Father with Ich - How to treat

[Leong Goh]

My Blue Acaras have had free swimming fry for three days. Now Dad has
developed White spot. No other fish appear to have it. Father is busy
defending territory against 5 firemouths and 1 small female green terror.

Should I treat the whole 300l tank? ( Will the fry be OK ) or
Isolate the Father in my Q tank and treat him only ( Will Mum be OK
defending the fry on her own?)

Any help would be appreciated

Leong

[RedForeman ©®]

Ich seems to be brought on when stress rises, and in your case, I can't
imagine a more stressed out Acara, when defending fry, against none other
than 5, FIVE firemouths, and a GT...

yeah, I would say that would be a bit of stess, but I can't imagine how
you're gonna fix that one... I would say, "Survival of the Fittest, at it's
best" comes to mind....


"Leong Goh" > wrote in message
...
> My Blue Acaras have had free swimming fry for three days. Now Dad has
> developed White spot. No other fish appear to have it. Father is busy
> defending territory against 5 firemouths and 1 small female green terror.
>
> Should I treat the whole 300l tank? ( Will the fry be OK ) or
> Isolate the Father in my Q tank and treat him only ( Will Mum be OK
> defending the fry on her own?)
>
> Any help would be appreciated
>
> Leong
>
>

[Leong Goh]

Sure he is stressed out, but he is 2.5 times the size of the firemouths.
The GT is about .75 times the size, but is not the aggressor in this case.
He is holding them in their half of the tank very well.

He has about 5 spots now, ie more than yesterday, so I'm taking him out to
treat. I figure if I leave him, and the Ich progresses to the next stage,
the whole tank may become infected, if it isn't already. Will this effect
the pair bond?

Also in hindsight I should have designed my tank so that I could have put a
tank divider in more easily!!




"RedForeman ©®" > wrote in message
...
> Ich seems to be brought on when stress rises, and in your case, I can't
> imagine a more stressed out Acara, when defending fry, against none other
> than 5, FIVE firemouths, and a GT...
>
> yeah, I would say that would be a bit of stess, but I can't imagine how
> you're gonna fix that one... I would say, "Survival of the Fittest, at
it's
> best" comes to mind....
>
>
> "Leong Goh" > wrote in message
> ...
> > My Blue Acaras have had free swimming fry for three days. Now Dad has
> > developed White spot. No other fish appear to have it. Father is busy
> > defending territory against 5 firemouths and 1 small female green
terror.
> >
> > Should I treat the whole 300l tank? ( Will the fry be OK ) or
> > Isolate the Father in my Q tank and treat him only ( Will Mum be OK
> > defending the fry on her own?)
> >
> > Any help would be appreciated
> >
> > Leong
> >
> >
>
>

[RedForeman ©®]

you can take him out, but realize that the tank you are taking him out of is
probably already affected by it, and will worsen with his departure..

good luck, remember google is your friend, search it for ich and go to the
krib and look under diseases...

"Leong Goh" > wrote in message
...
> Sure he is stressed out, but he is 2.5 times the size of the firemouths.
> The GT is about .75 times the size, but is not the aggressor in this case.
> He is holding them in their half of the tank very well.
>
> He has about 5 spots now, ie more than yesterday, so I'm taking him out to
> treat. I figure if I leave him, and the Ich progresses to the next stage,
> the whole tank may become infected, if it isn't already. Will this effect
> the pair bond?
>
> Also in hindsight I should have designed my tank so that I could have put
a
> tank divider in more easily!!
>
>
>
>
> "RedForeman ©®" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Ich seems to be brought on when stress rises, and in your case, I can't
> > imagine a more stressed out Acara, when defending fry, against none
other
> > than 5, FIVE firemouths, and a GT...
> >
> > yeah, I would say that would be a bit of stess, but I can't imagine how
> > you're gonna fix that one... I would say, "Survival of the Fittest, at
> it's
> > best" comes to mind....
> >
> >
> > "Leong Goh" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > My Blue Acaras have had free swimming fry for three days. Now Dad has
> > > developed White spot. No other fish appear to have it. Father is
busy
> > > defending territory against 5 firemouths and 1 small female green
> terror.
> > >
> > > Should I treat the whole 300l tank? ( Will the fry be OK ) or
> > > Isolate the Father in my Q tank and treat him only ( Will Mum be OK
> > > defending the fry on her own?)
> > >
> > > Any help would be appreciated
> > >
> > > Leong
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Mephistopheles]

"RedForeman ©®" > wrote in
:

> Ich seems to be brought on when stress rises,

That is certainly one school of thought. However, I subscribe to the
school that believes ich has little run to do with stress. My fish only
get ich within a week or so of introduction of a new fish. Any exchange
of water from an infected tank can also transmit ich. In my view, fish
simply get ich when the parasite is introduced into the tank. If it is
not introduced, they will not get it. Moreover, ich does not lie dormant
-- it needs to have a fish host to survive for any length of time.

Just my view,
Meph

and in your case, I
> can't imagine a more stressed out Acara, when defending fry, against
> none other than 5, FIVE firemouths, and a GT...
>
> yeah, I would say that would be a bit of stess, but I can't imagine
> how you're gonna fix that one... I would say, "Survival of the
> Fittest, at it's best" comes to mind....
>
>
> "Leong Goh" > wrote in message
> ...
>> My Blue Acaras have had free swimming fry for three days. Now Dad
>> has developed White spot. No other fish appear to have it. Father
>> is busy defending territory against 5 firemouths and 1 small female
>> green terror.
>>
>> Should I treat the whole 300l tank? ( Will the fry be OK ) or
>> Isolate the Father in my Q tank and treat him only ( Will Mum be OK
>> defending the fry on her own?)
>>
>> Any help would be appreciated
>>
>> Leong
>>
>>
>
>

[The Madd Hatter]

this is true Meph, but I believe the stress is also a factor, as it reduces
their immune systems to a state where they are less likely to be able to
fight the disease off.
"Mephistopheles" > wrote in
message . net...
> "RedForeman ©®" > wrote in
> :
>
> > Ich seems to be brought on when stress rises,
>
> That is certainly one school of thought. However, I subscribe to the
> school that believes ich has little run to do with stress. My fish only
> get ich within a week or so of introduction of a new fish. Any exchange
> of water from an infected tank can also transmit ich. In my view, fish
> simply get ich when the parasite is introduced into the tank. If it is
> not introduced, they will not get it. Moreover, ich does not lie dormant
> -- it needs to have a fish host to survive for any length of time.
>
> Just my view,
> Meph
>
> and in your case, I
> > can't imagine a more stressed out Acara, when defending fry, against
> > none other than 5, FIVE firemouths, and a GT...
> >
> > yeah, I would say that would be a bit of stess, but I can't imagine
> > how you're gonna fix that one... I would say, "Survival of the
> > Fittest, at it's best" comes to mind....
> >
> >
> > "Leong Goh" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> My Blue Acaras have had free swimming fry for three days. Now Dad
> >> has developed White spot. No other fish appear to have it. Father
> >> is busy defending territory against 5 firemouths and 1 small female
> >> green terror.
> >>
> >> Should I treat the whole 300l tank? ( Will the fry be OK ) or
> >> Isolate the Father in my Q tank and treat him only ( Will Mum be OK
> >> defending the fry on her own?)
> >>
> >> Any help would be appreciated
> >>
> >> Leong
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>

[Mephistopheles]

"Leong Goh" > wrote in
:

> Sure he is stressed out, but he is 2.5 times the size of the
> firemouths. The GT is about .75 times the size, but is not the
> aggressor in this case. He is holding them in their half of the tank
> very well.
>
> He has about 5 spots now, ie more than yesterday, so I'm taking him
> out to treat. I figure if I leave him, and the Ich progresses to the
> next stage, the whole tank may become infected, if it isn't already.
> Will this effect the pair bond?

I would think the best course of action would be to treat the whole tank.
Removing a fish with surging hormones may cause a lot of stress.
Moreover, I cannot really imagine how the whole tank would not be
infected. I would search on Google, as redforeman suggested, for
information regarding what medications will harm fry. I would think that
something like quickcure (malachite green and formalin) would be
relatively benign for fry -- it never seems to stress any of my fish
anyway -- but I am not positive.

Meph


>
> Also in hindsight I should have designed my tank so that I could have
> put a tank divider in more easily!!
>
>
>
>
> "RedForeman ©®" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Ich seems to be brought on when stress rises, and in your case, I
>> can't imagine a more stressed out Acara, when defending fry, against
>> none other than 5, FIVE firemouths, and a GT...
>>
>> yeah, I would say that would be a bit of stess, but I can't imagine
>> how you're gonna fix that one... I would say, "Survival of the
>> Fittest, at it's best" comes to mind....
>>
>>
>> "Leong Goh" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > My Blue Acaras have had free swimming fry for three days. Now Dad
>> > has developed White spot. No other fish appear to have it. Father
>> > is busy defending territory against 5 firemouths and 1 small female
>> > green terror.
>> >
>> > Should I treat the whole 300l tank? ( Will the fry be OK ) or
>> > Isolate the Father in my Q tank and treat him only ( Will Mum be OK
>> > defending the fry on her own?)
>> >
>> > Any help would be appreciated
>> >
>> > Leong
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>

[D. J]

Just raise the tank temperature to 30C, ick will disappear right away.

I found by keeping tank temperature at 30C for 3-4 days, ick will be killed.
"Leong Goh" > wrote in message
...
> My Blue Acaras have had free swimming fry for three days. Now Dad has
> developed White spot. No other fish appear to have it. Father is busy
> defending territory against 5 firemouths and 1 small female green terror.
>
> Should I treat the whole 300l tank? ( Will the fry be OK ) or
> Isolate the Father in my Q tank and treat him only ( Will Mum be OK
> defending the fry on her own?)
>
> Any help would be appreciated
>
> Leong
>
>

[Mephistopheles]

MH,

Perhaps, but I do not believe that ich is technically a "disease" (such
as a virus, fungus, or bacteria). It is a parasite. The state of the
fish's immune system should be irrelevant to whether the parasite can
successfully infect the fish -- just as it is irrelevant to whether a
tick can parasitize a dog. I am not an expert on such matters, but that
would be my understanding.

Meph

"The Madd Hatter" > wrote in
ble.rogers.com:

> this is true Meph, but I believe the stress is also a factor, as it
> reduces their immune systems to a state where they are less likely to
> be able to fight the disease off.
> "Mephistopheles" > wrote in
> message . net...
>> "RedForeman ©®" > wrote in
>> :
>>
>> > Ich seems to be brought on when stress rises,
>>
>> That is certainly one school of thought. However, I subscribe to the
>> school that believes ich has little run to do with stress. My fish
>> only get ich within a week or so of introduction of a new fish. Any
>> exchange of water from an infected tank can also transmit ich. In my
>> view, fish simply get ich when the parasite is introduced into the
>> tank. If it is not introduced, they will not get it. Moreover, ich
>> does not lie dormant -- it needs to have a fish host to survive for
>> any length of time.
>>
>> Just my view,
>> Meph
>>
>> and in your case, I
>> > can't imagine a more stressed out Acara, when defending fry,
>> > against none other than 5, FIVE firemouths, and a GT...
>> >
>> > yeah, I would say that would be a bit of stess, but I can't imagine
>> > how you're gonna fix that one... I would say, "Survival of the
>> > Fittest, at it's best" comes to mind....
>> >
>> >
>> > "Leong Goh" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> >> My Blue Acaras have had free swimming fry for three days. Now Dad
>> >> has developed White spot. No other fish appear to have it.
>> >> Father is busy defending territory against 5 firemouths and 1
>> >> small female green terror.
>> >>
>> >> Should I treat the whole 300l tank? ( Will the fry be OK ) or
>> >> Isolate the Father in my Q tank and treat him only ( Will Mum be
>> >> OK defending the fry on her own?)
>> >>
>> >> Any help would be appreciated
>> >>
>> >> Leong
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>

[rmc]

All points made thus far have their merits. Ich is a parasite but by
the time it is noticed it is already in the latter stages of its
lifecycle and has reproduced. Therefore, the tank should be
considered infested and moving fish out of the tank before treatment
will only spread the problem to other tanks.

Ich can also be related to stress or be a secondary problem. A
healthy fish has a good slime coat that ich cannot penetrate easily.
A stressed fish has a weaker slimecoat which makes them more
susceptible. It is possible for a tank to have ich without ever
showing signs of a problem until a fish gets weak. However, once a
tank is cured properly it is not likely that ich will return unless it
is re-introduced into the tank.

Based on a study and published in TFH a few years ago: Formalin will
kill ich on contact but there is one stage in which the parasite has a
protective coating that formalin cannot get through. Malachite green
will break down that protective coating an let formalin do its job.
The article also stated that raising the temperature to 90 degrees f.
will kill all ich in all stages.

I've tried many of the ich cures only to have the problem resurface a
few weeks later. I have had the best luck using the
triple-threat......Malachite Green, Formalin (formaldehyde), and
raising the tanks temperature. Ever since I started treating ich in
this manner I do not get re-infestations unless I get new fish.

--

Mark
http://www.cichliddomain.com


"The Madd Hatter" > wrote in message
ble.rogers.com...
> this is true Meph, but I believe the stress is also a factor, as it
reduces
> their immune systems to a state where they are less likely to be
able to
> fight the disease off.
> "Mephistopheles" > wrote
in
> message . net...
> > "RedForeman ©®" > wrote in
> > :
> >
> > > Ich seems to be brought on when stress rises,
> >
> > That is certainly one school of thought. However, I subscribe to
the
> > school that believes ich has little run to do with stress. My
fish only
> > get ich within a week or so of introduction of a new fish. Any
exchange
> > of water from an infected tank can also transmit ich. In my view,
fish
> > simply get ich when the parasite is introduced into the tank. If
it is
> > not introduced, they will not get it. Moreover, ich does not lie
dormant
> > -- it needs to have a fish host to survive for any length of time.
> >
> > Just my view,
> > Meph
> >
> > and in your case, I
> > > can't imagine a more stressed out Acara, when defending fry,
against
> > > none other than 5, FIVE firemouths, and a GT...
> > >
> > > yeah, I would say that would be a bit of stess, but I can't
imagine
> > > how you're gonna fix that one... I would say, "Survival of the
> > > Fittest, at it's best" comes to mind....
> > >
> > >
> > > "Leong Goh" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > >> My Blue Acaras have had free swimming fry for three days. Now
Dad
> > >> has developed White spot. No other fish appear to have it.
Father
> > >> is busy defending territory against 5 firemouths and 1 small
female
> > >> green terror.
> > >>
> > >> Should I treat the whole 300l tank? ( Will the fry be OK ) or
> > >> Isolate the Father in my Q tank and treat him only ( Will Mum
be OK
> > >> defending the fry on her own?)
> > >>
> > >> Any help would be appreciated
> > >>
> > >> Leong
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>

[Bob K.]

>Just raise the tank temperature to 30C, ick will disappear right away.
>
>I found by keeping tank temperature at 30C for 3-4 days, ick will be killed.

ABSOLUTELY.. ICH should not be treated with ANYTHING other
than warmth (85F plus), and one teaspoon of salt per gal of water.

The largest Florida fishfarmer uses 1 tsp salt per gallon in EVERY
tank, for all their fish, all the time.

Bob

[The Madd Hatter]

Infection, or rather, infestation of the parasite, as you say should be
inevitable, regardless of the stress level, but stress level still affects
how well the fish will fight off the ensuing infections. The parasite only
stays in the fish long enough to mature and release its young (spores?)...
This is not a neccessarily fatal condition, as long as the fish doesn't
succumb to secondary effects.

You will very rarely find a parasite in nature that is consistently fatal to
its host. Its just not that viable as far as their own survival is
concerned.

"Mephistopheles" > wrote in
message k.net...
> MH,
>
> Perhaps, but I do not believe that ich is technically a "disease" (such
> as a virus, fungus, or bacteria). It is a parasite. The state of the
> fish's immune system should be irrelevant to whether the parasite can
> successfully infect the fish -- just as it is irrelevant to whether a
> tick can parasitize a dog. I am not an expert on such matters, but that
> would be my understanding.
>
> Meph
>
> "The Madd Hatter" > wrote in
> ble.rogers.com:
>
> > this is true Meph, but I believe the stress is also a factor, as it
> > reduces their immune systems to a state where they are less likely to
> > be able to fight the disease off.
> > "Mephistopheles" > wrote in
> > message . net...
> >> "RedForeman ©®" > wrote in
> >> :
> >>
> >> > Ich seems to be brought on when stress rises,
> >>
> >> That is certainly one school of thought. However, I subscribe to the
> >> school that believes ich has little run to do with stress. My fish
> >> only get ich within a week or so of introduction of a new fish. Any
> >> exchange of water from an infected tank can also transmit ich. In my
> >> view, fish simply get ich when the parasite is introduced into the
> >> tank. If it is not introduced, they will not get it. Moreover, ich
> >> does not lie dormant -- it needs to have a fish host to survive for
> >> any length of time.
> >>
> >> Just my view,
> >> Meph
> >>
> >> and in your case, I
> >> > can't imagine a more stressed out Acara, when defending fry,
> >> > against none other than 5, FIVE firemouths, and a GT...
> >> >
> >> > yeah, I would say that would be a bit of stess, but I can't imagine
> >> > how you're gonna fix that one... I would say, "Survival of the
> >> > Fittest, at it's best" comes to mind....
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > "Leong Goh" > wrote in message
> >> > ...
> >> >> My Blue Acaras have had free swimming fry for three days. Now Dad
> >> >> has developed White spot. No other fish appear to have it.
> >> >> Father is busy defending territory against 5 firemouths and 1
> >> >> small female green terror.
> >> >>
> >> >> Should I treat the whole 300l tank? ( Will the fry be OK ) or
> >> >> Isolate the Father in my Q tank and treat him only ( Will Mum be
> >> >> OK defending the fry on her own?)
> >> >>
> >> >> Any help would be appreciated
> >> >>
> >> >> Leong
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
>

[The Madd Hatter]

That is what I've found to be effective.. Though my doses of salt were a
bit lower. (I was too chicken to add more!)
"Bob K." > wrote in message
...
> >Just raise the tank temperature to 30C, ick will disappear right away.
> >
> >I found by keeping tank temperature at 30C for 3-4 days, ick will be
killed.
>
> ABSOLUTELY.. ICH should not be treated with ANYTHING other
> than warmth (85F plus), and one teaspoon of salt per gal of water.
>
> The largest Florida fishfarmer uses 1 tsp salt per gallon in EVERY
> tank, for all their fish, all the time.
>
> Bob

[Leong Goh]

Thanks for all the replies

My 300l cichlid tank is relatively new, and the fish have been in for about
2 weeks. By moving the infected fish I ended up treating both tanks.
Elevated the temp and used Malkon, (Malachite Green + Formalin) which I have
done successfully before. All white spots are now gone but I will continue
treatment for a few more days.

Any comments regarding how long to treat after white spots are gone? (
assuming use of chemicals)

"rmc" > wrote in message
...
> All points made thus far have their merits. Ich is a parasite but by
> the time it is noticed it is already in the latter stages of its
> lifecycle and has reproduced. Therefore, the tank should be
> considered infested and moving fish out of the tank before treatment
> will only spread the problem to other tanks.
>
> Ich can also be related to stress or be a secondary problem. A
> healthy fish has a good slime coat that ich cannot penetrate easily.
> A stressed fish has a weaker slimecoat which makes them more
> susceptible. It is possible for a tank to have ich without ever
> showing signs of a problem until a fish gets weak. However, once a
> tank is cured properly it is not likely that ich will return unless it
> is re-introduced into the tank.
>
> Based on a study and published in TFH a few years ago: Formalin will
> kill ich on contact but there is one stage in which the parasite has a
> protective coating that formalin cannot get through. Malachite green
> will break down that protective coating an let formalin do its job.
> The article also stated that raising the temperature to 90 degrees f.
> will kill all ich in all stages.
>
> I've tried many of the ich cures only to have the problem resurface a
> few weeks later. I have had the best luck using the
> triple-threat......Malachite Green, Formalin (formaldehyde), and
> raising the tanks temperature. Ever since I started treating ich in
> this manner I do not get re-infestations unless I get new fish.
>

[RedForeman ©®]

"Leong Goh" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks for all the replies
>
> My 300l cichlid tank is relatively new, and the fish have been in for
about
> 2 weeks. By moving the infected fish I ended up treating both tanks.
> Elevated the temp and used Malkon, (Malachite Green + Formalin) which I
have
> done successfully before. All white spots are now gone but I will continue
> treatment for a few more days.
>
> Any comments regarding how long to treat after white spots are gone? (
> assuming use of chemicals)
>
> "rmc" > wrote in message
> ...
> > All points made thus far have their merits. Ich is a parasite but by
> > the time it is noticed it is already in the latter stages of its
> > lifecycle and has reproduced. Therefore, the tank should be
> > considered infested and moving fish out of the tank before treatment
> > will only spread the problem to other tanks.
> >
> > Ich can also be related to stress or be a secondary problem. A
> > healthy fish has a good slime coat that ich cannot penetrate easily.
> > A stressed fish has a weaker slimecoat which makes them more
> > susceptible. It is possible for a tank to have ich without ever
> > showing signs of a problem until a fish gets weak. However, once a
> > tank is cured properly it is not likely that ich will return unless it
> > is re-introduced into the tank.
> >
> > Based on a study and published in TFH a few years ago: Formalin will
> > kill ich on contact but there is one stage in which the parasite has a
> > protective coating that formalin cannot get through. Malachite green
> > will break down that protective coating an let formalin do its job.
> > The article also stated that raising the temperature to 90 degrees f.
> > will kill all ich in all stages.
> >
> > I've tried many of the ich cures only to have the problem resurface a
> > few weeks later. I have had the best luck using the
> > triple-threat......Malachite Green, Formalin (formaldehyde), and
> > raising the tanks temperature. Ever since I started treating ich in
> > this manner I do not get re-infestations unless I get new fish.
> >
>
>

I continued dosage for 14 days, from beginning to end...

[fentorydekson]

Surely...........

[fentorydekson]

Surely he stressed, but his 2.5 times the size of fire mouths. GT of about 0.75 times the size, but not the aggressor in this case. He was holding them in their half of the tank is very good.But I believe that pressure is also a factor, because it reduces their immune systems and a state, they are less likely to deal with this illness.