My Kribs Spawned Twice But...

[Steve]

I set up a 10gal tank with 5 Cardinals and a pair of Kribs. I set it up for
my 10 year old son who has taken an interest in fish for some time now. I
thought Kribs would be an interesting fish for him to breed, given their
parental instincts.

Went to the LFS and picked out a plump female and a male. Although far from
full grown, I would say they were more mature juveniles. On day three of
getting them home they spawned on the inside of an inverted clay pot with
the bottom cut off. For the next 2 days the female religiously guarded and
fanned the eggs. The male didn't seem to be interested at all and just
foraged for food all day. On day 3 the eggs were gone and the female was
out looking for food with the male. No sign of any fry. I understand it is
relatively common to be unsuccessful the first time they spawn.

Within 8 days they spawned again in the same pot. I did notice a
significant difference in the male this time. He took a more active roll in
guarding the area. He even spent some time in the pot along with her (she
seemed to be ok with this). From the side of the tank I could see some of
the eggs inside the clay pot. They looked good, didn't have any signs of
fungus which led me to believe they got fertilized. The morning of day 4
the eggs were gone but the fish were tending them as usual so I thought they
were bouncing off the bottom inside the pot, not yet free swimming. Later
that day both fish were out looking for food and abandoned the pot. I have
heard that they will move the newly hatched fry to new locations but there
are no signs of this. It seems to me that one of the two (or both) ate the
eggs/newly hatched fry again.

Is this something they have to work out themselves or am I not providing the
right environment?

Set-up facts that may help:

UG filter with air risers.
Standard coarse gravel about 1/8 to 3/16" dia. Is there any way the fry got
caught up in the gravel. Although it is an UG filter, it is driven by a low
rate pump, I can't believe there is any real velocity to speak of.

pH 6.8 - 7.2
no measurable ammonia or nitrites.

Is there anything I should do differently or chalk it up to their
inexperience (or perhaps mine) and let them keep trying as is.

What a shame, they seem to make such a nice couple and get along very well.

Thanks to all,
Steve

[Sarotherodon]

"Steve" > wrote in message
news:bAp9b.465860$o%2.206055@sccrnsc02...
> I set up a 10gal tank with 5 Cardinals and a pair of Kribs. I set it up
for
> my 10 year old son who has taken an interest in fish for some time now. I
> thought Kribs would be an interesting fish for him to breed, given their
> parental instincts.
>
> Went to the LFS and picked out a plump female and a male. Although far
from
> full grown, I would say they were more mature juveniles. On day three of
> getting them home they spawned on the inside of an inverted clay pot with
> the bottom cut off. For the next 2 days the female religiously guarded
and
> fanned the eggs. The male didn't seem to be interested at all and just
> foraged for food all day. On day 3 the eggs were gone and the female was
> out looking for food with the male. No sign of any fry. I understand it
is
> relatively common to be unsuccessful the first time they spawn.
>
> Within 8 days they spawned again in the same pot. I did notice a
> significant difference in the male this time. He took a more active roll
in
> guarding the area. He even spent some time in the pot along with her (she
> seemed to be ok with this). From the side of the tank I could see some of
> the eggs inside the clay pot. They looked good, didn't have any signs of
> fungus which led me to believe they got fertilized. The morning of day 4
> the eggs were gone but the fish were tending them as usual so I thought
they
> were bouncing off the bottom inside the pot, not yet free swimming. Later
> that day both fish were out looking for food and abandoned the pot. I
have
> heard that they will move the newly hatched fry to new locations but there
> are no signs of this. It seems to me that one of the two (or both) ate
the
> eggs/newly hatched fry again.
>
> Is this something they have to work out themselves or am I not providing
the
> right environment?
>
> Set-up facts that may help:
>
> UG filter with air risers.
> Standard coarse gravel about 1/8 to 3/16" dia. Is there any way the fry
got
> caught up in the gravel. Although it is an UG filter, it is driven by a
low
> rate pump, I can't believe there is any real velocity to speak of.
>
> pH 6.8 - 7.2
> no measurable ammonia or nitrites.
>
> Is there anything I should do differently or chalk it up to their
> inexperience (or perhaps mine) and let them keep trying as is.
>
> What a shame, they seem to make such a nice couple and get along very
well.
>
> Thanks to all,
> Steve
>
I have had a pair of Kribs eat eggs twice in a row. I moved them to a
bigger tank where they spawned successfully. Many people are successful in
10 gallon tanks, so I can't be sure if the new tank or the parent's
experience was the key.
Undergravel filters, even lo flow ones, can certainly "eat" cichlid fry.
The fry are basically immobile at first and are easily sucked down.
The parents certainly mnight have eaten them, but I would use a foam filter
as a replacement for the UG if I wanted to raise the fry. Also, even fish
as small as Cardinals can eat the fry once they start swimming.
Hope this is of some help.

[NetMax]

"Steve" > wrote in message
news:bAp9b.465860$o%2.206055@sccrnsc02...
> I set up a 10gal tank with 5 Cardinals and a pair of Kribs. I set it
up for
> my 10 year old son who has taken an interest in fish for some time now.
I
> thought Kribs would be an interesting fish for him to breed, given
their
> parental instincts.
>
> Went to the LFS and picked out a plump female and a male. Although far
from
> full grown, I would say they were more mature juveniles. On day three
of
> getting them home they spawned on the inside of an inverted clay pot
with
> the bottom cut off. For the next 2 days the female religiously guarded
and
> fanned the eggs. The male didn't seem to be interested at all and just
> foraged for food all day. On day 3 the eggs were gone and the female
was
> out looking for food with the male. No sign of any fry. I understand
it is
> relatively common to be unsuccessful the first time they spawn.
>
> Within 8 days they spawned again in the same pot. I did notice a
> significant difference in the male this time. He took a more active
roll in
> guarding the area. He even spent some time in the pot along with her
(she
> seemed to be ok with this). From the side of the tank I could see some
of
> the eggs inside the clay pot. They looked good, didn't have any signs
of
> fungus which led me to believe they got fertilized. The morning of day
4
> the eggs were gone but the fish were tending them as usual so I thought
they
> were bouncing off the bottom inside the pot, not yet free swimming.
Later
> that day both fish were out looking for food and abandoned the pot. I
have
> heard that they will move the newly hatched fry to new locations but
there
> are no signs of this. It seems to me that one of the two (or both) ate
the
> eggs/newly hatched fry again.
>
> Is this something they have to work out themselves or am I not
providing the
> right environment?
>
> Set-up facts that may help:
>
> UG filter with air risers.
> Standard coarse gravel about 1/8 to 3/16" dia. Is there any way the
fry got
> caught up in the gravel. Although it is an UG filter, it is driven by
a low
> rate pump, I can't believe there is any real velocity to speak of.
>
> pH 6.8 - 7.2
> no measurable ammonia or nitrites.
>
> Is there anything I should do differently or chalk it up to their
> inexperience (or perhaps mine) and let them keep trying as is.
>
> What a shame, they seem to make such a nice couple and get along very
well.
>
> Thanks to all,
> Steve

Their first attempt went solo and the eggs never got to hatch. Their 2nd
attempt was as a pair and they might have gotten as far as the eggs
hatching. I'd say that they are making progress. One of them might have
eaten them while moving the wigglers *oops*. Hopefully the next attempt
will see them moving the fry from site to site successfully. They might
still get eaten before they are all free-swimming, so it might take yet
another go around, but that's alright, they will make more. I've never
heard of a UGF absorbing a wiggler, but anything is possible. I imagine
it would just stay under a stone until the egg sac was absorbed and it
would wiggle out (unless a stone rolled over it). Once they are
free-swimming, leave a night light on, so the Kribs can defend against
any nocturnal hunting by the tank-mates.

While it's relatively common for the first spawn to be a practice run,
it's not unusual for more 'learning' to occur with future attempts. Some
fish (like some Angelfish) never get it right, but Kribs have a
reputation for being successful. JMO

NetMax

[George]

I'd like to thank Sarotherodon and NetMax for their quick and encouraging
response.

As far as them getting caught up in the gravel, I thought of putting a
double layer of plastic screening under the pot. This should allow the UGF
to do its job yet protect the fry until they are free swimming. Sound
reasonable?

I'm actually leaning to an experience issue.

Thanks again. Any more thoughts are appreciated.

Steve

[Paul]

George wrote in message >...
>I'd like to thank Sarotherodon and NetMax for their quick and encouraging
>response.
>
>As far as them getting caught up in the gravel, I thought of putting a
>double layer of plastic screening under the pot. This should allow the UGF
>to do its job yet protect the fry until they are free swimming. Sound
>reasonable?
>
>I'm actually leaning to an experience issue.
>
>Thanks again. Any more thoughts are appreciated.
>
>Steve
>
Hi steve, nice to know someone else is having this problem!! my kribs got
together the first day in the tank, and took about 10 days to "spawn" I
could only see about two eggs, the female was in the cave tending the eggs
and the male was guarding furiously.

I looked again about 15 minutes later and the two egg sacks were gone! they
soon lost interest and abandoned the site. they are back at it now, and
hopefully will spawn again soon.

I wonder if Netmax would be good enough to answer this question for us:

Can feeding have any affect on the likelyhood of the parents eating the
eggs. I have a problem where my greedy paradise fish tend to gorge
themselves and not let any food fall down for the bottom feeders! wonder
if I need to feed her more?

[NetMax]

"Paul" > wrote in message
...
>
> George wrote in message
>...
> >I'd like to thank Sarotherodon and NetMax for their quick and
encouraging
> >response.
> >
> >As far as them getting caught up in the gravel, I thought of putting a
> >double layer of plastic screening under the pot. This should allow the
UGF
> >to do its job yet protect the fry until they are free swimming. Sound
> >reasonable?
> >
> >I'm actually leaning to an experience issue.
> >
> >Thanks again. Any more thoughts are appreciated.
> >
> >Steve
> >
> Hi steve, nice to know someone else is having this problem!! my kribs
got
> together the first day in the tank, and took about 10 days to "spawn" I
> could only see about two eggs, the female was in the cave tending the
eggs
> and the male was guarding furiously.
>
> I looked again about 15 minutes later and the two egg sacks were gone!
they
> soon lost interest and abandoned the site. they are back at it now, and
> hopefully will spawn again soon.
>
> I wonder if Netmax would be good enough to answer this question for us:
>
> Can feeding have any affect on the likelyhood of the parents eating the
> eggs. I have a problem where my greedy paradise fish tend to gorge
> themselves and not let any food fall down for the bottom feeders!
wonder
> if I need to feed her more?

Diet is a major component to successful spawns, but more usually for the
purposes of conditioning and sometimes triggering the spawn. Discussions
regarding the parents probability of eating or not eating the eggs due to
protein deficiencies in their diets has never been very conclusively
proven either way. Breeders tend to condition the parents beforehand, or
they are in known good condition. Egg eating in this case is usually
attributable to inexperience.

Breeding a pair directly from an LFS, would create some uncertainty
regarding how varied their diets would have been up to that point, and
the potential effect on the fish, to whom a freshly laid egg would be a
succulent high-protein snack. In this case, it would make sense that
there would be an increased potential for their conditioning (or lack of)
to affect spawning success, but I've never read or heard of supporting
data.

I suggest you drop some bloodworms and/or brine shrimp directly down to
the Krib's pot using a tube, like a UGF riser pipe. Removing the other
fish will also help. Covering the tank with paper (leave yourself some
peeping holes) can also help. The fish might also eat the eggs if they
think they have been discovered. Logically, there is less of a point in
protecting eggs from a large predator (you?) who knows of the egg's
existence and their location (though Kribs are not usually so timid).
Sometimes thinking like a fish gives you different scenarios, and they
are not stupid, but they can be very simple.

NetMax

[Paul]

>Diet is a major component to successful spawns, but more usually for the
>purposes of conditioning and sometimes triggering the spawn. Discussions
>regarding the parents probability of eating or not eating the eggs due to
>protein deficiencies in their diets has never been very conclusively
>proven either way. Breeders tend to condition the parents beforehand, or
>they are in known good condition. Egg eating in this case is usually
>attributable to inexperience.
>
>Breeding a pair directly from an LFS, would create some uncertainty
>regarding how varied their diets would have been up to that point, and
>the potential effect on the fish, to whom a freshly laid egg would be a
>succulent high-protein snack. In this case, it would make sense that
>there would be an increased potential for their conditioning (or lack of)
>to affect spawning success, but I've never read or heard of supporting
>data.
>
>I suggest you drop some bloodworms and/or brine shrimp directly down to
>the Krib's pot using a tube, like a UGF riser pipe. Removing the other
>fish will also help. Covering the tank with paper (leave yourself some
>peeping holes) can also help. The fish might also eat the eggs if they
>think they have been discovered. Logically, there is less of a point in
>protecting eggs from a large predator (you?) who knows of the egg's
>existence and their location (though Kribs are not usually so timid).
>Sometimes thinking like a fish gives you different scenarios, and they
>are not stupid, but they can be very simple.
>
>NetMax
>


you raise some interesting points there Netmax...

firstly, I have been feeding my fish on large,high protien pellets that I
have been breaking up into little bits. the bits vary from powder to 1mm
size, I just drop two crushed up pellets in a day, and feed some flakes for
the top feeding fish. I am reluctant to put any more than this in because
the paradise fish eat so much that they are gorged to the point that they
look like they will explode (they don't have bloat as the buldge is gone the
next day).
My female krib is a very small fish, and I would assume that she doesn't
really need to eat much to fill her up, she doesn't eat very much of the
food at feeding time, but spends alot of time grazing amongst the rocks for
food afterwards. She picks at my plants as well... I will however grab some
blood worms tonight and giver her a top up.

the other point you raise alarms me a bit. this is something I never thought
about but I agree that it sounds like it could be a prob. their cave is
right at the front of the tank and I can see straight down into it. when
they are in the cave they often seem to be looking straight up at me, almost
with a scared look on their faces (I think the scared look is just my
imagination). I have a habit of eying the cave with my face very close to
the tank, so it would only be 10 centimetres away from them. I must stop
doing this I think.

I will give them another go at the site where they are, and then I think I
need to consider filling the cave and providing a pot etc somewhere else a
bit more private. I will have to weigh up disturbing their happy home and
making them relocate vs leaving them in their "exposed" home. (he worked so
hard on that home!!)

what do you reckon?

[NetMax]

"Paul" > wrote in message
...
<snip>

> I will give them another go at the site where they are, and then I
think I
> need to consider filling the cave and providing a pot etc somewhere
else a
> bit more private. I will have to weigh up disturbing their happy home
and
> making them relocate vs leaving them in their "exposed" home. (he
worked so
> hard on that home!!)
>
> what do you reckon?

They might become accustomed to your close proximity, so it's all a bit
of an experiment, where you can do many things to improve your odds, and
there is never 100% certainty. One thing that I've noticed with Kribs,
is that they choose their sites, and are not overly influenced by your
opinion of the ideal surface in the ideal spot ;~). Give them a clay pot
in a secluded area, and they will just as likely lay their eggs in a
tunnel under a rock, under your filter siphon.

NetMax