rift lake buffer

[battlelance]

Ok, two questions for ya'll today:

I found a recpie for rift lake buffer (the usual salt, epsom salt and
baking soda), and calculated out how much I'd need per 5 gallons and
worked it out into a number of doses for my 80gal tank.

So, my questions are:

1) I'm currently suffering from a freaking alge bloom that won't end.
I've turned off lights, and everything, but the water just stays super
green. If I start adding baking soda, won't this just feed the alge?
Suggestions?

2) I know rapidly raising Ph isn't the best thing to do, but what is
an acceptable rate? 0.5 every 24hrs? Does the same hold true for kh
and gh - or can those be raised rapidly (I need to go from about 60 to
160 ppm gh) without harming the fish?

TIA!

[Bob]

"battlelance" > wrote in message
...
> green. If I start adding baking soda, won't this just feed the alge?
> Suggestions?


No, algae live mostly on phosphoros and nitrogen compounds I believe.
whatever the case, I do not believe they ingest sodium bicarbonate



>
> 2) I know rapidly raising Ph isn't the best thing to do, but what is
> an acceptable rate? 0.5 every 24hrs? Does the same hold true for kh
> and gh - or can those be raised rapidly (I need to go from about 60 to
> 160 ppm gh) without harming the fish?


I think the ph change you suggest is too high. Most people stick by the
rule of no more than .2 change per 24 hours.

The osmiotic pressure will change with the hardness, and should not be
changed any more rapidly than than the ph, so I would go with maybe 20-35
ppm per 24 hrs (about 1-2 dh)

Personally, to minimize testing and the cost of my time, I would not worry
about the hardness untill I got the ph where I wanted it. Since there is
some relation between the two, you will find that your hardness should be
pretty close once you get the desired ph, especially since you are using
rift lake type salt mix. Take your time in changing your ph / osmiotic
pressure that much...it can be very stressful with the fish

Bob

[Cichlidiot]

Bob > wrote:

>> 2) I know rapidly raising Ph isn't the best thing to do, but what is
>> an acceptable rate? 0.5 every 24hrs? Does the same hold true for kh
>> and gh - or can those be raised rapidly (I need to go from about 60 to
>> 160 ppm gh) without harming the fish?

> I think the ph change you suggest is too high. Most people stick by the
> rule of no more than .2 change per 24 hours.

> The osmiotic pressure will change with the hardness, and should not be
> changed any more rapidly than than the ph, so I would go with maybe 20-35
> ppm per 24 hrs (about 1-2 dh)

> Personally, to minimize testing and the cost of my time, I would not worry
> about the hardness untill I got the ph where I wanted it. Since there is
> some relation between the two, you will find that your hardness should be
> pretty close once you get the desired ph, especially since you are using
> rift lake type salt mix. Take your time in changing your ph / osmiotic
> pressure that much...it can be very stressful with the fish

Not to nitpick, but pH is not directly related to GH. It is related to KH
though. Remember there are two types of hardness, so be specific when
referring to hardness. Also, if we're talking just purely baking soda, it
will raise KH (and usually pH, but only to a point) but not GH. The reason
the rift salt mixes usually raise all three (pH, KH, GH) is their
combinations of carbonate and/or bicarbonate compounds with calcium and
magnesium compounds. I personally prefer crushed coral substrate to
maintain the GH/KH/pH in my rift tanks, but my tap water starts out fairly
high in KH and pH, moderate in GH.

To the original poster, as for the algae problem, you should probably try
to diagnosis the cause of that first as green water can be problematic on
more than just the visual level. Perhaps your source water contains a lot
of fertilizer compounds. You should test it for at least nitrates. Also
see if you can get the water quality report if you're using tap water. In
the USA, the water district is required to give you one and may even have
it up on a website. This will tell you the average water parameters for
the tap water. I have some green algae problems (mostly on the glass or
string algae though, rarely a water column bloom) because I live in an
area surrounded by a lot of agriculture and the tap water has a lot of
nitrates. Water changes in the case where the tap water is supplying the
nutrients only helps replenish the source of food. If the water is
suspect, you might want to switch to bottled or RO filtered (with salt mix
added) water at least until the algae is under control. I use a lot of
java fern and crypts to sop up nutrients from the tap water in my tank,
but I always start the tanks planted so I don't get the water column
bloom. As for the light levels, if there is direct sunlight or strong room
light that could be giving the tank too much light even without the tank
lights on.

[Kodiak]

Can you post this recipe? (rift lake buffer the usual salt, epsom salt and
baking soda)
....Kodiak

"battlelance" > wrote in message
...
> Ok, two questions for ya'll today:
>
> I found a recpie for rift lake buffer (the usual salt, epsom salt and
> baking soda), and calculated out how much I'd need per 5 gallons and
> worked it out into a number of doses for my 80gal tank.
>
> So, my questions are:
>
> 1) I'm currently suffering from a freaking alge bloom that won't end.
> I've turned off lights, and everything, but the water just stays super
> green. If I start adding baking soda, won't this just feed the alge?
> Suggestions?
>
> 2) I know rapidly raising Ph isn't the best thing to do, but what is
> an acceptable rate? 0.5 every 24hrs? Does the same hold true for kh
> and gh - or can those be raised rapidly (I need to go from about 60 to
> 160 ppm gh) without harming the fish?
>
> TIA!

[battlelance]

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 01:59:50 +0000 (UTC), Cichlidiot
> wrote:

>magnesium compounds. I personally prefer crushed coral substrate to
>maintain the GH/KH/pH in my rift tanks, but my tap water starts out fairly
>high in KH and pH, moderate in GH.

See my tap water is about 20 ppm KH and 40 ppm GH. From what I
understand that's way too low (I was thinking around 150 ppm KH/GH).
Having said that, would dropping some crushed coral on the sand
substrate cause any problems with the cichlids (they pick the sand up
and dig and whatnot)?

I'm just not sure how sharp the stuff is really. I was going to use
some crushed sea shells (since I live an hour away from the ocean,
they are easy to get), but someone suggested I avoid it as it may
damage the mouths of my cichlids.

>To the original poster, as for the algae problem, you should probably try
>to diagnosis the cause of that first as green water can be problematic on
>more than just the visual level. Perhaps your source water contains a lot
>of fertilizer compounds. You should test it for at least nitrates.

I've been looking through my municipalities water quality report, and
here is what they specify:

Nitrate mg/L <0.05
Nitrite mg/L <0.05

They also show this:

Nitrate / Nitrite mg/L 0.05 (?? not sure what this is)

(among other things.. there's uranium in my water, how interesting)

In any case, thanks very much for the tips. I'll keep trying some
different things and see if I can get this alge under control.

[Happy'Cam'per]

Hello again BattleLance!

I say go down to the beach on the weekend, hell, what a pleasure, make a day
of it! I live about 600km away from the nearest beach ;(

The substrate for my Malawi tank consists mostly of small sea shells, beach
sand and about 2kgs of crushed Coral. I have had this setup for 2 years now
with no worries. The fish do their usual sand sifting (they love the beach
sand) and never have I seen a mouth wound. Also I have never seen any
compacting of the sand as many ppl say will happen. Give it a bash, it looks
very natural and is pleasing to the eye and more importantly I think it
suites the wee fishies just fine! Just be sure to rinse the sand and shells
VERY well, possibly let it soak for a few days. G'Luck.
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**



"battlelance" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 01:59:50 +0000 (UTC), Cichlidiot
> > wrote:
>
> >magnesium compounds. I personally prefer crushed coral substrate to
> >maintain the GH/KH/pH in my rift tanks, but my tap water starts out
fairly
> >high in KH and pH, moderate in GH.
>
> See my tap water is about 20 ppm KH and 40 ppm GH. From what I
> understand that's way too low (I was thinking around 150 ppm KH/GH).
> Having said that, would dropping some crushed coral on the sand
> substrate cause any problems with the cichlids (they pick the sand up
> and dig and whatnot)?
>
> I'm just not sure how sharp the stuff is really. I was going to use
> some crushed sea shells (since I live an hour away from the ocean,
> they are easy to get), but someone suggested I avoid it as it may
> damage the mouths of my cichlids.
>
> >To the original poster, as for the algae problem, you should probably try
> >to diagnosis the cause of that first as green water can be problematic on
> >more than just the visual level. Perhaps your source water contains a lot
> >of fertilizer compounds. You should test it for at least nitrates.
>
> I've been looking through my municipalities water quality report, and
> here is what they specify:
>
> Nitrate mg/L <0.05
> Nitrite mg/L <0.05
>
> They also show this:
>
> Nitrate / Nitrite mg/L 0.05 (?? not sure what this is)
>
> (among other things.. there's uranium in my water, how interesting)
>
> In any case, thanks very much for the tips. I'll keep trying some
> different things and see if I can get this alge under control.
>
>
>

[Jeff Dantzler]

Kodiak > wrote:
> Can you post this recipe? (rift lake buffer the usual salt, epsom salt and
> baking soda)
> ...Kodiak

Here's a repost of a recipe I have...

Here's my recipe for Tanganyika water:

FYI, my tapwater is soft. TDS ~ 40 mg/L. KH & GH are both less than 2
degrees. Therefore this is about as "from scratch" as it gets. Adjust
amounts down according to your GH & KH. Also mg/L is same as ppm.

MgCl-6H2O 0.2 g/L
NaHCO3 0.25 g/L (baking soda)
KHCO3 0.125 g/L
CaSO4-2H2O 0.035 g/L (gypsom)

This adds 8 mg/L Ca++, 69 mg/L Na+, 24 mg/L Mg++, 34 mg/L K+, 258 mg/L
HCO3-, 70 mg/L Cl-, & 20 mg/L SO4-.

Notice there is NO NaCl added! the counterions from the above four salts
give [Na+] = 69 mg/L and [Cl-] = 70 mg/L. Natural levels in Lake
Tanganyika are 66 and 21 respectively so I already have MORE NaCl than is
naturally found in the lake.

This gives me a pH of 8 and TDS around 500-550 mg/L

The water is clearly good for the pair of Neolamprologus brichardi in the
tank as they have cranked out over 500 fry in the couple years the tank
has been up and there has never been any disease. [NO3] < 10 mg/L from
weekly 50% water changes.

Jeff Dantzler
Seattle, WA

[battlelance]

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 15:57:21 +0200, "Happy'Cam'per" > wrote:

>Hello again BattleLance!
>
>I say go down to the beach on the weekend, hell, what a pleasure, make a day
>of it! I live about 600km away from the nearest beach ;(

Err, I'm in Canada, and it's the middle of winter, so the beach would
be completely blocked with ice :)

>The substrate for my Malawi tank consists mostly of small sea shells, beach
>sand and about 2kgs of crushed Coral. I have had this setup for 2 years now
>with no worries. The fish do their usual sand sifting (they love the beach
>sand) and never have I seen a mouth wound. Also I have never seen any
>compacting of the sand as many ppl say will happen. Give it a bash, it looks
>very natural and is pleasing to the eye and more importantly I think it
>suites the wee fishies just fine! Just be sure to rinse the sand and shells
>VERY well, possibly let it soak for a few days. G'Luck.

Right now I have about 2" of very fine white sand mixed with some
larger brown gravel (not a whole lot, mainly for texture).

I think I'll pick up some coral and sea shells, and mix it in with the
sand. If I can keep all the fish on one side of the tank while I add
the coral, it shouldn't be too bad :)

[Kodiak]

Damn I should have studied my chemistry....
....Kodiak

"Jeff Dantzler" > wrote in message
news:1076617290.920731@yasure...
> Kodiak > wrote:
> > Can you post this recipe? (rift lake buffer the usual salt, epsom salt
and
> > baking soda)
> > ...Kodiak
>
> Here's a repost of a recipe I have...
>
> Here's my recipe for Tanganyika water:
>
> FYI, my tapwater is soft. TDS ~ 40 mg/L. KH & GH are both less than 2
> degrees. Therefore this is about as "from scratch" as it gets. Adjust
> amounts down according to your GH & KH. Also mg/L is same as ppm.
>
> MgCl-6H2O 0.2 g/L
> NaHCO3 0.25 g/L (baking soda)
> KHCO3 0.125 g/L
> CaSO4-2H2O 0.035 g/L (gypsom)
>
> This adds 8 mg/L Ca++, 69 mg/L Na+, 24 mg/L Mg++, 34 mg/L K+, 258 mg/L
> HCO3-, 70 mg/L Cl-, & 20 mg/L SO4-.
>
> Notice there is NO NaCl added! the counterions from the above four salts
> give [Na+] = 69 mg/L and [Cl-] = 70 mg/L. Natural levels in Lake
> Tanganyika are 66 and 21 respectively so I already have MORE NaCl than is
> naturally found in the lake.
>
> This gives me a pH of 8 and TDS around 500-550 mg/L
>
> The water is clearly good for the pair of Neolamprologus brichardi in the
> tank as they have cranked out over 500 fry in the couple years the tank
> has been up and there has never been any disease. [NO3] < 10 mg/L from
> weekly 50% water changes.
>
> Jeff Dantzler
> Seattle, WA

[Jeff Dantzler]

Kodiak > wrote:
> Damn I should have studied my chemistry....

Kodiak--what's your water like and what sort of water chemistry are you
going for?

I would only mess with your chemistry if you are trying to keep rift lake
cichlids in soft water. African riverine and most new world cichlids are
very adaptable to various water chemistries. There are a few new world
cichlids that appreciate very soft water and would do poorly in hard,
Texas water for example. In that case you aren't messing with chemistry in
the sense of adding things--more like investing in a reverse osmosis unit
to remove them.

I keep a red devil and some Neetroplus (both from around lake Nicaragua--
which is very hard water), a couple loaches, and some African catfish
(Synodontis) in soft, Seattle water. The barbed-ones appreciate the soft
water as that is what they like and they are more picky. The cichlids
could care less though and do great.

A key thing to go by with water chemistry is that sudden changes in pH or
hardness are generally bad. Unless there is a compelling reason to change
the chemistry, it is best not to fiddle with it. In my case, I wanted to
keep a rift lake cichlid (Neolamprologus brichardi from lake Tanganyika)
at work, where the water is very soft. I had to add general hardness (Ca++
and Mg++ ions) and alkalinity or carbonate hardness (mainly bicarbonate or
HCO3-) or the fish would be unhappy. They are somewhat picky. I have to
mix the water up, dechlorinate it, and have it at the right temperature
before adding it to the tank. Pain, but it is a small tank so one bucket
is a 50% change.

here are pics of those 2 tanks:

http://www.drizzle.com/~dantzler/images/Fish/Red_Devil.JPG
http://www.drizzle.com/~dantzler/images/Fish/N_brichardi.JPG

JLD

[Robert MacCara]

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 07:55:18 +0000, Jeff Dantzler wrote:

> Kodiak > wrote:
>> Damn I should have studied my chemistry....
>

> A key thing to go by with water chemistry is that sudden changes in pH or
> hardness are generally bad. Unless there is a compelling reason to change
> the chemistry, it is best not to fiddle with it. In my case, I wanted to
> keep a rift lake cichlid (Neolamprologus brichardi from lake Tanganyika)
> at work, where the water is very soft. I had to add general hardness (Ca++
> and Mg++ ions) and alkalinity or carbonate hardness (mainly bicarbonate or
> HCO3-) or the fish would be unhappy. They are somewhat picky. I have to
> mix the water up, dechlorinate it, and have it at the right temperature
> before adding it to the tank. Pain, but it is a small tank so one bucket
> is a 50% change.
>
> here are pics of those 2 tanks:
>
> http://www.drizzle.com/~dantzler/images/Fish/Red_Devil.JPG
> http://www.drizzle.com/~dantzler/images/Fish/N_brichardi.JPG

Hi Jeff,
I like your tank setup, and am wondering if my 10gal tank decor will be
suitable for some neolamprologus crassus I'm waiting for. Here is a
picture of the tank: www.dvs.ca/fish/dwarf.jpg and some pics of my
regular tank can be found here: www.dvs.ca/fish
Thanks,
Rob

[Bob]

"Cichlidiot" > wrote in message
...

> Not to nitpick, but pH is not directly related to GH. It is related to KH

Well, it seems pretty picky to me :), and also I don't think you are correct
in saying so.

So, just to be more picky, GH is actually made of carbonate and permanent
hardness, so there _is_ a relation, and if you check my original post, I
never said there was a _direct_ relation.

Also permanent hardness (what you may be mistaking for general hardness)
can affect ph, even though it does not affect buffering capacity.

Here is a link that explains it in more detail
http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/water/hardness.htm

Bob

[Jeff Dantzler]

Robert MacCara > wrote:

> I like your tank setup, and am wondering if my 10gal tank decor will be
> suitable for some neolamprologus crassus I'm waiting for. Here is a
> picture of the tank: www.dvs.ca/fish/dwarf.jpg and some pics of my
> regular tank can be found here: www.dvs.ca/fish

I'm not real familiar with N. crassus. I picked the N. brichardis because
they have a strong pair bond and a small and long-lasting territory.
The pair does well in my tank which is about 15 gallons. I probably
wouldn't try to keep them in anything smaller nor add any fish.

This tank was inspired by Juan Miguel Artigas Azas. See:

http://www.cichlidae.com/tanks/t004.html

I like your larger tanks and you have some interesting species.


Cheers--Jeff

[Kodiak]

Thanks for excellemnt article on hardness Bob.
Could you please comment how water softners work?
I keep seeing big bags of water softening salt, but how does
adding salt make water soft? I figure after reading your article that adding
salt should
make the water harder! (figuring there would be more carbonates from adding
the Sodium Chloride)
Ids there something else going on inside a water softener, besides adding
Salt to the water?
....Kodiak

"Bob" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Cichlidiot" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > Not to nitpick, but pH is not directly related to GH. It is related to
KH
>
> Well, it seems pretty picky to me :), and also I don't think you are
correct
> in saying so.
>
> So, just to be more picky, GH is actually made of carbonate and permanent
> hardness, so there _is_ a relation, and if you check my original post, I
> never said there was a _direct_ relation.
>
> Also permanent hardness (what you may be mistaking for general hardness)
> can affect ph, even though it does not affect buffering capacity.
>
> Here is a link that explains it in more detail
> http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/water/hardness.htm
>
> Bob
>
>

[Kodiak]

Hi Jeff,
My GH and KH are very low right out of the tap. I'm sitting somewhere
between
20-30ppm. I have various tanks, one of them is a 220gal with six 4inch
Devils. I think it
was you who blasted me for cyclying my tank with them in there, but I had no
choice,
When the Nitrite was spiking I did 50 gallon water changes daily for almost
2 weeks.
Everything is OK now, but GH/KH is low and I'm concerned about an eventual
PH crash.
Should i be adding oyster shells to the filter? I heard that adding Baking
Soda is only
temporary and does not really work. I understand as you mention here that
Devils prefer
slightly Alkhaline or hard water, I want to give them an optimal home.

I also picked up some orphaned fish from a guy who was getting out of the
hobby, he says
they are Julidochromis r. regani Poll 1942 (Lake Tanganyikan) but they
have vertical black stripes
as opposed to the Horizontal ones i see in my book here. I never kept
African Cichlids before,
In a previous post there was a recipe for Tanganyikan water wich was around
a pH of 8 and
TDS around 500-550 mg/L.

Can you tell me what the relationship is between TDS and GH/KH ?

....Kodiak


"Jeff Dantzler" > wrote in message
news:1076658916.963838@yasure...
> Kodiak > wrote:
> > Damn I should have studied my chemistry....
>
> Kodiak--what's your water like and what sort of water chemistry are you
> going for?
>
> I would only mess with your chemistry if you are trying to keep rift lake
> cichlids in soft water. African riverine and most new world cichlids are
> very adaptable to various water chemistries. There are a few new world
> cichlids that appreciate very soft water and would do poorly in hard,
> Texas water for example. In that case you aren't messing with chemistry in
> the sense of adding things--more like investing in a reverse osmosis unit
> to remove them.
>
> I keep a red devil and some Neetroplus (both from around lake Nicaragua--
> which is very hard water), a couple loaches, and some African catfish
> (Synodontis) in soft, Seattle water. The barbed-ones appreciate the soft
> water as that is what they like and they are more picky. The cichlids
> could care less though and do great.
>
> A key thing to go by with water chemistry is that sudden changes in pH or
> hardness are generally bad. Unless there is a compelling reason to change
> the chemistry, it is best not to fiddle with it. In my case, I wanted to
> keep a rift lake cichlid (Neolamprologus brichardi from lake Tanganyika)
> at work, where the water is very soft. I had to add general hardness (Ca++
> and Mg++ ions) and alkalinity or carbonate hardness (mainly bicarbonate or
> HCO3-) or the fish would be unhappy. They are somewhat picky. I have to
> mix the water up, dechlorinate it, and have it at the right temperature
> before adding it to the tank. Pain, but it is a small tank so one bucket
> is a 50% change.
>
> here are pics of those 2 tanks:
>
> http://www.drizzle.com/~dantzler/images/Fish/Red_Devil.JPG
> http://www.drizzle.com/~dantzler/images/Fish/N_brichardi.JPG
>
> JLD

[Bob]

"Kodiak" > wrote in message
. ..
> adding salt make water soft? I figure after reading your article that
adding
> salt should
> make the water harder! (figuring there would be more carbonates from
adding
> the Sodium Chloride)
> Ids there something else going on inside a water softener, besides adding
> Salt to the water?


Well, it keeps it the same I think...it just replaces one type of mineral
with another, calcium and magneseum with sodium...To fish this is going to
be basically the same because the osmiotic pressure is the same...and this
is what effects how they regulate their own hydration and excretion systems.

Adding anything to soften water for fish is a bad idea...you have to remove
stuff to really soften water (and thereby lower the osmiotic pressure)...for
a process to really work it would have to remove the stuff right out as in
reverse osmosis

The short answer is an ion-exchange water softener doesn't make hard water
more suitable for fish that like soft water.

Bob

[Cichlidiot]

Bob > wrote:

> "Cichlidiot" > wrote in message
> ...

>> Not to nitpick, but pH is not directly related to GH. It is related to KH

> Well, it seems pretty picky to me :), and also I don't think you are correct
> in saying so.

> So, just to be more picky, GH is actually made of carbonate and permanent
> hardness, so there _is_ a relation, and if you check my original post, I
> never said there was a _direct_ relation.

> Also permanent hardness (what you may be mistaking for general hardness)
> can affect ph, even though it does not affect buffering capacity.

> Here is a link that explains it in more detail
> http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/water/hardness.htm

I think what is happening here is called the good old "hardness
terminology confusion". What fishdoc is calling "general hardness" I
believe is more accurately called "total hardness". While total hardness
refers to the sum total of general and carbonate hardness, it is not quite
accurate to say GH is calcium carbonate (CaCO3), although some test kits
do use this as a method of measurement (and in such cases, the kits should
provide excessive carbonates in their reagents to ensure this is not a
limiting factor in the reactions) and CaCO3 is a common source of ions in
water. And thus the confusion is born. However, convention is to say GH
refers to the cations (Ca and Mg) while KH refers to the anions
(carbonates and bicarbonates). Total hardness refers to them all together.

Consider the fact that there are far more ways to get more carbonate in
water than from calcium carbonate. For example, tap water that has gone
through a water softener. The action of a water softener replaces Ca ions
with Na ions, so you will end up with a much higher KH in relation to the
GH, because the carbonate ions are still there. Likewise, if you add
baking soda, it will increase the KH, but the GH will remain the same. pH
is related to KH. A water softener does not lower the pH of the water
(unless by the actions of CO2, but that's another matter) even though it
lowers the GH of the water. Adding baking soda will often raise the pH
even though it does not raise the GH.

Thus the relationship between GH and KH is based on the relationship
between Ca and Mg ions (GH) to their carbonate counterparts (KH). Each
could exist without the other, although it is exceedingly common for there
to be carbonates were there is calcium ions because CaCO3 is a common
source of calcium and carbonates in water. So to say raising GH will raise
pH is not accurate as you can find ways to add calcium or magnessium ions
without adding carbonate ions. Without the addition of carbonate ions, pH
will remain unaffected. That is the basis of my nit picking. You told the
original poster to raise his GH to raise his pH. You would have been more
accurate to tell him to raise the KH as it is the carbonate ions that
affect the pH, not the calcium ions.

To the original poster, here are some links from The Krib that will help:

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/hardness-larryfrank.html
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/khgh.html
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/kh-ph-co2.html

[Kodiak]

Hi Bob,
I had some more questions on soft water. What I read in your article
(link) was;

"As hard water is more concentrated than soft, there will be less difference
and therefore less water influx and consequently the fish will not have to
work so hard at osmoregulation."

I would take that to mean as Hard water is easier on freshwater fish (less
influx).
The article recommended between 100-300ppm Total hardness.
"optimum hardness range for most pond fish would be between 100 - 300
mg/litre CaCO3

you mentioned below that
"you have to remove stuff to really soften water (and thereby lower the
osmiotic pressure)..
for a process to really work it would have to remove the stuff right out as
in reverse osmosis"

Isn't RO water a bad idea? Dosen't it remove all hardness GH and KH? Isn't
that bad for the fish?
Won't that cause PH swinging or PH crash? I guess if you are keeping Discus
which need low PH
then RO might be a good idea. Am I on the right track here?

....Kodiak


"Bob" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Kodiak" > wrote in message
> . ..
> > adding salt make water soft? I figure after reading your article that
> adding
> > salt should
> > make the water harder! (figuring there would be more carbonates from
> adding
> > the Sodium Chloride)
> > Ids there something else going on inside a water softener, besides
adding
> > Salt to the water?
>
>
> Well, it keeps it the same I think...it just replaces one type of mineral
> with another, calcium and magneseum with sodium...To fish this is going to
> be basically the same because the osmiotic pressure is the same...and this
> is what effects how they regulate their own hydration and excretion
systems.
>
> Adding anything to soften water for fish is a bad idea...you have to
remove
> stuff to really soften water (and thereby lower the osmiotic
pressure)...for
> a process to really work it would have to remove the stuff right out as in
> reverse osmosis
>
> The short answer is an ion-exchange water softener doesn't make hard water
> more suitable for fish that like soft water.
>
> Bob
>
>

[battlelance]

On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 08:59:59 +0000 (UTC), Cichlidiot
> wrote:

You told the
>original poster to raise his GH to raise his pH. You would have been more
>accurate to tell him to raise the KH as it is the carbonate ions that
>affect the pH, not the calcium ions.

Coming back to the rift lake buffer recipe:

Using baking soda will increase KH and pH correct? And the epsom salt
is used to raise the GH?

And the marine salt would be used to add trace minerals commonly found
in the african lakes?

[Cichlidiot]

Kodiak > wrote:
> Hi Bob,
> I had some more questions on soft water. What I read in your article
> (link) was;

> "As hard water is more concentrated than soft, there will be less difference
> and therefore less water influx and consequently the fish will not have to
> work so hard at osmoregulation."

> I would take that to mean as Hard water is easier on freshwater fish (less
> influx).
> The article recommended between 100-300ppm Total hardness.
> "optimum hardness range for most pond fish would be between 100 - 300
> mg/litre CaCO3

> you mentioned below that
> "you have to remove stuff to really soften water (and thereby lower the
> osmiotic pressure)..
> for a process to really work it would have to remove the stuff right out as
> in reverse osmosis"

> Isn't RO water a bad idea? Dosen't it remove all hardness GH and KH? Isn't
> that bad for the fish?
> Won't that cause PH swinging or PH crash? I guess if you are keeping Discus
> which need low PH
> then RO might be a good idea. Am I on the right track here?

RO water is commonly used as a starting point for mixing up water
appropriate for various types of fish, but probably most often used for
"black water" fish that come from very soft water. In most cases, you'd
add back in trace elements at the very least, and usually a little KH and
GH. Some people also mix it back with a little tap water to add back some
minerals and trace elements. And I've gotten a few rift lake cichlids from
auction who were bagged in RO water (although they were not in the best of
shape).

Personally, I've only used RO or distilled water as topping off water or
to mix with the tap water when I was having real problems with plants
dying in my betta tank that I suspected could have been influenced by the
water softener on my tap. But then I mostly keep hard water fish. Were I
to keep some black water fish like discus, I'd probably mix RO water with
regular tap to cut down on the sodium from the water softener, then filter
through peat.

[Jeff Dantzler]

> My GH and KH are very low right out of the tap. I'm sitting somewhere
> between 20-30ppm. I have various tanks, one of them is a 220gal with six
> 4inch Devils.
> Everything is OK now, but GH/KH is low and I'm concerned about an eventual
> PH crash. Should i be adding oyster shells to the filter? I heard that
> adding Baking Soda is only temporary and does not really work. I
> understand as you mention here that Devils prefer slightly Alkaline or
> hard water, I want to give them an optimal home.

Your devils are fine in your tapwater as it is. They are very robust and
adaptable because they evolved in dynamic conditions. You only have to
worry about a pH crash (as in becoming more acidic) if you are very lax on
maintenance. Keep up with water changes and these fish will be very happy.

> I also picked up some orphaned fish from a guy who was getting out of
> the hobby, he says they are Julidochromis r. regani Poll 1942 (Lake
> Tanganyikan) but they have vertical black stripes as opposed to the
> Horizontal ones i see in my book here. I never kept African Cichlids
> before, In a previous post there was a recipe for Tanganyikan water wich
> was around a pH of 8 and TDS around 500-550 mg/L.

These fish appreciate water similar to the stable lake they evolved in.
You will need to treat the water to make it harder and more basic. If you
aren't sure about how to add a homemade mix, or can't get the ingredients
easily, you are best off buying a ready-made "rift lake bufer" and using
it according to the manufacturers instructions. I recommend treating the
water in the bucket or tub and then adding it to the tank.

> Can you tell me what the relationship is between TDS and GH/KH ?

TDS is total dissolved solids in mg/mL or ppm (they are equivalent).
It is every gram of material that is not water divided by the volume of
solution in liters.

GH is a measure of Ca++ and Mg++. Since neither Ca++ or Mg++ can evaporate
or be converted to something which can evaporate, they are "permanent"
hardness (another term for general hardness).

KH is essentially a measure of bicarbonate (HCO-) when the pH is within
the range appropriate for fishkeeping.

Baking soda contributes only to KH (or carbonate hardness--also called
alkalinity or temporary hardness) since it is a sodium (ie not Mg or
Ca) salt. It is temporary in the sense that is can react with acid to form
water and carbon dioxide gas. The nitrogen cycle produces acid. The
bicarbonate part of baking soda will get "used up" as it reacts with this
acid and CO2 escapes to the air. KH will go down over time.

It is very confusing because there are so many terms which refer to the
same thing. A good place to learn more is here:

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/hardness-larryfrank.html

and other related links at the krib.

Remember that your fish like stable conditions. For the devils that means
just keeping up with regualar water changes from the tap. For the Julis,
that means always adding the same "rift lake buffer" (or equivalent) to
the changewater BEFORE adding it to the tank. The julis need frequent
water changes--just make sure the water you add is always modified in the
same way.

Consistency is far more important than endless fiddling. Make any changes
gradually. If the julis are in tapwater, do very small but frequent water
changes with "rift lake buffer" treated water. Eventually, the tank will
be the same as the changewater and then you'll be golden.

JLD

[Kodiak]

Thank you for all the info Jeff, I live up in Canada and these rift lake
buffer solutions cost
a fortune. In a previous post you posted your recipe for Tanganyikan lake
rift water;

MgCl-6H2O 0.2 g/L
NaHCO3 0.25 g/L (baking soda)
KHCO3 0.125 g/L
CaSO4-2H2O 0.035 g/L (gypsom)

MgCl-6H20 is that epsom salt?
KHCO3 what is that?
Where can I buy Gypsom?

....Kodiak




"Jeff Dantzler" > wrote in message
news:1076813709.31245@yasure...
> > My GH and KH are very low right out of the tap. I'm sitting somewhere
> > between 20-30ppm. I have various tanks, one of them is a 220gal with six
> > 4inch Devils.
> > Everything is OK now, but GH/KH is low and I'm concerned about an
eventual
> > PH crash. Should i be adding oyster shells to the filter? I heard that
> > adding Baking Soda is only temporary and does not really work. I
> > understand as you mention here that Devils prefer slightly Alkaline or
> > hard water, I want to give them an optimal home.
>
> Your devils are fine in your tapwater as it is. They are very robust and
> adaptable because they evolved in dynamic conditions. You only have to
> worry about a pH crash (as in becoming more acidic) if you are very lax on
> maintenance. Keep up with water changes and these fish will be very happy.
>
> > I also picked up some orphaned fish from a guy who was getting out of
> > the hobby, he says they are Julidochromis r. regani Poll 1942 (Lake
> > Tanganyikan) but they have vertical black stripes as opposed to the
> > Horizontal ones i see in my book here. I never kept African Cichlids
> > before, In a previous post there was a recipe for Tanganyikan water wich
> > was around a pH of 8 and TDS around 500-550 mg/L.
>
> These fish appreciate water similar to the stable lake they evolved in.
> You will need to treat the water to make it harder and more basic. If you
> aren't sure about how to add a homemade mix, or can't get the ingredients
> easily, you are best off buying a ready-made "rift lake bufer" and using
> it according to the manufacturers instructions. I recommend treating the
> water in the bucket or tub and then adding it to the tank.
>
> > Can you tell me what the relationship is between TDS and GH/KH ?
>
> TDS is total dissolved solids in mg/mL or ppm (they are equivalent).
> It is every gram of material that is not water divided by the volume of
> solution in liters.
>
> GH is a measure of Ca++ and Mg++. Since neither Ca++ or Mg++ can evaporate
> or be converted to something which can evaporate, they are "permanent"
> hardness (another term for general hardness).
>
> KH is essentially a measure of bicarbonate (HCO-) when the pH is within
> the range appropriate for fishkeeping.
>
> Baking soda contributes only to KH (or carbonate hardness--also called
> alkalinity or temporary hardness) since it is a sodium (ie not Mg or
> Ca) salt. It is temporary in the sense that is can react with acid to form
> water and carbon dioxide gas. The nitrogen cycle produces acid. The
> bicarbonate part of baking soda will get "used up" as it reacts with this
> acid and CO2 escapes to the air. KH will go down over time.
>
> It is very confusing because there are so many terms which refer to the
> same thing. A good place to learn more is here:
>
> http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/hardness-larryfrank.html
>
> and other related links at the krib.
>
> Remember that your fish like stable conditions. For the devils that means
> just keeping up with regualar water changes from the tap. For the Julis,
> that means always adding the same "rift lake buffer" (or equivalent) to
> the changewater BEFORE adding it to the tank. The julis need frequent
> water changes--just make sure the water you add is always modified in the
> same way.
>
> Consistency is far more important than endless fiddling. Make any changes
> gradually. If the julis are in tapwater, do very small but frequent water
> changes with "rift lake buffer" treated water. Eventually, the tank will
> be the same as the changewater and then you'll be golden.
>
> JLD

[Jeff Dantzler]

Kodiak > wrote:
> Thank you for all the info Jeff, I live up in Canada and these rift
> lake buffer solutions cost a fortune. In a previous post you posted
> your recipe for Tanganyikan lake rift water:

> MgCl2-6H2O 0.2 g/L
> NaHCO3 0.25 g/L (baking soda)
> KHCO3 0.125 g/L
> CaSO4-2H2O 0.035 g/L (gypsum)

> MgCl-6H20 is that epsom salt?

MgCl2-6H2O is used to deice roads. Not sure about availablitiy
(or purity).

Epsom salt is MgSO4-7H2O. It is commonly available in pharmacies.

Here's how to figure out the equivalent amount of epsom salt:

The formula weight of MgCl2-6H2O is 203.21 and the atomic weight
of Mg is 24.31 so MgCl2-6H2O is 24.31 / 203.21 = .11963 or about
12% Mg. When you add 0.2 g/L of MgCl2-6H2O, you are adding
0.12 * 0.2 = .024 g/L of Mg. This is equivalent to 24 mg/L (or ppm).

You need to figure out how much epsom salt to add to give this same
amount of Mg.

The formula weight MgSO4-7H2O is 246.31 and atomic weight of
Mg is 24.31 so epsom salt is 24.31 / 246.31 = 0.0987 or about 10% Mg.
Since there is less Mg per gram of MgSO4-7H2O, you need to add a little
more to get 24 mg/L. 12% / 10% = 1.2 so add 1.2 * 0.2 g/L or 0.24 g/L
to get 24 mg/L.

> KHCO3 what is that?

Potassium bicarbonate. For our purposes, it is a good source of potassium
as well as KH. You can get this as a dietary supplement.

Try here:
http://holisticlifeenterprises.goemerchant7.com/index.cgi?PageToView=
catalog&Department=41244&Merchant=holisticlifeenterprises

> Where can I buy Gypsum?

Places that sell home brewing supplies will have gypsum.

If you have a gram scale, measuring is easy. If not, you could borrow
one and figure out how much measuring spoonfuls weigh and then use them
in the future.

If you have any questions or want me to double check any calculations,
let me know.

JLD

[Kodiak]

Thanks Jeff, I follow the calculations for using Epsom Salt
as a sub for the de-icer (same Mg) Just wondering if the
addition of the SO4 in the epsom salt as opposed to the
Cl2 in the de-icer will adversely effect the mix?
Thank you for expanding the recipe. I will try it.
....Kodiak

"Jeff Dantzler" > wrote in message
news:1076952650.962320@yasure...
> Kodiak > wrote:
> > Thank you for all the info Jeff, I live up in Canada and these rift
> > lake buffer solutions cost a fortune. In a previous post you posted
> > your recipe for Tanganyikan lake rift water:
>
> > MgCl2-6H2O 0.2 g/L
> > NaHCO3 0.25 g/L (baking soda)
> > KHCO3 0.125 g/L
> > CaSO4-2H2O 0.035 g/L (gypsum)
>
> > MgCl-6H20 is that epsom salt?
>
> MgCl2-6H2O is used to deice roads. Not sure about availablitiy
> (or purity).
>
> Epsom salt is MgSO4-7H2O. It is commonly available in pharmacies.
>
> Here's how to figure out the equivalent amount of epsom salt:
>
> The formula weight of MgCl2-6H2O is 203.21 and the atomic weight
> of Mg is 24.31 so MgCl2-6H2O is 24.31 / 203.21 = .11963 or about
> 12% Mg. When you add 0.2 g/L of MgCl2-6H2O, you are adding
> 0.12 * 0.2 = .024 g/L of Mg. This is equivalent to 24 mg/L (or ppm).
>
> You need to figure out how much epsom salt to add to give this same
> amount of Mg.
>
> The formula weight MgSO4-7H2O is 246.31 and atomic weight of
> Mg is 24.31 so epsom salt is 24.31 / 246.31 = 0.0987 or about 10% Mg.
> Since there is less Mg per gram of MgSO4-7H2O, you need to add a little
> more to get 24 mg/L. 12% / 10% = 1.2 so add 1.2 * 0.2 g/L or 0.24 g/L
> to get 24 mg/L.
>
> > KHCO3 what is that?
>
> Potassium bicarbonate. For our purposes, it is a good source of potassium
> as well as KH. You can get this as a dietary supplement.
>
> Try here:
> http://holisticlifeenterprises.goemerchant7.com/index.cgi?PageToView=
> catalog&Department=41244&Merchant=holisticlifeenterprises
>
> > Where can I buy Gypsum?
>
> Places that sell home brewing supplies will have gypsum.
>
> If you have a gram scale, measuring is easy. If not, you could borrow
> one and figure out how much measuring spoonfuls weigh and then use them
> in the future.
>
> If you have any questions or want me to double check any calculations,
> let me know.
>
> JLD

[Kodiak]

Hi Jeff,
Not sure you got previous post, please comment on;

> Thanks Jeff, I follow the calculations for using Epsom Salt
> as a sub for the de-icer (same Mg) Just wondering if the
> addition of the SO4 in the epsom salt as opposed to the
> Cl2 in the de-icer will adversely effect the mix?
> Thank you for expanding the recipe. I will try it.
> ...Kodiak
--
....Kodiak


"Kodiak" > wrote in message
.. .
> Thanks Jeff, I follow the calculations for using Epsom Salt
> as a sub for the de-icer (same Mg) Just wondering if the
> addition of the SO4 in the epsom salt as opposed to the
> Cl2 in the de-icer will adversely effect the mix?
> Thank you for expanding the recipe. I will try it.
> ...Kodiak
>
> "Jeff Dantzler" > wrote in message
> news:1076952650.962320@yasure...
> > Kodiak > wrote:
> > > Thank you for all the info Jeff, I live up in Canada and these rift
> > > lake buffer solutions cost a fortune. In a previous post you posted
> > > your recipe for Tanganyikan lake rift water:
> >
> > > MgCl2-6H2O 0.2 g/L
> > > NaHCO3 0.25 g/L (baking soda)
> > > KHCO3 0.125 g/L
> > > CaSO4-2H2O 0.035 g/L (gypsum)
> >
> > > MgCl-6H20 is that epsom salt?
> >
> > MgCl2-6H2O is used to deice roads. Not sure about availablitiy
> > (or purity).
> >
> > Epsom salt is MgSO4-7H2O. It is commonly available in pharmacies.
> >
> > Here's how to figure out the equivalent amount of epsom salt:
> >
> > The formula weight of MgCl2-6H2O is 203.21 and the atomic weight
> > of Mg is 24.31 so MgCl2-6H2O is 24.31 / 203.21 = .11963 or about
> > 12% Mg. When you add 0.2 g/L of MgCl2-6H2O, you are adding
> > 0.12 * 0.2 = .024 g/L of Mg. This is equivalent to 24 mg/L (or ppm).
> >
> > You need to figure out how much epsom salt to add to give this same
> > amount of Mg.
> >
> > The formula weight MgSO4-7H2O is 246.31 and atomic weight of
> > Mg is 24.31 so epsom salt is 24.31 / 246.31 = 0.0987 or about 10% Mg.
> > Since there is less Mg per gram of MgSO4-7H2O, you need to add a little
> > more to get 24 mg/L. 12% / 10% = 1.2 so add 1.2 * 0.2 g/L or 0.24 g/L
> > to get 24 mg/L.
> >
> > > KHCO3 what is that?
> >
> > Potassium bicarbonate. For our purposes, it is a good source of
potassium
> > as well as KH. You can get this as a dietary supplement.
> >
> > Try here:
> > http://holisticlifeenterprises.goemerchant7.com/index.cgi?PageToView=
> > catalog&Department=41244&Merchant=holisticlifeenterprises
> >
> > > Where can I buy Gypsum?
> >
> > Places that sell home brewing supplies will have gypsum.
> >
> > If you have a gram scale, measuring is easy. If not, you could borrow
> > one and figure out how much measuring spoonfuls weigh and then use them
> > in the future.
> >
> > If you have any questions or want me to double check any calculations,
> > let me know.
> >
> > JLD
>
>

[Jeff Dantzler]

Kodiak > wrote:
> Thanks Jeff, I follow the calculations for using Epsom Salt
> as a sub for the de-icer (same Mg) Just wondering if the
> addition of the SO4 in the epsom salt as opposed to the
> Cl2 in the de-icer will adversely effect the mix?
> Thank you for expanding the recipe. I will try it.

There is little SO4-- in the lake (3.4ppm).

But also there is not much Cl- (21ppm).

SO4-- is not toxic in these amounts.

It's kind of a compromise since in order to get the required ions
Ca++, Mg++, K+, & HCO3-, you must also add the counterions (often Cl-,
SO4--, or Na+) of whatever salts you choose.

The fish will adapt to somewhat higher levels of , Cl-, SO4--, or Na+.

The required ions are important for the phisiology of the rift lake
fishes and some amount of extraneous stuff is okay.

You should be fine adding the epsom salt instead of magnesium chloride.

JLD

[Kodiak]

Hey Jeff,
Many thanks for your recipe and thanks for elaborating
details. I will try the recipe, add it in slowly and let you know.
Thanks again....
....Kodiak

"Jeff Dantzler" > wrote in message
news:1077464604.809937@yasure...
> Kodiak > wrote:
> > Thanks Jeff, I follow the calculations for using Epsom Salt
> > as a sub for the de-icer (same Mg) Just wondering if the
> > addition of the SO4 in the epsom salt as opposed to the
> > Cl2 in the de-icer will adversely effect the mix?
> > Thank you for expanding the recipe. I will try it.
>
> There is little SO4-- in the lake (3.4ppm).
>
> But also there is not much Cl- (21ppm).
>
> SO4-- is not toxic in these amounts.
>
> It's kind of a compromise since in order to get the required ions
> Ca++, Mg++, K+, & HCO3-, you must also add the counterions (often Cl-,
> SO4--, or Na+) of whatever salts you choose.
>
> The fish will adapt to somewhat higher levels of , Cl-, SO4--, or Na+.
>
> The required ions are important for the phisiology of the rift lake
> fishes and some amount of extraneous stuff is okay.
>
> You should be fine adding the epsom salt instead of magnesium chloride.
>
> JLD

[Kodiak]

Hi Jeff,
What do you think of this stuff for use as
one of your rift lake buffer ingredients;

http://www.ahperformance.com/flowk.asp

There is a "flow" additive which i believe is Magnesium
Oxide to prevent it from cakeing. I imagine if anything it will
yeild a bit more Mg in your Rift lake buffer recipe.
Is that alright to use do you think?

....Kodiak

"Kodiak" > wrote in message
...
> Hey Jeff,
> Many thanks for your recipe and thanks for elaborating
> details. I will try the recipe, add it in slowly and let you know.
> Thanks again....
> ...Kodiak
>
> "Jeff Dantzler" > wrote in message
> news:1077464604.809937@yasure...
> > Kodiak > wrote:
> > > Thanks Jeff, I follow the calculations for using Epsom Salt
> > > as a sub for the de-icer (same Mg) Just wondering if the
> > > addition of the SO4 in the epsom salt as opposed to the
> > > Cl2 in the de-icer will adversely effect the mix?
> > > Thank you for expanding the recipe. I will try it.
> >
> > There is little SO4-- in the lake (3.4ppm).
> >
> > But also there is not much Cl- (21ppm).
> >
> > SO4-- is not toxic in these amounts.
> >
> > It's kind of a compromise since in order to get the required ions
> > Ca++, Mg++, K+, & HCO3-, you must also add the counterions (often Cl-,
> > SO4--, or Na+) of whatever salts you choose.
> >
> > The fish will adapt to somewhat higher levels of , Cl-, SO4--, or Na+.
> >
> > The required ions are important for the phisiology of the rift lake
> > fishes and some amount of extraneous stuff is okay.
> >
> > You should be fine adding the epsom salt instead of magnesium chloride.
> >
> > JLD
>
>

[Jeff Dantzler]

Kodiak > wrote:
> Hi Jeff,
> What do you think of this stuff for use as
> one of your rift lake buffer ingredients;

> http://www.ahperformance.com/flowk.asp

> There is a "flow" additive which i believe is Magnesium
> Oxide to prevent it from cakeing. I imagine if anything it will
> yeild a bit more Mg in your Rift lake buffer recipe.
> Is that alright to use do you think?

That won't be a problem as far as I can tell.

The link is for potassium bicarbonate, so you will raise K+,
HCO-, and pH by adding that product. There probably won't be
significant amount of Mg added.

Here are concentrations in ppm or mg/mL

Ca Na Mg K HCO3 Cl SO4
Tanganyika 8.2 66.3 43.5 34.2 344 21 3.4
Malawi 19.8 20.9 4.7 6.3 142 4.2 5.3

You are shooting for 34 mg/mL of K, so watch how much you
put in.

JLD

[Kodiak]

Hi Jeff,
Please help me out here, I'm a bit confused.

firstly;
ppm=mg/L not mg/ml is that correct?

2ndly;
previous post for Tanganyika rift lake buffer was;

> > MgCl2-6H2O 0.2 g/L (Magnesium Chloride or road de-icer)
> > NaHCO3 0.25 g/L (Sodium Bicarbonate baking soda)
> > KHCO3 0.125 g/L (Potassium Bicarbonate)
> > CaSO4-2H2O 0.035 g/L (Calcium Sulfate Gypsum)

You also mentioned formula weight for MgCl2-6H2O was 203.21
and atomic weight of Mg was 24.31.

In this post you mention I need 43.5ppm of Mg for Tanganyika.
43.5ppm=43.5mg/L of Mg or ( 203.21/24.31)*43.5=363ppm of MgCl2-6H2O

363ppm=363mg/L or 0.363g/L but the buffer recipe is 0.2g/L

Can you doublecheck your recipe or please help me out with the math?


....Kodiak


"Jeff Dantzler" > wrote in message
news:1077724328.208715@yasure...
> Kodiak > wrote:
> > Hi Jeff,
> > What do you think of this stuff for use as
> > one of your rift lake buffer ingredients;
>
> > http://www.ahperformance.com/flowk.asp
>
> > There is a "flow" additive which i believe is Magnesium
> > Oxide to prevent it from cakeing. I imagine if anything it will
> > yeild a bit more Mg in your Rift lake buffer recipe.
> > Is that alright to use do you think?
>
> That won't be a problem as far as I can tell.
>
> The link is for potassium bicarbonate, so you will raise K+,
> HCO-, and pH by adding that product. There probably won't be
> significant amount of Mg added.
>
> Here are concentrations in ppm or mg/mL
>
> Ca Na Mg K HCO3 Cl SO4
> Tanganyika 8.2 66.3 43.5 34.2 344 21 3.4
> Malawi 19.8 20.9 4.7 6.3 142 4.2 5.3
>
> You are shooting for 34 mg/mL of K, so watch how much you
> put in.
>
> JLD

[Jeff Dantzler]

Kodiak > wrote:
> Hi Jeff,
> Please help me out here, I'm a bit confused.

> firstly;
> ppm=mg/L not mg/ml is that correct?

ppm = mg/L

1 L of water is 1000g or 1,000,000mg, hence 1mg per L is 1 part per
million. One mg per mL would be one part per thousand.

Sorry about the mistake. I work with proteins all day and we measure them
in mg/mL. I must not have proof-read that post well enough.

You are definately on the ball though.

I will double-check your other question as soon as I get a chance.

JLD

[Jeff Dantzler]

Kodiak > wrote:
> 2ndly;
> previous post for Tanganyika rift lake buffer was;

> > > MgCl2-6H2O 0.2 g/L (Magnesium Chloride or road de-icer)
> > > NaHCO3 0.25 g/L (Sodium Bicarbonate baking soda)
> > > KHCO3 0.125 g/L (Potassium Bicarbonate)
> > > CaSO4-2H2O 0.035 g/L (Calcium Sulfate Gypsum)

> You also mentioned formula weight for MgCl2-6H2O was 203.21
> and atomic weight of Mg was 24.31.
> In this post you mention I need 43.5ppm of Mg for Tanganyika.
> 43.5ppm=43.5mg/L of Mg or ( 203.21/24.31)*43.5=363ppm of MgCl2-6H2O
> 363ppm=363mg/L or 0.363g/L but the buffer recipe is 0.2g/L
> Can you doublecheck your recipe or please help me out with the math?

MgCl2-6H2O is 24.31/203.21 or 12% Mg.

So for every 1 gram (=1000mg) of MgCl2-6H2O you add to 1 L of water
you get 12% of 1000mg or 120 mg per liter.

To get 44ppm you would add 44/120 of 1 gram or .367 grams per liter.

My recipe doesn't give you the exact values for Lake Tanganyika water
composition--that would be impossible. I compromise by adding as much
of the important ions (Ca++, Mg++, K+, & HCO3-) as I can without adding
unnaturally high levels of the counterions (Cl-, SO4--, & Na+). It was a
subjective descision, but in my experience, one that works well.

You are dead on with you observations and math. I should have been more
clear that the recipe is an approximation and not an exact reconstitution
of Lake Tanganyika water.

Hope this helps.

Jeff

BTW, I can be reached at dantzler at d r i z z l e dot c o m for email.

[Kodiak]

Hi Jeff,
Really appreciate your help on this rift lake buffer.
I figured that much about the counter-ions but just wanted
to double check.

The fish I adopted from this guy are Julidochromis,
he tells me they are Tanganyikan, but he never prepped his water.
I just wanted to make sure I get this right, i've never kept Africans
before.

I'm thinking i will make the recipe, but add it in slowly over the course
of the week.
....Kodiak


"Jeff Dantzler" > wrote in message
news:1077811377.426402@yasure...
> Kodiak > wrote:
> > 2ndly;
> > previous post for Tanganyika rift lake buffer was;
>
> > > > MgCl2-6H2O 0.2 g/L (Magnesium Chloride or road de-icer)
> > > > NaHCO3 0.25 g/L (Sodium Bicarbonate baking soda)
> > > > KHCO3 0.125 g/L (Potassium Bicarbonate)
> > > > CaSO4-2H2O 0.035 g/L (Calcium Sulfate Gypsum)
>
> > You also mentioned formula weight for MgCl2-6H2O was 203.21
> > and atomic weight of Mg was 24.31.
> > In this post you mention I need 43.5ppm of Mg for Tanganyika.
> > 43.5ppm=43.5mg/L of Mg or ( 203.21/24.31)*43.5=363ppm of MgCl2-6H2O
> > 363ppm=363mg/L or 0.363g/L but the buffer recipe is 0.2g/L
> > Can you doublecheck your recipe or please help me out with the math?
>
> MgCl2-6H2O is 24.31/203.21 or 12% Mg.
>
> So for every 1 gram (=1000mg) of MgCl2-6H2O you add to 1 L of water
> you get 12% of 1000mg or 120 mg per liter.
>
> To get 44ppm you would add 44/120 of 1 gram or .367 grams per liter.
>
> My recipe doesn't give you the exact values for Lake Tanganyika water
> composition--that would be impossible. I compromise by adding as much
> of the important ions (Ca++, Mg++, K+, & HCO3-) as I can without adding
> unnaturally high levels of the counterions (Cl-, SO4--, & Na+). It was a
> subjective descision, but in my experience, one that works well.
>
> You are dead on with you observations and math. I should have been more
> clear that the recipe is an approximation and not an exact reconstitution
> of Lake Tanganyika water.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Jeff
>
> BTW, I can be reached at dantzler at d r i z z l e dot c o m for email.

[shanefosster]

Water is obviously beneficial for Neolamprologus brichardi in tanks, because they have made into fried for a few years more than 500 tanks has been, and never had any disease. [nitric acid] 10 mg / l, from 50% weekly water changes.