Causes of bloat in Malawi's..

[T]

I know tubifex worms contribute to Malawi's getting the bloat, but what
else causes this?? I am currently treating a fish for this problem, I am
using tetra C and appears to be working well... The water conditions are
meticulasly observed and the water changes are frequent ( approx 20% or more
weekly in an established tank..).. This is only the second fish I have had
get the bloat and both times it has been juvinial's...

--
Tim... Lost in the state of confusion... errr make that California..

[Rick]

"T" > wrote in message
k.net...
> I know tubifex worms contribute to Malawi's getting the bloat, but what
> else causes this?? I am currently treating a fish for this problem, I am
> using tetra C and appears to be working well... The water conditions are
> meticulasly observed and the water changes are frequent ( approx 20% or
more
> weekly in an established tank..).. This is only the second fish I have had
> get the bloat and both times it has been juvinial's...
>
> --
> Tim... Lost in the state of confusion... errr make that California..
>


Here is a cut and past from the Malawi Chiclid Home Page.

Rick

Malawi bloat (bacterial disease - gram negative)
DISEASE Causal pathogen(s) not certain - possibly multiple fungal/bacterial
or viral infection. It could be due to a metabolic or nutritional disorder.
SYMPTOMS Fish's body bloats out (as though full of roe) and, viewed from
above, scales stand away from body producing a pineapple-like appearance -
most common in Carp family and Anabantids. Long, pale faecal casts. Ulcers
on body, pale gills and a "pop eye" appearance are also common.
TREATMENT As soon as abdominal swelling is noted, isolate the fish and treat
with a broad spectrum antibiotic. Early treatment is essential. You could
use oxytetracycline (20-100 mg/ liter; five days bath, may need repeating),
tetracycline hydrochloride (40-100 mg/ liter; five days bath, may need
repeating) or minocycline hydrochloride. For minocycline we recommend
250mg/10 gallons of water. On day 2 change all the water and add the
medicine again at the same dose for another 2 days. Increase aeration during
treatment. Do not use minocycline a third time in a raw. Caution:
tetracyclines are photo sensitive - turn lights off during treatment -
better still cover the whole tank with a blanket. If the fish is still
eating, soak the food in a concentrated solution of the antibiotic before
feeding.
PREVENTION Avoid overfeeding or feeding the wrong kind of food (e.g.
vegetable matters to carnivores).


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

[RedForeman ©®]

I heard from Jim Brown many moons ago, the leading cause of malawi bloat was
feeding wrong food to the wrong fish... having incompatible fish in a tank
together, and feeding too generally.... get a herbivourous fish to eat meat,
you can and likely will get/cause bloat.. maybe google to find the original
article...

--

RedForeman ©®





"Rick" > wrote in message
news:GOuDb.719773$pl3.634083@pd7tw3no...
>
> "T" > wrote in message
> k.net...
> > I know tubifex worms contribute to Malawi's getting the bloat, but
what
> > else causes this?? I am currently treating a fish for this problem, I
am
> > using tetra C and appears to be working well... The water conditions
are
> > meticulasly observed and the water changes are frequent ( approx 20% or
> more
> > weekly in an established tank..).. This is only the second fish I have
had
> > get the bloat and both times it has been juvinial's...
> >
> > --
> > Tim... Lost in the state of confusion... errr make that California..
> >
>
>
> Here is a cut and past from the Malawi Chiclid Home Page.
>
> Rick
>
> Malawi bloat (bacterial disease - gram negative)
> DISEASE Causal pathogen(s) not certain - possibly multiple
fungal/bacterial
> or viral infection. It could be due to a metabolic or nutritional
disorder.
> SYMPTOMS Fish's body bloats out (as though full of roe) and, viewed from
> above, scales stand away from body producing a pineapple-like appearance -
> most common in Carp family and Anabantids. Long, pale faecal casts. Ulcers
> on body, pale gills and a "pop eye" appearance are also common.
> TREATMENT As soon as abdominal swelling is noted, isolate the fish and
treat
> with a broad spectrum antibiotic. Early treatment is essential. You could
> use oxytetracycline (20-100 mg/ liter; five days bath, may need
repeating),
> tetracycline hydrochloride (40-100 mg/ liter; five days bath, may need
> repeating) or minocycline hydrochloride. For minocycline we recommend
> 250mg/10 gallons of water. On day 2 change all the water and add the
> medicine again at the same dose for another 2 days. Increase aeration
during
> treatment. Do not use minocycline a third time in a raw. Caution:
> tetracyclines are photo sensitive - turn lights off during treatment -
> better still cover the whole tank with a blanket. If the fish is still
> eating, soak the food in a concentrated solution of the antibiotic before
> feeding.
> PREVENTION Avoid overfeeding or feeding the wrong kind of food (e.g.
> vegetable matters to carnivores).
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> ----
>
>

[Rick]

"RedForeman ©®" > wrote in message
...
> I heard from Jim Brown many moons ago, the leading cause of malawi bloat
was
> feeding wrong food to the wrong fish... having incompatible fish in a tank
> together, and feeding too generally.... get a herbivourous fish to eat
meat,
> you can and likely will get/cause bloat.. maybe google to find the
original
> article...
>
> --
>
> RedForeman ©®
>
>

At this time of the year especially it is time to reflect on those who are
gone and missed. I certainly learned a lot from Jim Brown when I got started
in this hobby.

Rick

[T]

Thanks fellows... This is the fish that is afflicted with the bloat... It is
a Kenyi, I am not sure of the scientific name for this fellow, but the first
one that had it was a Socolofi, many monthes ago. Both fish were about the
same age... Both of these are omnivore's correct? They get a great mix of
food such as frozen deshelled green peas, cichlid staple ( Hikari bits ),
HTH cichlid frenzy, frozen brine shrimp, and fresh live small guppies (
which I breed for show and food and they are known to be disease and
parasite free ). I figure this has been a decent diet as the rest of the
fish are healthy. Perhaps they may have been over feed as of late, as
someone mentioned this might also be a cause of problems... Parhaps twice a
day feeding is sufficent for them?? Thank you Gentlemen for your
assistance..

Tim...
"Rick" > wrote in message
news:JBFDb.724863$pl3.464870@pd7tw3no...
>
> "RedForeman ©®" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I heard from Jim Brown many moons ago, the leading cause of malawi bloat
> was
> > feeding wrong food to the wrong fish... having incompatible fish in a
tank
> > together, and feeding too generally.... get a herbivourous fish to eat
> meat,
> > you can and likely will get/cause bloat.. maybe google to find the
> original
> > article...
> >
> > --
> >
> > RedForeman ©®
> >
> >
>
> At this time of the year especially it is time to reflect on those who are
> gone and missed. I certainly learned a lot from Jim Brown when I got
started
> in this hobby.
>
> Rick
>
>

[Mephistopheles]

Red,

Are you positive Jim said that? Jim had rather limited experience
with rift lake cichlids, so I would have been surprised to see him
make an unqualified statement on that topic, though I suppose it is
possible.

In any event, I would disagree with that account. The causes of
bloat are unknown. There is speculation that it may be related to
the sorts of things you mention, but there is no solid evidence to
support one cause rather than another. People have fed carnivorous
diets to herbivorous fish without having problems with bloat.

Regards,
Meph

"RedForeman ©®" > wrote in
:

> I heard from Jim Brown many moons ago, the leading cause of
> malawi bloat was feeding wrong food to the wrong fish... having
> incompatible fish in a tank together, and feeding too
> generally.... get a herbivourous fish to eat meat, you can and
> likely will get/cause bloat.. maybe google to find the original
> article...
>
> --
>
> RedForeman ©®
>
>
>
>
>
> "Rick" > wrote in message
> news:GOuDb.719773$pl3.634083@pd7tw3no...
>>
>> "T" > wrote in message
>> k.net...
>> > I know tubifex worms contribute to Malawi's getting the
>> > bloat, but what else causes this?? I am currently treating
>> > a fish for this problem, I am using tetra C and appears to
>> > be working well... The water conditions are meticulasly
>> > observed and the water changes are frequent ( approx 20% or
>> > more weekly in an established tank..).. This is only the
>> > second fish I have had
>> > get the bloat and both times it has been juvinial's...
>> >
>> > --
>> > Tim... Lost in the state of confusion... errr make that
>> > California..
>> >
>>
>>
>> Here is a cut and past from the Malawi Chiclid Home Page.
>>
>> Rick
>>
>> Malawi bloat (bacterial disease - gram negative)
>> DISEASE Causal pathogen(s) not certain - possibly multiple
>> fungal/bacterial or viral infection. It could be due to a
>> metabolic or nutritional disorder. SYMPTOMS Fish's body bloats
>> out (as though full of roe) and, viewed from above, scales
>> stand away from body producing a pineapple-like appearance -
>> most common in Carp family and Anabantids. Long, pale faecal
>> casts. Ulcers on body, pale gills and a "pop eye" appearance
>> are also common. TREATMENT As soon as abdominal swelling is
>> noted, isolate the fish and treat with a broad spectrum
>> antibiotic. Early treatment is essential. You could use
>> oxytetracycline (20-100 mg/ liter; five days bath, may need
>> repeating), tetracycline hydrochloride (40-100 mg/ liter; five
>> days bath, may need repeating) or minocycline hydrochloride.
>> For minocycline we recommend 250mg/10 gallons of water. On day
>> 2 change all the water and add the medicine again at the same
>> dose for another 2 days. Increase aeration during treatment. Do
>> not use minocycline a third time in a raw. Caution:
>> tetracyclines are photo sensitive - turn lights off during
>> treatment - better still cover the whole tank with a blanket.
>> If the fish is still eating, soak the food in a concentrated
>> solution of the antibiotic before feeding. PREVENTION Avoid
>> overfeeding or feeding the wrong kind of food (e.g. vegetable
>> matters to carnivores).
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>> ---------- -- ----
>>
>>
>
>
>

[Mephistopheles]

Tim,

If your fish are already bloated, there is probably nothing that
can be done for those individuals. But you may want to treat the
rest of the tank. The standard bloat treatments are metronidazole
or Clout. The former is generally preferred because it puts less
stress on fish and does not discolor anything.

Both the fish you mention (the scientific name of the Kenyi is
Metriaclima lombardoi or, according to some authorities,
Pseudotropheus lombardoi) are, I believe, pretty much your standard
algae-grazing mbuna. None of these fish are strictly herbivorous,
but it would probably be best to lean towards the vegetarian side
of things when feeding them. Personally, I would eliminate the
frozen brine shrimp (some people claim this is associated with
bloat) in favor of mysis shrimp, and then I would feed them only as
a treat. Mysis shrimp have harder shells, so they should be less
likely to constipate the fish. I would also limit the guppies to
an occasional treat. It would be nice if there were significant
algae growth in your tank for your mbuna to graze on. As an
alternative or supplement, I would stick in a lettuce leaf every
once in awhile.

Hope this helps,
Meph

"T" > wrote in
k.net:

> Thanks fellows... This is the fish that is afflicted with the
> bloat... It is a Kenyi, I am not sure of the scientific name for
> this fellow, but the first one that had it was a Socolofi, many
> monthes ago. Both fish were about the same age... Both of these
> are omnivore's correct? They get a great mix of food such as
> frozen deshelled green peas, cichlid staple ( Hikari bits ), HTH
> cichlid frenzy, frozen brine shrimp, and fresh live small
> guppies ( which I breed for show and food and they are known to
> be disease and parasite free ). I figure this has been a decent
> diet as the rest of the fish are healthy. Perhaps they may have
> been over feed as of late, as someone mentioned this might also
> be a cause of problems... Parhaps twice a day feeding is
> sufficent for them?? Thank you Gentlemen for your assistance..
>
> Tim...
> "Rick" > wrote in message
> news:JBFDb.724863$pl3.464870@pd7tw3no...
>>
>> "RedForeman ©®" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > I heard from Jim Brown many moons ago, the leading cause of
>> > malawi bloat was feeding wrong food to the wrong fish...
>> > having incompatible fish in a tank together, and feeding too
>> > generally.... get a herbivourous fish to eat meat, you can
>> > and likely will get/cause bloat.. maybe google to find the
>> > original article...
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > RedForeman ©®
>> >
>> >
>>
>> At this time of the year especially it is time to reflect on
>> those who are gone and missed. I certainly learned a lot from
>> Jim Brown when I got started in this hobby.
>>
>> Rick
>>
>>
>
>

[Spindoctor]

On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 17:07:31 GMT, Mephistopheles
> wrote:

>Red,
>
>Are you positive Jim said that? Jim had rather limited experience
>with rift lake cichlids, so I would have been surprised to see him
>make an unqualified statement on that topic, though I suppose it is
>possible.
>
>In any event, I would disagree with that account. The causes of
>bloat are unknown. There is speculation that it may be related to
>the sorts of things you mention, but there is no solid evidence to
>support one cause rather than another. People have fed carnivorous
>diets to herbivorous fish without having problems with bloat.
>
>Regards,
>Meph
>

At one of my local shops the chap who is into malawis (and breeds
them) claims that blood worms cause no problems in reasonable amounts
- he said that someone a few years ago claimed it causes bloat and it
became received wisdom

Brian

[T]

Meph, I believe this is the bloat we have battled.. The Socolofi recovered
from what we believe was the bloat, appeared like lump then opened to an
open wound ( this was behind the gill plate on the abdomin ). The Socolofi
is fine and she even had a brood of babys. Now the Kenyi has improved
greatly as well.. He had the same appearance of the lump, but it never
opened up. Both of these fish were treated with tetracycline. The Socolofi
though spent about three monthes in qaurenten until the wound healed up..


As to feeding them, the brine shrimp and guppies are treats... (the
later being less than once a month )the brine shrimp is maybe every 2 weeks
or so.. We let the algae grow on the back glass of the tank and the rocks in
the tank, and watch many of the different Cic's feast on it from time to
time.. As far as vegi's, we feed from time to time skinless frozen peas..
Which are also devoured whole heartedly but all the inhabitants of this
tank..

Tim...
"Mephistopheles" > wrote in
message nk.net...
> Tim,
>
> If your fish are already bloated, there is probably nothing that
> can be done for those individuals. But you may want to treat the
> rest of the tank. The standard bloat treatments are metronidazole
> or Clout. The former is generally preferred because it puts less
> stress on fish and does not discolor anything.
>
> Both the fish you mention (the scientific name of the Kenyi is
> Metriaclima lombardoi or, according to some authorities,
> Pseudotropheus lombardoi) are, I believe, pretty much your standard
> algae-grazing mbuna. None of these fish are strictly herbivorous,
> but it would probably be best to lean towards the vegetarian side
> of things when feeding them. Personally, I would eliminate the
> frozen brine shrimp (some people claim this is associated with
> bloat) in favor of mysis shrimp, and then I would feed them only as
> a treat. Mysis shrimp have harder shells, so they should be less
> likely to constipate the fish. I would also limit the guppies to
> an occasional treat. It would be nice if there were significant
> algae growth in your tank for your mbuna to graze on. As an
> alternative or supplement, I would stick in a lettuce leaf every
> once in awhile.
>
> Hope this helps,
> Meph
>
> "T" > wrote in
> k.net:
>
> > Thanks fellows... This is the fish that is afflicted with the
> > bloat... It is a Kenyi, I am not sure of the scientific name for
> > this fellow, but the first one that had it was a Socolofi, many
> > monthes ago. Both fish were about the same age... Both of these
> > are omnivore's correct? They get a great mix of food such as
> > frozen deshelled green peas, cichlid staple ( Hikari bits ), HTH
> > cichlid frenzy, frozen brine shrimp, and fresh live small
> > guppies ( which I breed for show and food and they are known to
> > be disease and parasite free ). I figure this has been a decent
> > diet as the rest of the fish are healthy. Perhaps they may have
> > been over feed as of late, as someone mentioned this might also
> > be a cause of problems... Parhaps twice a day feeding is
> > sufficent for them?? Thank you Gentlemen for your assistance..
> >
> > Tim...
> > "Rick" > wrote in message
> > news:JBFDb.724863$pl3.464870@pd7tw3no...
> >>
> >> "RedForeman ©®" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> > I heard from Jim Brown many moons ago, the leading cause of
> >> > malawi bloat was feeding wrong food to the wrong fish...
> >> > having incompatible fish in a tank together, and feeding too
> >> > generally.... get a herbivourous fish to eat meat, you can
> >> > and likely will get/cause bloat.. maybe google to find the
> >> > original article...
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> >
> >> > RedForeman ©®
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> At this time of the year especially it is time to reflect on
> >> those who are gone and missed. I certainly learned a lot from
> >> Jim Brown when I got started in this hobby.
> >>
> >> Rick
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>

[T]

"Spindoctor" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 17:07:31 GMT, Mephistopheles
> > wrote:
>
> >Red,
> >
> >Are you positive Jim said that? Jim had rather limited experience
> >with rift lake cichlids, so I would have been surprised to see him
> >make an unqualified statement on that topic, though I suppose it is
> >possible.
> >
> >In any event, I would disagree with that account. The causes of
> >bloat are unknown. There is speculation that it may be related to
> >the sorts of things you mention, but there is no solid evidence to
> >support one cause rather than another. People have fed carnivorous
> >diets to herbivorous fish without having problems with bloat.
> >
> >Regards,
> >Meph
> >
>
> At one of my local shops the chap who is into malawis (and breeds
> them) claims that blood worms cause no problems in reasonable amounts
> - he said that someone a few years ago claimed it causes bloat and it
> became received wisdom
>
> Brian

I understand that tubifex worms may be a cause of the bloat ( freeze dried
type ).. Never seemed to have had many problems with BW's, although they are
not even a regular treat in my tanks ( exception is the guppy tanks get some
for three days straight once a month, seems to induce pregnancy in these
guys )..

Tim....

[Mephistopheles]

Tim,

Thanks for the additional information. What you describe is
definitely not Malawi bloat. The first symptom of Malawi bloat is
fish spitting out food. This goes on for several days than the
fish stops eating altogether. Then pretty much the entire fish
starts to puff up like a balloon. The fish may even start to
resemble a pine cone since the bloating makes the scales stick out.
Death follows soon thereafter. Rift lake cichlids often suffer
from a related problem which is exactly like the above, except no
bloating occurs -- the fish just stops eating and dies.

In any event, I really have no idea what the problem with your fish
might be. You might want to get a book on the subject, one good
one is "Manual of Fish Health" by Chris Andrews, et al. Recently
came out in a new edition.

Regards,
Meph

"T" > wrote in
nk.net:

> Meph, I believe this is the bloat we have battled.. The
> Socolofi recovered
> from what we believe was the bloat, appeared like lump then
> opened to an open wound ( this was behind the gill plate on the
> abdomin ). The Socolofi is fine and she even had a brood of
> babys. Now the Kenyi has improved greatly as well.. He had the
> same appearance of the lump, but it never opened up. Both of
> these fish were treated with tetracycline. The Socolofi though
> spent about three monthes in qaurenten until the wound healed
> up..
>
>
> As to feeding them, the brine shrimp and guppies are
> treats... (the
> later being less than once a month )the brine shrimp is maybe
> every 2 weeks or so.. We let the algae grow on the back glass of
> the tank and the rocks in the tank, and watch many of the
> different Cic's feast on it from time to time.. As far as
> vegi's, we feed from time to time skinless frozen peas.. Which
> are also devoured whole heartedly but all the inhabitants of
> this tank..
>
> Tim...