Punishment, solitary style.

[D&M]

I was at my local "experienced" lfs, inquiring about turning in one of my
trouble makers, a Red Parrot cichlid.

I was given a different alternative that I'd never heard of done to a fish
before today, just wondering if anyone else has done it.

When he is bad, catch him and lock him up is a breeder net for a while,
cause he really won't like it. After he's released again, if he continues,
lock him up again. She said she's locked them up for up to 4 days, only to
let it back out and a 1/2 hour later lock up again. She said it works, fish
are very smart, and will catch on what's bad and what the consiquences of
their actions are.

Well, as this is the first time I ever heard this, I had to try it, so
tonight it the first night, got the trap set up, waiting for him to act up
(which shouldn't take long).

Cheers

[Mephistopheles]

"D&M" > wrote in
:

> I was at my local "experienced" lfs, inquiring about turning in
> one of my trouble makers, a Red Parrot cichlid.
>
> I was given a different alternative that I'd never heard of done
> to a fish before today, just wondering if anyone else has done
> it.
>
> When he is bad, catch him and lock him up is a breeder net for a
> while, cause he really won't like it. After he's released again,
> if he continues, lock him up again. She said she's locked them
> up for up to 4 days, only to let it back out and a 1/2 hour
> later lock up again. She said it works, fish are very smart, and
> will catch on what's bad and what the consiquences of their
> actions are.
>
> Well, as this is the first time I ever heard this, I had to try
> it, so tonight it the first night, got the trap set up, waiting
> for him to act up (which shouldn't take long).
>
> Cheers
>
>
>

Sorry, but I think all that will teach him to do is not to chase
fish while you are around. As soon as you leave or are not
watching, it will be back to business as usual.

Meph

[Victor Martinez]

That's got to be the dumbest idea ever to come out of an ignorant lfs
employee...

--
Victor Martinez
Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)
Send your spam here:
Email me here:

[D&M]

This lfs "employee" is 68 years old, been a fish keeper since she was 14.
Owns her own aquarium store from her home employing 7, with 60 freshwater
tanks. Plus the additional tanks she keeps in her home with her husband. I
tend to listen to what she has to say.


"Victor Martinez" > wrote in message
.. .
> That's got to be the dumbest idea ever to come out of an ignorant lfs
> employee...
>
> --
> Victor Martinez
> Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)
> Send your spam here:
> Email me here:
>

[Cary]

HMMMMM you think a fish has the mental capability to know "Hey I am being
punished?" I feel fish do not have that mental capability. They are
instinctual, sure some have cute personalitys but its not cuase they think "Hey
I am gonna act cute for my owner" Sounds like to me the LFS owner didnt want to
take the fish. Just my 2cents.............Cary

[Zydeco29]

"D&M" > wrote in message
...
> This lfs "employee" is 68 years old, been a fish keeper since she was 14.
> Owns her own aquarium store from her home employing 7, with 60 freshwater
> tanks. Plus the additional tanks she keeps in her home with her husband. I
> tend to listen to what she has to say.
>

no offense, but how about listening to common sense? do u really think that
would be stress free for the fish? and if we all agree to agree that it
would indeed be stressful, how do u think the fish would handle that?

do u really think that the fish would be kept healthy in such conditions?

come on...........

[Surgicalrn]

I agree with all of these guys... it's not a good idea to treat a fish this
way. If you can't handle his behavior with the other fish in the tank then
guess what- he's not the type of fish you need to have in your tank. Get a
fish that will do well with the fish you already have instead of stressing
out one particular fish who probably shouldn't be in the tank anyway. Your
just asking for him to develope some sort of infection from being constantly
caught and thrown in solitary. Even the best nets cause slight damage when
they are used to catch a fish who doesn't want to be caught (believe me he
will come to hate you and that net). When he eventually figures out that
every time that net hits the water it's coming after him he will start doing
everything in his power to escape that net and he might injure himself even
more. Is it really worth all of that???

[D&M]

We given it some deep thought, analized the specific fish he disagreed with,
what triggered the agression. Come to the conclusion that he's just not a
community fish. This tank has over 20 different species of fish, he's the
only one not fitting in.

I agree with the other that it will not only stress out him, but the umpteen
other species in the tank as well. Would also take a 1/2 hour each time just
to catch him.

If it was any other lfs, some petco, 16 year old kid, I wouldn't have even
given it a second thought and would have left laughing. But when someone of
that age give an idea that I never ever heard about in my fish keeping days,
nor anywhere on the net, had to give it the benefit of a doubt.

That's the reason I posted it here, to see what others thought of the idea,
if it would work or not. And your opinions are pretty much what were
thinking. WE're just lucky that because of his mutation, he can't bite...
otherwise wouldn't be a question in our minds and he would have been gone
ages ago.

So, in the "Big Fishy House 3", the others tenants of the tank have voted
him evicted.

Thanks for all your feedback guys, we really appreciated it.

[Geezer From The Freezer]

D&M, everyone will have an opinion and you will get both
for and against.

For example. I wanted to put sand in my tank, people told me
"no this will irritate your fish's gills and clog up your filter
and be difficult to keep clean, and will churn your fishs stomach"

Then comes gravel, some say "your fish will get gravel caught
inside him and will die". Yet plenty of people have sand or gravel
or both....who do you listen to.

[Victor Martinez]

D&M wrote:
> This lfs "employee" is 68 years old, been a fish keeper since she was 14.
> Owns her own aquarium store from her home employing 7, with 60 freshwater
> tanks. Plus the additional tanks she keeps in her home with her husband. I
> tend to listen to what she has to say.

So? You don't think that just because she's experienced doesn't mean she
can't be a fool? Or lack common sense?

--
Victor Martinez
Send your spam here:
Email me here:

[Mark]

What evidence do you have to prove the theory invalid?

--


Mark
http://www.cichliddomain.com


"Victor Martinez" > wrote in message
...
> D&M wrote:
> > This lfs "employee" is 68 years old, been a fish keeper since she
was 14.
> > Owns her own aquarium store from her home employing 7, with 60
freshwater
> > tanks. Plus the additional tanks she keeps in her home with her
husband. I
> > tend to listen to what she has to say.
>
> So? You don't think that just because she's experienced doesn't mean
she
> can't be a fool? Or lack common sense?
>
> --
> Victor Martinez
> Send your spam here:
> Email me here:
>

[NetMax]

"D&M" > wrote in message
...
> I was at my local "experienced" lfs, inquiring about turning in one of
my
> trouble makers, a Red Parrot cichlid.
>
> I was given a different alternative that I'd never heard of done to a
fish
> before today, just wondering if anyone else has done it.
>
> When he is bad, catch him and lock him up is a breeder net for a while,
> cause he really won't like it. After he's released again, if he
continues,
> lock him up again. She said she's locked them up for up to 4 days, only
to
> let it back out and a 1/2 hour later lock up again. She said it works,
fish
> are very smart, and will catch on what's bad and what the consiquences
of
> their actions are.
>
> Well, as this is the first time I ever heard this, I had to try it, so
> tonight it the first night, got the trap set up, waiting for him to act
up
> (which shouldn't take long).
>
> Cheers

IMHO, there is some validity to behaviour modification through
punishment/separation. It isn't as easy or as successful as you might
expect, and the constant catching/moving is stressful to all the fish.
In some applications, where you have many tanks, easy catch, and common
water parameters, then this is an absolutely valid method of 'trying' to
change their ways. Just moving them into an empty tank with no
decorations is usually punishment enough (not a breeding trap). It
allows the other fish a break, and when the troublemaker is
re-introduced, he wears intruder status for a little while, so his
behaviour is slightly improved for a short while.

Depending on the fish and it's reason for aggression ymmv, and it will
usually take more than one or two 'time outs', IF it is to work at all
(when it does work). Your chances of success are minimal, but if you
have the application, you can experiment with it. The larger the tanks,
and the more mixed your community, and the smaller the difference between
your aggressor and the next in command, the better your chances of
success will be. Don't be surprised when you find it worked too well,
and your former aggressor becomes the victim which you now need to rescue
;~) Also consider the cause of his aggression, as this will constantly
act to restore his 'evil' ways.

The fact is, juveniles grow up in a state of equilibrium with each other.
This equilibrium is sometimes very fragile and it only takes one fish to
upset the balance (ask anyone who keeps mbuna). Trying to restore the
balance by modifying the behaviour of one fish will sometimes not work
because everyone else's behaviour has now changed as well. I see this
quite often when people introduce or lose a fish into/from a mature
combination of semi or aggressive fishes. Sometimes you just have to
move the aggressor out (permanently) or reset the entire tank. hth

NetMax

[Geezer From The Freezer]

Victor Martinez wrote:
to say.
>
> So? You don't think that just because she's experienced doesn't mean she
> can't be a fool? Or lack common sense?

Hey, if I'm to fly in a plane as a passenger and have an experienced pilot
fly or a newbie, I know which one I would choose.

[RedForeman ©®]

I kinda laughed when I read the responses... the opinions offered here, are
just that.. opinions.... and nobody is right, as well, nobody is entirely
wrong.... that includes you... I've done what you say, and what a surprise,
it even worked... I had a socoffoli that was terrorizing another RedZebra
and it was because they were territorial.. wow... what a concept... I put
'scuff' in a breeder net for a few days, and by then the RedZebra became
boss... for a month, scuff would ignore the boss, and eventually the boss
became bigger, and scuff never bothered anyone ever again....

I think those who try and condemn someone before seeing both sides of a
story are somewhat close minded.... Though some may not agree, that doesn't
make it wrong or bad...


"D&M" > wrote in message
...
> I was at my local "experienced" lfs, inquiring about turning in one of my
> trouble makers, a Red Parrot cichlid.
>
> I was given a different alternative that I'd never heard of done to a fish
> before today, just wondering if anyone else has done it.
>
> When he is bad, catch him and lock him up is a breeder net for a while,
> cause he really won't like it. After he's released again, if he continues,
> lock him up again. She said she's locked them up for up to 4 days, only to
> let it back out and a 1/2 hour later lock up again. She said it works,
fish
> are very smart, and will catch on what's bad and what the consiquences of
> their actions are.
>
> Well, as this is the first time I ever heard this, I had to try it, so
> tonight it the first night, got the trap set up, waiting for him to act up
> (which shouldn't take long).
>
> Cheers
>
>

[[email protected]]

Cary wrote:
> HMMMMM you think a fish has the mental capability to know "Hey I am being
> punished?" I feel fish do not have that mental capability. They are
> instinctual, sure some have cute personalitys but its not cuase they think "Hey
> I am gonna act cute for my owner" Sounds like to me the LFS owner didnt want to
> take the fish. Just my 2cents.............Cary

It requires very little mental capability on the part of the subject to
do this type of training, which I believe is generally referred to as
classical conditioning. Naturally fish do not have the ability to
realize they are being punished and the length of punishment is really
irrelevant (probably being chased by the net would be enough) since it
can't "think about what it has done." If it were applied consistently
and immediately after the offending behavior though, the fish MIGHT
associate the bad behavior with the punishment. Just like my fish
associate the sound of the stand door openly with the appearance of food
shortly thereafter and start going into feeding-frenzy mode. I don't
think that punishment is a very good solution in this case though
because it will probably just lead to the fish being stressed out every
time it sees the owner.

Brian

[Jay]

> wrote in message
...
> Cary wrote:
> > HMMMMM you think a fish has the mental capability to know "Hey I am
being
> > punished?" I feel fish do not have that mental capability. They are
> > instinctual, sure some have cute personalitys but its not cuase they
think "Hey
> > I am gonna act cute for my owner" Sounds like to me the LFS owner didnt
want to
> > take the fish. Just my 2cents.............Cary
>
> It requires very little mental capability on the part of the subject to
> do this type of training, which I believe is generally referred to as
> classical conditioning. Naturally fish do not have the ability to
> realize they are being punished and the length of punishment is really
> irrelevant (probably being chased by the net would be enough) since it
> can't "think about what it has done." If it were applied consistently
> and immediately after the offending behavior though, the fish MIGHT
> associate the bad behavior with the punishment. Just like my fish
> associate the sound of the stand door openly with the appearance of food
> shortly thereafter and start going into feeding-frenzy mode. I don't
> think that punishment is a very good solution in this case though
> because it will probably just lead to the fish being stressed out every
> time it sees the owner.

I'm sure that the owner probably can't sit at the tank for 24 hours in the
day just waiting for the fish to behave badly either. Like your example, my
fish see the yellow can of food and go nuts. They know that food is
arriving. If the owner tries to net the fish everytime it acts bad, the fish
is going to simply hide everytime it sees the owner in anticipation of
another netting. It doesn't know that it's because of it's behavior because
it just got done bullying another fish five minutes before the owner looked
and got away with it. This leads back to a statement made earlier of
bringing the fish to the lfs and getting other fish that can get along with
the current population.

- J

[[email protected]]

In rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc D&M > wrote:

> So, in the "Big Fishy House 3", the others tenants of the tank have voted
> him evicted.

I don't think that really happened. Fish can't vote. They don't have
suffryage rights.


--
.................................................. ............................

"Those who shall sober up from the collective intoxication will have to
admit that the Palestinians are the Jews of our era, a small, hunted
people, defenseless, standing alone against the best weapons, helpless
the whole world is against them"
-Ha'aretz, June 13, 1982

.................................................. ............................
http://www.memeticcandiru.com

[D&M]

>
> The fact is, juveniles grow up in a state of equilibrium with each other.
> This equilibrium is sometimes very fragile and it only takes one fish to
> upset the balance (ask anyone who keeps mbuna). Trying to restore the
> balance by modifying the behaviour of one fish will sometimes not work
> because everyone else's behaviour has now changed as well. I see this
> quite often when people introduce or lose a fish into/from a mature
> combination of semi or aggressive fishes. Sometimes you just have to
> move the aggressor out (permanently) or reset the entire tank. hth
>
> NetMax
>


Pretty much what happened. We removed an agressive adult red tail shark, the
day after is when the parrot took over the tank. More his safety I'm
concerned about, he's picking on fish he should not be, such as a full grown
pictus cat. The cat's turned on him a couple times already, was tired of
being chased.

[The Madd Hatter]

It is classical conditioning, and as you say, it will only teach the fish to
feel threatened when ever the owner appears. That will be the primary
constant that it will associate the negative response to. NOT the fact that
it chased a fish.. Why? Because for every 1 time you catch him chasing a
fish and "punish" him, he's probably chased the fish atleast 10 times when
you're not around, w/o reprisals.

You're trying to battle a millenia of bred instincts w/ a fairly rudementary
form of conditioning, which is also incomplete. If you really want to turn
this fish into a peaceful creature, enforce strict conditioning, breed it,
enforce the same conditioning on the offspring, breed them, etc, etc, for a
couple hundred generations. You might start to see a slight deviation from
their natural behavior eventually. Me, I'd personally just return the fish
to the "knowledgeable" LFS owner and get something more compatible. Actually
I'd probably use this as an excuse to start another tank, but then, that's
why I'll probably be single for a very long time :-) (Fiancee is threatening
to require a pre nup stating a strict limit on tanks for the durationof our
marraige!)

> wrote in message
...
> Cary wrote:
> > HMMMMM you think a fish has the mental capability to know "Hey I am
being
> > punished?" I feel fish do not have that mental capability. They are
> > instinctual, sure some have cute personalitys but its not cuase they
think "Hey
> > I am gonna act cute for my owner" Sounds like to me the LFS owner didnt
want to
> > take the fish. Just my 2cents.............Cary
>
> It requires very little mental capability on the part of the subject to
> do this type of training, which I believe is generally referred to as
> classical conditioning. Naturally fish do not have the ability to
> realize they are being punished and the length of punishment is really
> irrelevant (probably being chased by the net would be enough) since it
> can't "think about what it has done." If it were applied consistently
> and immediately after the offending behavior though, the fish MIGHT
> associate the bad behavior with the punishment. Just like my fish
> associate the sound of the stand door openly with the appearance of food
> shortly thereafter and start going into feeding-frenzy mode. I don't
> think that punishment is a very good solution in this case though
> because it will probably just lead to the fish being stressed out every
> time it sees the owner.
>
> Brian
>

[Paul]

>
>You're trying to battle a millenia of bred instincts w/ a fairly
rudementary
>form of conditioning, which is also incomplete. If you really want to turn
>this fish into a peaceful creature, enforce strict conditioning, breed it,
>enforce the same conditioning on the offspring, breed them, etc, etc, for a
>couple hundred generations. You might start to see a slight deviation from
>their natural behavior eventually.

I hate to be picky Mr Hatter, but Darwinian evolution doesn't work this way.
Species don't pass on learned abilities or habits to their offspring through
their genes. they might be able to teach their offspring to do things or not
to do things, but as soon as you have a fry that has never seen it's mum or
dad, it doesn't have any ability to replicate these learned traits of the
parents.

everyone else has had a comment on this, so I thought I'd chime in! this
is all in good humour mate, I might even be wrong..

[Cam]

> I hate to be picky Mr Hatter, but Darwinian evolution doesn't work this
way.
> Species don't pass on learned abilities or habits to their offspring
through
> their genes.
>
> everyone else has had a comment on this, so I thought I'd chime in! this
> is all in good humour mate, I might even be wrong..

Hi Paul

Yes....you are right....and wrong.
You're right in the sense that they don't "pass on" habits via the genes.
However they do transfer alot of information via "Memes". A meme is a
"cultural thought pattern" that every culture has. It's almost ethereal in a
way. Twilight Zone......:)

For instance, there was once a colony of apes that lived on an island very
far away :) The primary source of food on this island was potatoes.
Biologists observed the apes and saw that they had begun to dip the potato
in the salt water before they took a bite as this gave it more taste and
flavour. Keep in mind that these apes are confined to an island!!! Biologist
shortly afterwards observed the same behaviour in apes from other colonies.
What is amazing is that the other colonies were on the opposite side of the
planet. KNOWLEDGE TRAVELS. Hence "MEMES" or cultural thoughts, and are
species specific. Another case would be the magpie's that strip off milk
bottle tops to drink the milk. Nearly all magpies do this these days if the
opportunity presents itself.

"Memes" are everywhere. They shape who we are culturally, an ever evolving
process. Do a search on Google to discover even more interesting
memes....:):)

Regards
Cam

[Rich Conley]

how it does work though, is if you either only breed those who take best to the
conditioning, or only breed those who are least aggressive, you will end up wiht
a more suitable fish.

Paul wrote:

> >
> >You're trying to battle a millenia of bred instincts w/ a fairly
> rudementary
> >form of conditioning, which is also incomplete. If you really want to turn
> >this fish into a peaceful creature, enforce strict conditioning, breed it,
> >enforce the same conditioning on the offspring, breed them, etc, etc, for a
> >couple hundred generations. You might start to see a slight deviation from
> >their natural behavior eventually.
>
> I hate to be picky Mr Hatter, but Darwinian evolution doesn't work this way.
> Species don't pass on learned abilities or habits to their offspring through
> their genes. they might be able to teach their offspring to do things or not
> to do things, but as soon as you have a fry that has never seen it's mum or
> dad, it doesn't have any ability to replicate these learned traits of the
> parents.
>
> everyone else has had a comment on this, so I thought I'd chime in! this
> is all in good humour mate, I might even be wrong..

[D&M]

Possibly hybrid ways of doing it, doubting natural genetics could cause that
type of affect.

An example I've seen is the black bear hampster, a syrian hybrid I believe.
That breed has been developed to be peaceful right out of the box. Course,
like other hybrids, there's a hefty price tag on them.

Do date, I have not found an agressive black bear hamster, and I actually
check each and every one I find in pet stores for agression as it marvels
me.

[Paul]

Cam wrote in message ...
>> I hate to be picky Mr Hatter, but Darwinian evolution doesn't work this
>way.
>> Species don't pass on learned abilities or habits to their offspring
>through
>> their genes.
>>
>> everyone else has had a comment on this, so I thought I'd chime in!
this
>> is all in good humour mate, I might even be wrong..
>
>Hi Paul
>
>Yes....you are right....and wrong.
>You're right in the sense that they don't "pass on" habits via the genes.
>However they do transfer alot of information via "Memes". A meme is a
>"cultural thought pattern" that every culture has. It's almost ethereal in
a
>way. Twilight Zone......:)
>
>For instance, there was once a colony of apes that lived on an island very
>far away :) The primary source of food on this island was potatoes.
>Biologists observed the apes and saw that they had begun to dip the potato
>in the salt water before they took a bite as this gave it more taste and
>flavour. Keep in mind that these apes are confined to an island!!!
Biologist
>shortly afterwards observed the same behaviour in apes from other colonies.
>What is amazing is that the other colonies were on the opposite side of the
>planet. KNOWLEDGE TRAVELS. Hence "MEMES" or cultural thoughts, and are
>species specific. Another case would be the magpie's that strip off milk
>bottle tops to drink the milk. Nearly all magpies do this these days if the
>opportunity presents itself.
>
>"Memes" are everywhere. They shape who we are culturally, an ever evolving
>process. Do a search on Google to discover even more interesting
>memes....:):)


yes, I'm sure that this does happen, but this is due to the fact that the
mother apes teach the babies to do these things, it's not genetic. If you
take a sample of these monkeys and breed a few in captivity away from their
mothers and fathers, bring them up alone, and send them back to the island,
they don't have any innate sense, or instinct, to go and dip the potatoes in
water..

[The Madd Hatter]

You're probably right, though I was commenting on more of a broader scope.
Something like this would happen over millenia in the wild. behaviors
learned would be the result of massive generation affecting changes occuring
gradually over hundreds of years.. The sorta thing you either adapt to or go
extinct tryin.

"Paul" > wrote in message
...
>
> >
> >You're trying to battle a millenia of bred instincts w/ a fairly
> rudementary
> >form of conditioning, which is also incomplete. If you really want to
turn
> >this fish into a peaceful creature, enforce strict conditioning, breed
it,
> >enforce the same conditioning on the offspring, breed them, etc, etc, for
a
> >couple hundred generations. You might start to see a slight deviation
from
> >their natural behavior eventually.
>
> I hate to be picky Mr Hatter, but Darwinian evolution doesn't work this
way.
> Species don't pass on learned abilities or habits to their offspring
through
> their genes. they might be able to teach their offspring to do things or
not
> to do things, but as soon as you have a fry that has never seen it's mum
or
> dad, it doesn't have any ability to replicate these learned traits of the
> parents.
>
> everyone else has had a comment on this, so I thought I'd chime in! this
> is all in good humour mate, I might even be wrong..
>
>

[The Madd Hatter]

if the knowledge passes through enough generations, especially if it is a
survival issue, it eventually becomes an instinct. the animal becomes
pre-disposed towards reacting a certain way automatically, regardless of
whether that particular specimen had the opportunity to pick it up from
parents etc.

Some examples would be the various wolves and wild cats that people like to
keep as pets occasionally. These are usually the product of captive breeding
over at least a couple generations, where they've been exposed to humans and
climatized. You still get instances where these animals regress back to
instinct and do something nasty like attacking humans.

If you read about some of the unusual mating rituals that alot of african
cichlids have developed, and compare them to variations observed in
populations of fish that are believed to be of close or common species, you
will see what I mean. The patterns are often modified due to physical
environment, availablity of food, and proximity of predators. These patterns
have been ingrained so that even if you tank raise fry away from parents,
you will notice the differences inthe adults at adulthood. I propose that
all instincts have a reason for existing and hence at some point there was a
reason for the behavior to come into being.
"Paul" > wrote in message
...
>
> Cam wrote in message ...
> >> I hate to be picky Mr Hatter, but Darwinian evolution doesn't work this
> >way.
> >> Species don't pass on learned abilities or habits to their offspring
> >through
> >> their genes.
> >>
> >> everyone else has had a comment on this, so I thought I'd chime in!
> this
> >> is all in good humour mate, I might even be wrong..
> >
> >Hi Paul
> >
> >Yes....you are right....and wrong.
> >You're right in the sense that they don't "pass on" habits via the genes.
> >However they do transfer alot of information via "Memes". A meme is a
> >"cultural thought pattern" that every culture has. It's almost ethereal
in
> a
> >way. Twilight Zone......:)
> >
> >For instance, there was once a colony of apes that lived on an island
very
> >far away :) The primary source of food on this island was potatoes.
> >Biologists observed the apes and saw that they had begun to dip the
potato
> >in the salt water before they took a bite as this gave it more taste and
> >flavour. Keep in mind that these apes are confined to an island!!!
> Biologist
> >shortly afterwards observed the same behaviour in apes from other
colonies.
> >What is amazing is that the other colonies were on the opposite side of
the
> >planet. KNOWLEDGE TRAVELS. Hence "MEMES" or cultural thoughts, and are
> >species specific. Another case would be the magpie's that strip off milk
> >bottle tops to drink the milk. Nearly all magpies do this these days if
the
> >opportunity presents itself.
> >
> >"Memes" are everywhere. They shape who we are culturally, an ever
evolving
> >process. Do a search on Google to discover even more interesting
> >memes....:):)
>
>
> yes, I'm sure that this does happen, but this is due to the fact that the
> mother apes teach the babies to do these things, it's not genetic. If you
> take a sample of these monkeys and breed a few in captivity away from
their
> mothers and fathers, bring them up alone, and send them back to the
island,
> they don't have any innate sense, or instinct, to go and dip the potatoes
in
> water..
>
>

[The Madd Hatter]

my thoughts exactly.

"Rich Conley" > wrote in message
.. .
> how it does work though, is if you either only breed those who take best
to the
> conditioning, or only breed those who are least aggressive, you will end
up wiht
> a more suitable fish.
>
> Paul wrote:
>
> > >
> > >You're trying to battle a millenia of bred instincts w/ a fairly
> > rudementary
> > >form of conditioning, which is also incomplete. If you really want to
turn
> > >this fish into a peaceful creature, enforce strict conditioning, breed
it,
> > >enforce the same conditioning on the offspring, breed them, etc, etc,
for a
> > >couple hundred generations. You might start to see a slight deviation
from
> > >their natural behavior eventually.
> >
> > I hate to be picky Mr Hatter, but Darwinian evolution doesn't work this
way.
> > Species don't pass on learned abilities or habits to their offspring
through
> > their genes. they might be able to teach their offspring to do things or
not
> > to do things, but as soon as you have a fry that has never seen it's mum
or
> > dad, it doesn't have any ability to replicate these learned traits of
the
> > parents.
> >
> > everyone else has had a comment on this, so I thought I'd chime in!
this
> > is all in good humour mate, I might even be wrong..
>

[Paul]

The Madd Hatter wrote in message ...
>if the knowledge passes through enough generations, especially if it is a
>survival issue, it eventually becomes an instinct. the animal becomes
>pre-disposed towards reacting a certain way automatically, regardless of
>whether that particular specimen had the opportunity to pick it up from
>parents etc.
>
>Some examples would be the various wolves and wild cats that people like to
>keep as pets occasionally. These are usually the product of captive
breeding
>over at least a couple generations, where they've been exposed to humans
and
>climatized. You still get instances where these animals regress back to
>instinct and do something nasty like attacking humans.
>
>If you read about some of the unusual mating rituals that alot of african
>cichlids have developed, and compare them to variations observed in
>populations of fish that are believed to be of close or common species, you
>will see what I mean. The patterns are often modified due to physical
>environment, availablity of food, and proximity of predators. These
patterns
>have been ingrained so that even if you tank raise fry away from parents,
>you will notice the differences inthe adults at adulthood. I propose that
>all instincts have a reason for existing and hence at some point there was
a
>reason for the behavior to come into being.
>"Paul" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> Cam wrote in message ...
>> >> I hate to be picky Mr Hatter, but Darwinian evolution doesn't work
this
>> >way.
>> >> Species don't pass on learned abilities or habits to their offspring
>> >through
>> >> their genes.
>> >>
>> >> everyone else has had a comment on this, so I thought I'd chime in!
>> this
>> >> is all in good humour mate, I might even be wrong..
>> >
>> >Hi Paul
>> >
>> >Yes....you are right....and wrong.
>> >You're right in the sense that they don't "pass on" habits via the
genes.
>> >However they do transfer alot of information via "Memes". A meme is a
>> >"cultural thought pattern" that every culture has. It's almost ethereal
>in
>> a
>> >way. Twilight Zone......:)
>> >
>> >For instance, there was once a colony of apes that lived on an island
>very
>> >far away :) The primary source of food on this island was potatoes.
>> >Biologists observed the apes and saw that they had begun to dip the
>potato
>> >in the salt water before they took a bite as this gave it more taste and
>> >flavour. Keep in mind that these apes are confined to an island!!!
>> Biologist
>> >shortly afterwards observed the same behaviour in apes from other
>colonies.
>> >What is amazing is that the other colonies were on the opposite side of
>the
>> >planet. KNOWLEDGE TRAVELS. Hence "MEMES" or cultural thoughts, and are
>> >species specific. Another case would be the magpie's that strip off milk
>> >bottle tops to drink the milk. Nearly all magpies do this these days if
>the
>> >opportunity presents itself.
>> >
>> >"Memes" are everywhere. They shape who we are culturally, an ever
>evolving
>> >process. Do a search on Google to discover even more interesting
>> >memes....:):)
>>
>>
>> yes, I'm sure that this does happen, but this is due to the fact that the
>> mother apes teach the babies to do these things, it's not genetic. If you
>> take a sample of these monkeys and breed a few in captivity away from
>their
>> mothers and fathers, bring them up alone, and send them back to the
>island,
>> they don't have any innate sense, or instinct, to go and dip the potatoes
>in
>> water..

as far as I know, instincts develop just as physical attributes develop,
through natural selection. but I'm not 100% sure and I have no huge desire
to convince anyone of this, so I won't argue for the sake of it. There
aren't many arguements in this newsgroup, and I don't want to go starting
them..

to all the Americans, it was nice to have your president in our country!!

[myfullname]

never heard of that ..but fish are smart ...mmmm maybe
spanking next with the newspaper? :>




On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 20:09:07 -0400, "D&M" > wrote:

>I was at my local "experienced" lfs, inquiring about turning in one of my
>trouble makers, a Red Parrot cichlid.
>
>I was given a different alternative that I'd never heard of done to a fish
>before today, just wondering if anyone else has done it.
>
>When he is bad, catch him and lock him up is a breeder net for a while,
>cause he really won't like it. After he's released again, if he continues,
>lock him up again. She said she's locked them up for up to 4 days, only to
>let it back out and a 1/2 hour later lock up again. She said it works, fish
>are very smart, and will catch on what's bad and what the consiquences of
>their actions are.
>
>Well, as this is the first time I ever heard this, I had to try it, so
>tonight it the first night, got the trap set up, waiting for him to act up
>(which shouldn't take long).
>
>Cheers
>