pH... Is it a sacred cow??

[Keester]

OK, here is my beef with aquarium related media... I did not jump into
keeping Africans right away because of the need to adjust the pH of my tap
water. Then after keeping a Texas Cichlid and some other poor fish that he
ate through his 5 years as my pet, I kept seeing pet stores changing water
in their tanks with Africans right out of the faucet and not using anything
to adjust pH.... So one say I went up and asked they owner of the shop
"Don't you guys have to jack up the pH for those Africans?" and got the
reply of "They are freshwater fish so they are pretty hardy and can deal
with it fine. Besides, the breeder I got them from breeds his in straight
tap water"

So after my dearly departed Texas cichlid went to fishy hell (he was a
murderer, no matter how much I loved him, thats where he went ;~) I bought
60 pounds of scrap black slate from a granite/stone place at 50 cents a
pound or somewhere near 100 times less than the petstore wanted, arranged my
tank, and dropped in 12 Africans.

It has been a little over a year the tank is good and the fish are happy. So
I ask this of the group. Why is it in every magazine I read or post on a
forum or whatever does pH come up in relation to Africans and it is made to
sound like unless you are willing to make serious chemical changes to the
water that you cannot keep them?

So lets all be honest of the people here who keep Africans how many of you
monkey with the water and how many of you do not and get good results
regardless?

[John B]

Well.. The pH here outta the tap is 7.8-8.0 depending on the time of day
which is just dandy perfect for africans. Most freshwater fish will survive
in any pH as long as it's not extreme.. and doesn't flucuate rapidly. an
oscar might not live very long in pH of 8.2 where africans will find
fantastic...or africans in a pH of 6 won't be happy where an oscar will
strive.. They thing about keeping the pH where it's recommended should be
taken into consideration when you're trying to match the natural environment
for the sake of doing it. The fish are the most healthy when they're in
their closest to natural environment. as we all know, a healthy fish is a
beautiful fish :)

"Keester" > wrote in message
news:GmLKb.769631$Fm2.742171@attbi_s04...
> OK, here is my beef with aquarium related media... I did not jump into
> keeping Africans right away because of the need to adjust the pH of my tap
> water. Then after keeping a Texas Cichlid and some other poor fish that he
> ate through his 5 years as my pet, I kept seeing pet stores changing water
> in their tanks with Africans right out of the faucet and not using
anything
> to adjust pH.... So one say I went up and asked they owner of the shop
> "Don't you guys have to jack up the pH for those Africans?" and got the
> reply of "They are freshwater fish so they are pretty hardy and can deal
> with it fine. Besides, the breeder I got them from breeds his in straight
> tap water"
>
> So after my dearly departed Texas cichlid went to fishy hell (he was a
> murderer, no matter how much I loved him, thats where he went ;~) I
bought
> 60 pounds of scrap black slate from a granite/stone place at 50 cents a
> pound or somewhere near 100 times less than the petstore wanted, arranged
my
> tank, and dropped in 12 Africans.
>
> It has been a little over a year the tank is good and the fish are happy.
So
> I ask this of the group. Why is it in every magazine I read or post on a
> forum or whatever does pH come up in relation to Africans and it is made
to
> sound like unless you are willing to make serious chemical changes to the
> water that you cannot keep them?
>
> So lets all be honest of the people here who keep Africans how many of you
> monkey with the water and how many of you do not and get good results
> regardless?
>
>

[Amateur]

Keester,
Your questions are understandable, but the guy in the shop saying all
freshwater fish are hardy is right up there on the ignorance level of selling
neon tetras with angelfish. When dealing with Rift Lake African cichlids, pH is
important. More important than a high pH is a stable pH. These fish are very
sensitive to fluctuations not only in the pH of the water but also in
temperature. Fish can be acclimated to live in varying levels of pH, but the
stability is what's most important. For long lived, happy Rift Lake Cichlids, a
pH of 7.8 or higher would be best. Many, like myself get this straight from the
tap. If my tap water came out at pH of 7, I'd probably keep more South
Americans.
Other African cichlids, like West African riverine species are more used to
a lower pH. This is caused by the slow moving rivers with the rotting
vegetation. However, due to rain seasons, dry seasons, etc, the pH and
temperature of their natural habitat fluctuates. Now these are some hardy fish.
But pH still plays a role. Take the Kribensis for instance, when the pH is above
7.4, the result is a brood of mostly males. The pH needs to be closer to 7 to
get an even female to male mix. Many riverine fish, including most South
Americans you can't even get to breed if the pH is too high.
Also, consider the Neolamprologus leleupi. A beautiful fish from Lake
Tanganyika. This fish was originally thought to come from the rivers around the
lake so when first introduced into the hobby, it was kept in soft water with a
low pH. The hobbyists were baffled as to why non of their fish would live more
than a year. This isn't something a shop who moves fish in and out would see.
But it is something they should go out of their way to learn. In the end, no one
can tell you what your pH level has to be, but trying to get it closer to what
the fish are used to will go a long way in making sure your next group of fish
last as long as your Texas Cichlid did. By the way, you never mentioned what
your pH is out of the tap. You also don't mention what types of Africans you
purchased.
Amateur
www.amateurcichlids.com

[Rich A.]

"Keester" > wrote in message
news:GmLKb.769631$Fm2.742171@attbi_s04...
>
> So lets all be honest of the people here who keep Africans how many of you
> monkey with the water and how many of you do not and get good results
> regardless?

My tap water comes out around 6.8-7.0. But I have enough coral substrate and
limestone to elevate the pH to higher levels. I will sometimes add a Buffer
solution to get it above 8.0 if it won't get there naturally.

[Keester]

Hello Amateur! I posted a list of my fish on your website but here is
a recap. (btw if you guys havent checks out Amateurs site... go now,
it is one of the best cichlid sites I have seen)

I have a 90 gallon mixed african setup with about 60-80 pounds of rock
for structure with a dark colored river pebble substrate. 2 magnum 350
canister filters with one pushing a bio wheel 60. Both filters contain
bio media. Also a UGF powered by 2-300gph hagen powerheads. Fish in
the tank currently are:

3 red zebras
3 cobalt zebras
1 Exasperatus
2 Ahli
1 Ps Mosobo
1 Ps Elongatus Likima Island variety I believe
1 Taiwan Red
1 Bumblebee
1 Aulonocara hansbaenschi
1 Labeotropheus fueleborni male
1 Cyrtocara moorii
1 Haplochromis obliquidens ( I believe as he has a dark red streak
across his back which is a little different than some pics I have
seen)
1 Acei
and one Synodontis catfish of questionable heritage
2 Rainbowfish of which I believe are Melanotaenia trifasciata

My tap water comes out at a pretty consistent 7.0. I do 20-40% water
changes every 1-2 weeks and do not put anything in to raise the pH.

[NetMax]

"Keester" > wrote in message
om...
> Hello Amateur! I posted a list of my fish on your website but here is
> a recap. (btw if you guys havent checks out Amateurs site... go now,
> it is one of the best cichlid sites I have seen)
>
> I have a 90 gallon mixed african setup with about 60-80 pounds of rock
> for structure with a dark colored river pebble substrate. 2 magnum 350
> canister filters with one pushing a bio wheel 60. Both filters contain
> bio media. Also a UGF powered by 2-300gph hagen powerheads. Fish in
> the tank currently are:
>
> 3 red zebras
> 3 cobalt zebras
> 1 Exasperatus
> 2 Ahli
> 1 Ps Mosobo
> 1 Ps Elongatus Likima Island variety I believe
> 1 Taiwan Red
> 1 Bumblebee
> 1 Aulonocara hansbaenschi
> 1 Labeotropheus fueleborni male
> 1 Cyrtocara moorii
> 1 Haplochromis obliquidens ( I believe as he has a dark red streak
> across his back which is a little different than some pics I have
> seen)
> 1 Acei
> and one Synodontis catfish of questionable heritage
> 2 Rainbowfish of which I believe are Melanotaenia trifasciata
>
> My tap water comes out at a pretty consistent 7.0. I do 20-40% water
> changes every 1-2 weeks and do not put anything in to raise the pH.

It's a balance between pH stability & optimization.
a) consider your tap pH, and either select fish to it, or have a water
parameter changing plan (also consider your kH which resists pH changes).
b) how susceptible to pH changes are your fish?
c) do you want them to breed, and is it for entertainment or commerce?
d) consider your water parameter changing scheme.. expense, practicality
etc. The more awkward or expensive, the more likely your tank
maintenance will slip.

In your case, I would have gone with South or Central American cichlids,
as your pH could be left as is, or dropped easily. With Rift lake
cichlids, the easiest thing to do is to replace your substrate with
crushed coral (or other similarly effective calcium leeching mineral),
and switch to a weekly water change (20%). This might not create the
optimal conditions, but will shift them over a bit, with little extra
effort on your part. Your kH and gH are also part of this formula, but
at 7.0pH, I imagine they would benefit from the crushed coral as well
;~).

How much optimization is enough? Research and observe. Some Africans
will not be as particular as others, but it's usually easier to make some
attempt to optimize as much as possible (keeping within a routine which
provides a stable pH). Don't completely trust your ability to detect the
differences when the conditions are not optimal (size, coloration,
vigour, appetite, disposition, spawning readiness etc). Your pH is only
one component of many (diet, territory, water quality, turbulence, social
pairing etc), so getting any one optimized to an extreme is not as good
as optimizing them all to within reasonable parameters which you can
manage, hth, jmo

NetMax