Small fish are much more profitable than the large fish. An LFS has more
potential selling hundreds of small fish like Neons for a few dollars each
than one sale of a larger cichlid for $25. The economics are quite simple.
They can keep 50+ Neons in a 15-gallon tank but only one adult cichlid. The
neons will sell quickly whereas the adult cichlid won't. Most LFS do not
want cichlid fry either. The majority of people buying fish are looking for
color and most cichlids do not show color until they are reaching adulthood.
So, the LFS has to either let the fish grow out which could take up to a
year, or sell the fish to the select few that know what these fish are and
will become. Most rural LFS do not want to carry cichlids at all but they
do because people ask for them.

The locaton of the LFS plays a major part in the decissions that must be
made. If you live in an area with a large population the larger fish may
sell rather quickly. But, the smaller the community, the less chance there
is of selling these fish. 1% of 500,000 fishkeepers is far different than
1% of 5,000.

[Mephistopheles]

Sharpie,

Thanks for your thoughtful comments. I appreciated them despite some
occasional sarcasm in my replies. Mid-posting.

Meph

"Sharpie" > wrote in message >...
> "Mephistopheles" > wrote in
> message k.net...
> > Mid-posting.
>
> >
> > Why should the period of time make any difference? A fish put in a tank
> > for a few days may catch a disease just as easily as a fish in a tank for
> > a few years. In fact, if it has been there for a few years there is
> > probably less risk of it being diseased since it has survived for several
> > years, been quarantined from the fish shop for several years (probably
> > the biggest breeding grounds for diseases), and also survived the
> > transition from LFS to hobbyist's tank.
>
> Just dipping a net in one tank and then another can transmit disease. Fish
> can also become immune to diseases but still be carriers. You can take two
> completely healthy fish from different tanks, put them in the same tank, and
> end up killing both because they are not used to the bugs the other fish
> carries. I've noticed it more when fish from different regions or bodies of
> water are put together.

Yes, I agree. But what does that have to do with the topic at hand?

> >
>
> > Certainly, but both you and I know that even experienced hobbyists have
> > difficulty predicting how cichlids will respond to one another. Even
> > people with the same combination of fish can have radically different
> > experiences.
>
> I have only been surprised by cichlids that did not become aggressive. An
> experience hobbyist should know what to change to counter any unusual
> behavior and they should accept full responsibility if they purchase them.
> I think cichlids are some of the easiest fish to predict and care for. The
> different species will show their aggression in different ways. Some attack
> only fish of the same species, some attack anythings in the tank.

Wow! You put people like Paul Loiselle and Ad Konings to shame. You
should right a book since you apparently are the only cichlid keeper
on the planet who has found a fool proof method for assuring cichlid
compatability.

>
>
> >
> > I really think the idea that it is some tremendous burden on an LFS to
> > take back fish is wrong. I frequently visit my LFS looking for larger
> > fish for my big tanks. The principal way my LFS gets large fish is
> > through trade-ins (most distributors do not sell them -- they take too
> > long to grow). In my experience, these fish are quickly bought after
> > being traded in -- with the LFS making a quick profit. I suppose if it
> > is a very small LFS there might be a problem. But otherwise, I think an
> > LFS that has a flat no trade-ins policy is simply making a bad business
> > decision.
>
> How about this for an idea: The LFS can setup X number of small tanks and
> call it "Hobbyist Corner" or something. People wanting to sell their fish
> can rent one of the tanks for X dollars per month and the LFS gets a
> percentage of the sales for providing the space, exposure, and caring for
> the fish. If the tanks are full the person will just have to wait. If the
> fish does not sell then that person has to make a choice to keep paying for
> the fish until it sells or finding another solution.
>
>
>
> >
> > Actually, I do not believe the original poster was technically
> > "boycotting" the shop. His description simply suggests an economic
> > decision -- he felt he would get better value by buying fish online.
>
> Actually, the original post did make such a reference in the last sentence

> of his post, "My LFS wont ever see another $ from me."

He did not use the word "boycott", and the phrase you quote does not
necessarily mean a boycott. A boycott is refusing to purchase, not as
an economic decision, but as a matter of principle. He was saying
that he would never buy from his LFS again because the higher prices
were no longer justified by the level of service he received. That is
not a boycott.

>
>
> > You could make such an argument, but I do not believe it would be a good
> > argument. First, I can see where fry would put a significant burden on
> > an LFS -- as opposed to a few adult fish. With fry, one or several tanks
> > must be completely devoted, for an extended period of time, to these fish
> > alone. Moreover, many fry are not good sellers. Second, unlike
> > compatibility issues, the production of fry is completely predictable.
> > If you put males and females together in an appropriate setting, you know
> > there is a good chance they will breed. If you are not prepared to deal
> > with the fry yourself, you should not put your fish in that situation.
>
> Small fish are much more profitable than the large fish. An LFS has more
> potential selling hundreds of small fish like Neons for a few dollars each
> than one sale of a larger cichlid for $25. The economics are quite simple.
> They can keep 50+ Neons in a 15-gallon tank but only one adult cichlid. The
> neons will sell quickly whereas the adult cichlid won't.

That is why you don't keep adult cichlids in 15 gallon tanks. Almost
every LFS I have been to has small tanks for small fish, and big tanks
for big fish. Since they already have these larger tanks set up, the
marginal cost of adding one more fish to the tank from a trade-in is
almost nothing to them. Thus, they will make a nice profit from a
fish that will sell. Now, some fish won't sell. I have no problem
with giving an LFS some latitude to screen out the duds on a
case-by-case basis--what I most object to is blanket no trade-in
policies.


> Most LFS do not
> want cichlid fry either. The majority of people buying fish are looking for
> color and most cichlids do not show color until they are reaching adulthood.
> So, the LFS has to either let the fish grow out which could take up to a
> year, or sell the fish to the select few that know what these fish are and
> will become. Most rural LFS do not want to carry cichlids at all but they
> do because people ask for them.

I agree, but am not sure of the relevance of your point to this
discussion.

>
> The locaton of the LFS plays a major part in the decissions that must be
> made. If you live in an area with a large population the larger fish may
> sell rather quickly. But, the smaller the community, the less chance there
> is of selling these fish. 1% of 500,000 fishkeepers is far different than
> 1% of 5,000.

Good point. But again even in a small community I do not see that a
blanket no trade-in policy is justified.

[Mark Stone]

Mephistopheles > wrote in message >...

>
> Jen,
>
> Of course the choice is yours. If gratuitous insults, trash talking,
> constant shifting of positions, and perpetual misrepresentation of your
> opponents' positions is your cup of tea, then by all means do not
> killfile him. (By the way, I based my decision not simply on this thread
> but also on a previous encounter with this poster.) I agree he sometimes
> has interesting things to say, but my life has enough aggravation as it
> is to want to deal with all the other nonsense that comes with it.
>
> Meph

The point is not about Mark's logic or not; the point is that Mark's
post was not constructive, nor objective, but an attack. We can
discuss issues without name calling. I personally won't plonk Mark,
but I frankly don't blame Meph for doing so.

I've never seen a legitimate LFS that doesn't allow returned fish,
myself. I've even talked PetSmart into it a time or two! It's always
been considered good business practice, and generates permanent
customers. LFSs that stay open usually have built relationships with
regular customers; if I have returned $50.00 worth of healthy fish, it
means I've probably bought $200 worth of "stock" there, in addition to
food, meds, filters, airstones, backgrounds, this, that . . .

--Mark


Mark Stone tractorlegs at msn dot com
OSCAR Lovers! http://www.geocities.com/cichlidiot_2000/oscar.html
The ".Edu" meens i are smart.

[The Madd Hatter]

>
> Isn't "Mephistopheles" synonymous with Satan?
>

Thought this was another flame attack, but I punched it into google...
Definition from Encyclopedia Britannica:

"Mephistopheles, also called Mephisto, familiar spirit of the Devil in
late settings of the legend of Faust . It is probable that the name
Mephistopheles was invented for the historical Faust by the anonymous author
of the first Faustbuch (1587). A latecomer in the infernal hierarchy,
Mephistopheles never became an integral part of the tradition of magic and
demonology that predated him by thousands."


All kinds of interesting sites pop up when you type the name in to google.
Ofcourse I haven't heard Meph suggesting any sort of demonic fish keeping so
far, and this is a NG dedicated to discussions regarding cichlids..... Now
you want evil, check that numbnut that posted on this same topic in the
rec.aquaria.tech NG...... I think the poster's name was Bill.Quote below:

"Bill" > wrote in message
news:8xu_a.56708$Ne.49403@fed1read03...
>
> "Mike Petro" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I definitely have not developed the ability to simply kill fish,
> > otherwise I would have flushed them instead of trying to find them a
> > home.
>
> Flushing is for wimps. Put a stopper in the kitchen sink. Fill it with
> water. Place fish in it's new home. Turn on the garbage disposal. and
> remove the stopper. The fish will never know what hit him. And it sounds
> cool too :)


I wouldn't mind seein this guy going down a garbage disposal feet first,
just to see if he "knew what hit him".....

[Cam]

> I wouldn't mind seein this guy going down a garbage disposal feet first,
> just to see if he "knew what hit him".....

Hey Mad

LOL. Rather head first, so we can see how far back his toes curl :)

Regards
Cameron

[bassett]

The thing is,, Pet Shops ,,Aquariums,, LFS, etc,,, have to buy stock to stay
in business,,
Its far better to buy from regular customers, then buy from dealers //
Wholesalers // trappers.. most people frequent the same premises for there
fish supplies, they build-up a repore with the owner, The original poster
bought the fish from the shop that he wanted to
exchange // swap // sell // whatever, Therefore he was known to the
proprietor, So what's the problem....

bassett



Mephistopheles > wrote in message
om...
> Sharpie,
>
> Thanks for your thoughtful comments. I appreciated them despite some
> occasional sarcasm in my replies. Mid-posting.
>
> Meph
>
> "Sharpie" > wrote in message
>...
> > "Mephistopheles" > wrote in
> > message k.net...
> > > Mid-posting.
> >
> > >
> > > Why should the period of time make any difference? A fish put in a
tank
> > > for a few days may catch a disease just as easily as a fish in a tank
for
> > > a few years. In fact, if it has been there for a few years there is
> > > probably less risk of it being diseased since it has survived for
several
> > > years, been quarantined from the fish shop for several years (probably
> > > the biggest breeding grounds for diseases), and also survived the
> > > transition from LFS to hobbyist's tank.
> >
> > Just dipping a net in one tank and then another can transmit disease.
Fish
> > can also become immune to diseases but still be carriers. You can take
two
> > completely healthy fish from different tanks, put them in the same tank,
and
> > end up killing both because they are not used to the bugs the other fish
> > carries. I've noticed it more when fish from different regions or
bodies of
> > water are put together.
>
> Yes, I agree. But what does that have to do with the topic at hand?
>
> > >
> >
> > > Certainly, but both you and I know that even experienced hobbyists
have
> > > difficulty predicting how cichlids will respond to one another. Even
> > > people with the same combination of fish can have radically different
> > > experiences.
> >
> > I have only been surprised by cichlids that did not become aggressive.
An
> > experience hobbyist should know what to change to counter any unusual
> > behavior and they should accept full responsibility if they purchase
them.
> > I think cichlids are some of the easiest fish to predict and care for.
The
> > different species will show their aggression in different ways. Some
attack
> > only fish of the same species, some attack anythings in the tank.
>
> Wow! You put people like Paul Loiselle and Ad Konings to shame. You
> should right a book since you apparently are the only cichlid keeper
> on the planet who has found a fool proof method for assuring cichlid
> compatability.
>
> >
> >
> > >
> > > I really think the idea that it is some tremendous burden on an LFS to
> > > take back fish is wrong. I frequently visit my LFS looking for larger
> > > fish for my big tanks. The principal way my LFS gets large fish is
> > > through trade-ins (most distributors do not sell them -- they take too
> > > long to grow). In my experience, these fish are quickly bought after
> > > being traded in -- with the LFS making a quick profit. I suppose if
it
> > > is a very small LFS there might be a problem. But otherwise, I think
an
> > > LFS that has a flat no trade-ins policy is simply making a bad
business
> > > decision.
> >
> > How about this for an idea: The LFS can setup X number of small tanks
and
> > call it "Hobbyist Corner" or something. People wanting to sell their
fish
> > can rent one of the tanks for X dollars per month and the LFS gets a
> > percentage of the sales for providing the space, exposure, and caring
for
> > the fish. If the tanks are full the person will just have to wait. If
the
> > fish does not sell then that person has to make a choice to keep paying
for
> > the fish until it sells or finding another solution.
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Actually, I do not believe the original poster was technically
> > > "boycotting" the shop. His description simply suggests an economic
> > > decision -- he felt he would get better value by buying fish online.
> >
> > Actually, the original post did make such a reference in the last
sentence
>
> > of his post, "My LFS wont ever see another $ from me."
>
> He did not use the word "boycott", and the phrase you quote does not
> necessarily mean a boycott. A boycott is refusing to purchase, not as
> an economic decision, but as a matter of principle. He was saying
> that he would never buy from his LFS again because the higher prices
> were no longer justified by the level of service he received. That is
> not a boycott.
>
> >
> >
> > > You could make such an argument, but I do not believe it would be a
good
> > > argument. First, I can see where fry would put a significant burden
on
> > > an LFS -- as opposed to a few adult fish. With fry, one or several
tanks
> > > must be completely devoted, for an extended period of time, to these
fish
> > > alone. Moreover, many fry are not good sellers. Second, unlike
> > > compatibility issues, the production of fry is completely predictable.
> > > If you put males and females together in an appropriate setting, you
know
> > > there is a good chance they will breed. If you are not prepared to
deal
> > > with the fry yourself, you should not put your fish in that situation.
> >
> > Small fish are much more profitable than the large fish. An LFS has
more
> > potential selling hundreds of small fish like Neons for a few dollars
each
> > than one sale of a larger cichlid for $25. The economics are quite
simple.
> > They can keep 50+ Neons in a 15-gallon tank but only one adult cichlid.
The
> > neons will sell quickly whereas the adult cichlid won't.
>
> That is why you don't keep adult cichlids in 15 gallon tanks. Almost
> every LFS I have been to has small tanks for small fish, and big tanks
> for big fish. Since they already have these larger tanks set up, the
> marginal cost of adding one more fish to the tank from a trade-in is
> almost nothing to them. Thus, they will make a nice profit from a
> fish that will sell. Now, some fish won't sell. I have no problem
> with giving an LFS some latitude to screen out the duds on a
> case-by-case basis--what I most object to is blanket no trade-in
> policies.
>
>
> > Most LFS do not
> > want cichlid fry either. The majority of people buying fish are looking
for
> > color and most cichlids do not show color until they are reaching
adulthood.
> > So, the LFS has to either let the fish grow out which could take up to a
> > year, or sell the fish to the select few that know what these fish are
and
> > will become. Most rural LFS do not want to carry cichlids at all but
they
> > do because people ask for them.
>
> I agree, but am not sure of the relevance of your point to this
> discussion.
>
> >
> > The locaton of the LFS plays a major part in the decissions that must be
> > made. If you live in an area with a large population the larger fish
may
> > sell rather quickly. But, the smaller the community, the less chance
there
> > is of selling these fish. 1% of 500,000 fishkeepers is far different
than
> > 1% of 5,000.
>
> Good point. But again even in a small community I do not see that a
> blanket no trade-in policy is justified.

[Mark Stone]

"rmc" > wrote in message >...
>
> I don't think my first post was any "less-constructive" than the
> post(s) I was responding to. There were no questions about how to
> deal with any particular fish or situation in someone's aquarium. It
> was about slamming another LFS and calling for a boycott because they
> wouldn't allow the return of a full-grown aggressive species. My LFS
> stopped taking trade-ins too because the privilege was abused and they
> had too much tank space eaten up by unwanted fish. That is not enough
> justification for me to boycott that store. A store can only take so
> many killer fish and 10-inch plecos. There are many reasons to
> boycott an LFS but this isn't one of them based on the information
> given.
>
> If you were able to return $50 worth of fish to the LFS I would be
> willing to be bet you spent much more than $200 for other fish over
> time and that you have a good relationship with your store. I like it
> when I can trade fish but I also understand why a store will refuse to
> take fish. My LFS will order Trimaculata for me and will not take a
> Trimaculata back under any circumstances, but I don't go screaming
> boycott and animal abuse because of it.
>
> Yes, my first post was an attack, and if you have followed this
> person's posts over the past few months you'd know why. Whenever
> someone has a bad experience with fish that grows too large, gets too
> aggressive, or whatever, this person jumps right in and claims that
> the LFS is totally to blame and everyone should boycott the LFS
> because they are contributing to animal cruelty.
>
> My post may have been abusive but what would you call the reply that
> Sharpie got? I didn't read anything Sharpie's post to deserve
> comments like that.
>
>
> Isn't "Mephistopheles" synonymous with Satan?
>

I've known (online) Meph for many moons now and my experience with him
has been great, even when we disagree. (We have wildly divergent
opinions about the timing of partials -- and the science behind
aquarium establishment) Also, my experiences (although few) with you
have been great, too.

I keep Oscars, and here's a very practical way that I use an LFSs
return policy. Note that I always arrange for the return even prior to
the original purchase in this circumstance. As you know, Oscars are
extremely difficult to determine gender, so a common method to mate
them (create a mating pair) is to purchase 6 juvis at a time and allow
them to grow up together in a moderately sized aquarium (100 gal or so
.. .). Clearly the odds are that you have both males and females in the
mix. After your mating pair forms, the other 4 Oscars can be taken
back to the LFS. The LFS here that has performed this service for me
then sells the large Oscars (7" or so at this time) for 25 or 30
bucks. The original price (when the Os were small) is usually about $5
-- so they get quite a profit out of the deal. (One company, a
national chain with a mall outlet, tries to get $70, but I don't know
how successful they have been . . .)

So, if an LFS begins to refuse to take returns, they simply lose my
business because I need that service for the species I keep. I'm
personally not mad at them or feel like boycotting, but I simply
cannot use them any longer.

I agree with you that many times (because of different circumstances
than my Oscar example) LFSs are justified in refusing to take returns.
I believe (and you can read this at my site) that people need to spend
the time studying the species they want to keep BEFORE they buy the
equipment and the fishes, and plan carefully. (I'm actually a little
sensitive about this issue because of all the Oscars being sold to
unwary owners of 10 gallon "aquariums"). Seems to me that LFSs and
prospective fish owners need to concentrate on educating in advance
rather than scrambling to correct mistakes! (For example: Did you know
that Wal-Mart still claims that a Red Belly Pacu attains an adult size
of 10 inches?)

--Mark


Mark Stone tractorlegs at msn dot com
OSCAR Lovers! http://www.geocities.com/cichlidiot_2000/oscar.html
The ".Edu" meens i are smart.

[RedForeman ©®]

I'll agree with you, because I'm lucky enough to have taken similar action
and made an impact on my LFS...
backgroung, Saw a poor pl*co being eaten by ghost shrimp, why?? not sure...
Told the mgr and she kinda shrugged it off, and I told her that I will leave
and not come back until she got that poor pl*co out or the shrimp out... She
did after I followed her around a bit, afterwards, I mentioned that the
painted fish were a bad idea, "but they sell good", I mentioned that they
were being abused persay, injections, she stopped ordering them.... Several
weeks went by and I had went back and seen that some changes were taking
place, and talked to her a bit, became friendly, and am now frequently asked
questions re: planted tanks, cichlids, etc, or things I'm a little familiar
with... FishGirl came to my house and seen my tanks and went back telling
her mgr that I had some nice tanks, and am now regarded as a LFS friend....

Sometimes action CAN fix a bad thing, good luck to yours and your action....

[The Madd Hatter]

Thanx Meph.. Knowledge is the coin I value above all else. It is what led me
in to this hobby as a matter of fact. I was never one to keep fish because
they look "pretty".. For me its a constant lesson in ichtyology, chemistry,
physics, and behavioral science. (None of which are my field of btw).. I
didn't know that about the origins of the "madd hatter" myth. The name
appealed to me in more of a metaphorical sense. Wheareas a conventional
hatter designs and molds hats to fit a persons head and their personality, I
envisioned the hat as a cover moulded to one's mind, built of
preconceptions, and moulded to the limits of one's imagination. To me, the
Top Hat was a valiant, effort to encompass the boundless... An expercise
that leads to eccentricity, to say the least. I keep the name as a reminder
to myself, to be constantly vigilant for those limits, so I can surpass
them... Hence, you'll also never catch me dead wearing a hat. ;-)

"Mephistopheles" > wrote in
message nk.net...
> "The Madd Hatter" > wrote in
> able.rogers.com:
>
> >>
> >> Isn't "Mephistopheles" synonymous with Satan?
> >>
> >
> > Thought this was another flame attack, but I punched it into google...
> > Definition from Encyclopedia Britannica:
> >
> > "Mephistopheles, also called Mephisto, familiar spirit of the Devil
> > in late settings of the legend of Faust . It is probable that the name
> > Mephistopheles was invented for the historical Faust by the anonymous
> > author of the first Faustbuch (1587). A latecomer in the infernal
> > hierarchy, Mephistopheles never became an integral part of the
> > tradition of magic and demonology that predated him by thousands."
>
> Madd Hatter,
>
> I admire your thirst for knowledge. I personally associate
> "Mephistopheles" (as opposed to "Mephisto", et al.) with Goethe's version
> of the Faust legend, which is the version that is by far of the most
> literary importance. In it, Faust, instead of being condemned to hell
> for his dealings with the Devil in his strivings to improve his life --
> as happens in the end of the traditional more pious versions -- is
> rewarded with heavenly bliss.
>
> I assume you know the origin of the phrase "Madd Hatter"? Apart from
> Lewis Carroll, the idea that hatters would tend to be mad derives from
> the use of mercury in the making of beaver hats, I believe, in the 19th-
> century. It was not known at the time that mercury can be absorbed
> through the skin and cause neurological disorders.
>
> Cheers,
> Meph

[The Madd Hatter]

I included my response in the previous post.... Where does the racf
originate? Is it an acronym?

"Racf" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Mephistopheles" > wrote in
> message nk.net...
> > "The Madd Hatter" > wrote in
> > able.rogers.com:
> >
> > >>
> > >> Isn't "Mephistopheles" synonymous with Satan?
> > >>
> > >
> > > Thought this was another flame attack, but I punched it into
> google...
> > > Definition from Encyclopedia Britannica:
> > >
> > > "Mephistopheles, also called Mephisto, familiar spirit of the
> Devil
> > > in late settings of the legend of Faust . It is probable that the
> name
> > > Mephistopheles was invented for the historical Faust by the
> anonymous
> > > author of the first Faustbuch (1587). A latecomer in the infernal
> > > hierarchy, Mephistopheles never became an integral part of the
> > > tradition of magic and demonology that predated him by thousands."
> >
> > Madd Hatter,
> >
> > I admire your thirst for knowledge. I personally associate
> > "Mephistopheles" (as opposed to "Mephisto", et al.) with Goethe's
> version
> > of the Faust legend, which is the version that is by far of the most
> > literary importance. In it, Faust, instead of being condemned to hell
> > for his dealings with the Devil in his strivings to improve his
> life --
> > as happens in the end of the traditional more pious versions -- is
> > rewarded with heavenly bliss.
> >
> > I assume you know the origin of the phrase "Madd Hatter"? Apart from
> > Lewis Carroll, the idea that hatters would tend to be mad derives from
> > the use of mercury in the making of beaver hats, I believe, in the
> 19th-
> > century. It was not known at the time that mercury can be absorbed
> > through the skin and cause neurological disorders.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Meph
>
> Both handles are a bit unusual and stick out a bit. I wonder what was
> it about each that won you over? Were these IRC handles originally?
> Perhaps handles in network games? Just curious since we are exploring
> our roots...
>
>

[Racf]

"The Madd Hatter" > wrote in message
ble.rogers.com...
> I included my response in the previous post.... Where does the racf
> originate? Is it an acronym?
>
> "Racf" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
> >
> > "Mephistopheles" > wrote
in
> > message nk.net...
> > > "The Madd Hatter" > wrote in
> > > able.rogers.com:
> > >
> > > >>
> > > >> Isn't "Mephistopheles" synonymous with Satan?
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > Thought this was another flame attack, but I punched it into
> > google...
> > > > Definition from Encyclopedia Britannica:
> > > >
> > > > "Mephistopheles, also called Mephisto, familiar spirit of the
> > Devil
> > > > in late settings of the legend of Faust . It is probable that
the
> > name
> > > > Mephistopheles was invented for the historical Faust by the
> > anonymous
> > > > author of the first Faustbuch (1587). A latecomer in the
infernal
> > > > hierarchy, Mephistopheles never became an integral part of the
> > > > tradition of magic and demonology that predated him by
thousands."
> > >
> > > Madd Hatter,
> > >
> > > I admire your thirst for knowledge. I personally associate
> > > "Mephistopheles" (as opposed to "Mephisto", et al.) with Goethe's
> > version
> > > of the Faust legend, which is the version that is by far of the
most
> > > literary importance. In it, Faust, instead of being condemned to
hell
> > > for his dealings with the Devil in his strivings to improve his
> > life --
> > > as happens in the end of the traditional more pious versions -- is
> > > rewarded with heavenly bliss.
> > >
> > > I assume you know the origin of the phrase "Madd Hatter"? Apart
from
> > > Lewis Carroll, the idea that hatters would tend to be mad derives
from
> > > the use of mercury in the making of beaver hats, I believe, in the
> > 19th-
> > > century. It was not known at the time that mercury can be
absorbed
> > > through the skin and cause neurological disorders.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Meph
> >
> > Both handles are a bit unusual and stick out a bit. I wonder what
was
> > it about each that won you over? Were these IRC handles originally?
> > Perhaps handles in network games? Just curious since we are
exploring
> > our roots...
> >
> >
>
>

IBM's Resource Access Control Facility (RACF) from my early years.

[Mike Petro]

I have been lurking because I did want to get caught up in a flame
war. However I now feel I need to respond since "Mark (rmc)" has so
eloquently bashed me in several posts.

I am so conscientious about my fish that my wife has often said that
"when she dies she wants to come back as one of my fish". For someone
to say that I "probably shouldn't even have a fish tank" is just plain
ignorant. Sir, I appreciate your opposing point of view but I did not
appreciate your personal attacks against me....

You made so many false assumptions that it is hard to know where to
begin...

First, I do buy fish on a "temporary" basis. However, most african
cichlid enthusiasts, that do not walk on water, will have a
compatibility problem form time to time. I had put the fish in
quarantine tanks to keep them from killing each other. The only
problem was that I ran out of quarantine tanks and therefor could not
buy any new fish, since I had nowhere to quarantine the newbies. That
was why I was trying to trade them in, so I could buy new fish!

You assumed that "They probably just got fed up with this guy
bringing fish back all the time" , FYI this was the first time I ever
tried to bring a fish back to this particular LFS even though I had
bought many fish there.

You "assumed" that I "consistently buy fish and bring them back months
later for credit when I am tired of them". I do NOT return fish on a
regular basis. With the exception of relocating to a new city 2 years
ago this was the first time I needed to trade in fish in about 5
years. I usually try to find someone to just give them to, but there
are not many fish keepers in my new town. When I relocated I had to
trade in a LOT of fish so I made arrangements a month in advance with
the LFS there, no problem.

I AM generally informed about the temperament of the fish I keep. I
tend to specialize in Victorian Haps and I have read an abundance of
material on not only the fish but the ecology of the Lake as well. I
honestly believe that any cichlid keeper who does not have 20+ tanks
at their disposal will run into an issue sooner or later. These
beautiful little devils are notorious for their turf wars and
unpredictable intolerance of certain tankmates.

YES, I have been keeping fish for 30 years and in all honesty I was
shocked by the LFSs policy. In 30 years I had NEVER seen an LFS that
did not take trade-ins from established customers. Then again please
realize that I only brought in healthy specimens, I did not try to
pawn off beat up sickly half dead fish on anyone. Most would also
happily give me a token store credit for my fry.

You "assumed" that the LFS could not feasibly take them back. That is
not correct. This policy was apparently new, within the last few
weeks, and was a blanket policy that had nothing to do with available
tank space. I knew this particular LFS had several very large african
community show tanks. They prided themselves on their african section
and the adult specimens in their show tanks. I have bought several
adults from them, at a premium price. I guess I was negligent in not
calling first, but honestly I have never encountered a refusal before,
if I was unloading large numbers of fish I always made advance
arrangements. Every LFS I have dealt with has always happily given me
a credit of some sort, maybe not a lot but they did take the trade in.

My point about buying from someone else was not to "lose less money
next time" as you stated. It was simply a matter of economics, Brick
and Mortar stores cannot compete with Internet vendors based on price,
so they are forced to compete based on service, if I am not going to
get the service I need then why should I pay the premium price? Yes,
they do offer other services that are valuable, but this particular
service is one that I require if I am going to establish an ongoing
relationship with a retailer.

I did NOT call for a boycott against this store. For that matter I
intentionally never mentioned it's name, I personally just won't buy
fish there anymore. I simply choose to do my retail business with a
shop that will support my OCCASIONAL need to bring something back. I
have to question paying retail prices when I am not going to receive
the support I need. I can buy fish anywhere, but I am willing to pay
retail and support my LFS if they in turn support me with more than
JUST a sale. Otherwise I might as well just save the 60% and buy from
the breeders, they are giving the same level of support, JUST a sale.

I live in a remote area called Martinsville VA, there are no fish
stores or clubs in my town so I don't have a lot of other choices.
This particular LFS was the closest at 40 miles away, but there are
others about 70 miles away I will have to check them out. This trend
of no trade-ins will definitely cause me to shop elsewhere.....

The personal, and somewhat ignorant, attacks will definitely not earn
cichliddomain.com any of my business....

Mike Petro

remove the "filter" in my email address to reply

[Lee Crossley]

I am on disability I am confined to a wheel chair and I have
been keeping tropical fish for 30 years ! I have lots of time on my
hands but not lots of money.

However I have collected many spare aquariums & Filters &
heaters Etc.
over the years! and I have a large finished basement I use as my fish
room.

So I am willing to take in any unwanted fish you may need to
get rid of for any # of reasons !

However you would have to ship them to me at your expense.
So if any of you have fish you need to find a home for PLEASE DONT FLUSH
THEM OR DUMP THEM IN THE WILD !!! E-Mail me and let me know what you
need a home for and when you could ship them to me and I will get a tank
ready for them!

THANK YOU;
LEE CROSSLEY

PS:IF THEY ARE SICK PLEASE LET ME KNOW WHEN YOU SHIP !! I WILL TRY MY
BEST TO GET THEM BACK TO GOOD HEALTH !!!!

[rmc]

"Mike Petro" > wrote in message
...
> I have been lurking because I did want to get caught up in a flame
> war. However I now feel I need to respond since "Mark (rmc)" has so
> eloquently bashed me in several posts.


Mike, you have my sincerest apology for the false assumptions. My
bashing of you WAS NOT justified.


> First, I do buy fish on a "temporary" basis. However, most african
> cichlid enthusiasts, that do not walk on water, will have a
> compatibility problem form time to time. I had put the fish in
> quarantine tanks to keep them from killing each other. The only
> problem was that I ran out of quarantine tanks and therefor could
not
> buy any new fish, since I had nowhere to quarantine the newbies.
That
> was why I was trying to trade them in, so I could buy new fish!

If you are buying fish on a temporary basis you should try to cover
all bases before the purchase, including their next home. No one
should ever assume that the LFS will take any fish back for any reason
without asking in advance. These stores are in the business of
selling, period. Some stores are better at it than others and the
ones that fulfill our needs the best we tend to stay with. Taking
trade-ins is definitely good for customer relations but only the
stores accountant would know if it is good for business. I can only
assume that in many cases these trade-ins cost too much (in the eyes
of the bean counters) and so the policies are changing. I do agree
with some of the other posters (even Meph) that a blanket policy such
as that will do more harm than good to the store, but that is based on
opinion only and I have no facts to provide as proof.

When a store gives you 50% credit on fish to be used to buy other
products or fish at full retail it sounds like a win/win situation.
But actually, in most cases the store is giving you more for that fish
than they what they would have to pay their suppliers. Other factors
that could influence the stores decisions would be the species, size,
and quantity of the fish as well as its marketability.

Where I live, we all walk on water. It's easy since the lakes and
rivers are frozen solid for 5 months of the year. :-)


> My point about buying from someone else was not to "lose less money
> next time" as you stated. It was simply a matter of economics,
Brick
> and Mortar stores cannot compete with Internet vendors based on
price,
> so they are forced to compete based on service, if I am not going to
> get the service I need then why should I pay the premium price? Yes,
> they do offer other services that are valuable, but this particular
> service is one that I require if I am going to establish an ongoing
> relationship with a retailer.
>
> I did NOT call for a boycott against this store. For that matter I
> intentionally never mentioned it's name, I personally just won't buy
> fish there anymore. I simply choose to do my retail business with a
> shop that will support my OCCASIONAL need to bring something back. I
> have to question paying retail prices when I am not going to receive
> the support I need. I can buy fish anywhere, but I am willing to pay
> retail and support my LFS if they in turn support me with more than
> JUST a sale. Otherwise I might as well just save the 60% and buy
from
> the breeders, they are giving the same level of support, JUST a
sale.

That was a cheap shot on my part....sorry.

You have to do what works best for you and most independent LFS owners
are no different. I know you did not call for a boycott and I don't
think the term "boycott" should have entered this thread just because
your plans conflicted with the LFS policy. If the LFS does not suit
your needs then you should look elsewhere. I did, and that's how
Cichlid Domain originally got started, but I never once thought of
telling other people to boycott the LFS for not getting me the fish I
wanted, not buying my fry, or not taking a fish back. I don't shop
there for those same reasons but they still provide a good service for
many other aquarists. Who knows! Maybe the stores are doing better
without us.

Your original posts didn't bother me at all. Your goals did not mesh
with the policies of the LFS so you're taking your business elsewhere.
No big deal.....we all do that. It was one of the replies that got me
going. I get my fur raised when I see LFS bashing when both sides of
the story are not presented. I am planning on owning and operating an
LFS myself and I have done plenty of research and interviews with
other store owners and aquarists. I am more of a hobbyist at heart
but by doing the 80+ page business plan I can see things from both
perspectives. More and more people are buying their fish and
supplies through Internet-based stores and this is starting to take
it's toll on every LFS that doesn't know how to change their tactics.
Some of the online stores sell the XXXXXXX power filters for around
$40. The independent LFS has to pay $35 for that same filter from
their petstore supply warehouses. They cannot buy direct from
XXXXXXXXXX unless they place a $50,000+ order. That's not a
typo.....minimum order is $50,000. All the larger manufacturers are
going the mass-market route and it's killing the small LFS. The
larger stores are selling these products for little more than what it
costs the small stores to buy them. With sales and profits dwindling
the bean counters (loan providers and/or banks) step in and force the
owners to cut costs and raise prices. The problem is costs are cut in
the wrong places and the higher prices just push more customers away
which leads to more cost cutting and higher prices, etc. until the
store eventually closes.



> The personal, and somewhat ignorant, attacks will definitely not
earn
> cichliddomain.com any of my business....


I understand how you feel and I deserve your anger for my poor
judgment. I am not on this forum to solicit business or intentionally
cause trouble but if I see Bull Sh_t I will say Bull Sh_t and
hopefully a few will be able to avoid stepping in it. I apologize for
dragging you into this the way I did.

However, I will not apologize for believing that when people buy a pet
and take it home it becomes their responsibility to care for that pet
to the end. There are exceptions to every rule but I don't see where
petstores should be to blame for most of the animals that are abused,
wrongly released into the wild, or don't live up to the buyers
expectations. Nor do I feel the stores are morally obligated to take
back every pet for whatever reason. Obviously, poor condition and/or
misleading sales pitches are unacceptable.

I will still say that if you (figurative term) bought a fish and
couldn't handle it, it's your fault (responsibility). If the store
takes it back, great! If it doesn't...it's still your fault and your
decision as to what you will do with it, not the LFS. If you release
it into the wild you're breaking the law and it's your fault. If you
abuse it, it's your fault. If you have to give it away or sell it for
less than you paid for it, it's your decision. If you kill it
intentionally and humanly because of no other alternatives, you made a
tough decision but it's still your fault.

The most common arguments to this are that the LFS should have told
you that you are not prepared enough for this fish or that the LFS
should not even be allowed to sell that fish anyway. Like I said
before, there are exceptions to every rule but in most cases it's
simply a bunch of Bull Sh_t.

My posts were really not intended to protect or defend petstores, or
to flame you personally for ending up with an impossible fish. I have
a few undesirable ones myself. But owning a pet, no matter how big or
small, dog, cat, bird, reptile, fish, whatever, involves commitment
and responsibility. Pointing fingers and blaming others will not
change what has already happened. I'm sure you know this and I know
you did not fault the LFS because you got a mean fish but there are
far too many people that buy a pet because it's cool or trendy and
when it doesn't work out they blame everyone but themselves. I will
voice my opinion each and every time I see people blaming others for
their own actions. Again, I did not start flaming because of your
post, it was one of the replies saying that the no-trade-in policy
causes animal abuse and the store should be boycotted. I think that
just tells people that it's OK to knowingly put an Oscar in a
ten-gallon tank or worse because the LFS is to blame when something
goes wrong. I may lose some business for my way of thinking but so
far I feel fairly confident that all my fish have gone to good homes
and the people that got them knew exactly what they were getting and
what to expect.

I apologize to you and everyone else that had to endure this tread and
I will try to be more diplomatic in the future.

--

Mark
http://www.cichliddomain.com

[Mike Petro]

>Mike, you have my sincerest apology for the false assumptions. My
>bashing of you WAS NOT justified.
------------------------------------
Apology accepted. I could tell you had a pet peeve with the other
poster.


>If you are buying fish on a temporary basis you should try to cover
>all bases before the purchase, including their next home.
------------------------------------
Again, I do not buy fish on a temporary basis. I fully agree that if
someone buys a fish INTENTIONALY knowing he will not keep it then he
should not expect an LFS to belly up with open arms. When I said I put
them in quarantine tanks, it was because they developed problems after
a few months in the big community tank. They were originally purchased
as permanent residents for my 150g community tank. When they developed
territorial and prejudice issues I pulled out one of each and put him
in a 30g to keep harmony in the big tank. Unfortunately I only have 2
quarantine tanks and I really need them to be quarantine/hospital
tanks not permanent homes for wayward fish.



>No one
>should ever assume that the LFS will take any fish back for any reason
>without asking in advance.
------------------------------------
I have learned this the hard way. I consider that my big mistake was
assuming that they would provide this service. In all honesty every
single LFS I have ever dealt with in the past provided this service. I
had even seen this LFS provide the service to other customers, that is
why I was dismayed when the first time I needed help I was turned
away.


>Where I live, we all walk on water. It's easy since the lakes and
>rivers are frozen solid for 5 months of the year. :-)
------------------------------------
That was my cheap shot, sorry...



>However, I will not apologize for believing that when people buy a pet
>and take it home it becomes their responsibility to care for that pet
>to the end.
------------------------------------
Again, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I could not ever "cull" (just
a nice word for kill) a fish just because he didn't work out. I do
feel responsible for the fish's well being. That is why I was so upset
when the LFS wouldn't take the trade in. It was a service I had grown
accustomed to over the years and without that service I did not know
what to do next. That bothered me because I could never knowingly kill
the fish or release him into the wild. On the other hand I cannot
simply add another tank every time I have an unruly fish.

To be honest when the first store turned me down I started looking
around at other stores. I was turned down by 3 other stores and
finally a 4th store took the fish but would not give any credit,
couldn't really blame him though as I had never done any business with
him before. This "trend" is what concerned me and motivated the post
so that LFS owners could see some feedback about how this is perceived
by a serious hobbyist, who spends a lot of $$.

Please understand that I do NOT require other time consuming services
like water testing, nitrogen cycle education, disease identification,
hardware advice, etc. I am actually more educated about African's than
half of the folks that I buy them from. Hell, I even make my own fish
food out shrimp/peas/spirulina/agar-agar, much to my wife's annoyance!
Do you realize how hard it is to find a LFS that will sell wild caught
or even F1-F2 Victorians? Usually when I ask about buying fish that
are 2"-5" I get a blank look unless they happen to have a "trade-in".
I am simpathetic to the difficulties of the local Brick and Mortar
stores, but if they want my ongoing business and support they MUST
also provide me with service and support above and beyond what some
newbie needs when he is trying to buy his first 20g tank and wants to
put in 3 oscars, a green terror, and a snakehead. I do not require it
often but when I need it I really need it.

I will shop around, and even if I have to drive 100 miles, I will seek
out and develop a relationship with a shop that provides me with
service for the serious hobbyist. I hear there is a store in
Greensboro NC and another in Lynchburg VA that still accept trade-ins
and will special order stuff for you. In the meantime online shops are
about the only place I can find 2"--5" F1 male Haps and Peacocks!

I thought LFS owners might be interested in hearing this perspective.
Mike Petro

remove the "filter" in my email address to reply

[rmc]

"Mike Petro" > wrote in message
...

> Do you realize how hard it is to find a LFS that will sell wild
caught
> or even F1-F2 Victorians?

You'll be looking for a long time because they basically do not exist.
Very little (if any) collecting is taking place on Lake Victoria and
most of the species we recognize are believed to be extinct.

Try visiting http://cichlidfish.net/. I know Jon is very involved
with Victorian Haps and may be helpful.

--

Mark
http://www.cichliddomain.com