Bye bye tetras

[Reel McKoi[_10_]]

Well they're dying right on time as I feared. The advice I got here that
they adapt to hard alkaline water isn't true, as least not for us here in
middle TN. I should have known better not to buy them, as it was their
death sentence and a waste of money. I'm down to 7 neons from a dozen, and
3 of the 5 black neons died. Two of the lemon tetras also died and 1
Sherpae.

So far the rest look fine.

Ammonia - 0
Nitrate - 20
Nitrite - 0
Hardness - 150 ppm
Alk - 180
PH - 8.4

I was told by the owner of one place that all the shops in this area keep
the PH at 7 as it's best for most fish. But it's presenting problems when
people get their fish home. The PH from our taps here is way higher, and
the fish are not always adapting. I mean, from a PH of 7 to PHs as high as
7.8 to 8.4? Now, get this, before they'll make good on the fish you have to
bring in water samples. Is this for real? Anyone can adulterate the water
before bringing it in for them to check. These fish kept at 7 at the
wholesalers and pet stores are going to have a adapt to water many many
times more alkaline then they've been kept in for who knows how
long......... it's bad news.
--

RM....
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö>

[atomweaver]

top-posting repaired.

"Jeffrey St. Clair, Ph.D." > wrote in
:
> "Reel McKoi" > wrote in message
> ...

>> I was told by the owner of one place that all the shops in this area
>> keep the PH at 7 as it's best for most fish. But it's presenting
>> problems when people get their fish home. The PH from our taps here
>> is way higher, and the fish are not always adapting. I mean, from a
>> PH of 7 to PHs as high as 7.8 to 8.4? Now, get this, before they'll
>> make good on the fish you have to bring in water samples. Is this for
>> real? Anyone can adulterate the water before bringing it in for them
>> to check. These fish kept at 7 at the wholesalers and pet stores are
>> going to have a adapt to water many many times more alkaline then
>> they've been kept in for who knows how long......... it's bad news.
>> --

> Why not buy a neutralizer, such as this one? :)
>
> http://www.petsolutions.com/Neutral-Regulator+I10103060+C48.aspx
>

With his hardness and alkalinity, the water is fairly well buffered against
pH changes. It'd be hard/expensive to treat with chemicals to get it down
to the pH 7 that the store is at. pH 8.0 is 10x more alkaline than pH 7.0.

If you _really_ want to keep pH neutral, or fish that like soft, acidic
water, you'll probably need to get an RO/DI unit, and make up water to your
deisred pH by mixing RO with tap water. (Of course, that purchase puts
your feet firmly on the road to keeping either discus, or a reef tank...
but there are worse fates in life ;-)

If it were me, I'd go with the flow, and set up an African rift lake tank,
instead...

DaveZ

[Reel McKoi[_10_]]

"Jeffrey St. Clair, Ph.D." > wrote in
message ...
> Why not buy a neutralizer, such as this one? :)
>
> http://www.petsolutions.com/Neutral-Regulator+I10103060+C48.aspx
==============================
Because they've been around for a long time, most people have tried them and
they're a waste of time and money. You get PH instability. It goes up and
down, then up again. That's worse for the fish. None of these products
work as advertised for obvious reasons. Then, if you can keep the PH jump
within reason, you have more serious instability when you do water changes.
It's a lot easier to raise PH than lower it. Been there, done that,... they
wont get my $$$ agian.
--

RM....
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö>

[Reel McKoi[_10_]]

"atomweaver" > wrote in message
...
>
> With his hardness and alkalinity, the water is fairly well buffered
> against
> pH changes. It'd be hard/expensive to treat with chemicals to get it down
> to the pH 7 that the store is at. pH 8.0 is 10x more alkaline than pH
> 7.0.

There you go my friend. Those I know here have given up trying to lower our
PH.

> If you _really_ want to keep pH neutral, or fish that like soft, acidic
> water, you'll probably need to get an RO/DI unit, and make up water to
> your
> deisred pH by mixing RO with tap water. (Of course, that purchase puts
> your feet firmly on the road to keeping either discus, or a reef tank...
> but there are worse fates in life ;-)

If you have the income for such things. :-)) Us retired folk have to watch
our pennies. The people in one shop are recommending using those jugs of
water from the grocery store to dilute the water in their tanks to soften it
and lower the PH. But those bottles are $1 each. Ok for a small tank
maybe, but when you have 20s and over you're looking at a serious cost here.
:(

> If it were me, I'd go with the flow, and set up an African rift lake tank,
> instead...
>
> DaveZ

I had them already and yes, they THRIVED and reproduced to the point the
local market was flooded with fry I sold or traded them. My only complaints
with them was the constant fighting and they size they reach - some were
over 6" long when I sold them. Evan an all male tank can become WWIII.
There are smaller varieties of Africans but none are peaceful that I know
of. I'm going to see how the groumies do. I may have to just give up on
the pretty schools of tetras I had my heart set on. :*(
--

RM....
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö>

[Reel McKoi[_10_]]

"Jeffrey St. Clair, Ph.D." > wrote in
message ...
> Yea, I've never had to make that huge a jump from 8.4 to 7.0, usually only
> 7.4 to 7.0 using a phosphate buffer which is stable but not a good idea if
> you have live plants like you do. :)
>
> What size tank did you to the africans in?

They were in both 55s and a 30g long. Fry were raised in 10s.

They need at least a 4 foot long
> tank to swim. Anything shorter and even overstocking them won't ease
> aggression. :(

You got that right. It wasn't very relaxing watching them.

If you have a 55 gallon and slightly overstock with lots of
> caves, like with holey rock, agression usualy doesn't exist as they're
> used to crowds in the lake. :)

All three tanks were full of limestone and shale caves. They'd fight like
hell over the caves even though there were more caves than fish. Crowding
doesn't always help I found and they do get large. Now I'm looking for
communities of smaller fish that get along. I'm going to so some boning up
on fish that like hard alkaline water.
;-)


--

RM....
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö>

[Larry Blanchard]

On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 13:56:59 -0500, Reel McKoi wrote:

> I had them already and yes, they THRIVED and reproduced to the point the
> local market was flooded with fry I sold or traded them. My only complaints
> with them was the constant fighting and they size they reach - some were
> over 6" long when I sold them. Evan an all male tank can become WWIII.
> There are smaller varieties of Africans but none are peaceful that I know
> of. I'm going to see how the groumies do. I may have to just give up on
> the pretty schools of tetras I had my heart set on. :*(

Try rainbowfish instead. Most of them like the hard alkaline water (I
have it too) and there's a lot of beautiful varieties. Do a Google on
"Home of the Rainbowfish" Males flashing the stripe that runs from the
nose to the dorsal fin are a sight to behold.

[Reel McKoi[_10_]]

"Steve Wolstenholme" > wrote in message
...
> On the other hand, some of us keep fishes that prefer high pH. pH 8.0
> is ideal for the fishes that I keep.
>
==========================
What fish are you keeping? I already have a small group of colorful platys.
They love hard alkaline water. I don't want guppies because they breed like
there's no tomorrow. Swords jump and the males harass the platys.
--
RM....
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö>

[Reel McKoi[_10_]]

"Larry Blanchard" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 13:56:59 -0500, Reel McKoi wrote:
>
>> I had them already and yes, they THRIVED and reproduced to the point the
>> local market was flooded with fry I sold or traded them. My only
>> complaints
>> with them was the constant fighting and they size they reach - some were
>> over 6" long when I sold them. Evan an all male tank can become WWIII.
>> There are smaller varieties of Africans but none are peaceful that I know
>> of. I'm going to see how the groumies do. I may have to just give up on
>> the pretty schools of tetras I had my heart set on. :*(
>
> Try rainbowfish instead.

Gil already mentioned them but I can't find them anywhere here and wont
mail-order fish.

Most of them like the hard alkaline water (I
> have it too) and there's a lot of beautiful varieties. Do a Google on
> "Home of the Rainbowfish" Males flashing the stripe that runs from the
> nose to the dorsal fin are a sight to behold.

What chain carries them were you live?
--

RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö>

[Larry Blanchard]

On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 18:14:22 -0500, Reel McKoi wrote:

>> Try rainbowfish instead.
>
> Gil already mentioned them but I can't find them anywhere here and wont
> mail-order fish.
>
> Most of them like the hard alkaline water (I
>> have it too) and there's a lot of beautiful varieties. Do a Google on
>> "Home of the Rainbowfish" Males flashing the stripe that runs from the
>> nose to the dorsal fin are a sight to behold.
>
> What chain carries them were you live?

You may find Dwarf neon rainbows at Petsmart from time to time. I've even
seen McCullochi rainbows there once, but the manager bought them for his
tanks :-).

I've found Boesmani and Batanta Island rainbows at a LFS and I don't live
in a large city.

For others, yes, I have ordered some forktailed blue-eyes via the mail.
You just have to be careful who you order from. I got mine from a small
vendor who even threw in a few extras, but he's out of business now.

There's a vendor on Aquabid ("rarefishatlax") who carries only rainbows,
but I've heard conflicting reports about him. And he's expensive. But he
does have the biggest selection of rainbows I've seen anywhere.

[Larry Blanchard]

On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 01:25:59 -0500, Jeffrey St. Clair, Ph.D. wrote:

>
> "Reel McKoi" > wrote in message
> ...
>> I'm going to so some boning up on fish that like hard alkaline water.
>> ;-)
>
> The Lamprichthys species of Killifish love hard alkaline water, very
> peaceful and colorful too. :)

Another thought would be the Brichardi group of cichlids. They are
schooling fish and pretty non-agressive. I considered those before I
decided on rainbows.

[Reel McKoi[_10_]]

"Larry Blanchard" > wrote in message
...
>> What chain carries them were you live?
>
> You may find Dwarf neon rainbows at Petsmart from time to time. I've even
> seen McCullochi rainbows there once, but the manager bought them for his
> tanks :-).

PetsMart is where I get most of my fish. We're getting a brand new store
closer to where I live. Maybe they'll have them.

> I've found Boesmani and Batanta Island rainbows at a LFS and I don't live
> in a large city.
> For others, yes, I have ordered some forktailed blue-eyes via the mail.
> You just have to be careful who you order from. I got mine from a small
> vendor who even threw in a few extras, but he's out of business now.

I read somewhere that the shipping can cost more than the fish and deaths
were high. Was that your experience?

> There's a vendor on Aquabid ("rarefishatlax") who carries only rainbows,
> but I've heard conflicting reports about him. And he's expensive. But he
> does have the biggest selection of rainbows I've seen anywhere.

I'd rather not buy sight unseen. There's a large private aquarium store in
a nearby city I may check out but the prices there are astronomical. You pay
dearly for the good service they give you and all the employees are very
knowledgeable. It's really for yuppies with loads of disposable income.
;-)
--
RM....
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö>

[Reel McKoi[_10_]]

"Jeffrey St. Clair, Ph.D." > wrote in
message ...
>
> "Reel McKoi" > wrote in message
> ...
>> I'm going to so some boning up on fish that like hard alkaline water.
>> ;-)
>
> The Lamprichthys species of Killifish love hard alkaline water, very
> peaceful and colorful too. :)
==============================
The only killifish I've see here are a plain silvery fish with very little
color. I've seen some that look like bait fish. Aren't killifish short
lived? The chains carry a lot of fish but not many are colorful like the
tetras. The African cichlids are very colorful but I don't want to go that
route again. SA cichilds also get large and aggressive. I'm rethinking
setting the second 55g tank up now. I'm very limited in what I can keep,
what will thrive in the liquid rock that comes from my tap. :*(
--

RM....
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö>

[Reel McKoi[_10_]]

"Larry Blanchard" > wrote in message
...
>
> Another thought would be the Brichardi group of cichlids. They are
> schooling fish and pretty non-agressive. I considered those before I
> decided on rainbows.
=======================
I never had these fish but know what they are. What happens when they
decide to breed? That's usually when the problems start with those fish
that care for their eggs and young. Egg scatterers don't bother the other
fish, they just spawn and ignore or eat their own eggs and fry. I may have
to give up on my dreams of small colorful schooling peaceful fish. I know I
did some years back when they never lasted long. I don't know what I was
thinking to try again.........
--

RM....
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö>

[Reel McKoi[_10_]]

"Jeffrey St. Clair, Ph.D." > wrote in
message ...
> There's a couple that are bland, but the majority of the 1200+ species are
> extremely colorful and they live around 2 - 3 years. They're very
> popular, rivaling cichlids I would say. :) Here's some links to get some
> ideas of color, etc. :) The last link is the American Flag Killie, which
> also loves hard water. :)
>
> http://new.killi.net/
> http://www.aka.org
> http://aquatab.net/_files/Image/clanky/jordanella-1.jpg
=================================
Very beautiful fish. I've never once seen any in any of the shops here, even
the mom and pop places. I don't remember seeing them in NYC either.
--
RM....
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö>

[Larry Blanchard]

On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 11:28:36 -0500, Reel McKoi wrote:

>> I've found Boesmani and Batanta Island rainbows at a LFS and I don't live
>> in a large city.
>> For others, yes, I have ordered some forktailed blue-eyes via the mail.
>> You just have to be careful who you order from. I got mine from a small
>> vendor who even threw in a few extras, but he's out of business now.
>
> I read somewhere that the shipping can cost more than the fish and deaths
> were high. Was that your experience?

One time probably isn't a good sample, but all my fish arrived healthy.
The vendor even threw in 5 White Clouds just because he had a bunch. One
of them died about a month later, but the other 4 are still going strong
over a year later. The forktailed blue-eyes have even bred, but they ate
the fry as soon as they hatched.

[Larry Blanchard]

On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 20:32:25 -0700, Larry Blanchard wrote:

> On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 11:28:36 -0500, Reel McKoi wrote:
>
>> I read somewhere that the shipping can cost more than the fish and deaths
>> were high. Was that your experience?
>
> One time probably isn't a good sample, but all my fish arrived healthy.
> The vendor even threw in 5 White Clouds just because he had a bunch. One
> of them died about a month later, but the other 4 are still going strong
> over a year later. The forktailed blue-eyes have even bred, but they ate
> the fry as soon as they hatched.

I just noticed I didn't mention cost. IIRC, it was about the same as the
fish. Some places will offer lower shipping but with no warranty on live
arrival.

But shipping is also included in the price from the LFS, although they
undoubtedly get a quantity break on the cost.

[Reel McKoi[_10_]]

"Larry Blanchard" > wrote in message
...
> I just noticed I didn't mention cost. IIRC, it was about the same as the
> fish. Some places will offer lower shipping but with no warranty on live
> arrival.
>
> But shipping is also included in the price from the LFS, although they
> undoubtedly get a quantity break on the cost.
===============================
So a fish that cost $5.00 at the LFS will be $5.00 shipped postage included?

I'm not buying anything until I know what's killing all these fish. I'm
getting contradictory PH readings with the different kits. I'm sure none are
accurate. I lost several more fish in the past 24 hours and the clown
loaches, although active, are not eating. I did several water changes, the
Nitrate is down below 20, the water crystal clear with no yellow cast... and
still they continue to die and die quickly without lingering. I was able to
see two of them die. They start to act and swim a bit crazily, then fall to
the bottom and are soon dead.
--

RM....
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö>

[Steven Schneider]

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Hash: SHA1

* Reel McKoi > [2007-10-14]:
>
> "Larry Blanchard" > wrote in message
> ...
....
>>
>> But shipping is also included in the price from the LFS, although they
>> undoubtedly get a quantity break on the cost.
....
>
> I'm not buying anything until I know what's killing all these fish. I'm
> getting contradictory PH readings with the different kits. I'm sure none are
> accurate. I lost several more fish in the past 24 hours and the clown

I wish I could offer some insight to help you solve your fish
problem. I'm sorry to hear that all of your fish are dying though.
Hopefully you can figure out what it is soon.

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--
W. Steven Schneider >
Key ID: Key Fingerprint: GnuPG
0xD3378BA8 39D5 CA7B 4646 0C0D 6667 http://www.gnupg.org
BB51 C898 1345 D337 8BA8

[Larry Blanchard]

On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 12:32:09 -0500, Reel McKoi wrote:

>
> So a fish that cost $5.00 at the LFS will be $5.00 shipped postage included?
>

No, because the LFS does get a break on the shipping.

On Aquabid, 6 M. herbertaxelrodii cost $40. The shipping is $42. That's overnight
by Fedex. So
that's $13.67 per fish. If you could find them at a local
store, which is highly unlikely, they'd probably be about $10.00 each.

> I'm not buying anything until I know what's killing all these fish. I'm
> getting contradictory PH readings with the different kits. I'm sure none are
> accurate. I lost several more fish in the past 24 hours and the clown
> loaches, although active, are not eating. I did several water changes, the
> Nitrate is down below 20, the water crystal clear with no yellow cast... and
> still they continue to die and die quickly without lingering. I was able to
> see two of them die. They start to act and swim a bit crazily, then fall to
> the bottom and are soon dead.

That's strange. I suspect some chemical in the water that doesn't belong
there. I have some redeye tetras in one of my tanks and while they don't
breed in the hard alkaline water, they've survived and grown quite well
for the last 2 years. Ask your water company for a chemical analysis
- most have them available, sometimes even online.

[Reel McKoi[_10_]]

"Steven Schneider" > wrote in message
...
>
> I wish I could offer some insight to help you solve your fish
> problem. I'm sorry to hear that all of your fish are dying though.
> Hopefully you can figure out what it is soon.
============================
It's very frustrating. I've had aquariums since I was a kid and never
experienced anything like this before.
--
RM....
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö>

[Reel McKoi[_10_]]

"Larry Blanchard" > wrote in message
...
>
> That's strange. I suspect some chemical in the water that doesn't belong
> there.

The only chemical is pure Sodium Thiosulfate to remove the chlorine. I
added some pure salt this time. I don't usually use salt in my aquariums.

I have some redeye tetras in one of my tanks and while they don't
> breed in the hard alkaline water, they've survived and grown quite well
> for the last 2 years. Ask your water company for a chemical analysis
> - most have them available, sometimes even online.

I just may give them a call this week. We get a water report once a year
and I saw nothing unusual in the last report.
--

RM....
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö>

[Reel McKoi[_10_]]

"Jeffrey St. Clair, Ph.D." > wrote in
message ...
>
> "Reel McKoi" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> I just may give them a call this week. We get a water report once a year
>> and I saw nothing unusual in the last report.
>
> Just FYI - You could run a quick water test as well, this all-in-one does
> the standard ones as well as tests for harmful bacteria, pesticides and
> lead.
>
> http://www.discovertesting.com/
======================================
Excellent suggestion for those with $149.00 to spend on their fish hobby.
I'm retired with no income at all and my husband is semi-retired so our
income is limited now. Next spring we'll both be on S.S. with no pensions.

The tropical fish hobby use to be a good hobby for all income levels. Now
it's becoming a hobby for people of means.
--
RM....
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö>

[Reel McKoi[_10_]]

"Jeffrey St. Clair, Ph.D." > wrote in
message ...
> My apologies, I was referring to the $19.95 kit. :)
>
=============================
Oh! I missed the most obvious. :-D

I just got off the phone with the water company. He had the same readings
on the water leaving the plant except for the PH. It leaves the plant at 7.2
to 7.3 with phosphate added to keep pipe corrosion to a minimum. The phos'
reading he had was 1.0. He said no way to PH 8.2 . I can only assume that
the test tape is inaccurate on PH. The Tetra kit gives me a reading of 7.8
and the strips 8.2 to 8.3. He said the severe drought is raising the
alkalinity and hardness....
--
RM....
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö>

[Larry Blanchard]

On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 14:56:28 -0500, Reel McKoi wrote:

> I just got off the phone with the water company. He had the same readings
> on the water leaving the plant except for the PH. It leaves the plant at 7.2
> to 7.3 with phosphate added to keep pipe corrosion to a minimum. The phos'
> reading he had was 1.0. He said no way to PH 8.2 . I can only assume that
> the test tape is inaccurate on PH. The Tetra kit gives me a reading of 7.8
> and the strips 8.2 to 8.3. He said the severe drought is raising the
> alkalinity and hardness....

I was thinking more of things like copper, lead, zinc, PCBs, etc.. Our
water company has reports on every well that specify about 25 different
chemicals and minerals. I looked for one to post but I guess I must have
deleted it.

Could it be a lack of dissolved oxygen or too high a CO2 level? I know
that's reaching but you've really got a strange situation there.

P.S. We're retired too, so I know about budget problems :-).

[Reel McKoi[_10_]]

"Jeffrey St. Clair, Ph.D." > wrote in
message ...
>
> You might want to test the pH around the house, I get different pH
> readings depending on which sink I'm at. My kitchen sink gives me about
> 6.4 whereas my bathroom sink shows 7.6. It works out great because my
> discus tank is close to the kitchen and my african cichlids are close to
> the bathroom sink. ;-)
=============================
How on earth can you be getting such a difference in the same house? Our
water comes into house and branches off three ways. There's nothing to
change the PH in the different sinks. All the pipes are that white plastic
stuff. I may try it but it sounds incredible?!?!?!?!?
--

RM....
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö>

[Reel McKoi[_10_]]

"Larry Blanchard" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 14:56:28 -0500, Reel McKoi wrote:
>
>> I just got off the phone with the water company. He had the same
>> readings
>> on the water leaving the plant except for the PH. It leaves the plant at
>> 7.2
>> to 7.3 with phosphate added to keep pipe corrosion to a minimum. The
>> phos'
>> reading he had was 1.0. He said no way to PH 8.2 . I can only assume
>> that
>> the test tape is inaccurate on PH. The Tetra kit gives me a reading of
>> 7.8
>> and the strips 8.2 to 8.3. He said the severe drought is raising the
>> alkalinity and hardness....
>
> I was thinking more of things like copper, lead, zinc, PCBs, etc.. Our
> water company has reports on every well that specify about 25 different
> chemicals and minerals. I looked for one to post but I guess I must have
> deleted it.

We get that report in the mail once a year listing a load of things. He said
there is no lead in the water and all other readings were in the safe zone.
Our water comes from a deep well out in the country.

> Could it be a lack of dissolved oxygen or too high a CO2 level? I know
> that's reaching but you've really got a strange situation there.

The filter is an Aquaclear running 24/7 so oxygen shouldn't be a problem.
Where would the CO2 come from? He did say the load of plants can and will
raise the PH - I knew about that already. I think there's some other
problem here. You would think it would affect the platy fry but all three
are growing like weeds.

Tonight I spotted a white patch on one of the older platys that looks like a
parasitic disease but because of the Clown Loaches I don't know what would
be safe to use. Those that died definitely didn't show any signs of
parasites or disease. No flashing and all were eating. This really has me
stumped.

> P.S. We're retired too, so I know about budget problems :-).

It's a bummer....... :-|
--

RM....
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö>