HELP! ..:O Nitrite the lesser of 2 evils?

[Kodiak]

I have a 220 gallon tank with 6 red devils about
4" long each. Unfortunately the tank was new when
I started (Jan 4th) so I used Biozyme to jumpstart the
bio filter. The Ammonia spike was not so bad i never
hit above 2ppm and just for a few days and i did a few
25% water changes just to be safe.

Unfortuanately the Biozyme dosen't seem to be working
on Nitrite as well as it did on the Ammo. I think I'm
between 2 and 3ppm but it could be way more, i can't tell
because that's where my test kit tops out. The fish were
fine untill today so i did a 30% water change today ( last
water change was 3 days ago) and the reading is still the
same, topped out on the Nitrite scale, it's as if I did nothing!

I don't have access to Biospira, but i wonder if it's better than
Biozyme? Has anyone out there tried "Cycle" ?
The fish are now sitting on the bottom of the tank, not moving is that bad?
They are not at the surface gasping for air, is this a good sign?
Am I gonna lose my fish? Is the Nitrite spike just as bad on the fish
as the Ammo spike? Will there be permanant damage or brown blood disease
etc? I have a 0.1% salt solution, and a Huge 6" airstone with a big air
pump,
will this help? I'm gonna do another 30% water tomorrow, is there anything
else i should do?

PS: filtration is 2 Aquaclear 500.

....Kodiak

[Jeff Dantzler]

Kodiak > wrote:
> Biozyme? Has anyone out there tried "Cycle" ?
> The fish are now sitting on the bottom of the tank, not moving is that bad?
> They are not at the surface gasping for air, is this a good sign?
> Am I gonna lose my fish? Is the Nitrite spike just as bad on the fish
> as the Ammo spike? Will there be permanant damage or brown blood disease
> etc? I have a 0.1% salt solution, and a Huge 6" airstone with a big air
> pump,
> will this help? I'm gonna do another 30% water tomorrow, is there anything
> else i should do?

Kodiak, why did you think you could just chuck a bunch of red devils
into a brand new tank? These "Biozyme" or "Biospira" products are just
BS gimmicks designed to take your money. It's a *lot* cheaper to buy
a liter of pure (as in no detergents or fragrances) household cleaning
ammonia and a handfull of gravel or filter media to jumpstart a proper
biofilter. Think about it: the sponges and media in your AC500's were
_barren_ of any bacteria when you threw your livestock in. You diluted
a BS product into 200+ gallons and expected the sponges to be magically
colonized with beneficial bacteria? Much easier to borrow some used
filter media or gravel and place it directly in your filter upstream
of your virgin media.

Look up "fishless cycling" in the archives.

You poisoned your fish! They may or may not recover. What a shame to
do to such an awesome fish as a red devil. I've got a show quality
specimen about 7" long in a 100 gallon tank. I never subjected him
to a toxic cocktail of ammonia and nitrite though. You don't drink out
of those yellow, kiddy wading pools right--why ask your prized fish
to put up with that?

At the very least you should have cycled your tank with some danios
instead of the cichlids you wished to keep. The red devils would have
eaten them eventually.

I admire that you did enough research to put these fish in a large
enough tank. Take my advice and make sure that your new tanks have
zero ammonia and zero nitrite before you add your cichlids in the
future.

Might I also suggest that you read:
http://www.cichlidae.com/articles/a106.html
which will give you some more info on these fish.
as will
http://www.reddevilfish.co.uk/index.htm

If your fish survive and are not too damaged, they may breed
in this tank. You'll need to manage them carefully, or expect a few
of them to meet a violent end.

Sorry if I seem like I'm ranting--but I get real tired of hearing
about people abusing their cichlids by using them to "cycle" their
tank.

You've been around in this group a while. Did you not learn anything
from this thread earlier this month?

"Our Cichlids - their short tragic history"

http://www.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&threadm=Xns
946CF2B49C689rrwi94555%4024.94.170.87&prev=/groups%3Fdq%3D%26num%3D50%26
hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26group%3Drec.aquaria.
freshwater.cichlids%26scoring%3Dd%26start%3D50

Cheers all.

Jeff Dantzler

[Mark Stone]

"Kodiak" > wrote in message >...
> I have a 220 gallon tank with 6 red devils about
> 4" long each. Unfortunately the tank was new when
> I started (Jan 4th) so I used Biozyme to jumpstart the
> bio filter. The Ammonia spike was not so bad i never
> hit above 2ppm and just for a few days and i did a few
> 25% water changes just to be safe.
>
> Unfortuanately the Biozyme dosen't seem to be working
> on Nitrite as well as it did on the Ammo. I think I'm
> between 2 and 3ppm but it could be way more, i can't tell
> because that's where my test kit tops out. The fish were
> fine untill today so i did a 30% water change today ( last
> water change was 3 days ago) and the reading is still the
> same, topped out on the Nitrite scale, it's as if I did nothing!
>
> I don't have access to Biospira, but i wonder if it's better than
> Biozyme? Has anyone out there tried "Cycle" ?
> The fish are now sitting on the bottom of the tank, not moving is that bad?
> They are not at the surface gasping for air, is this a good sign?
> Am I gonna lose my fish? Is the Nitrite spike just as bad on the fish
> as the Ammo spike? Will there be permanant damage or brown blood disease
> etc? I have a 0.1% salt solution, and a Huge 6" airstone with a big air
> pump,
> will this help? I'm gonna do another 30% water tomorrow, is there anything
> else i should do?
>
> PS: filtration is 2 Aquaclear 500.
>
> ...Kodiak


Hi Kodiak -- My advice is simply to allow the aquarium to cycle
without adding anything. It will be happy to do so without the extra
cash disappearing from your wallet!

What I would do right now if I were you is to do a big water change or
a series if daily 50 percenters. Dilute the nitrite immediately so it
is no longer at a toxic level.

Nitrite is the product of the breakdown of Ammonia, so the nitrite
spike following the ammonia spike is normal. Since your RDs are
already beyone juvi stage, there should be no danger to them as the
tank goes through this process: but as the ammonia and the
subsequently the nitrite spike, do some partials. In my experience,
establishing a tank takes about five weeks, dependent upon many
variables.

The most difficult thing about cycling a new aquarium is Aquarist
Stress. Relax! Watch the ammonia and then the nitrite, do partial
water changes before those levels get high enough to stress the RDs,
and you'll be ready to rock.

--Mark

Mark Stone tractorlegs at msn dot kom
OSCAR Lovers! http://www.geocities.com/cichlidiot_2000/oscar.html
LEARN THE CYCLE!! http://www.geocities.com/cichlidiot_2000/cycle.html
The ".Edu" meens i are smart.

[Cichlidiot]

Mark Stone > wrote:

> Nitrite is the product of the breakdown of Ammonia, so the nitrite
> spike following the ammonia spike is normal. Since your RDs are
> already beyone juvi stage, there should be no danger to them as the
> tank goes through this process: but as the ammonia and the
> subsequently the nitrite spike, do some partials. In my experience,
> establishing a tank takes about five weeks, dependent upon many
> variables.

Umm, I'd have to disagree about them not being in danger. Nitrite
poisoning can occur at any age, even though juvenials are more suceptible
to it. The symptoms of lethargy would be consistent with nitrite poisoning
(aka brown blood syndrome or technically, methemoglobinemia). What happens
is the hemoglobin in the blood binds with nitrite (instead of oxygen)
creating methemoglobin, which cannot transport oxygen. Too much
methemoglobin and the fish literally suffocates because it cannot
transport enough oxygen in its blood. The first symptoms are lethargy, at
which point you usually can save most of the fish with some intervention.
If they reach the stage of gasping, they're usually goners unless you can
almost completely remove the nitrite through a 70%+ water change or
removal to a nitrite free tank (which in and of itself could stress the
fish into death, but it worth a shot rather than let them suffocate). Fish
respond individually to treatment of nitrite poisoning as well, depending
on their overall health. So, depending on how far it has progressed, you
may lose a few or save them all, but in any case, I'd do the following
immediately.

There are two main ways to deal with nitrite poisoing, massive water
changes and salt. The water changes have an obvious effect, diluting the
amount of nitrite in the water. If your tap water is close to the tank
water's parameters, change at least 25% if not 50% every day until you
bring the nitrites below 1ppm (I surely hope you have a water changer like
a Python or a really strong back for bucket lugging, heh). The chloride
ions in salt can prevent the uptake of nitrite in the gills, which
prevents it from entering the bloodstream and creating methemoglobin. With
a 220 gallon tank, I'd recommend adding rock salt (rock salt is pure
sodium chloride and easily found at a grocery store for much cheaper than
salt at the fish store. NOTE: You don't want table salt as it contains
additives) at the rate of about a tablespoon to 50 gallons to help ease
the symptoms of nitrite poisoning along with the water changes. This means
add about 5 tablespoons now and then if you change 100 gallons of water,
add another 2 tablespoons. Many recommend dissolving the salt in a cup of
water before adding it, which I would do with curious cichlids (with
smaller fish who couldn't eat the salt, I usually just evenly spread the
salt around the tank, but the one time I tried that with my cichlids, they
kept mouthing the pieces).

[Jim Morcombe]

Cichlidiot > wrote in message
...
> Mark Stone > wrote:
>
> > Nitrite is the product of the breakdown of Ammonia, so the nitrite
> > spike following the ammonia spike is normal. Since your RDs are
> > already beyone juvi stage, there should be no danger to them as the
> > tank goes through this process: but as the ammonia and the
> > subsequently the nitrite spike, do some partials. In my experience,
> > establishing a tank takes about five weeks, dependent upon many
> > variables.
>
> Umm, I'd have to disagree about them not being in danger. Nitrite
> poisoning can occur at any age, even though juvenials are more suceptible
> to it. The symptoms of lethargy would be consistent with nitrite poisoning
> (aka brown blood syndrome or technically, methemoglobinemia). What happens
> is the hemoglobin in the blood binds with nitrite (instead of oxygen)
> creating methemoglobin, which cannot transport oxygen. Too much
> methemoglobin and the fish literally suffocates because it cannot
> transport enough oxygen in its blood. The first symptoms are lethargy, at
> which point you usually can save most of the fish with some intervention.
> If they reach the stage of gasping, they're usually goners unless you can
> almost completely remove the nitrite through a 70%+ water change or
> removal to a nitrite free tank (which in and of itself could stress the
> fish into death, but it worth a shot rather than let them suffocate). Fish
> respond individually to treatment of nitrite poisoning as well, depending
> on their overall health. So, depending on how far it has progressed, you
> may lose a few or save them all, but in any case, I'd do the following
> immediately.
>
> There are two main ways to deal with nitrite poisoing, massive water
> changes and salt. The water changes have an obvious effect, diluting the
> amount of nitrite in the water. If your tap water is close to the tank
> water's parameters, change at least 25% if not 50% every day until you
> bring the nitrites below 1ppm (I surely hope you have a water changer like
> a Python or a really strong back for bucket lugging, heh). The chloride
> ions in salt can prevent the uptake of nitrite in the gills, which
> prevents it from entering the bloodstream and creating methemoglobin. With
> a 220 gallon tank, I'd recommend adding rock salt (rock salt is pure
> sodium chloride and easily found at a grocery store for much cheaper than
> salt at the fish store. NOTE: You don't want table salt as it contains
> additives) at the rate of about a tablespoon to 50 gallons to help ease
> the symptoms of nitrite poisoning along with the water changes. This means
> add about 5 tablespoons now and then if you change 100 gallons of water,
> add another 2 tablespoons. Many recommend dissolving the salt in a cup of
> water before adding it, which I would do with curious cichlids (with
> smaller fish who couldn't eat the salt, I usually just evenly spread the
> salt around the tank, but the one time I tried that with my cichlids, they
> kept mouthing the pieces).
>

Sounds like good advice to me.

I know nothing about Red Devils, but...

After a couple of days of 50% water changes, the fish will appear to be good
and healthy. You may be tempted to cut back on the water changes.

However, they won't have fully recovered from their ordeal. The Nitrites
will build up again and the fish will not give you as much warning as
before. The first thing you notice will be dead fish.

You must keep up the water changes until the tank has cycled completely.
And then you should still do twice weekly changes for a while.

Good luck.

Jim

[Mark Stone]

Cichlidiot > wrote in message >...
>
> Umm, I'd have to disagree about them not being in danger.

I may have mis-typed: I meant that they would be in no danger during a
normal cycling process with the requisite water changes. I wasn't
referring to these particular RDs that are already in trouble. Sorry
about the misunderstanding--

--Mark

[Kodiak]

OK Jeff,
I apologize again and again, and i already felt really really bad
before you even wrote this. And thank you for crushing whats left
of me.

I think I need to put things in perspective here. First of all i didn't do
research on these fish to put them in a large enough tank. I bought the
tank (220gallon) because i intended on getting more goldfish which in
the end, i didn't do. I did do a a full day of research at the redevilfish
site
you mention below and a few more before I bought the fish, so it wasn't an
impulsive thing. It's my first time keeping Cichlids, and contrary to what
you
said, i've only been on this newsgroup for 2 weeks not months, and i missed
the thread you mentioned so gimme a break ok?

These Red Devils all six of them were at the LFS in a 40 gallon tank with
15 blood parrots. I got all six of them for 30$CDN, and i felt like i would
be
saving them in my big 220gallon tank. I had no idea that these BS products
don't work, I paid alot for that stuff, and I injected it straight into the
filter
intake the recommended amount for 220gallon on two seperate occasions.
This so it wouldn't get diluted as you say. I told the guy at the LFS that
my tank
wasn't cycled yet and i wanted to take the fish only a few at a time till it
cycled,
but he said he wouldn't keep them for longer than a few days, and then he
assured
me that the Biozyme would work fine, and that the water changes would be
alright
and also that these fish were very tough in compromised water conditions and
especially
for the extra large tank, they would not suffer. So yes, i did expect
magical things,
gross mistake on my part.

I was gonna jump start the filter with my Goldfish filter sponge, but i was
afraid these fish
might be sensitive to Goldfish Parasites, so i opted to go the BS route. How
was I suppose to
know it wouldn't work?

Anyhow, turns out it may not be so bad, my nitrite kit tops out at 3ppm
(really sensitive), and
it seems the tester was a shade under that last night so i estimate Nitrite
to be 2-3ppm.
After the 25% water the fish reacted very positively and were all swimming
around this morning,
and eating fine. I will stop the feeding for a few days as Cichlidiot
recommended. I liked his post
alot better, he seemed more sympathetic to my cause.

I'm doing a 50% water right now. They are swimming around and seem very
happy again.
The water is aged with an airstone in big 55 gallon plastic vats
for 24 hours, and preheated to the tank temperature 78degF. Then I treat it
with a good shot of
dechlorinator anyhow and add de-stressing liquid for the fish. If they get
violent with each other
in the future I also have a 90 gallon on stanby and two more Qtine 55 gallon
Vats with filtration.

You see, i care for my fish. Do I get your pardon or you still ****ed at me?

....Kodiak


"Jeff Dantzler" > wrote in message
news:1075219606.716354@yasure...
> Kodiak > wrote:
> > Biozyme? Has anyone out there tried "Cycle" ?
> > The fish are now sitting on the bottom of the tank, not moving is that
bad?
> > They are not at the surface gasping for air, is this a good sign?
> > Am I gonna lose my fish? Is the Nitrite spike just as bad on the fish
> > as the Ammo spike? Will there be permanant damage or brown blood disease
> > etc? I have a 0.1% salt solution, and a Huge 6" airstone with a big air
> > pump,
> > will this help? I'm gonna do another 30% water tomorrow, is there
anything
> > else i should do?
>
> Kodiak, why did you think you could just chuck a bunch of red devils
> into a brand new tank? These "Biozyme" or "Biospira" products are just
> BS gimmicks designed to take your money. It's a *lot* cheaper to buy
> a liter of pure (as in no detergents or fragrances) household cleaning
> ammonia and a handfull of gravel or filter media to jumpstart a proper
> biofilter. Think about it: the sponges and media in your AC500's were
> _barren_ of any bacteria when you threw your livestock in. You diluted
> a BS product into 200+ gallons and expected the sponges to be magically
> colonized with beneficial bacteria? Much easier to borrow some used
> filter media or gravel and place it directly in your filter upstream
> of your virgin media.
>
> Look up "fishless cycling" in the archives.
>
> You poisoned your fish! They may or may not recover. What a shame to
> do to such an awesome fish as a red devil. I've got a show quality
> specimen about 7" long in a 100 gallon tank. I never subjected him
> to a toxic cocktail of ammonia and nitrite though. You don't drink out
> of those yellow, kiddy wading pools right--why ask your prized fish
> to put up with that?
>
> At the very least you should have cycled your tank with some danios
> instead of the cichlids you wished to keep. The red devils would have
> eaten them eventually.
>
> I admire that you did enough research to put these fish in a large
> enough tank. Take my advice and make sure that your new tanks have
> zero ammonia and zero nitrite before you add your cichlids in the
> future.
>
> Might I also suggest that you read:
> http://www.cichlidae.com/articles/a106.html
> which will give you some more info on these fish.
> as will
> http://www.reddevilfish.co.uk/index.htm
>
> If your fish survive and are not too damaged, they may breed
> in this tank. You'll need to manage them carefully, or expect a few
> of them to meet a violent end.
>
> Sorry if I seem like I'm ranting--but I get real tired of hearing
> about people abusing their cichlids by using them to "cycle" their
> tank.
>
> You've been around in this group a while. Did you not learn anything
> from this thread earlier this month?
>
> "Our Cichlids - their short tragic history"
>
> http://www.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&threadm=Xns
> 946CF2B49C689rrwi94555%4024.94.170.87&prev=/groups%3Fdq%3D%26num%3D50%26
> hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26group%3Drec.aquaria.
> freshwater.cichlids%26scoring%3Dd%26start%3D50
>
> Cheers all.
>
> Jeff Dantzler

[Kodiak]

Thank you for your post Mark.
Thanks for all the info Cichlidiot...

They were just a bit lethargic last night for a few hours,
before I did the 25% water. They never got
close to the gasping stage. Anyhow, turns out it may not
be so bad, my nitrite kit tops out at 3ppm (really sensitive), and
it seems the tester was a shade under that last night so i estimate Nitrite
to be 2-3ppm. After the 25% water the fish reacted very positively
and were all swimming around this morning and evening
and eating fine. I will stop the feeding for a few days as you mention.
I just finished the 50% water this evening, they are now moving around
even more.

I'm using pickling salt (pure 100% salt no additives).
However I'm wondering about the dosage you recommend.
1 tablespoon per 50 gallons is 0.01%, isn't that too low?
I'm at the 1 tablespoon per 5gallons or 0.1% (10x the amount you recommend)
is that way over the limit? I read somewhere on the web that was fine for
RD's,
Goldfish can handle up to 0.3% with no issues, but i realized these fish
have
different needs. Anyhow with this latest 50% I'm at 0.05% (1
tablespoon/10gal) right now,
so I will leave it there until i hear from you again.

Seperate question;
What do you think of water softening salt like;
Swifto Brand "Crystal Plus" water softener salt
20KG bag (44lbs) for $3.50
Improved Resin Clean Formula
Inhibits Rust buildup and stains
99.8% Pure Evaporated Salt
Compacted for Maximum hardness
High Purity Brine reduces maintenance

Even though it's 99.8% pure, i'm not sure I should use it,
what do you think? My LFS uses something like that
for years and he swears by it.

....Kodiak

"Cichlidiot" > wrote in message
...
> Mark Stone > wrote:
>
> > Nitrite is the product of the breakdown of Ammonia, so the nitrite
> > spike following the ammonia spike is normal. Since your RDs are
> > already beyone juvi stage, there should be no danger to them as the
> > tank goes through this process: but as the ammonia and the
> > subsequently the nitrite spike, do some partials. In my experience,
> > establishing a tank takes about five weeks, dependent upon many
> > variables.
>
> Umm, I'd have to disagree about them not being in danger. Nitrite
> poisoning can occur at any age, even though juvenials are more suceptible
> to it. The symptoms of lethargy would be consistent with nitrite poisoning
> (aka brown blood syndrome or technically, methemoglobinemia). What happens
> is the hemoglobin in the blood binds with nitrite (instead of oxygen)
> creating methemoglobin, which cannot transport oxygen. Too much
> methemoglobin and the fish literally suffocates because it cannot
> transport enough oxygen in its blood. The first symptoms are lethargy, at
> which point you usually can save most of the fish with some intervention.
> If they reach the stage of gasping, they're usually goners unless you can
> almost completely remove the nitrite through a 70%+ water change or
> removal to a nitrite free tank (which in and of itself could stress the
> fish into death, but it worth a shot rather than let them suffocate). Fish
> respond individually to treatment of nitrite poisoning as well, depending
> on their overall health. So, depending on how far it has progressed, you
> may lose a few or save them all, but in any case, I'd do the following
> immediately.
>
> There are two main ways to deal with nitrite poisoing, massive water
> changes and salt. The water changes have an obvious effect, diluting the
> amount of nitrite in the water. If your tap water is close to the tank
> water's parameters, change at least 25% if not 50% every day until you
> bring the nitrites below 1ppm (I surely hope you have a water changer like
> a Python or a really strong back for bucket lugging, heh). The chloride
> ions in salt can prevent the uptake of nitrite in the gills, which
> prevents it from entering the bloodstream and creating methemoglobin. With

> a 220 gallon tank, I'd recommend adding rock salt (rock salt is pure
> sodium chloride and easily found at a grocery store for much cheaper than
> salt at the fish store. NOTE: You don't want table salt as it contains
> additives) at the rate of about a tablespoon to 50 gallons to help ease
> the symptoms of nitrite poisoning along with the water changes. This means
> add about 5 tablespoons now and then if you change 100 gallons of water,
> add another 2 tablespoons. Many recommend dissolving the salt in a cup of
> water before adding it, which I would do with curious cichlids (with
> smaller fish who couldn't eat the salt, I usually just evenly spread the
> salt around the tank, but the one time I tried that with my cichlids, they
> kept mouthing the pieces).
>

[Jeff Dantzler]

Kodiak > wrote:

[snip]

Kodiak--Sorry--I wasn't trying to make you feel bad and didn't
realize you have only been reading this group for a couple of
weeks.

You've gotten some good advice from other posters. I learned a few
things from Cichlidiot's post for sure.

I am glad that you are actively seeking to learn more about how to
keep your cichlids happy and I should have given you credit for that.

Red Devils are remarkably resilient fish and will probably pull
through fine if they are looking better now and you keep up with
frequent water changes. Their toughness is about all I can credit
the salesperson with getting right. The rest was the _sales_
aspect of their job.

Jumpstarting your filter with the goldfish sponge was a good idea.
Don't worry about parasites unless you know for sure that your
goldfish are sick. In fact, don't worry about any diseases unless
you have good evidence that they are present. The best thing you
can do is keep good water conditions. This gives the fish their
best shot at fending off diseases the old-fashioned way. Here is
the best disease site I have found:

http://world.std.com/~enjolras/symtreat.htm

I don't know what your tapwater is like. Unless it is nasty
(water company adds chloramine for example) don't worry about
the changewater so much. If the water is decent, just add it
straight into the tank (use a python), squirt in some "tap water
conditioner", and try to get the temperature close using the
test-it-with-your-hand method. Red devils tolerate this sort of
treatment well because they evolved in an environment subject to
less-than-consistent water parameters unlike African Rift Lake
cichlids. You can skip the destressing stuff as they are *really*
stoked to have a 220 all to themselves.

As they grow, they will become less tolerant of each other even in
a big tank. This may take a year or so. When they start getting
horny, most likely all hell will break loose in your tank. I would
advise adding lots of hiding places now. Clay pots and bits of black,
ABS plumbing pipe (the stuff for plumbing drains, waste pipes,
& vents), or anything else they can get a moments peace in are
good stress-reducers.

Another stress reliever would be some other fish that you don't get
too attached to. A school (8-20) of giant danios or other resonably
large, fast, agile fish would give your devils something to direct
their attention to. They may disappear mysteriously over time though :)

Expect them to move gravel around. They will alter the tank to suit
themselves--so don't fall in love with any particular arrangement.

Over time, they will develop personality.

Here is a short video of feeding time. The other cichlids visible
are Neets (Neetroplus nematopus).

http://www.drizzle.com/~dantzler/movies/Hungry.AVI

No hard feelings, eh? Hope you tank turns out great.

Jeff Dantzler
dantzler at d r i z z l e . c o m
Seattle, WA

[Cichlidiot]

Kodiak > wrote:
> Thank you for your post Mark.
> Thanks for all the info Cichlidiot...

> They were just a bit lethargic last night for a few hours,
> before I did the 25% water. They never got
> close to the gasping stage. Anyhow, turns out it may not
> be so bad, my nitrite kit tops out at 3ppm (really sensitive), and
> it seems the tester was a shade under that last night so i estimate Nitrite
> to be 2-3ppm. After the 25% water the fish reacted very positively
> and were all swimming around this morning and evening
> and eating fine. I will stop the feeding for a few days as you mention.
> I just finished the 50% water this evening, they are now moving around
> even more.

This sounds good. They probably were suffering a bit from nitrite
poisoning and the lessening concentrations are helping. Try to keep at the
water changes until you get it below 1ppm though (or at least below 2ppm
if you can't get it any lower).

> I'm using pickling salt (pure 100% salt no additives).
> However I'm wondering about the dosage you recommend.
> 1 tablespoon per 50 gallons is 0.01%, isn't that too low?
> I'm at the 1 tablespoon per 5gallons or 0.1% (10x the amount you recommend)
> is that way over the limit? I read somewhere on the web that was fine for
> RD's,
> Goldfish can handle up to 0.3% with no issues, but i realized these fish
> have
> different needs. Anyhow with this latest 50% I'm at 0.05% (1
> tablespoon/10gal) right now,
> so I will leave it there until i hear from you again.

Well, I base this off some research I did which said the concentration of
chloride ions needed for helping nitrite poisoning is very low, in the
parts per million range. Since I usually have all my tanks planted, I try
to avoid adding too much salt and this dosage (well, actually closer to a
tablespoon in 40gal tank, since that was the one with the issue) helped
with my last case of nitrite poisoning. You can certainly add much more
safely if you're concerned and you have no plants. Just that you don't
always need quite so much salt as many webpages recommend to get a
beneficial effect for nitrite poisoning, heh. Many of those pages are
geared towards preventing paracites/disease like ich, so have a much
higher concentration of salt as a consequence.

While I'm thinking of my last case of nitrite poisoning, here's a
correlary piece of advice, consider it a cautionary tale. If you plan to
do any sort of vacation/travelling in the future, start to look for
someone now who is tank saavy, even if it means hiring a professional, to
keep an eye on your tank(s) while you are gone, particularly with a large
one like this tank. Don't rely on friends or family who don't know about
fish. I did and it was a complete disaster. I went to a conference (3 day
trip) and left my roommate to watch over the tanks (then just the 40g and
6g). Not only did she leave the AC off in 100+F weather (killing the whole
40g, 6g was just a betta so he survived the low water O2), she didn't
notice that the 40g filter intake was clogged up from the dead fish and
not flowing. So I lost the whole tank stock AND most of the bacteria
colony. I thought I had gotten it recycled fishlessly, but apparently only
got the ammonia colonies reseeded completely because I got a nitrite spike
(a bit over 1ppm) when I added 4 juvie calvus. Lost one in the process to
nitrite poisoning (they were in somewhat poor shape when I got them at
auction to begin with), but the rest recovered after a 50% water change
and some salt. But this was also a filter reseeding effort, so the nitrite
spike only lasted about a day since I already had some bacterial colonies,
just apparently not enough to handle the calvus. So moral of the story is:
roommates are evil, heh, and don't trust your tanks to novices. I've found
a professional pet sitter now who is a marine tank keeper. Worth the $20 a
day for her to visit to be sure I don't lose $200+ in stock.

> Seperate question;
> What do you think of water softening salt like;
> Swifto Brand "Crystal Plus" water softener salt
> 20KG bag (44lbs) for $3.50
> Improved Resin Clean Formula
> Inhibits Rust buildup and stains
> 99.8% Pure Evaporated Salt
> Compacted for Maximum hardness
> High Purity Brine reduces maintenance

> Even though it's 99.8% pure, i'm not sure I should use it,
> what do you think? My LFS uses something like that
> for years and he swears by it.

I'm not really familiar with the contents of water softening salt, so I
can't really say for sure if it would be safe or not. Probably wouldn't be
toxic or we'd be hearing a lot about deaths from people who fill the tank
from a tap that is on a water softener. I just don't have any use for that
much salt, so never looked into it. My 2lb box of rock salt from the
grocery store has lasted me over 2 years now, even using it for the brine
shrimp hatches, but I only have small tanks (40g, 29g, 10g, 6g) due to the
restrictions on tank sizes at my apartment complex.

[Kodiak]

Thanks for all the info, I have a freind who is a meticoulous
horticulturist.
I've gotton him to take care of my fish in the past. You scare me with the
AC thing though. I don't have AC. I live in Canada so it seldom gets above
90degF here but last summer my fishes were suffering for a few days.
I kept things in check by dropping alot of ice in the tank. That seemed to
help.

The fish got a bit lethargic again tonight, Nitrite hit 2-3ppm again, so i
did
another 50% water with a nice dose of dechlorinator. They are swimming
about again, but rechecking the nitrite levels after the 50%, don't seem to
go down. I had enough of this so i finally snapped tonight and took a media
bag of Lava rock out of my Goldfish tank and swapped it with the RD's.
Not sure i did the right thing with intermixing parasites, but my goldies
are
really healthy and I've had them for quite some time. There are no symptioms
of
any parasites on them, but i guess that would be hard to tell. Still i'd
rather have
no more nitrite in the tank, so I' took the shot. They seem very happy right
now,
I'll see how it goes tomorrow. Still ****ed about the Biostuff i bought,
what a waste
of money, and worries.

Again thankds for shareing your Nitrite spike and other experiences.

-
....Kodiak
"Cichlidiot" > wrote in message
...
> Kodiak > wrote:
> > Thank you for your post Mark.
> > Thanks for all the info Cichlidiot...
>
> > They were just a bit lethargic last night for a few hours,
> > before I did the 25% water. They never got
> > close to the gasping stage. Anyhow, turns out it may not
> > be so bad, my nitrite kit tops out at 3ppm (really sensitive), and
> > it seems the tester was a shade under that last night so i estimate
Nitrite
> > to be 2-3ppm. After the 25% water the fish reacted very positively
> > and were all swimming around this morning and evening
> > and eating fine. I will stop the feeding for a few days as you mention.
> > I just finished the 50% water this evening, they are now moving around
> > even more.
>
> This sounds good. They probably were suffering a bit from nitrite
> poisoning and the lessening concentrations are helping. Try to keep at the
> water changes until you get it below 1ppm though (or at least below 2ppm
> if you can't get it any lower).
>
> > I'm using pickling salt (pure 100% salt no additives).
> > However I'm wondering about the dosage you recommend.
> > 1 tablespoon per 50 gallons is 0.01%, isn't that too low?
> > I'm at the 1 tablespoon per 5gallons or 0.1% (10x the amount you
recommend)
> > is that way over the limit? I read somewhere on the web that was fine
for
> > RD's,
> > Goldfish can handle up to 0.3% with no issues, but i realized these fish
> > have
> > different needs. Anyhow with this latest 50% I'm at 0.05% (1
> > tablespoon/10gal) right now,
> > so I will leave it there until i hear from you again.
>
> Well, I base this off some research I did which said the concentration of
> chloride ions needed for helping nitrite poisoning is very low, in the
> parts per million range. Since I usually have all my tanks planted, I try
> to avoid adding too much salt and this dosage (well, actually closer to a
> tablespoon in 40gal tank, since that was the one with the issue) helped
> with my last case of nitrite poisoning. You can certainly add much more
> safely if you're concerned and you have no plants. Just that you don't
> always need quite so much salt as many webpages recommend to get a
> beneficial effect for nitrite poisoning, heh. Many of those pages are
> geared towards preventing paracites/disease like ich, so have a much
> higher concentration of salt as a consequence.
>
> While I'm thinking of my last case of nitrite poisoning, here's a
> correlary piece of advice, consider it a cautionary tale. If you plan to
> do any sort of vacation/travelling in the future, start to look for
> someone now who is tank saavy, even if it means hiring a professional, to
> keep an eye on your tank(s) while you are gone, particularly with a large
> one like this tank. Don't rely on friends or family who don't know about
> fish. I did and it was a complete disaster. I went to a conference (3 day
> trip) and left my roommate to watch over the tanks (then just the 40g and
> 6g). Not only did she leave the AC off in 100+F weather (killing the whole
> 40g, 6g was just a betta so he survived the low water O2), she didn't
> notice that the 40g filter intake was clogged up from the dead fish and
> not flowing. So I lost the whole tank stock AND most of the bacteria
> colony. I thought I had gotten it recycled fishlessly, but apparently only
> got the ammonia colonies reseeded completely because I got a nitrite spike
> (a bit over 1ppm) when I added 4 juvie calvus. Lost one in the process to
> nitrite poisoning (they were in somewhat poor shape when I got them at
> auction to begin with), but the rest recovered after a 50% water change
> and some salt. But this was also a filter reseeding effort, so the nitrite
> spike only lasted about a day since I already had some bacterial colonies,
> just apparently not enough to handle the calvus. So moral of the story is:
> roommates are evil, heh, and don't trust your tanks to novices. I've found
> a professional pet sitter now who is a marine tank keeper. Worth the $20 a
> day for her to visit to be sure I don't lose $200+ in stock.
>
> > Seperate question;
> > What do you think of water softening salt like;
> > Swifto Brand "Crystal Plus" water softener salt
> > 20KG bag (44lbs) for $3.50
> > Improved Resin Clean Formula
> > Inhibits Rust buildup and stains
> > 99.8% Pure Evaporated Salt
> > Compacted for Maximum hardness
> > High Purity Brine reduces maintenance
>
> > Even though it's 99.8% pure, i'm not sure I should use it,
> > what do you think? My LFS uses something like that
> > for years and he swears by it.
>
> I'm not really familiar with the contents of water softening salt, so I
> can't really say for sure if it would be safe or not. Probably wouldn't be
> toxic or we'd be hearing a lot about deaths from people who fill the tank
> from a tap that is on a water softener. I just don't have any use for that
> much salt, so never looked into it. My 2lb box of rock salt from the
> grocery store has lasted me over 2 years now, even using it for the brine
> shrimp hatches, but I only have small tanks (40g, 29g, 10g, 6g) due to the
> restrictions on tank sizes at my apartment complex.