The Future of Fish.

[Bassett]

I found this rubbish // crap // propaganda on another news group, and while
I,m not in the market for SPAM, Its very handy to know what the Nut case
section of the Community are up to,,,
These are the links,, Your choice, delete the post or click the link..

Thanks bassett

For your interested, Advocates for Animals (Scotland, UK) are
> launching a campaign called GLASS PRISONS, EMPTY LIVES about the
> problems of keeping tropical fish. You can see it at:
>
> http://www.advocatesforanimals.org/glassprisons/glassprisons.htm
>
> Also, few days ago they launched one about exotic pets:
>
> http://www.advocatesforanimals.org/exotics
>

['nutherBob]

Pardon a lurker and an "inherited" cichlid amateur for butting in, but what
does that group plan to do next... open the flood gates at SeaWorld? If
this should happen, I guess I'll just have to allow my cat and dog to roam
the city then, too.

Rubbish and propaganda, I certainly agree Bassett.

'nutherBob

"Bassett" > wrote in message
...
> I found this rubbish // crap // propaganda on another news group, and
while
> I,m not in the market for SPAM, Its very handy to know what the Nut case
> section of the Community are up to,,,
> These are the links,, Your choice, delete the post or click the link..
>
> Thanks bassett
>
> For your interested, Advocates for Animals (Scotland, UK) are
> > launching a campaign called GLASS PRISONS, EMPTY LIVES about the
> > problems of keeping tropical fish. You can see it at:
> >
> > http://www.advocatesforanimals.org/glassprisons/glassprisons.htm
> >
> > Also, few days ago they launched one about exotic pets:
> >
> > http://www.advocatesforanimals.org/exotics
> >
>
>
>

[Dustin The-Wind]

There was a well known "preacher/evangelist" a while back who reported
seeing homosexuality being promoted by a puppet type character in a kids
show. I always wondered why the fact this guy watches children shows
with homosexuality on his mind never became an issue.

When someone starts to state their "position" on how the cartoon
characters in a Dissy-ne movie reflects how fish REALLY
feel...well...the rest of their mess-age is lost on me.

(Like the guy I mentioned above. I didn't have to check the Bible for
God's review of kids shows..and..I don't think going to this movie will
have me begin to think children better learn about nature/fish from a
cartoon, than nurturing and caring for 2 Platys and 6 Guppies)

[Mark]

Bassett wrote:

> I found this rubbish // crap // propaganda on another news group, and while
> I,m not in the market for SPAM, Its very handy to know what the Nut case
> section of the Community are up to,,,
> These are the links,, Your choice, delete the post or click the link..
>
> Thanks bassett
>
> For your interested, Advocates for Animals (Scotland, UK) are
>
>>launching a campaign called GLASS PRISONS, EMPTY LIVES about the
>>problems of keeping tropical fish. You can see it at:
>>
>> http://www.advocatesforanimals.org/glassprisons/glassprisons.htm
>>
>>Also, few days ago they launched one about exotic pets:
>>
>>http://www.advocatesforanimals.org/exotics
>>
>
>
>
>
I'm reminded of an "Animal Rights" group which released a bunch of mink
from a mink farm here in N.E. Iowa. They "freed" about 2000 of the
little fellers from certain death and the newly liberated mink promptly...

.... died by the hundreds and hundreds from exposure and starvation.
Seems cage raised mink ain't too good at life in the wild. They were
literally shovelling them up off the roads.
And of course the ones that did survive impacted the local ecosphere by
competing with directly with the existing predators for the same food
supply. Way to go guys!



Mark

[Ross Vandegrift]

On 2003-12-27, Mark > wrote:
> I'm reminded of an "Animal Rights" group which released a bunch of mink
> from a mink farm here in N.E. Iowa. They "freed" about 2000 of the
> little fellers from certain death and the newly liberated mink promptly...

Did you guys actaully read the article? They go on to talk about the
problem of children flushing fish down the toilet to "free" them into
waterways, and it killing them. The article addresses that this isn't
a solution.

The essay is really just advocating humane treatment of fish - from the
distributers raising fish, to suppliers transporting fish, to the point
of sale. While it does slant against the fishkeeping hobby, I think the
kernel of truth here is that we do have a resonponsibility to act in the
interests of our *living* companions, not in the interests of our own
entertainment.


--
Ross Vandegrift


A Pope has a Water Cannon. It is a Water Cannon.
He fires Holy-Water from it. It is a Holy-Water Cannon.
He Blesses it. It is a Holy Holy-Water Cannon.
He Blesses the Hell out of it. It is a Wholly Holy Holy-Water Cannon.
He has it pierced. It is a Holey Wholly Holy Holy-Water Cannon.
He makes it official. It is a Canon Holey Wholly Holy Holy-Water Cannon.
Batman and Robin arrive. He shoots them.

[Bob]

"Ross Vandegrift" > wrote in message
m...
> The essay is really just advocating humane treatment of fish - from the
> distributers raising fish, to suppliers transporting fish, to the point
> of sale. While it does slant against the fishkeeping hobby, I think the
> kernel of truth here is that we do have a resonponsibility to act in the
> interests of our *living* companions, not in the interests of our own
> entertainment.
>
>
> --
> Ross Vandegrift
>


Yeah I agree with you...

I think the point is it is cruel to keep any type of animal in an unfit
habitat...whether it be a fish or a bird...or even a dog or a cat.

Some people keep their fish in way to small a tank and that is cruel I
guess. Some people also don't put their fish in a suitable habitat with
suitable tank mates, so this is also hard on the fish.

I think it is a questionable practice to keep anything that was caught in
the wild, and should be done only by the most advanced aquarists with
motivations of breeding them.

Bob

[Spindoctor]

On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 17:41:49 +1100, "Bassett"
> wrote:

>I found this rubbish // crap // propaganda on another news group, and while
>I,m not in the market for SPAM, Its very handy to know what the Nut case
>section of the Community are up to,,,
> These are the links,, Your choice, delete the post or click the link..
>
> Thanks bassett
>
>For your interested, Advocates for Animals (Scotland, UK) are
>> launching a campaign called GLASS PRISONS, EMPTY LIVES about the
>> problems of keeping tropical fish. You can see it at:
>>
>> http://www.advocatesforanimals.org/glassprisons/glassprisons.htm
>>
>> Also, few days ago they launched one about exotic pets:
>>
>> http://www.advocatesforanimals.org/exotics
>>
>
>
Sorry - but while I don't agree with everything the writer says he/she
still has a number of fair points

I suspect everyone on this group keeps therir fish in a healthy
environment, but I recently sold a fluval filter to a woman who should
never have kept fish, she had six massive fish (12 inches) plus in a
3ft tank with water so murky you could not see the fish properly. She
only wanted the filter to clear the water, trying to explain that it
needed running side by side with the existing filter for a few weeks
and putting in more media that I had included to cope with the load
such fish would put on it fell on almost deaf ears.

I don't think that she is untypical, based on conversations I
over-hear at lfs, the amount of fish that go home to almost certain
death within a couple of weeks must be very high.

Brian

[The Madd Hatter]

I read the article and I believe you are incorrect. The article is
condemning the keeping of fish in aquariums as inhumane and barbaric. It is
advocating action against pet stores that keep fish in sub standard
conditions BUT it is also saying that fish should not be kept in aquariums
at all. Now they had alot of the horrible examples listed and these are ones
that I agree w/ the author on. Alot of things happen in this industry that
are beyond inhumane. The author did not seem to mention anything about the
positive side of the hobby. No mention at all of the myriad species from
Lake Victoria that are saved from extinction only because they exist in
aquariums. I am sure this is the case for a lot of other regions as well.

They have a one sided argument and as such the merits of their arguement are
negated by the fact that they have a skewed view of reality.
"Ross Vandegrift" > wrote in message
m...
> On 2003-12-27, Mark > wrote:
> > I'm reminded of an "Animal Rights" group which released a bunch of mink
> > from a mink farm here in N.E. Iowa. They "freed" about 2000 of the
> > little fellers from certain death and the newly liberated mink
promptly...
>
> Did you guys actaully read the article? They go on to talk about the
> problem of children flushing fish down the toilet to "free" them into
> waterways, and it killing them. The article addresses that this isn't
> a solution.
>
> The essay is really just advocating humane treatment of fish - from the
> distributers raising fish, to suppliers transporting fish, to the point
> of sale. While it does slant against the fishkeeping hobby, I think the
> kernel of truth here is that we do have a resonponsibility to act in the
> interests of our *living* companions, not in the interests of our own
> entertainment.
>
>
> --
> Ross Vandegrift
>
>
> A Pope has a Water Cannon. It is a Water
Cannon.
> He fires Holy-Water from it. It is a Holy-Water
Cannon.
> He Blesses it. It is a Holy Holy-Water
Cannon.
> He Blesses the Hell out of it. It is a Wholly Holy Holy-Water
Cannon.
> He has it pierced. It is a Holey Wholly Holy Holy-Water
Cannon.
> He makes it official. It is a Canon Holey Wholly Holy Holy-Water
Cannon.
> Batman and Robin arrive. He shoots
them.

[Ross Vandegrift]

On 2003-12-28, The Madd Hatter > wrote:
> They have a one sided argument and as such the merits of their arguement are
> negated by the fact that they have a skewed view of reality.

Well, I agree that people of this persuasion can (and do) write unfairly
slanted articles. But I think the tactic isn't used to try and destroy
the ethical aquarist.

People listen better when you say something kind of shocking. How many
people do you know that would listen to someone rant about foul
fishkeeping conditions? Of those people that would listen (if you can
think of any), now subtract everyone who doesn't need to hear it. I'll
bet you have very few left.

It's the reason groups like PETA say really outlandish things just to
get people's attention. The core message of "we should try and be nicer
to all animals" doesn't net nearly as many listeners as "meat is
murder" or "glass houses, empty lives."

I advocate taking any extremeism with a pinch of salt - it helps cut
through the out layer that just pulls you in.

--
Ross Vandegrift


A Pope has a Water Cannon. It is a Water Cannon.
He fires Holy-Water from it. It is a Holy-Water Cannon.
He Blesses it. It is a Holy Holy-Water Cannon.
He Blesses the Hell out of it. It is a Wholly Holy Holy-Water Cannon.
He has it pierced. It is a Holey Wholly Holy Holy-Water Cannon.
He makes it official. It is a Canon Holey Wholly Holy Holy-Water Cannon.
Batman and Robin arrive. He shoots them.

[Mephistopheles]

But this group has only exposed the tip of the iceberg! There are
millions, if not billions, of fish around the world living in the
wild in undersized streams, pools, and small ponds. These fish
must be relocated, or their living quarters enlarged, so that they
can enjoy a decent quality of life. Also, many fish, such as clown
fish, spend their entire lives never venturing more than a few feet
from a particular location -- essentially, they are confined by
their own narrow conception of what constitutes "their territory".
A massive education campaign needs to be undertaken, so that these
fish will learn that there is a much larger world out there. We
need to offer them fish field trips to expand their minds and
broaden their appreciation of fish cultures in other parts of the
watery world.

Meph

"Bassett" > wrote in
:

> I found this rubbish // crap // propaganda on another news
> group, and while I,m not in the market for SPAM, Its very handy
> to know what the Nut case section of the Community are up to,,,
> These are the links,, Your choice, delete the post or click the
> link..
>
> Thanks
> bassett
>
> For your interested, Advocates for Animals (Scotland, UK) are
>> launching a campaign called GLASS PRISONS, EMPTY LIVES about
>> the problems of keeping tropical fish. You can see it at:
>>
>> http://www.advocatesforanimals.org/glassprisons/glassprisons.ht
>> m
>>
>> Also, few days ago they launched one about exotic pets:
>>
>> http://www.advocatesforanimals.org/exotics
>>
>
>
>

[The Madd Hatter]

I grew up in the land of extremism. I find it hard to give any reasonable
credit to anyone who uses tactics like that to get attention. I still find a
well researched paper that covers both ends of an issue then clearly states
the reasoning behind the authors stance in comparision to the opposing
stance, to be a much more effective method of convincing people.
"Ross Vandegrift" > wrote in message
m...
> On 2003-12-28, The Madd Hatter > wrote:
> > They have a one sided argument and as such the merits of their arguement
are
> > negated by the fact that they have a skewed view of reality.
>
> Well, I agree that people of this persuasion can (and do) write unfairly
> slanted articles. But I think the tactic isn't used to try and destroy
> the ethical aquarist.
>
> People listen better when you say something kind of shocking. How many
> people do you know that would listen to someone rant about foul
> fishkeeping conditions? Of those people that would listen (if you can
> think of any), now subtract everyone who doesn't need to hear it. I'll
> bet you have very few left.
>
> It's the reason groups like PETA say really outlandish things just to
> get people's attention. The core message of "we should try and be nicer
> to all animals" doesn't net nearly as many listeners as "meat is
> murder" or "glass houses, empty lives."
>
> I advocate taking any extremeism with a pinch of salt - it helps cut
> through the out layer that just pulls you in.
>
> --
> Ross Vandegrift
>
>
> A Pope has a Water Cannon. It is a Water
Cannon.
> He fires Holy-Water from it. It is a Holy-Water
Cannon.
> He Blesses it. It is a Holy Holy-Water
Cannon.
> He Blesses the Hell out of it. It is a Wholly Holy Holy-Water
Cannon.
> He has it pierced. It is a Holey Wholly Holy Holy-Water
Cannon.
> He makes it official. It is a Canon Holey Wholly Holy Holy-Water
Cannon.
> Batman and Robin arrive. He shoots
them.

[Bassett]

I posted the original link, on this subject,, And I agree with you on your
findings,
they always dig the dirt, But what they forget, when they talk about all
this death and disorder, is the fact that people breed, sell, export,
import, wholesale, and retail, to make a living, and they simply can't
afford huge looses, that these people maintain happens,,
But unfortunately like all things, sensationalism bring attention to the
subject,
How many people started in fish keeping, simply because little Johnny, won
a goldfish at the local Country Fair. At the total despair of Mum.


bassett




"The Madd Hatter" > wrote in message
t.cable.rogers.com...
> I grew up in the land of extremism. I find it hard to give any reasonable
> credit to anyone who uses tactics like that to get attention. I still find
a
> well researched paper that covers both ends of an issue then clearly
states
> the reasoning behind the authors stance in comparision to the opposing
> stance, to be a much more effective method of convincing people.
> "Ross Vandegrift" > wrote in message
> m...
> > On 2003-12-28, The Madd Hatter >
wrote:
> > > They have a one sided argument and as such the merits of their
arguement
> are
> > > negated by the fact that they have a skewed view of reality.
> >
> > Well, I agree that people of this persuasion can (and do) write unfairly
> > slanted articles. But I think the tactic isn't used to try and destroy
> > the ethical aquarist.
> >
> > People listen better when you say something kind of shocking. How many
> > people do you know that would listen to someone rant about foul
> > fishkeeping conditions? Of those people that would listen (if you can
> > think of any), now subtract everyone who doesn't need to hear it. I'll
> > bet you have very few left.
> >
> > It's the reason groups like PETA say really outlandish things just to
> > get people's attention. The core message of "we should try and be nicer
> > to all animals" doesn't net nearly as many listeners as "meat is
> > murder" or "glass houses, empty lives."
> >
> > I advocate taking any extremeism with a pinch of salt - it helps cut
> > through the out layer that just pulls you in.
> >
> > --
> > Ross Vandegrift
> >
> >
> > A Pope has a Water Cannon. It is a Water
> Cannon.
> > He fires Holy-Water from it. It is a Holy-Water
> Cannon.
> > He Blesses it. It is a Holy Holy-Water
> Cannon.
> > He Blesses the Hell out of it. It is a Wholly Holy Holy-Water
> Cannon.
> > He has it pierced. It is a Holey Wholly Holy Holy-Water
> Cannon.
> > He makes it official. It is a Canon Holey Wholly Holy Holy-Water
> Cannon.
> > Batman and Robin arrive. He shoots
> them.
>
>

[Kay]

The Madd Hatter wrote:

> I read the article and I believe you are incorrect. The article is
> condemning the keeping of fish in aquariums as inhumane and barbaric. It is
> advocating action against pet stores that keep fish in sub standard
> conditions BUT it is also saying that fish should not be kept in aquariums
> at all. Now they had alot of the horrible examples listed and these are ones
> that I agree w/ the author on. Alot of things happen in this industry that
> are beyond inhumane. The author did not seem to mention anything about the
> positive side of the hobby. No mention at all of the myriad species from
> Lake Victoria that are saved from extinction only because they exist in
> aquariums. I am sure this is the case for a lot of other regions as well.
>
> They have a one sided argument and as such the merits of their arguement are
> negated by the fact that they have a skewed view of reality.
> "Ross Vandegrift" > wrote in message
> m...
>
>>On 2003-12-27, Mark > wrote:
>>
>>>I'm reminded of an "Animal Rights" group which released a bunch of mink
>>>from a mink farm here in N.E. Iowa. They "freed" about 2000 of the
>>>little fellers from certain death and the newly liberated mink
>
> promptly...
>
>>Did you guys actaully read the article? They go on to talk about the
>>problem of children flushing fish down the toilet to "free" them into
>>waterways, and it killing them. The article addresses that this isn't
>>a solution.
>>
>>The essay is really just advocating humane treatment of fish - from the
>>distributers raising fish, to suppliers transporting fish, to the point
>>of sale. While it does slant against the fishkeeping hobby, I think the
>>kernel of truth here is that we do have a resonponsibility to act in the
>>interests of our *living* companions, not in the interests of our own
>>entertainment.
>>
>>
>>--
>>Ross Vandegrift

>>
>>A Pope has a Water Cannon. It is a Water
>
> Cannon.
>
>>He fires Holy-Water from it. It is a Holy-Water
>
> Cannon.
>
>>He Blesses it. It is a Holy Holy-Water
>
> Cannon.
>
>>He Blesses the Hell out of it. It is a Wholly Holy Holy-Water
>
> Cannon.
>
>>He has it pierced. It is a Holey Wholly Holy Holy-Water
>
> Cannon.
>
>>He makes it official. It is a Canon Holey Wholly Holy Holy-Water
>
> Cannon.
>
>>Batman and Robin arrive. He shoots
>
> them.
>
>
I think your right. They do not want us to have aquariums, exotic pets
and PETA already admits that pets should not be allowed at all. The
message is loud and clear. I have a dog ,<adopted>, a cat<sdopted> and
fish<90 percent adopted> and I take care of all of them. If there is a
lack of education out there then advocating education is fine, but
trying to take away our pets and hobbies is not fine at all.

Kay