Water Change Fish Loss?

[StringerBell]

I`m really bummed.

I think I might have unknowingly siphoned a Scooter Blenny out of my tank
during a water change, is this possible?

The other possibility is that I might have disrupted the DSB a bit when
cleaning out some Macro Algae. Could this release ammonia into the tank
bottom where the Blenny inhabits?

I havent seen a body yet............

[Pszemol]

"StringerBell" > wrote in message ...
> I`m really bummed.
>
> I think I might have unknowingly siphoned a Scooter Blenny out of my tank
> during a water change, is this possible?
>
> The other possibility is that I might have disrupted the DSB a bit when
> cleaning out some Macro Algae. Could this release ammonia into the tank
> bottom where the Blenny inhabits?
>
> I havent seen a body yet............

How do you do your water change?
Where do you collect the dirty water?
I collect dirty water to a Instant Ocean salt bucket
and always inspect the water to put back to the tank
some snails or micro-hermit crabs back to the tank...

How long is the fish unseen? Maybe just hidding somewhere?

[jthread]

"Pszemol" > wrote in message
...
> "StringerBell" > wrote in message
> ...
>> I`m really bummed.
>>
>> I think I might have unknowingly siphoned a Scooter Blenny out of my tank
>> during a water change, is this possible?
>>
>> The other possibility is that I might have disrupted the DSB a bit when
>> cleaning out some Macro Algae. Could this release ammonia into the tank
>> bottom where the Blenny inhabits?
>>
>> I havent seen a body yet............
>
> How do you do your water change?
> Where do you collect the dirty water?
> I collect dirty water to a Instant Ocean salt bucket
> and always inspect the water to put back to the tank
> some snails or micro-hermit crabs back to the tank...
>

Interesting. I use a pump with a cover over the intake to change water. I
guess that keeps me ftrom sucking up my pets too. But it doesn't help when I
vacuum.

Anyone else do this?
--
Jim

What was the best thing before sliced bread?

[George Patterson]

jthread wrote:

> Anyone else do this?

I have a python and syphon the water out into a sink downstairs. I use a sock
over the python to keep my critters out of the intake.

George Patterson
Worry doesn't improve the future; it just ruins the present.

[Wayne Sallee]

Don't vacume your substrate.

Wayne Sallee



jthread wrote on 11/18/2007 6:56 PM:
> "Pszemol" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "StringerBell" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> I`m really bummed.
>>>
>>> I think I might have unknowingly siphoned a Scooter Blenny out of my tank
>>> during a water change, is this possible?
>>>
>>> The other possibility is that I might have disrupted the DSB a bit when
>>> cleaning out some Macro Algae. Could this release ammonia into the tank
>>> bottom where the Blenny inhabits?
>>>
>>> I havent seen a body yet............
>> How do you do your water change?
>> Where do you collect the dirty water?
>> I collect dirty water to a Instant Ocean salt bucket
>> and always inspect the water to put back to the tank
>> some snails or micro-hermit crabs back to the tank...
>>
>
> Interesting. I use a pump with a cover over the intake to change water. I
> guess that keeps me ftrom sucking up my pets too. But it doesn't help when I
> vacuum.
>
> Anyone else do this?

[StringerBell]

Yeah---

I think it`s gone. I havent seen it for 48 hours. I didnt vacuum the sand, I
pulled a few "Stalks" of Macro out of the tank. They had attached themselves
to rubble, or just packed the substrate more with their roots. So I probably
disrupted things a bit when taking them out.

It just wasnt in my paradigm of expectations that a fish could get siphoned
out.I will screen the tube in the future. I still dont think that was the
cause.


"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
...
> Don't vacume your substrate.
>
> Wayne Sallee
>
>
>
> jthread wrote on 11/18/2007 6:56 PM:
>> "Pszemol" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> "StringerBell" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> I`m really bummed.
>>>>
>>>> I think I might have unknowingly siphoned a Scooter Blenny out of my
>>>> tank during a water change, is this possible?
>>>>
>>>> The other possibility is that I might have disrupted the DSB a bit when
>>>> cleaning out some Macro Algae. Could this release ammonia into the tank
>>>> bottom where the Blenny inhabits?
>>>>
>>>> I havent seen a body yet............
>>> How do you do your water change?
>>> Where do you collect the dirty water?
>>> I collect dirty water to a Instant Ocean salt bucket
>>> and always inspect the water to put back to the tank
>>> some snails or micro-hermit crabs back to the tank...
>>>
>>
>> Interesting. I use a pump with a cover over the intake to change water. I
>> guess that keeps me ftrom sucking up my pets too. But it doesn't help
>> when I vacuum.
>>
>> Anyone else do this?

[Wayne Sallee]

Also the prefilter for a mag 5 pump works very well
in the siphon tube.

Wayne Sallee



StringerBell wrote on 11/19/2007 7:28 AM:
> Yeah---
>
> I think it`s gone. I havent seen it for 48 hours. I didnt vacuum the sand, I
> pulled a few "Stalks" of Macro out of the tank. They had attached themselves
> to rubble, or just packed the substrate more with their roots. So I probably
> disrupted things a bit when taking them out.
>
> It just wasnt in my paradigm of expectations that a fish could get siphoned
> out.I will screen the tube in the future. I still dont think that was the
> cause.
>
>
> "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Don't vacume your substrate.
>>
>> Wayne Sallee
>>
>>
>>
>> jthread wrote on 11/18/2007 6:56 PM:
>>> "Pszemol" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> "StringerBell" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>> I`m really bummed.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think I might have unknowingly siphoned a Scooter Blenny out of my
>>>>> tank during a water change, is this possible?
>>>>>
>>>>> The other possibility is that I might have disrupted the DSB a bit when
>>>>> cleaning out some Macro Algae. Could this release ammonia into the tank
>>>>> bottom where the Blenny inhabits?
>>>>>
>>>>> I havent seen a body yet............
>>>> How do you do your water change?
>>>> Where do you collect the dirty water?
>>>> I collect dirty water to a Instant Ocean salt bucket
>>>> and always inspect the water to put back to the tank
>>>> some snails or micro-hermit crabs back to the tank...
>>>>
>>> Interesting. I use a pump with a cover over the intake to change water. I
>>> guess that keeps me ftrom sucking up my pets too. But it doesn't help
>>> when I vacuum.
>>>
>>> Anyone else do this?
>
>

[wolfdogg]

On Nov 19, 6:00 am, Wayne Sallee > wrote:
> Also the prefilter for a mag 5 pump works very well
> in the siphon tube.
>
> Wayne Sallee
>
>
> StringerBell wrote on 11/19/2007 7:28 AM:
>
> > Yeah---
>
> > I think it`s gone. I havent seen it for 48 hours. I didnt vacuum the sand, I
> > pulled a few "Stalks" of Macro out of the tank. They had attached themselves
> > to rubble, or just packed the substrate more with their roots. So I probably
> > disrupted things a bit when taking them out.
>
> > It just wasnt in my paradigm of expectations that a fish could get siphoned
> > out.I will screen the tube in the future. I still dont think that was the
> > cause.
>
> > "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> Don't vacume your substrate.
>
> >> Wayne Sallee
> >>
>
> >> jthread wrote on 11/18/2007 6:56 PM:
> >>> "Pszemol" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>>> "StringerBell" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>>>> I`m really bummed.
>
> >>>>> I think I might have unknowingly siphoned a Scooter Blenny out of my
> >>>>> tank during a water change, is this possible?
>
> >>>>> The other possibility is that I might have disrupted the DSB a bit when
> >>>>> cleaning out some Macro Algae. Could this release ammonia into the tank
> >>>>> bottom where the Blenny inhabits?
>
> >>>>> I havent seen a body yet............
> >>>> How do you do your water change?
> >>>> Where do you collect the dirty water?
> >>>> I collect dirty water to a Instant Ocean salt bucket
> >>>> and always inspect the water to put back to the tank
> >>>> some snails or micro-hermit crabs back to the tank...
>
> >>> Interesting. I use a pump with a cover over the intake to change water. I
> >>> guess that keeps me ftrom sucking up my pets too. But it doesn't help
> >>> when I vacuum.
>
> >>> Anyone else do this?

i dont think i have ever siphoned a fish out, i currently use a 1 inch
tube, but its a bit big, i like 5/8th's inch tubes, and siphon into a
5 gal salt bucket as well.
a good way to change is place a bucket halfway between your tank and
sump,and run one siphon into the bucket, and another siphon into the
sump, that gives an easy change that doesnt interrupt any water flow
of tank level. it allows for easy acclimation but takes a bit more
salt since 5 gallons changed this way only gets apprx 4.75 gallons of
fresh sal****er in the tank, the other apprx .25(estimation, and
depends on your tank size) gal ends up back in the bucket. i usually
let this flow for 15-20 mins or once the salinity and temp is equaled
in both the tank and bucket ensuring its mixed. Consequentially you
will see your fish in the bucket happily swimming around in good water
if you happened to sucked it up. no tube screen needed when using this
method. this may be kind of far fetched but screens kill fish too if
the flow is fast enough to suck them into it.

[[email protected]]

Hello Stringerbell,

Sadly, the probability is that the fish died, and that if you have
hermitcrabs or other inverts. they would have eaten it within hours.

Regards, Fisshnut.

On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 17:24:36 -0600, "Pszemol" >
wrote:

>"StringerBell" > wrote in message ...
>> I`m really bummed.
>>
>> I think I might have unknowingly siphoned a Scooter Blenny out of my tank
>> during a water change, is this possible?
>>
>> The other possibility is that I might have disrupted the DSB a bit when
>> cleaning out some Macro Algae. Could this release ammonia into the tank
>> bottom where the Blenny inhabits?
>>
>> I havent seen a body yet............
>
>How do you do your water change?
>Where do you collect the dirty water?
>I collect dirty water to a Instant Ocean salt bucket
>and always inspect the water to put back to the tank
>some snails or micro-hermit crabs back to the tank...
>
>How long is the fish unseen? Maybe just hidding somewhere?

[Wayne Sallee]

What ?????

Wayne Sallee



wolfdogg wrote on 11/19/2007 1:01 PM:
> On Nov 19, 6:00 am, Wayne Sallee > wrote:
>> Also the prefilter for a mag 5 pump works very well
>> in the siphon tube.
>>
>> Wayne Sallee
>>
>>
>> StringerBell wrote on 11/19/2007 7:28 AM:
>>
>>> Yeah---
>>> I think it`s gone. I havent seen it for 48 hours. I didnt vacuum the sand, I
>>> pulled a few "Stalks" of Macro out of the tank. They had attached themselves
>>> to rubble, or just packed the substrate more with their roots. So I probably
>>> disrupted things a bit when taking them out.
>>> It just wasnt in my paradigm of expectations that a fish could get siphoned
>>> out.I will screen the tube in the future. I still dont think that was the
>>> cause.
>>> "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> Don't vacume your substrate.
>>>> Wayne Sallee
>>>>
>>>> jthread wrote on 11/18/2007 6:56 PM:
>>>>> "Pszemol" > wrote in message
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> "StringerBell" > wrote in message
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>> I`m really bummed.
>>>>>>> I think I might have unknowingly siphoned a Scooter Blenny out of my
>>>>>>> tank during a water change, is this possible?
>>>>>>> The other possibility is that I might have disrupted the DSB a bit when
>>>>>>> cleaning out some Macro Algae. Could this release ammonia into the tank
>>>>>>> bottom where the Blenny inhabits?
>>>>>>> I havent seen a body yet............
>>>>>> How do you do your water change?
>>>>>> Where do you collect the dirty water?
>>>>>> I collect dirty water to a Instant Ocean salt bucket
>>>>>> and always inspect the water to put back to the tank
>>>>>> some snails or micro-hermit crabs back to the tank...
>>>>> Interesting. I use a pump with a cover over the intake to change water. I
>>>>> guess that keeps me ftrom sucking up my pets too. But it doesn't help
>>>>> when I vacuum.
>>>>> Anyone else do this?
>
> i dont think i have ever siphoned a fish out, i currently use a 1 inch
> tube, but its a bit big, i like 5/8th's inch tubes, and siphon into a
> 5 gal salt bucket as well.
> a good way to change is place a bucket halfway between your tank and
> sump,and run one siphon into the bucket, and another siphon into the
> sump, that gives an easy change that doesnt interrupt any water flow
> of tank level. it allows for easy acclimation but takes a bit more
> salt since 5 gallons changed this way only gets apprx 4.75 gallons of
> fresh sal****er in the tank, the other apprx .25(estimation, and
> depends on your tank size) gal ends up back in the bucket. i usually
> let this flow for 15-20 mins or once the salinity and temp is equaled
> in both the tank and bucket ensuring its mixed. Consequentially you
> will see your fish in the bucket happily swimming around in good water
> if you happened to sucked it up. no tube screen needed when using this
> method. this may be kind of far fetched but screens kill fish too if
> the flow is fast enough to suck them into it.

[wolfdogg]

On Nov 19, 3:49 pm, Wayne Sallee > wrote:
> What ?????

what what? lol. you didnt understand my method? you quoted 3 users
comments, not sure what you mean by "What"

im thinking fishnut is obviously right, the blenny prob died and got
eaten.

[Wayne Sallee]

I could not comprehend what you were trying to say.

Wayne Sallee



wolfdogg wrote on 11/20/2007 1:29 PM:
> On Nov 19, 3:49 pm, Wayne Sallee > wrote:
>> What ?????
>
> what what? lol. you didnt understand my method? you quoted 3 users
> comments, not sure what you mean by "What"
>
> im thinking fishnut is obviously right, the blenny prob died and got
> eaten.

[wolfdogg]

i call it the stress free method,

you siphon your tank into your water change container that has fresh
mixed salt water, and simultaneously you take second siphon hose and
siphon the water change container into the sump(assuming the sumps on
the bottom), you need to adjust the hoses with a Kink, or Knot in
them, or simply raise or lower the water change container until the
flow reaches an equilibrium. Then the sump receives water at the same
rate as the tank loses it. its the way i learned from Marc. this way
your tank water level doesn't drop at all, and anything sucked up
will end up in the bucket consequentially.
this way is better than siphoning out water, having your Weir stop or
your water level drop, then pouring water back in which slightly
stresses the creatures, then having to restart the flow again.
some setups wont have the weir (u tube) problem, others will, but
overall its a stress free way to do a water change.

[KurtG]

wolfdogg wrote:
> i call it the stress free method,

I take advantage of the water changes to siphon/pump crud out of the
system. I've been dumping out 5 gal buckets of sludge lately.

I admit, it would be more stressful on the critters. You're method
would allow a gentle mixing of the water. I'd use a float valve in the
sump to give you the right flow rates.

I also use the waste water to scrub the pumps, etc so I don't kill the
coraline on the outside. I kind of like the coated look.

--Kurt

[George Patterson]

KurtG wrote:
> wolfdogg wrote:
>
>>i call it the stress free method,
>
> I take advantage of the water changes to siphon/pump crud out of the
> system. I've been dumping out 5 gal buckets of sludge lately.

Maybe you could set up the syphon from the collecting container into the sump in
such a way that most of the crud stays in the collecting container? Perhaps a
strainer on that syphon hose and set it up to pull water from the top of the
container.

I also use the syphon process to remove crud, and I don't have a sump, but
Wolfdogg's procedure sounds very practical. I would try to work out a way to
make it work for you.

George Patterson
Worry doesn't improve the future; it just ruins the present.

[Wayne Sallee]

It also takes longer, and waist salt.

The way I do water changes, is I make the new salt
water slightly saltier than the aquarium water, then
pump the new water into the aquarium into a sock at
the bottom of the tank. The new water stays at the
bottom, and the old water goes over the overflow. I
also hook a hose to the side output valve of the
return pump plumbing, so I can at the same time,
pump old water from the sump down the drain in the
bath tub. Salt water works great for the septic
tank. So the water in the aquarium does not drop,
except for a tiny bit because there is less water
flowing in the tank to keep the water higher than
the overflow. I can do a 50% water change very
easily this way.

Wayne Sallee



wolfdogg wrote on 11/27/2007 2:47 PM:
> i call it the stress free method,
>
> you siphon your tank into your water change container that has fresh
> mixed salt water, and simultaneously you take second siphon hose and
> siphon the water change container into the sump(assuming the sumps on
> the bottom), you need to adjust the hoses with a Kink, or Knot in
> them, or simply raise or lower the water change container until the
> flow reaches an equilibrium. Then the sump receives water at the same
> rate as the tank loses it. its the way i learned from Marc. this way
> your tank water level doesn't drop at all, and anything sucked up
> will end up in the bucket consequentially.
> this way is better than siphoning out water, having your Weir stop or
> your water level drop, then pouring water back in which slightly
> stresses the creatures, then having to restart the flow again.
> some setups wont have the weir (u tube) problem, others will, but
> overall its a stress free way to do a water change.

[Wayne Sallee]

George Patterson wrote on 11/27/2007 10:58 PM:
> Perhaps a strainer on that syphon hose and set it up to pull
> water from the top of the container.

A blue jean leg sewed together at one end works
great for this.

Wayne Sallee

[Pszemol]

"wolfdogg" > wrote in message ...
>i call it the stress free method,
>
> you siphon your tank into your water change container that has fresh
> mixed salt water, and simultaneously you take second siphon hose and
> siphon the water change container into the sump(assuming the sumps on
> the bottom), you need to adjust the hoses with a Kink, or Knot in
> them, or simply raise or lower the water change container until the
> flow reaches an equilibrium. Then the sump receives water at the same
> rate as the tank loses it. its the way i learned from Marc. this way
> your tank water level doesn't drop at all, and anything sucked up
> will end up in the bucket consequentially.
> this way is better than siphoning out water, having your Weir stop or
> your water level drop, then pouring water back in which slightly
> stresses the creatures, then having to restart the flow again.
> some setups wont have the weir (u tube) problem, others will, but
> overall its a stress free way to do a water change.

I call it wasteful method :-)
Anybody having anything to do with chemistry will tell you,
that you are wasting a lot of your fresh sal****er - you mix it with
dirty water so effectively you are replacing less water than
the full bucket in the traditional method using two buckets:
one for collecting dirty water and one full with fresh saltmix....

I cannot see how this method lower any stress...
Here is why:

If you have a problems with overflow/weir than you HAVE TO FIX
them immediatelly or the next temporary power outage will cause
your weir to stop and after restarting power your circulation pump
will dump all the content of the sump on your living room floor...
My overflow/weir/sump system is designed that it can take ANY
power outage in any moment and the smp will never run dry
and never overflow... It can be done and should be done :-)
If I knew that my overflow will pour water over my floor with the next
power outage I am not home I would be very stressed man :-)

Second - corals will not suffer temporary exposure to air...
It happens on the reef crest every day with the tidal action...
If you are worried that some coraline exposed to air will
white out you can get it wet during the water change with
a small plastic cup... But for the most cases it is unnecesairy.

[charlie]

"Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
...
> It also takes longer, and waist salt.
>
> The way I do water changes, is I make the new salt water slightly saltier
> than the aquarium water, then pump the new water into the aquarium into a
> sock at the bottom of the tank. The new water stays at the bottom, and the
> old water goes over the overflow. I also hook a hose to the side output
> valve of the return pump plumbing, so I can at the same time, pump old
> water from the sump down the drain in the bath tub. Salt water works great
> for the septic tank.

salt isn't particularly good for a septic tank. figure if you're using a
bucket of salt in a year, and it all goes into the tank, where does it go
from there? a lot of time it's still in there, or in your field, and it
doesn't do any good for the bacteria that should be in the tank.

i use mine for killing weeds in the driveway. however, you have to watch
where the salt will migrate to during rains. in az, that doesn't happen
frequently.

> So the water in the aquarium does not drop, except for a tiny bit because
> there is less water flowing in the tank to keep the water higher than the
> overflow. I can do a 50% water change very easily this way.
>
> Wayne Sallee
>

regards,
charlie
cave creek, az

[wolfdogg]

On Nov 27, 10:07 pm, "Pszemol" > wrote:
> I call it wasteful method :-)
> Anybody having anything to do with chemistry will tell you,
> that you are wasting a lot of your fresh sal****er

> I cannot see how this method lower any stress...
> Here is why:

> If you have a problems with overflow/weir than you HAVE TO FIX
> them immediately
> Second - corals will not suffer temporary exposure to air...

the waste is pretty much minimal, its not much, as you leave the
apparatus running about 15-20 mins, until the salt levels are the
same, and the waste depends on the size of the container vs the size
of the tank. you will notice i did mention it has a bit of waste of
fresh sal****er, i know this, but if your using a 5 gal bucket, and a
60 gallon tank, the waste is only about 2.5% i suspect.

If you were to use one bucket in, and one bucket out, it no longer
becomes a 15-20 stress free change, instead it becomes a bulk of fresh
sea water pouring in with no immediate mixing in the bucket. the
method with 2 buckets as you mention just simply keeps the tank full,
but doesn't allow for the brilliant mixing in the container. it only
wastes minimal. the creatures are the concern.

i do have a problem with the overflow, which you recognized, this
problem is the front 3 sides of my inside overflow box is separating
from the back side, and has been stable like tis for about 12 years
now with a slight separation, i siliconed it once, but its not really
a problem. the power outage feature always works fine, and the weir
always stays full, just when more than 5 gallons are removed the gap
int eh back causes it to drop below the 2inch pvc weir unfortunately.
However, this isnt the reason i use this method, i use it so that the
water can mix first in the change container instead of on top of my
species.

corals wont suffer from temp exposure to air yes, i guess, but i
wouldn't want to do it as my house is pretty cold and it just seems
counter productive. Also, i don't imagine anybody likes to see their
tank drop this unnecessarily if theres another way :-) , and also
sometimes when we do this, we stir up the water when the flow bashes
back into the lower-watered tank once we start the flow again as some
of us use our sump to pump it back in which stirs up the water from
new heavy currents and further stresses corals with cloudy water and
causes them to retract. I guess if you water doesn't stir up at all,
and none of your corals retract when one does their changes then thats
ok, in the best of setups, but the tank lowering isn't always
necessary when doing water changes. i think marc levenson swears by
this method (melevsreef.com) and the waste if minimal if your only
doing a 15% change or less OR using a container thats small compared
to your tank size. If your doing a 50% change then yes, this would be
wasteful, but usually we should be doing a small 10-20% change and to
some the trade-off of 5% salt loss is worth the trade-off of keeping
the stress down. since changes can be hard on the creatures.

This is just the way i do it when doing regular maintenance, but not
when doing mass emergency changes. HTH

[KurtG]

wolfdogg wrote:
> if your using a 5 gal bucket, and a
> 60 gallon tank, the waste is only about 2.5% i suspect.

5/60 * 100 = 8.3%

If it fully mixes, 8.3% of your 5 gallon bucket would be new salt water.

[Wayne Sallee]

Bacteria still grows just fine in the septic tank,
just like it does in our aquariums, and the salt
kills the tree roots that try to grow in, and clog
the drain lines, assuming you do enough volume in
salt water for this. It's kept my septic system
going well for many years.

Wayne Sallee



charlie wrote on 11/28/2007 12:57 PM:
> "Wayne Sallee" > wrote in message
> ...
>> It also takes longer, and waist salt.
>>
>> The way I do water changes, is I make the new salt water slightly saltier
>> than the aquarium water, then pump the new water into the aquarium into a
>> sock at the bottom of the tank. The new water stays at the bottom, and the
>> old water goes over the overflow. I also hook a hose to the side output
>> valve of the return pump plumbing, so I can at the same time, pump old
>> water from the sump down the drain in the bath tub. Salt water works great
>> for the septic tank.
>
> salt isn't particularly good for a septic tank. figure if you're using a
> bucket of salt in a year, and it all goes into the tank, where does it go
> from there? a lot of time it's still in there, or in your field, and it
> doesn't do any good for the bacteria that should be in the tank.
>
> i use mine for killing weeds in the driveway. however, you have to watch
> where the salt will migrate to during rains. in az, that doesn't happen
> frequently.
>
>> So the water in the aquarium does not drop, except for a tiny bit because
>> there is less water flowing in the tank to keep the water higher than the
>> overflow. I can do a 50% water change very easily this way.
>>
>> Wayne Sallee
>>
>
> regards,
> charlie
> cave creek, az
>
>

[Pszemol]

"KurtG" > wrote in message ...
> wolfdogg wrote:
>> if your using a 5 gal bucket, and a
>> 60 gallon tank, the waste is only about 2.5% i suspect.
>
> 5/60 * 100 = 8.3%
>
> If it fully mixes, 8.3% of your 5 gallon bucket would be new salt water.

You guys... :-)
Even assuming a 60 gallon tank having 60 gallons of water
(real net volume will be smaller) you both have made a mistake :-)

In the bucket mixing method you will have 5 gallons of new
sal****er mixed in a total volume of 60+5 water. 5/65 is 7.7%.
After the water mixing you will take out 5 gallons of this mixture
out but water change ration in the tank will be 7.7%.

In the draining and refiling method you drained 5 gallons out
of 60, and then you added 5 new sal****er to 55 remaining.
Than you will replace 8.3%

The difference between two methods (wated water) will be
8.3 - 7.7 - only 0.6 % of volume. Small amount but wasted
for no good reason :-)

In my case, I usually make bigger water replacements so
from a 58 gallons oceanic running with 10 gallons sump
I am draining two IO salt buckets 6.5 gallons each and
replace them with two buckets of fresh sal****er...
13 gallons of new water diluting total volume of less than 58.
There is no stress on animals related to the water change
as long as you keep most stresful parameters of the new
water (like salinity, temperature) close to the tank water.

[Wayne Sallee]

Pszemol wrote on 11/28/2007 4:30 PM:
> In the bucket mixing method you will have 5 gallons of new
> sal****er mixed in a total volume of 60+5 water. 5/65 is 7.7%.
> After the water mixing you will take out 5 gallons of this mixture
> out but water change ration in the tank will be 7.7%.

Yea, I saw that too, but he probably has at least 5
gallons of rock and sand, bringing the water volume
back to 60 gallons. :-)

Wayne Sallee

[KurtG]

Wayne Sallee wrote:
> Yea, I saw that too, but he probably has at least 5 gallons of rock and
> sand, bringing the water volume back to 60 gallons. :-)

Yes, I should have made a more detailed analysis. I didn't mean to
neglect the 5 gallon bucket (+5 gallons) and subject aquarium not being
fully filled, rocks, sand (-5 gallons). :-)

I don't think that I can buy into the 0.6% wastage. When you dump out
the 5 gallon bucket of water, roughly 8% of it was the original mixed
salt water used for the water change. It would be worse for larger
water changes.

Don't even get me started on the people that add RO/DI water to fill the
tank back up before a water change. :-) Much better to drain
concentrated liquid crud and then refill with salt & water to get the
correct SG.

--Kurt

[Pszemol]

"KurtG" > wrote in message ...
> Don't even get me started on the people that add RO/DI water to fill the
> tank back up before a water change. :-) Much better to drain
> concentrated liquid crud and then refill with salt & water to get the
> correct SG.

Yes, toping up before water change works against you.

[George Patterson]

Wayne Sallee wrote:
> It also takes longer, and waist salt.
>
> The way I do water changes, is I make the new salt water slightly
> saltier than the aquarium water, then pump the new water into the
> aquarium into a sock at the bottom of the tank. The new water stays at
> the bottom, and the old water goes over the overflow. I also hook a hose
> to the side output valve of the return pump plumbing, so I can at the
> same time, pump old water from the sump down the drain in the bath tub.

Then you would add fresh water to the tank to get the salinity right again?

George Patterson
Worry doesn't improve the future; it just ruins the present.

[Wayne Sallee]

Well, let's say, that the salinity in the tank was
1.024. Then I would make the new water 1.025 to
1.026. Doing a 50% water change would change the
tank water to 1.0245 to 1.025.

So when doing the water change, I would end with the
sump water level slightly lower, where the sump
water level would be at that salinity. I drip lime
water to maintain water levels, so that will slowly
bring the water level back to normal position.

If I am going to do a water change, and I feel that
the tank needs more fresh water, then I add some
fresh water, and then do the water change. I use
well water, so it's cheap.

Now that I have both well water, and city water, I
will eventually hook up a RO unit to the city water,
one of these days. :-) The well water is so high in
iron, that I don't want to hook up a RO unit to
that. But my well water works great for the
aquariums. It's also very high in hydrogen sulfide,
which is deadly for the fish. But that degases very
quickly in the storage bins, and the iron
precipitates out.

Wayne Sallee



George Patterson wrote on 11/28/2007 10:41 PM:
> Wayne Sallee wrote:
>> It also takes longer, and waist salt.
>>
>> The way I do water changes, is I make the new salt water slightly
>> saltier than the aquarium water, then pump the new water into the
>> aquarium into a sock at the bottom of the tank. The new water stays at
>> the bottom, and the old water goes over the overflow. I also hook a
>> hose to the side output valve of the return pump plumbing, so I can at
>> the same time, pump old water from the sump down the drain in the bath
>> tub.
>
> Then you would add fresh water to the tank to get the salinity right again?
>
> George Patterson
> Worry doesn't improve the future; it just ruins the present.