will not gravel vaccuming kill my fish?

[sleddog]

i seldom gravel vac (maybe once every few months), but i do weekly 30%
water changes. i do have consistently high nitrates but all my fish have
been healthy and active for over a year. is gravel vaccuming a debatable
subject or is it irrefutably something i must do more often? i have a few
strands of anacharis plants on 1.5 inches of gravel substrate, a ugf hooked
up to an aquaclear 150 via custom made attachment and a free standing
marineland powerhead for aireation/water current.

[Bob K.]

>i seldom gravel vac (maybe once every few months), but i do weekly 30%
>water changes. i do have consistently high nitrates but all my fish have
>been healthy and active for over a year. is gravel vaccuming a debatable
>subject or is it irrefutably something i must do more often? i have a few
>strands of anacharis plants on 1.5 inches of gravel substrate, a ugf hooked
>up to an aquaclear 150 via custom made attachment and a free standing
>marineland powerhead for aireation/water current.

From personal experience - NOT vacumming gravel can lead to anerobic
bacteria buildup in the gravel.
You don't have to do it often, but you should do it if you can see detritus
buildup.

Bob

[Mark Stone]

sleddog > wrote in message >...
> i seldom gravel vac (maybe once every few months), but i do weekly 30%
> water changes. i do have consistently high nitrates but all my fish have
> been healthy and active for over a year. is gravel vaccuming a debatable
> subject or is it irrefutably something i must do more often? i have a few
> strands of anacharis plants on 1.5 inches of gravel substrate, a ugf hooked
> up to an aquaclear 150 via custom made attachment and a free standing
> marineland powerhead for aireation/water current.

You probably need to vacuum more often. I think the question is how
thoroughly. On your UGF system, I think that vacuuming very thoroughly
would remove alot of the Nitrobactor and Nitrosomonas bacteria that
makes UGF work, but yet not vacuuming at all (or only occasionally)
might allow the system to get blocked up when the substrate becomes
too dirty.

I'm surprised that you have mucho nitrates while doing 30% partials
weekly! Why don't you experiment -- the next two or three changes,
include a vacuuming, and then test for nitrates and see what turns up.

--Mark

Mark Stone tractorlegs at msn dot kom
OSCAR Lovers! http://www.geocities.com/cichlidiot_2000/oscar.html
The ".Edu" meens i are smart.

[Jonathan Wood]

I don't understand why you wouldn't do it with each water change. Most hoses
sold in the stores for siphoning aquarium water include a tube designed for
vacuuming the gravel. Simply start your water siphoning and run it around
the gravel a little bit. I would thing that would make an enormous
difference.

Jonathan

"sleddog" > wrote in message
. 4.10...
> i seldom gravel vac (maybe once every few months), but i do weekly 30%
> water changes. i do have consistently high nitrates but all my fish have
> been healthy and active for over a year. is gravel vaccuming a debatable
> subject or is it irrefutably something i must do more often? i have a few
> strands of anacharis plants on 1.5 inches of gravel substrate, a ugf
hooked
> up to an aquaclear 150 via custom made attachment and a free standing
> marineland powerhead for aireation/water current.

[sleddog]

(Bob K.) wrote in
:

> From personal experience - NOT vacumming gravel can lead to
> anerobic
> bacteria buildup in the gravel.
> You don't have to do it often, but you should do it if you can see
> detritus
> buildup.
>
> Bob
>

hi Bob, this anerobic bacteria build-up is what i hear a lot of.....in your
personal experience, have u actually seen this anaerobic bacteria? or
tested for it or have any factual proof that it built-up? i think this may
be a myth as most people can't actually prove there is anaerobic bacteria
bulding up......

[sleddog]

(Mark Stone) wrote in
om:

> You probably need to vacuum more often. I think the question is how
> thoroughly. On your UGF system, I think that vacuuming very thoroughly
> would remove alot of the Nitrobactor and Nitrosomonas bacteria that
> makes UGF work,

which is why i rather not mess with the substrate unless i *have* to.

but yet not vacuuming at all (or only occasionally)
> might allow the system to get blocked up when the substrate becomes
> too dirty.

I im *sure* i have water flow under the ugf because water is being pulled
by my hang on aquaclear,

>
> I'm surprised that you have mucho nitrates while doing 30% partials
> weekly! Why don't you experiment -- the next two or three changes,
> include a vacuuming, and then test for nitrates and see what turns up.
>
> --Mark
>

hi Mark, i am surprised too at my high level of nitrates, my tap water is
not at fault (as is the case in for many). I hesitate to vaccum also
because last time i did, the water got so cloudy for a few hours that i
believe it caused one of my fish to get very sick (it recovered).

[sleddog]

"Jonathan Wood" > wrote in
ink.net:

> I don't understand why you wouldn't do it with each water change. Most
> hoses sold in the stores for siphoning aquarium water include a tube
> designed for vacuuming the gravel.

i have a lot of rocks carefully balancing on top of each other and im
afraid vacuuming will make the cichlid "hotel" collapse.....

Simply start your water siphoning
> and run it around the gravel a little bit. I would thing that would
> make an enormous difference.
>
> Jonathan
>

hi Jonathan, i used to vacuum but stopped after not seeing an *enormous*
difference, i really want to create a state of "equilibrium" in the tank,
kind of like a bio-sphere, that resembles nature as much as possible.

[RedForeman ©®]

I can prove it.... or atleast attest to it's existance...

I have a planted 29g, with a huge pl*co, and various other community
members.... If I dont' vacuum the gravel on atleast 1 time per month, I can
see not so tiny air bubbles trapped against the glass under the gravel....
The first time I saw them I thought it was just air from the powerhead,
turns out, after I stirred it up, it smelled like sulphur, and I asked
someone here about it, they said that's what it was....

right or wrong, I believe in it... I've even killed a fish by allowing the
fish to be too close to the bubbles, and it inhaled one.... the next morning
it was floating.. it was a pearl gourami...male...



"sleddog" > wrote in message
. 4.10...
> (Bob K.) wrote in
> :
>
> > From personal experience - NOT vacumming gravel can lead to
> > anerobic
> > bacteria buildup in the gravel.
> > You don't have to do it often, but you should do it if you can see
> > detritus
> > buildup.
> >
> > Bob
> >
>
> hi Bob, this anerobic bacteria build-up is what i hear a lot of.....in
your
> personal experience, have u actually seen this anaerobic bacteria? or
> tested for it or have any factual proof that it built-up? i think this may
> be a myth as most people can't actually prove there is anaerobic bacteria
> bulding up......

[Jonathan Wood]

sleddog,

> i have a lot of rocks carefully balancing on top of each other and im
> afraid vacuuming will make the cichlid "hotel" collapse.....

My personal approach would be to implement a design that allows for easy
maintenance. I know it's a personal decision but, if your design does not
allow for vacuuming the gravel, I would rethink it.

> hi Jonathan, i used to vacuum but stopped after not seeing an *enormous*
> difference, i really want to create a state of "equilibrium" in the tank,
> kind of like a bio-sphere, that resembles nature as much as possible

I can appreciate this view but, clearly, there is nothing natural about fish
living in a small enclosed tank. Fish would normally populate the water much
more sparsely than in your tank. And there would be all sorts of water
cycles and various micro organisms that are processing the various materials
in and around the water.

There is also nothing natural about their waste being allowed to remain
underneath them.

Just my opinion.

Jonathan

[Bob K.]

I'm not going to copy any of the previous suggestions,
they're all good. The major point is, you cannot ignore
the buildup of anerobic bacteria in the gravel.

UGFs only serve to mask the problem. The UGF does
allow aerobic bacteria to use the gravel to remove the
nitrates, but there will still be pockets of anerobic
bacteria that will only increase as they emit their noxious
wastes into the gravel.

The crud that builds up under the UGF's will slowly
clog any filtering you had when it was new, and you
will eventually find that your nitrate levels will creep up
until you will find your fish having problems that will continue
to increase.

Bob