Apple snail population control in Eclipse tank

[Ted Pavlic]

In our 29 gallon tank, we have a freshwater puffer that eats pond
snails too quickly for us to establish a snail population there. Once
upon a time, we placed an Apple snail in the tank, but the puffer ate
pieces of it so slowly that it was too painful to watch.

So, we picked up a 6 gallon Eclipse tank from a friend and are using
it to grow feeder pond snails. To add some color to the tank, we've
added two Apple snails that evidently are male and female. Because the
Eclipse tank has a large lid that closes the tank off, we thought that
the Apple snails wouldn't have enough room to lay eggs out of the
water.

This week, we noticed hundreds of Apple snail babies in the water with
our pond snails, but we had not ever noticed an egg sac. After some
investigation, we found that at night when the light turns off, the
female apple snail has been crawling into the DOME-SHAPED LID and
laying her eggs up ABOVE and BESIDE the light. So, we now have two
large egg sacs that will hatch any day now.

DOES ANYONE have a suggestion about HOW to control the Apple snail
population in this Eclipse tank? The problem is the convex and hollow
lid.

Thoughts? --
Ted

[Ex Pat]

On Jun 4, 9:56*am, Ted Pavlic > wrote:
> In our 29 gallon tank, we have a freshwater puffer that eats pond
> snails too quickly for us to establish a snail population there. Once
> upon a time, we placed an Apple snail in the tank, but the puffer ate
> pieces of it so slowly that it was too painful to watch.
>
> So, we picked up a 6 gallon Eclipse tank from a friend and are using
> it to grow feeder pond snails. To add some color to the tank, we've
> added two Apple snails that evidently are male and female. Because the
> Eclipse tank has a large lid that closes the tank off, we thought that
> the Apple snails wouldn't have enough room to lay eggs out of the
> water.
>
> This week, we noticed hundreds of Apple snail babies in the water with
> our pond snails, but we had not ever noticed an egg sac. After some
> investigation, we found that at night when the light turns off, the
> female apple snail has been crawling into the DOME-SHAPED LID and
> laying her eggs up ABOVE and BESIDE the light. So, we now have two
> large egg sacs that will hatch any day now.
>
> DOES ANYONE have a suggestion about HOW to control the Apple snail
> population in this Eclipse tank? The problem is the convex and hollow
> lid.
>
> Thoughts? --
> Ted

Yep, a freshwater puffer is a misnomer, and they are only freshwater
for a short period of their lives. YOu would be better off and be
better for the puffer as well to acclimate it over a period of time to
sal****er of at least 1.021 SG or better yet 1.023. You can basically
go right past the brackish water stage and go from freshwater to 1.023
in a period of approx 1 month or so. Just add a bit of synthetic
marine salt(not aquarium type salt) each day (about 1 TSP of it)
until the corect SG is achieved. If you have the typical figure 8 or
spotted or leopard or green puffers they do so much better and live so
much longer in sal****er than they do fresh or brackish water. It will
be like a totally different fish. Then you can feed it the proper
foods, and have a piece of liverock in there to help keep its teeth
trimed down. YOu can feed all kinds of marine foods as well. Those
puffers are actually a sal****er species that is sold in the LFS as
freshwater types.

[Ted Pavlic]

> Yep, a freshwater puffer is a misnomer, and they are only freshwater
....
> freshwater types.

Thanks for your response, but my question had nothing whatsoever to do
with the puffer. The puffer is fine in the 29 gallon freshwater tank,
and it has been for years.

My question is about the Apple snails (also known as "(colored)
mystery snails") in my SECOND 6 gallon Eclipse tank that I use for
raising feeder pond snails.

Because the Eclipse tank comes with everything built into the lid, the
lid has a HUGE CONVEX HOLLOW DOME shape that EVIDENTLY is a great
substrate for Apple snail egg sacs.

If the silly Eclipse tank was like my 29 gallon tank, with a flat
cover just above the water's surface, the Apple snail population would
be self controlled because the snails would have no place to attach
the eggs.

I'm looking for suggestions about how to control the Apple snail
population. The pond snails reproduce quickly enough to satisfy my
puffer feeding needs, and so I don't need hundreds of small Apple
snails too.

Thanks --
TEd

[Ted Pavlic]

> much longer in sal****er than they do fresh or brackish water. It will
> be like a totally different fish. Then you can feed it the proper
> foods, and have a piece of liverock in there to help keep its teeth
> trimed down. YOu can feed all kinds of marine foods as well. * Those
> puffers are actually a sal****er species that is sold in the LFS as
> freshwater types.

Also note that we've never had a problem feeding the puffer. It eats
snails, worms, and about everything else that we've heard is normal
for a (freshwater) puffer.

--Ted

[Ex Pat]

On Jun 4, 2:41*pm, Ted Pavlic > wrote:
> > much longer in sal****er than they do fresh or brackish water. It will
> > be like a totally different fish. Then you can feed it the proper
> > foods, and have a piece of liverock in there to help keep its teeth
> > trimed down. YOu can feed all kinds of marine foods as well. * Those
> > puffers are actually a sal****er species that is sold in the LFS as
> > freshwater types.
>
> Also note that we've never had a problem feeding the puffer. It eats
> snails, worms, and about everything else that we've heard is normal
> for a (freshwater) puffer.
>
> --Ted

Well in a way my reply had to do with care and feeding of the puffer
without the need to fiddle with apple snails or any other snail that
can get our of control fairly easily. A few large nassarus snails that
have young in a marine environement would be all that puffer ever
needed...but evidently the "correct and propper" way to care for those
puffers is not a concern of yours.

[Ted Pavlic]

> > Also note that we've never had a problem feeding the puffer. It eats
> > snails, worms, and about everything else that we've heard is normal
> > for a (freshwater) puffer.
>
> Well in a way my reply had to do with care and feeding of *the puffer
> without the need to fiddle with apple snails or any other snail that
> can get our of control fairly easily. A few large nassarus snails that
> have young in a marine environement would be all that puffer ever
> needed...but evidently the "correct and propper" way to care for those
> puffers is not a concern of yours.

I am giving the proper care of that puffer. It is a freshwater puffer.
It isn't a brackish puffer. You're correct that many fish stores
market brackish buffers as freshwater puffers, but this fish *IS* a
FRESHWATER species. I'm sure this puffer would TOLERATE brackish
water, but PROPER care would be to put it in a freshwater environment
(like mine). I'm not having a problem with the puffer. It's a
freshwater puffer, and it's a freshwater tank.

The Apple snails are *NOT* meant to be feeder snails. I *LIKE*
invertebrates. I especially like invertebrates like Apple snails that
have very different characteristics. I CHOSE Apple snails BECAUSE of
their amphibious characteristics -- that was what was going to control
their population. In fact, apple snails are preferred for aquariums
SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE they lay their eggs out of the water -- it makes
it easy to control their population provided that you don't have some
silly Eclipse tank.

I appreciate your help with the puffer. I just don't need it. I'm
looking for some novel advice on what to do with a crappy Eclipse
tank.

Thanks --
Ted

[Ex Pat]

On Jun 4, 3:34*pm, Ted Pavlic > wrote:
snip

. I'm
> looking for some novel advice on what to do with a crappy Eclipse
> tank.
>
> Thanks --
> Ted


Toss it in the freaking trash then! Buy a decent tank they are
cheap.problem solved!

[Ted Pavlic]

> DOES ANYONE have a suggestion about HOW to control the Apple snail
> population in this Eclipse tank? The problem is the convex and hollow
> lid.

FYI, here are two pictures of the female laying an egg sacs on the
inside of the Eclipse lid:

http://phaseportrait.blogspot.com/2008/06/pictures-of-apple-snail-golden-mystery.html

I've never seen a picture of apple snails laying eggs. I've found
plenty of pictures of their egg sacs (and them mating), but I've not
found any of them actually laying the eggs.

Perhaps those pictures will help illustrate the problem. It seems like
we need to modify the lid to prevent access to its internals. I don't
want to throw away the tank -- it was given to us by someone who was
too busy to manage it but didn't want to throw it out. Additionally,
because it's an Eclipse tank, throwing it away means throwing away its
filter, pump, bio-wheel, and light (all incorporated into the lid).

[Reel McKoi[_10_]]

"Ted Pavlic" > wrote in message
...
> FYI, here are two pictures of the female laying an egg sacs on the
> inside of the Eclipse lid:
>
> http://phaseportrait.blogspot.com/2008/06/pictures-of-apple-snail-golden-mystery.html
>
====================
What are you feeding them? Mine never lived more than a week.
--

RM....
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö>

[Ted Pavlic]

> FYI, here are two pictures of the female laying an egg sacs on the
> > inside of the Eclipse lid:
>
> >http://phaseportrait.blogspot.com/2008/06/pictures-of-apple-snail-gol...
>
> ====================
> What are you feeding them? Mine never lived more than a week.

We drop several algae wafers into the tank every other day. Otherwise,
the tank has a few healthy plants (e.g., java ferns) and a small piece
of driftwood draped with java moss. We watch the apple snails crawl
all over these, but I don't think they're eating them. In particular,
we don't notice any holes in the plant leaves. Additionally, we've
watched each of the apple snails *devour* a single algae wafer.

When the snails aren't eating the wafers (or mating or laying eggs),
they crawl all over the tank.

We also use the small tank for feeder pond snails (for a freshwater
puffer in a different tank). So, there are lots of pond snails in the
tank. The apple snails *can* eat dead pond snails, and so that's
another possibility.

It's worth noting that now that we have the population problem, the pH
of the tank is way off. We're working on that. Additionally, because
the Eclipse tank is so small and the light is so warm and directly
over the surface of the water, the tank is usually at the upper end of
the acceptable range for tropical fish. In fact, even at night when
the light is off, the temperature seems to hover around 80 degrees
Fahrenheit. I can think of no reason why these conditions would be
*GOOD* for these snails. In the past, in a larger tank with neutral pH
and comfortable temperature, we had no trouble keeping an apple snail
alive.

[ Additionally, we sprinkle some fish flakes and occasionally some
shrimp pellets, but that's mainly for some freshwater shrimp that are
also in the tank. I can't imagine the snails are eating those. ]

My guess is that the algae thins are the thing that's keeping them
alive now.

--Ted

[Ted Pavlic]

> What are you feeding them? Mine never lived more than a week.

Here's a decent site discussing Apple snail diet (and other
conditions):

http://www.applesnail.net/content/care.php

[Reel McKoi[_10_]]

"Ted Pavlic" > wrote in message
...
>> What are you feeding them? Mine never lived more than a week.
>
> Here's a decent site discussing Apple snail diet (and other
> conditions):
>
> http://www.applesnail.net/content/care.php

Thanks Ted. Going by that they should have lived. I seldom saw the eat
anything and they weren't very active. They ignored algae wafers. I stopped
buying them.
--

RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö>

[Ted Pavlic]

> Thanks Ted. Going by that they should have lived. I seldom saw the eat
> anything and they weren't very active. They ignored algae wafers. *I stopped
> buying them.

Apple snails have the nice feature of being an indicator of certain
water problems. In particular, if they're uncomfortable they'll seal
up inside their shells. They can do this days before the water is too
bad for fish.

So, if you saw them recoil inside their shells very often, maybe there
was something else wrong with tank other than food. <?> Other than
that, maybe it was the fish store (or their source). :(

--Ted

[Ted Pavlic]

> If you find them - remove them right away before they have a chance to
> develop.

The sparse material I've read about apple snail life cycle says that
the snails should take about 2 weeks to hatch. Based on when we got
the two snails and when the first egg sac hatched, that seems about
right.

So, as long as we check every couple of days, it sounds like we'll be
OK...

I like the idea of taking the eggs out manually anyway. I have to
imagine it's less stressful on the female when she can actually lay
the eggs (rather than absorbing them or laying them in the water).

This next part was very helpful:

> You have the stomach for live feeding (you're feeding your puffers
> with pond snails), so I'll tell you what somebody said they did with
> snails on another group.
> They feed birds in their yard. In a shallow dish, they placed a little
> water and the snails. They didn't last long.
> I have never done this before.
> I feed seed. = )

I wish I had read this yesterday -- that's a fantastic idea.

Yesterday, we removed three egg sacs. We put them into a ziplock bag
and smashed them. Luckily, they smashed easily, but we felt pretty bad
about it nonetheless. It's one thing to feed snails to something else.
It's quite another thing to destroy them for no decent reason.

That being said, we really worry about these snails getting out in the
wild. We live by a "lake" (an old rock quarry), and we don't want
these things to have the chance of invading. I suppose as long as we
put these things outside when they're very young, the birds should
digest them easily before they could possibly cause a problem. We
already have a few feeders, so a bowl full of snail eggs will fit
right in.

Thanks for the help! :)

--Ted

[Ted Pavlic]

> snails on another group.

By the way -- what was the other group? I wouldn't mind having another
active aquarium newsgroup to monitor.

Thanks! --
Ted

[Reel McKoi[_10_]]

"Ted Pavlic" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks Ted. Going by that they should have lived. I seldom saw the eat
> anything and they weren't very active. They ignored algae wafers. I
> stopped
> buying them.

Apple snails have the nice feature of being an indicator of certain
water problems. In particular, if they're uncomfortable they'll seal
up inside their shells. They can do this days before the water is too
bad for fish.

So, if you saw them recoil inside their shells very often, maybe there
was something else wrong with tank other than food. <?> Other than
that, maybe it was the fish store (or their source). :(

--Ted
=======================
There were always dead ones on the bottom at the fish store. I know better
than to buy fish or snails when you see something like that, but that was
always the conditions they were under. :( My water is hard and alkaline.
I do water changes pretty much on schedule. They should have done well but
never did. The store no longer carries them due to the high losses.
--

RM....
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö>

[Reel McKoi[_10_]]

"Ted Pavlic" > wrote in message
...
>> snails on another group.
>
> By the way -- what was the other group? I wouldn't mind having another
> active aquarium newsgroup to monitor.
>
> Thanks! --
> Ted
===========================
This was a very active group at one time and I hope it becomes that way
again. I like Usenet and don't enjoy the Forums myself.
--

RM....
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö>