Questions on setting up a Large tank

[David Willett]

I have designed a 2'x2'x8' wood and glass tank with a trickle filter. I am
going to be using sand as the substrait. The tank is 250+g. I am going to
use a 1/2" piece of glass for the front window. I have read about W/D
filter media and am still not clear as to how much I will need for a tank
that large. Also, how is the easiest way to heat the tank from the sump? I
was thinking of using a Hagen 901 powerhead for the return from the sump.
It is rated at 900 gph. Is this too large? So I need to have two sumps and
filters? I would like to keep a few Oscars in the tank so I know that I
will need a lot of filtration. Is there anything that I am totaly missing?
I have heard about hard-plumbing the tank for water changes and that seems
like a really good idea.

[SG]

In article <3f606747$1@shknews01>, David Willett wrote:

> I
> was thinking of using a Hagen 901 powerhead for the return from the sump.
> It is rated at 900 gph. Is this too large?

It is too small. That powerhead is rated for 900gph at zero elevation
change. You are going to move water up several feet from the sump.

You are looking at a MAG pump
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?siteid=6&pCatId=4590

Or an external pump like Little Giant
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?siteid=6&pCatId=4614

click on more information to see the flow rates at a given height
(called "Head"). A single bend in your pipe adds to the effective
height that the pump has to work against. As does small diameter
pipe. As you can see from the graphs the flow rates drop off
considerably above 5 feet.

You need to research this more. The rec.aquaria.marine.* archives at
google.com is a great place to start. Don't be surprissed if you find
yourself useing 1 inch diameter PVC with a quality external pump.



> So I need to have two sumps and
> filters?

You only need one sump. But a sump can be several connected
containers. The water flows through the wet/dry, to the heater area,
to the return area. By carefull placement of baffles you keep the
return area free of bubbles and reduce any water fall noise.

You only want a single pump in the sump system. Use gravity to move
the rest of the water



> I would like to keep a few Oscars in the tank so I know that I
> will need a lot of filtration. Is there anything that I am totaly missing?

Use a section of the sump to grow hornswort or other weed. It will
improve the water quality greatly. Run the lights on the sump for
18hours.

Did you remember to brace the floor under the tank?

--
sg

[David Willett]

"SG" > wrote in message
able.rogers.com...
> > I
> > was thinking of using a Hagen 901 powerhead for the return from the
sump.
> > It is rated at 900 gph. Is this too large?
>
> It is too small. That powerhead is rated for 900gph at zero elevation
> change. You are going to move water up several feet from the sump.

What is the gph that I want to run through my w/d? I have heard that I need
to cycle the water 3-4 times an hour. Does that mean that I need
750-1000gph going through my w/d? That seems like an aweful lot of water to
me. It seems to me that it would be a lot easier to run two smaller filters
to get this volume. What size overflow tubing do I need? Is this size
determined by the size pump that I use?

>> Is there anything that I am totaly missing?
>
[snip]
> Did you remember to brace the floor under the tank?
>
I haven't built the tank yet. I am trying to work out the specifics first.
The house that I live in now is on a concrete slab.

[The Madd Hatter]

You are looking atthe flow rate w/ --0-- head loss. How far up is the water
being pushed from the pump to the tank?? I personally don't think it is too
weak to push the system you're talking about, but it will not be the
greatest flow rate. If you decide to go w/ two pumps, don't go smaller then
the one you are talking about here... You don't need two filters, just two
pumps in the same sump, routed to opposite ends ofthe tank to create some
nice currents. Or you can go with one 1200+ pump to do it all, but using the
two is better for redundancy's sake...

"David Willett" > wrote in message
news:3f60b6de$1@shknews01...
>
> "SG" > wrote in message
> able.rogers.com...
> > > I
> > > was thinking of using a Hagen 901 powerhead for the return from the
> sump.
> > > It is rated at 900 gph. Is this too large?
> >
> > It is too small. That powerhead is rated for 900gph at zero elevation
> > change. You are going to move water up several feet from the sump.
>
> What is the gph that I want to run through my w/d? I have heard that I
need
> to cycle the water 3-4 times an hour. Does that mean that I need
> 750-1000gph going through my w/d? That seems like an aweful lot of water
to
> me. It seems to me that it would be a lot easier to run two smaller
filters
> to get this volume. What size overflow tubing do I need? Is this size
> determined by the size pump that I use?
>
> >> Is there anything that I am totaly missing?
> >
> [snip]
> > Did you remember to brace the floor under the tank?
> >
> I haven't built the tank yet. I am trying to work out the specifics
first.
> The house that I live in now is on a concrete slab.
>
>

[Bob in PA]

> Or an external pump like Little Giant
>
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?siteid=6&pCatId=4614

Most people who have had Little Giant pumps cringe when they the name being
recommended. The are infamous for the seals breaking/splitting, spilling
the oil inside into the pond/fishtank. It's a pain to clean up. I'd go
with a supreme pondmaster, or any of the magneticly driven pumps.

Hope this helps,
Bob

[SG]

In article <3f60b6de$1@shknews01>, David Willett wrote:
>
>
> What is the gph that I want to run through my w/d? I have heard that I need
> to cycle the water 3-4 times an hour.

I don't know. Reef keepers often run 10x turn over, but not all of
that is through the sump. Some circulation is just withing the tank
from powerheads.


> That seems like an aweful lot of water to
> me. It seems to me that it would be a lot easier to run two smaller filters
> to get this volume.

There is no real savings useing two smaller filters versus one larger
filter. It is just as easy to run one big filter. But as you have a
long tank it may be easier for you to run dual overflows and
filters. One at each end. You can ofcourse use multiple return pumps,
as well as multiple overflows fed into one filter. A single pump can
also feed multiple returns.


> What size overflow tubing do I need?

I haven't found a good answer to that question. The size used depends
on the flow rate. I am betting that 1.25" and 1.5" should be fine as
that is often the size used by commercial tanks. 2" could be overkill.

For a return pipe 1 or larger. 1.25" has almost twice the cross
section area of a 1" pipe so it may be worth useing that slightly
larger pipe. Avoid too many bends and other joints. Use sweep bends
over 90degree bends to get the most from your return pump.

Search google for "durso standpipe" for an excellent low noise
overflow stand pipe. It is really easy to make.

[SG]

In article . rogers.com>, The Madd Hatter wrote:

> I personally don't think it [Hagen 901] is too
> weak to push the system you're talking about, but it will not be the
> greatest flow rate.

From the specs it looks like a Hagen 901 can't push water past
2m/6ft. Remembering that bends add head (height) it is not
unreasonable to think that the pump might not work at all. The Hagens
aren't designed for this kind of work. It could work, sure. But there
are other pumps (like the mag) that were designed for lifting water.



There was another post regarding the Little Giant pump. I have lost
that article and I oppologise. I am not even sure who the author
was. I will reply here:

Thanks for the tip on the Little Giant. There are other good external
pumps. I have not used any, though Iwaki comes to mind. If you need to
move lots of water over longer distances and up heigher hights those
external pumps are usually the way to go. The higher upfront cost is
often offset by operating costs. As well the big mag drive pumps add a
lot of heat to the water which is not always desired.

[The Madd Hatter]

Its entirely possible that you are right. I don't have personal experience
w/ that pump. I use a Rio 2100, that has been awesome at pushing my water up
about 5' into my 100 Gallon w/ really great flow. I guess the distinction
here would be between a powerhead and a water pump...

"SG" > wrote in message
.rogers.com...
> In article . rogers.com>,
The Madd Hatter wrote:
>
> > I personally don't think it [Hagen 901] is too
> > weak to push the system you're talking about, but it will not be the
> > greatest flow rate.
>
> From the specs it looks like a Hagen 901 can't push water past
> 2m/6ft. Remembering that bends add head (height) it is not
> unreasonable to think that the pump might not work at all. The Hagens
> aren't designed for this kind of work. It could work, sure. But there
> are other pumps (like the mag) that were designed for lifting water.
>
>
>
> There was another post regarding the Little Giant pump. I have lost
> that article and I oppologise. I am not even sure who the author
> was. I will reply here:
>
> Thanks for the tip on the Little Giant. There are other good external
> pumps. I have not used any, though Iwaki comes to mind. If you need to
> move lots of water over longer distances and up heigher hights those
> external pumps are usually the way to go. The higher upfront cost is
> often offset by operating costs. As well the big mag drive pumps add a
> lot of heat to the water which is not always desired.

[David Willett]

Thanks for the info. At least I now have more to go on. Here is another
question about the w/d. I have seen a lot of filter pads in the drip tray
ranging from regular felt to $50 filters designed for this purpose. Would it
be possible to just use coffee filters (assuming they are the right size)?
Like I said before, I am trying to keep it as cheep as possible.


"SG" > wrote in message
.rogers.com...
> In article . rogers.com>,
The Madd Hatter wrote:
>
> > I personally don't think it [Hagen 901] is too
> > weak to push the system you're talking about, but it will not be the
> > greatest flow rate.
>
> From the specs it looks like a Hagen 901 can't push water past
> 2m/6ft. Remembering that bends add head (height) it is not
> unreasonable to think that the pump might not work at all. The Hagens
> aren't designed for this kind of work. It could work, sure. But there
> are other pumps (like the mag) that were designed for lifting water.
>
>
>
> There was another post regarding the Little Giant pump. I have lost
> that article and I oppologise. I am not even sure who the author
> was. I will reply here:
>
> Thanks for the tip on the Little Giant. There are other good external
> pumps. I have not used any, though Iwaki comes to mind. If you need to
> move lots of water over longer distances and up heigher hights those
> external pumps are usually the way to go. The higher upfront cost is
> often offset by operating costs. As well the big mag drive pumps add a
> lot of heat to the water which is not always desired.

[SG]

In article <3f66f7d2$1@shknews01>, David Willett wrote:
> Would it
> be possible to just use coffee filters (assuming they are the right size)?

I remember a thread about coffee filters a while ago. I don't remember
the specifics, but I believe someone posted saying that those filters
really didn't work.

Instead go to a fabric store and buy polyfill. Same stuff as in the
fish store. Much cheaper. You can buy it lose and in sheets. Some
posters have reported good sucess useing the sheets as a
prefilter. You want the stuff that has not been treated. Usually it is
the fill that is safe for use in baby pillows and toys.