Kribensis Eloiris - breeding?

[Paul]

I bought my first two kribensis on the weekend from the LFS, and I
specifically asked the guy for a breeding pair. He said I would know when
they are going to breed because they would be staking out a small area of
the tank and protecting it.

Well! It didn't take very long, they have already decided on an area and are
defending it quite vigirously. The male has gone to work and excavated a
small cave under a rock. Everytime he escavates a rock, the female goes in
an inspects the new developments (It's great to watch!!).

Does anyone have any experience with breeding these dwarf cichlids?

How long will they take to spawn, given that they have started this courting
already?

Will they lay the eggs in the cave? (The LFS guy thought they would lay on a
rock or a broad-leaf plant). I guess the cave would be a safer place for
them to grow up.

Will they make good parents or will I need to do something to help keep the
fry alive?

I am really keen for some fry!!

[NetMax]

"Paul" > wrote in message
...
> I bought my first two kribensis on the weekend from the LFS, and I
> specifically asked the guy for a breeding pair. He said I would know
when
> they are going to breed because they would be staking out a small area
of
> the tank and protecting it.

Kribensis (Pelvicachromis pulcher?). They can be like the guppies of the
new world cichlids.

> Well! It didn't take very long, they have already decided on an area
and are
> defending it quite vigirously. The male has gone to work and excavated
a
> small cave under a rock. Everytime he escavates a rock, the female goes
in
> an inspects the new developments (It's great to watch!!).
>
> Does anyone have any experience with breeding these dwarf cichlids?

yes :o)

> How long will they take to spawn, given that they have started this
courting
> already?

They might have started laying eggs by the time you read this. It will
just depend on how soon the female approves the excavation, and what
condition she is in to lay eggs.

> Will they lay the eggs in the cave? (The LFS guy thought they would lay
on a
> rock or a broad-leaf plant). I guess the cave would be a safer place
for
> them to grow up.

My bet would be that the eggs are laid in the cave under the rock which
they just excavated under. Note that their criteria for spawning sites
is not always where you would like. I've used clay pots, and instead of
going inside, they sometimes go under. They do lay their eggs on a flat
surface. They might use the glass at the bottom of the tank if they get
that far ;~)

> Will they make good parents or will I need to do something to help keep
the
> fry alive?

They make excellent parents. Once the fry are free-swimming, they will
have more trouble in complete darkness, so you can give them a night
light. Everything else depends on what other fish you have in there with
them.

> I am really keen for some fry!!

Once free-swimming, you will need to feed them. Fortunately, they are a
good size, so newly hatched or frozen brine shrimp will do fine. Here is
some info:
http://www.theaquarians.net/ArticlesandWallpapers/fish_profile_kribensis.
htm

NetMax

[Paul]

>> Does anyone have any experience with breeding these dwarf cichlids?
>
>yes :o)

I knew (hoped) you would have something to say Netmax!!!

>They might have started laying eggs by the time you read this. It will
>just depend on how soon the female approves the excavation, and what
>condition she is in to lay eggs.

The excavation isn't very big, as there is not too much room between the
rock and the bottom of the glass. It is big enough for both of them to fit
in there at the same time, but only just. Will she be ok with this do you
think?
>My bet would be that the eggs are laid in the cave under the rock which
>they just excavated under. Note that their criteria for spawning sites
>is not always where you would like. I've used clay pots, and instead of
>going inside, they sometimes go under.

ha, that's funny. these two have been nice enough to dig their cave right at
the front of the tank, facing outwards, so I get a great view of their
progress.

They do lay their eggs on a flat
>surface. They might use the glass at the bottom of the tank if they get
>that far ;~)

They have managed to get to the glass quite quickly.


>They make excellent parents. Once the fry are free-swimming, they will
>have more trouble in complete darkness, so you can give them a night
>light. Everything else depends on what other fish you have in there with
>them.

how many fry do they have? I have a bollivian ram and a few Australian
Gudgeons in with them atm - neither are terribley predatory.

>http://www.theaquarians.net/ArticlesandWallpapers/fish_profile_kribensis.
>htm

will look up this link tonight when I can get past the work firewall.

[NetMax]

interspersed..
"Paul" > wrote in message
...
> >> Does anyone have any experience with breeding these dwarf cichlids?
> >
> >yes :o)
>
> I knew (hoped) you would have something to say Netmax!!!

yup, what I might lack in quality advice, I more than make up for by
being prolific ;~)

> >They might have started laying eggs by the time you read this. It
will
> >just depend on how soon the female approves the excavation, and what
> >condition she is in to lay eggs.
>
> The excavation isn't very big, as there is not too much room between
the
> rock and the bottom of the glass. It is big enough for both of them to
fit
> in there at the same time, but only just. Will she be ok with this do
you
> think?

As I remember, they only need to fit in one at a time. She lays a
'string' of eggs, moves and he fertilizes the general area.

> >My bet would be that the eggs are laid in the cave under the rock
which
> >they just excavated under. Note that their criteria for spawning
sites
> >is not always where you would like. I've used clay pots, and instead
of
> >going inside, they sometimes go under.
>
> ha, that's funny. these two have been nice enough to dig their cave
right at
> the front of the tank, facing outwards, so I get a great view of their
> progress.

Bonus, unsual, but hey, appreciate it.

> They do lay their eggs on a flat
> >surface. They might use the glass at the bottom of the tank if they
get
> >that far ;~)
>
> They have managed to get to the glass quite quickly.

The only thing I would watch for is that the rock does not collapse on
them. If you do have to move anything, be advised that they will not
care much for any of your meddling. Most of the time, their attacks are
posturing, but not always ;~) Ideally, all you need to do at this point
is leave them alone, and after the eggs are laid, feed the tank from 2
ends, so everyone can eat without the Kribs chasing them away, or having
to leave their nest unattended.

> >They make excellent parents. Once the fry are free-swimming, they
will
> >have more trouble in complete darkness, so you can give them a night
> >light. Everything else depends on what other fish you have in there
with
> >them.
>
> how many fry do they have? I have a bollivian ram and a few Australian
> Gudgeons in with them atm - neither are terribley predatory.

Number of fry? hmmm, something like 40-80 eggs, resulting in 20-40 babies
would be my expectation of the first spawn in a new tank. That's a
ballpark number. iirc, the female sometimes kicks the male out, but not
always. Boiled egg yolk is another good first fry food, but feed very
little, and you have to wait until the fry are free-swimming and they
have completly absorbed their yolk sacs. This is a good time to be
looking at your filter (ie: adding a pre-filter sponge over the intake
pipe). You don't want to be sucking up any of the fry. As well, any
reductions in the water's turbulence after the eggs hatch will facilitate
the parent's teaching the fry where they can safely swim. This is an
aspect which is often unseen in normal well-filtered aquariums. With
only a subtle twitch of a fin, unseen by the human eye, the fry can be
directed to lay flat, or advance as a school upwards towards food
sources.

ps: The first spawn is kind of like a practice run. Generally the spawn
size is smaller, the babies might not be the best genetically, the
parents can make mistakes, or even eat the eggs or fry, and other fish
can interfere in the process. The well intentioned hobbyist also makes
mistakes, messing with new foods, the tank, the filter system and the
fish. Don't worry too much about your success rate. Enjoy the show, and
almost no matter what happens, they will make more :o)

NetMax

>
>http://www.theaquarians.net/ArticlesandWallpapers/fish_profile_kribensis
..
> >htm
>
> will look up this link tonight when I can get past the work firewall.

[al]

Bottom posted


"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
> interspersed..
> "Paul" > wrote in message
> ...
> > >> Does anyone have any experience with breeding these dwarf cichlids?
> > >
> > >yes :o)
> >
> > I knew (hoped) you would have something to say Netmax!!!
>
> yup, what I might lack in quality advice, I more than make up for by
> being prolific ;~)
>
> > >They might have started laying eggs by the time you read this. It
> will
> > >just depend on how soon the female approves the excavation, and what
> > >condition she is in to lay eggs.
> >
> > The excavation isn't very big, as there is not too much room between
> the
> > rock and the bottom of the glass. It is big enough for both of them to
> fit
> > in there at the same time, but only just. Will she be ok with this do
> you
> > think?
>
> As I remember, they only need to fit in one at a time. She lays a
> 'string' of eggs, moves and he fertilizes the general area.
>
> > >My bet would be that the eggs are laid in the cave under the rock
> which
> > >they just excavated under. Note that their criteria for spawning
> sites
> > >is not always where you would like. I've used clay pots, and instead
> of
> > >going inside, they sometimes go under.
> >
> > ha, that's funny. these two have been nice enough to dig their cave
> right at
> > the front of the tank, facing outwards, so I get a great view of their
> > progress.
>
> Bonus, unsual, but hey, appreciate it.
>
> > They do lay their eggs on a flat
> > >surface. They might use the glass at the bottom of the tank if they
> get
> > >that far ;~)
> >
> > They have managed to get to the glass quite quickly.
>
> The only thing I would watch for is that the rock does not collapse on
> them. If you do have to move anything, be advised that they will not
> care much for any of your meddling. Most of the time, their attacks are
> posturing, but not always ;~) Ideally, all you need to do at this point
> is leave them alone, and after the eggs are laid, feed the tank from 2
> ends, so everyone can eat without the Kribs chasing them away, or having
> to leave their nest unattended.
>
> > >They make excellent parents. Once the fry are free-swimming, they
> will
> > >have more trouble in complete darkness, so you can give them a night
> > >light. Everything else depends on what other fish you have in there
> with
> > >them.
> >
> > how many fry do they have? I have a bollivian ram and a few Australian
> > Gudgeons in with them atm - neither are terribley predatory.
>
> Number of fry? hmmm, something like 40-80 eggs, resulting in 20-40 babies
> would be my expectation of the first spawn in a new tank. That's a
> ballpark number. iirc, the female sometimes kicks the male out, but not
> always. Boiled egg yolk is another good first fry food, but feed very
> little, and you have to wait until the fry are free-swimming and they
> have completly absorbed their yolk sacs. This is a good time to be
> looking at your filter (ie: adding a pre-filter sponge over the intake
> pipe). You don't want to be sucking up any of the fry. As well, any
> reductions in the water's turbulence after the eggs hatch will facilitate
> the parent's teaching the fry where they can safely swim. This is an
> aspect which is often unseen in normal well-filtered aquariums. With
> only a subtle twitch of a fin, unseen by the human eye, the fry can be
> directed to lay flat, or advance as a school upwards towards food
> sources.
>
> ps: The first spawn is kind of like a practice run. Generally the spawn
> size is smaller, the babies might not be the best genetically, the
> parents can make mistakes, or even eat the eggs or fry, and other fish
> can interfere in the process. The well intentioned hobbyist also makes
> mistakes, messing with new foods, the tank, the filter system and the
> fish. Don't worry too much about your success rate. Enjoy the show, and
> almost no matter what happens, they will make more :o)
>
> NetMax
>
> >
> >http://www.theaquarians.net/ArticlesandWallpapers/fish_profile_kribensis
> .
> > >htm
> >
> > will look up this link tonight when I can get past the work firewall.
>


hey Paul and NetMax,

here is a link to my pair with fry - but they are the common pelvicachromis
Pulcher variety- I used a coconut shell half
http://www3.sympatico.ca/alrostom/Kibensis/kribensis_fry.htm

I still have this pair - they are really great fish

best wishes

Al

[Paul]

NetMax wrote in message ...
Don't worry too much about your success rate. Enjoy the show, and
>almost no matter what happens, they will make more :o)
>
>NetMax
>

I think I spent about 5 hours watching them last night. the male has dug out
every little pebble he can from under the rock.. the female still seems to
be unhappy with it.. that link you posted says the female will "disapear
into the cave and reappear 5 days later with the fry" once she has laid the
eggs. at the moment, although they are both guarding the cave, one or both
will often go off for a swim around the tank. the female makes regular trips
into the cave, but doesn't stay in very long, and the male goes in
occasionally, but I think he is just trying hard to shift a few more pebbles
that won't budge.
So I guess I am waiting for the female to accept the cave still?

Also, on occasion, they will get together and one of them will "shiver" or
shake like a dog trying to shake water out of it's wet hair. It only lasts
for an instant. they've only done a couple of times each. is this a mating
thing?

[NetMax]

"Paul" > wrote in message
...
>
> NetMax wrote in message ...
> Don't worry too much about your success rate. Enjoy the show, and
> >almost no matter what happens, they will make more :o)
> >
> >NetMax
> >
>
> I think I spent about 5 hours watching them last night. the male has
dug out
> every little pebble he can from under the rock.. the female still seems
to
> be unhappy with it.. that link you posted says the female will
"disapear
> into the cave and reappear 5 days later with the fry" once she has laid
the
> eggs. at the moment, although they are both guarding the cave, one or
both
> will often go off for a swim around the tank. the female makes regular
trips
> into the cave, but doesn't stay in very long, and the male goes in
> occasionally, but I think he is just trying hard to shift a few more
pebbles
> that won't budge.

Regarding the female re-appearing after 5 days with fry, I'm sure that is
what happened to the person writing the web site. When the eggs hatch,
the babies must be moved to a pit/depression somewhere. Once they are
all safely moved, the parents will begin the process of moving them to
another pit, and so on & so on. I'm not certain of their motivation,
either not safe to stay in one spot too long, or possibility of fungus
starting from any dead fry *who knows?*. When they are moving them
around, you will typically have some opportunity to view their progress.

If anyone has first hand experience watching Krib spawns, please pipe in.
I've only spawned them 3 or 4 times, and I was not paying that close
attention to any rituals which might be unique to Kribs. All the
central/south-American substrate spawners follow a pretty typical pattern
though. The biggest difference is some types switch to a single parent
instead of both, and even then, they are not always consistant about it.
I think my Krib spawns all involved both parents.

> So I guess I am waiting for the female to accept the cave still?

She might be stalling while she prepares herself for egg-laying, or just
being a PITA to the male, who will play along for now ;~).

> Also, on occasion, they will get together and one of them will "shiver"
or
> shake like a dog trying to shake water out of it's wet hair. It only
lasts
> for an instant. they've only done a couple of times each. is this a
mating
> thing?

Think of it as a flash dance :o) Whether it's between a pair, or between
same sexed fish, I think the translation is something like "I am the one,
I am the best, do you have anything to say about it?". Between the same
sexes, it's a slap in the face dare, to get the other to fold their fins
and yield the 'alpha' rights (for a cave, spawning partner, or tank
dominance). Between a breeding pair, it's more of an affirmation, that
they are still 'bonded'. If the partner does not challenge it, then they
will be expected to deliver (their end of the spawning ritual) fairly
soon, or there might be trouble. If a pair have found compatibility, the
more aggressive of the two will expect results and only wait so long for
them. As cichlids go, Kribs are noted as being fairly benevolent (as
seen by the big size difference in sexes and they still get along). They
males will work each over a bit for rights to a female (or tank
dominance), but nothing like the females rough each other up, for rights
to a spawning site (and/or a male). The ladies can be unbelievable
vicious with each other, but once sites are settled, females can be
spawning inches from each other in relative harmony (each with their own
males). I suppose I have noticed a few unique Kribisms ;o)

NetMax

[Paul]

NetMax wrote in message >...
>
>"Paul" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> NetMax wrote in message ...
>> Don't worry too much about your success rate. Enjoy the show, and
>> >almost no matter what happens, they will make more :o)
>> >
>> >NetMax
>> >
>>
>> I think I spent about 5 hours watching them last night. the male has
>dug out
>> every little pebble he can from under the rock.. the female still seems
>to
>> be unhappy with it.. that link you posted says the female will
>"disapear
>> into the cave and reappear 5 days later with the fry" once she has laid
>the
>> eggs. at the moment, although they are both guarding the cave, one or
>both
>> will often go off for a swim around the tank. the female makes regular
>trips
>> into the cave, but doesn't stay in very long, and the male goes in
>> occasionally, but I think he is just trying hard to shift a few more
>pebbles
>> that won't budge.
>
>Regarding the female re-appearing after 5 days with fry, I'm sure that is
>what happened to the person writing the web site. When the eggs hatch,
>the babies must be moved to a pit/depression somewhere. Once they are
>all safely moved, the parents will begin the process of moving them to
>another pit, and so on & so on. I'm not certain of their motivation,
>either not safe to stay in one spot too long, or possibility of fungus
>starting from any dead fry *who knows?*. When they are moving them
>around, you will typically have some opportunity to view their progress.
>
>If anyone has first hand experience watching Krib spawns, please pipe in.
>I've only spawned them 3 or 4 times, and I was not paying that close
>attention to any rituals which might be unique to Kribs. All the
>central/south-American substrate spawners follow a pretty typical pattern
>though. The biggest difference is some types switch to a single parent
>instead of both, and even then, they are not always consistant about it.
>I think my Krib spawns all involved both parents.
>

thanks again Netmax, just one last question (for now hehe).

If they have spawned, how I can I tell? should I expect the female to remain
close to the eggs (in the cave) all the time? or is it possible they will
take turns guarding it?

thankyou for your ongoing help!

[NetMax]

"Paul" > wrote in message
...
>
> NetMax wrote in message
>...
> >
> >"Paul" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >> NetMax wrote in message ...
<snip>
>
> thanks again Netmax, just one last question (for now hehe).
>
> If they have spawned, how I can I tell? should I expect the female to
remain
> close to the eggs (in the cave) all the time? or is it possible they
will
> take turns guarding it?
>
> thankyou for your ongoing help!

After the eggs are laid, one fish will almost always be tending them,
keeping water flowing past, picking off dead eggs etc. The other will be
doing their level best to appear nonchalant, just hanging out in the
vicinity ;o) If they obviously appear to be protecting a spawning site,
it's an invitation for predators. As soon as most any fish wanders into
the spawning zone, the fish acting as the perimeter guard will quickly
drop his appearance of disinterest, chase them away, and will then
angrily pace back & forth like a dog behind a fence for a few minutes.
Depending on the fish's personality, he might leave the spawning zone
(which is about an 8" radius, or whatever they feel they can, or need to
hold) and take a run at fish targets. Kribs are generally not too bad
for this and quickly return to the spawning site to resume 'undercover'
guard duty. hth

NetMax