I think I just killed all my fish

[SA]

I cannot believe I did this but I think I managed to kill an entire tank of
cichlids tonight. I am really bombed out about it.

I have a 45 gallon tank with some juveniles thriving for the past 3 months.
Typically I changed the water once a month when I had some community fish in
there and once the cichlids were really small. Today I decided to test for
nitrates and switch to a biweekly water change. I had changed 25% two weeks
ago. The nitrates were kind high so I decided to a more aggressive water
change around 40% of the water, I used a python like I always do and filled
the tank up with water close to temp as the tank. The thermometer did not
register a temp change and the heater stayed up after it was full for maybe
3min I used a water treatment in the tank. immediately after this all my
fish went to shock, sitting at the bottom of the tank still gasping for air.
Couldn't understand what went wrong initially I thought they were just
frightened because of the substrate vacuum etc.

Two hours later still gasping and one already dead... I'm afraid they will
be more!

I am so mad right now.

Any comments as to what might have gone wrong are very much appreciated.

And just yesterday I was bragging about their colors and behavior to my
wife, I screwed my self so bad.

TIA

Steve

[JazzyB]

Sorry to hear that.
"SA" > wrote in message
...
> I cannot believe I did this but I think I managed to kill an entire tank
of
> cichlids tonight. I am really bombed out about it.
>
> I have a 45 gallon tank with some juveniles thriving for the past 3
months.
> Typically I changed the water once a month when I had some community fish
in
> there and once the cichlids were really small. Today I decided to test for
> nitrates and switch to a biweekly water change. I had changed 25% two
weeks
> ago. The nitrates were kind high so I decided to a more aggressive water
> change around 40% of the water, I used a python like I always do and
filled
> the tank up with water close to temp as the tank. The thermometer did not
> register a temp change and the heater stayed up after it was full for
maybe
> 3min I used a water treatment in the tank. immediately after this all my
> fish went to shock, sitting at the bottom of the tank still gasping for
air.
> Couldn't understand what went wrong initially I thought they were just
> frightened because of the substrate vacuum etc.
>
> Two hours later still gasping and one already dead... I'm afraid they will
> be more!
>
> I am so mad right now.
>
> Any comments as to what might have gone wrong are very much appreciated.
>
> And just yesterday I was bragging about their colors and behavior to my
> wife, I screwed my self so bad.
>
> TIA
>
> Steve
>
>

[Mephistopheles]

"SA" > wrote in
:

> I cannot believe I did this but I think I managed to kill an
> entire tank of cichlids tonight. I am really bombed out about
> it.
>
> I have a 45 gallon tank with some juveniles thriving for the
> past 3 months. Typically I changed the water once a month when I
> had some community fish in there and once the cichlids were
> really small. Today I decided to test for nitrates and switch to
> a biweekly water change. I had changed 25% two weeks ago. The
> nitrates were kind high so I decided to a more aggressive water
> change around 40% of the water, I used a python like I always do
> and filled the tank up with water close to temp as the tank. The
> thermometer did not register a temp change and the heater stayed
> up after it was full for maybe 3min I used a water treatment in
> the tank. immediately after this all my fish went to shock,
> sitting at the bottom of the tank still gasping for air.
> Couldn't understand what went wrong initially I thought they
> were just frightened because of the substrate vacuum etc.
>
> Two hours later still gasping and one already dead... I'm afraid
> they will be more!
>
> I am so mad right now.
>
> Any comments as to what might have gone wrong are very much
> appreciated.
>
> And just yesterday I was bragging about their colors and
> behavior to my wife, I screwed my self so bad.
>
> TIA
>
> Steve
>
>

Did you put in dechlorinator BEFORE you added water?
Meph

[Rick]

"Mephistopheles" > wrote in
message hlink.net...
> "SA" > wrote in
> :
>
> > I cannot believe I did this but I think I managed to kill an
> > entire tank of cichlids tonight. I am really bombed out about
> > it.
> >
> > I have a 45 gallon tank with some juveniles thriving for the
> > past 3 months. Typically I changed the water once a month when I
> > had some community fish in there and once the cichlids were
> > really small. Today I decided to test for nitrates and switch to
> > a biweekly water change. I had changed 25% two weeks ago. The
> > nitrates were kind high so I decided to a more aggressive water
> > change around 40% of the water, I used a python like I always do
> > and filled the tank up with water close to temp as the tank. The
> > thermometer did not register a temp change and the heater stayed
> > up after it was full for maybe 3min I used a water treatment in
> > the tank. immediately after this all my fish went to shock,
> > sitting at the bottom of the tank still gasping for air.
> > Couldn't understand what went wrong initially I thought they
> > were just frightened because of the substrate vacuum etc.
> >
> > Two hours later still gasping and one already dead... I'm afraid
> > they will be more!
> >
> > I am so mad right now.
> >
> > Any comments as to what might have gone wrong are very much
> > appreciated.
> >
> > And just yesterday I was bragging about their colors and
> > behavior to my wife, I screwed my self so bad.
> >
> > TIA
> >
> > Steve
> >
> >
>
> Did you put in dechlorinator BEFORE you added water?
> Meph


why would that be necessary?. As long as you add the dechlorinator to the
water it makes no difference if you do it before or during the process of
adding the tap water. I use a python and always add dechlorinator while
refilling and in 35 tanks I've never lost a fish during that process.
Something else is wrong here, gasping for air could be an ammonia spike but
why after a 40% water change?. Check with the water utility and make sure
they have not switched to chloramines.

Rick

[Dan J. S.]

SA wrote:
> I cannot believe I did this but I think I managed to kill an entire
> tank of cichlids tonight. I am really bombed out about it.
>
> I have a 45 gallon tank with some juveniles thriving for the past 3
> months. Typically I changed the water once a month when I had some
> community fish in there and once the cichlids were really small.
> Today I decided to test for nitrates and switch to a biweekly water
> change. I had changed 25% two weeks ago. The nitrates were kind high
> so I decided to a more aggressive water change around 40% of the
> water, I used a python like I always do and filled the tank up with
> water close to temp as the tank. The thermometer did not register a
> temp change and the heater stayed up after it was full for maybe 3min
> I used a water treatment in the tank. immediately after this all my
> fish went to shock, sitting at the bottom of the tank still gasping
> for air. Couldn't understand what went wrong initially I thought they
> were just frightened because of the substrate vacuum etc.
>
> Two hours later still gasping and one already dead... I'm afraid they
> will be more!
>
> I am so mad right now.
>
> Any comments as to what might have gone wrong are very much
> appreciated.
>
> And just yesterday I was bragging about their colors and behavior to
> my wife, I screwed my self so bad.
>
> TIA
>
> Steve

Use Amquel next time. It's the best friend to a Python system. Works quick,
and eliminates Nitrates and Ammonia.. nitrites too!!

[Jeff Dantzler]

Dan J. S. > wrote:

> Use Amquel next time. It's the best friend to a Python system. Works quick,
> and eliminates Nitrates and Ammonia.. nitrites too!!


Can you provide some support for the claim that Amquel
eliminates nitrates? Where do they go?

From:
http://www.novalek.com/kpd51.htm
"AmQuel quickly and effectively removes ammonia, chlorine and chloramines"

Please think before you post erroneous information.

Jeff Dantzler

[bannor]

http://www.novalek.com/kpd79.htm

2. A primary purpose in aquariums and ponds is to protect aquarium and
pond fishes and invertebrates by quickly eliminating (actually
detoxifying) the harmful components of the biological nitrogen cycle -
ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates without slowing the nitrogen cycle
(see KPD-64 "Biological Filtration"), or interfering with the
beneficial bacteria involved, or depriving these bacteria of their
food.

To control the toxic organic nitrogenous compounds of ammonia,
nitrite, and nitrate and other toxic organics that build up in
aquariums and ponds from the excretion of body wastes by fishes,
invertebrates, bacteria and other aquatic organisms start with a
Standard Dose (see definition above). This Standard Dose will remove
(detoxify) at least 1.2 mg/L (= approx.1,2 ppm) of all ammonia
compounds, at least 2.0 mg/L (=2.0 ppm) of nitrites, and at least 13
mg/L (=13 ppm) of nitrates. We recommend only one standard dose per 24
hour period. The removal of these compounds will happen within five
minutes, or slightly longer for ammonia at a higher pH above 7.5. It
is important to understand that the amounts of organic compounds
removed may vary with differing water conditions. The amounts
indicated above are the minimums that AmQuel will detoxify, and what
is removed may be up to several times higher. Use accurate test kits
to check how much of each compound is being removed when using
multiple doses (see the section in KPD-80 on "Water Quality Test Kits"
under "Problems When Using Water Conditioners..."). Be aware that test
strips may be insufficient to provide accurate readings; check liquid
and powder reagents to be sure that they are not out-of-date.

So, according to their own support page, Amquel + does handle 13 ppm
of nitrates.

On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 19:08:42 -0000, Jeff Dantzler
> wrote:

>Dan J. S. > wrote:
>
>> Use Amquel next time. It's the best friend to a Python system. Works quick,
>> and eliminates Nitrates and Ammonia.. nitrites too!!
>
>
>Can you provide some support for the claim that Amquel
>eliminates nitrates? Where do they go?
>
>From:
>http://www.novalek.com/kpd51.htm
>"AmQuel quickly and effectively removes ammonia, chlorine and chloramines"
>
>Please think before you post erroneous information.
>
>Jeff Dantzler

[Bitey]

Water heated up inside the tank or under pressure (your water heater)
may cause gas emboli in fishes' gills with the symptoms you describe.
This is a bigger problem in the winter when the cold tap water has
more dissolved gas and with larger water changes. Water should be
heated outside of the tank and at atmospheric pressure with some
agitation to help de-gas the water. I have a powerhead pump the water
several feet above the container with a heater and fall back into it.
After several hours I add the replacement water to the tank over the
course of several more hours.

If there were a significant number of bubbles forming, particularly on
your heater or anything else glass, then you may have experienced this
problem.

[SA]

Thank you all for your responses. They are really appreciated, as of now my
news are not so grim, I lost two fish. Last night after what happened I took
one of the Yellow Labs that was floating upside down by the filter intake
and put him in a small hospital tank. Today back from work the little fellow
seems to be recovered, he's swimming around the tank and seems a lot better.

I should have done the same with the other two but they were difficult to
catch and I didn't want to chase them around and stress them more. The one
is definitely gone, the second's gills are still moving but he looks bad, I
now have him in the hospital tank as well. I have read somewhere that
sometimes they come back even after they have stayed motionless for a while.
Not sure if there's any truth to that.

After reading your posts all day I realize that you all make some excellent
points.

I too was not certain as to whether or not it was ok to use the python to
fill the tank as opposed to a bucket of water that gets prepared first. But
I figured many people use their python to fill their tanks and I have in the
past also without an incident. I wasn't sure if adding the water treatment
was supposed to be before adding new water or during, I figured during would
be better.

The more I think of this the more Bitey's comment makes sense. At first I
thought it may have been pH shock to the fish that did it. But I was puzzled
indeed by the many little bubbles of air everywhere on the tank. On
decorations, glass, even on some fish. At that time I thought it was a good
thing thinking that I aerated the water stream enough when I was filling the
tank - I read somewhere that some of the chlorine escapes by having the
water come in under pressure and slash vigorously on the surface - in the
past I used to add water in a much slower rate.

I know think a pH shock should have come slower to the fish, but I'm
guessing here. I just checked the pH and it registers at typical levels, so
either it shifted in 24 hours time or it was ok to begin with. I was not
aware of "gas emboli" the way you described it one bit, but it almost sounds
like the 'bends' with divers. Is this a correct analogy? This is great
insight for all of us with tanks I think. I would have never thought of it.
The rest of the fish seem to be doing fine now in the tank. The pl*co did
not seemed phased at all but the cichlids felt it big time.

Will there be any future side effects from this ordeal in your estimation?
If I was to use a python to fill a tank is there a way to avoid this or
should I just skip to a water pump and a bucket?

Sorry for the long message but I feel that we all learned something here, I
certainly did and I thank you again all for your time.

Regards

Steve

[Rick]

"SA" > wrote in message
...
> Thank you all for your responses. They are really appreciated, as of now
my
> news are not so grim, I lost two fish. Last night after what happened I
took
> one of the Yellow Labs that was floating upside down by the filter intake
> and put him in a small hospital tank. Today back from work the little
fellow
> seems to be recovered, he's swimming around the tank and seems a lot
better.
>
> I should have done the same with the other two but they were difficult to
> catch and I didn't want to chase them around and stress them more. The one
> is definitely gone, the second's gills are still moving but he looks bad,
I
> now have him in the hospital tank as well. I have read somewhere that
> sometimes they come back even after they have stayed motionless for a
while.
> Not sure if there's any truth to that.
>
> After reading your posts all day I realize that you all make some
excellent
> points.
>
> I too was not certain as to whether or not it was ok to use the python to
> fill the tank as opposed to a bucket of water that gets prepared first.
But
> I figured many people use their python to fill their tanks and I have in
the
> past also without an incident. I wasn't sure if adding the water treatment
> was supposed to be before adding new water or during, I figured during
would
> be better.
>
> The more I think of this the more Bitey's comment makes sense. At first I
> thought it may have been pH shock to the fish that did it. But I was
puzzled
> indeed by the many little bubbles of air everywhere on the tank. On
> decorations, glass, even on some fish. At that time I thought it was a
good
> thing thinking that I aerated the water stream enough when I was filling
the
> tank - I read somewhere that some of the chlorine escapes by having the
> water come in under pressure and slash vigorously on the surface - in the
> past I used to add water in a much slower rate.
>
> I know think a pH shock should have come slower to the fish, but I'm
> guessing here. I just checked the pH and it registers at typical levels,
so
> either it shifted in 24 hours time or it was ok to begin with. I was not
> aware of "gas emboli" the way you described it one bit, but it almost
sounds
> like the 'bends' with divers. Is this a correct analogy? This is great
> insight for all of us with tanks I think. I would have never thought of
it.
> The rest of the fish seem to be doing fine now in the tank. The pl*co did
> not seemed phased at all but the cichlids felt it big time.
>
> Will there be any future side effects from this ordeal in your estimation?
> If I was to use a python to fill a tank is there a way to avoid this or
> should I just skip to a water pump and a bucket?
>
> Sorry for the long message but I feel that we all learned something here,
I
> certainly did and I thank you again all for your time.
>
> Regards
>
> Steve
>
>

I have water stored in my basement that I keep heated and agitated with an
airstone and this water I use in a lot of my tanks. My 77g tank upstairs and
my 50 g hex tank are both planted tanks that I use the Python on to do 50%
weekly water changes. When I am finished my tanks are full of bubbles, the
glass is covered, the plants are covered, everything is covered. I do this
week after week after week and have never lost a fish. I live in Canada and
the water does have more gas content than in summer however I have never
experienced a problem. However like everything in this hobby, YMMV.

Rick

[Dan J. S.]

Jeff Dantzler wrote:
> Dan J. S. > wrote:
>
>> Use Amquel next time. It's the best friend to a Python system. Works
>> quick, and eliminates Nitrates and Ammonia.. nitrites too!!
>
>
> Can you provide some support for the claim that Amquel
> eliminates nitrates? Where do they go?
>
> From:
> http://www.novalek.com/kpd51.htm
> "AmQuel quickly and effectively removes ammonia, chlorine and
> chloramines"
>
> Please think before you post erroneous information.
>
> Jeff Dantzler

Please practice what you preach!

http://www.novalek.com/kpd79.htm

[Jeff Dantzler]

Dan J. S. > wrote:
> Jeff Dantzler wrote:
> > Dan J. S. > wrote:
> >
> >> Use Amquel next time. It's the best friend to a Python system. Works
> >> quick, and eliminates Nitrates and Ammonia.. nitrites too!!

> Please practice what you preach!

> http://www.novalek.com/kpd79.htm

I may have jumped the gun on this one...

However--Dan refered to "Amquel", which from the link I cited
"Contains 100% sodium hydroxymethanesulfonate". This will do nothing
to combat high nitrite or nitrate. It is to deal with chloramine and
ammonia just as I asserted.

From http://www.novalek.com/kpd79.htm,
"As a general rule, when using tap water in which chlorine and chloramines
are present, but not nitrites, nitrates or other organics -- then it is
safe to use the less expensive AmQuel. If there is the possibility of
nitrites, nitrates and other organics being involved, then Amquel+ is
recommended."

Amquel+ is not what Dan refered to.

I was not aware of the newer Amquel+ and Dan may have in fact meant to
type Amquel+. Sorry for being too quick to criticize.

I am not a big fan of fancy products that magically make metabolites like
nitrite or nitrate "dissappear". I assure you the nitrogen is still in
the tank in one form or another.

The only way to get rid of the nitrogen is to do water changes, or to
drive enough photosynthesis that the excess nitrogen gets locked up in
plant biomass. You can also get fancy carbon or resin that will adsorb
nitrite or nitrate, but I personally am not interested in being locking
into buying such products on a monthly basis. Water changes are cheap.

Hope this clarifies.

Jeff Dantzler

[Mephistopheles]

"SA" > wrote in
:

[Snip]
> I too was not certain as to whether or not it was ok to use the
> python to fill the tank as opposed to a bucket of water that
> gets prepared first. But I figured many people use their python
> to fill their tanks and I have in the past also without an
> incident. I wasn't sure if adding the water treatment was
> supposed to be before adding new water or during, I figured
> during would be better.
>
[snip]

Steve,

In my experience, after reaching a certain threshold concentration,
chloramine, a chlorine derivative common in many public water
supplies, is instantly toxic to fish. Something in your post
suggested to me that you might have added dechlorinator (most such
products also neutralize chloramine) several minutes after
completing your water change -- a water change that was more than
usual. If that had happened, then there was a chance that you had
poisoned your fish with chloramine. (Smaller water changes might
not be enough to reach the toxic threshold, so you may never have
noticed this before). I know this can happen because I did it once,
when I was young and ignorant, to a tankful of Tanganyikans.
However, if you were adding dechlorinator at the same time as adding
water, then I would not think chloramine would be the explanation.

Regards,
Meph

[Bitey]

On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 20:21:03 -0600, "Rick" >
wrote:

>I have water stored in my basement that I keep heated and agitated with an
>airstone and this water I use in a lot of my tanks. My 77g tank upstairs and
>my 50 g hex tank are both planted tanks that I use the Python on to do 50%
>weekly water changes. When I am finished my tanks are full of bubbles, the
>glass is covered, the plants are covered, everything is covered. I do this
>week after week after week and have never lost a fish. I live in Canada and
>the water does have more gas content than in summer however I have never
>experienced a problem. However like everything in this hobby, YMMV.

You heat the water up first so that would lessen the problem.

When I did water changes in the summer, I would get a lot of bubbles,
too, but no problems. I think bubbles are a indicator of dissolved
gasses but the incoming water temperature determines the severity of
the problem.

In the winter, fish would be seen hyperventilating and hanging out at
the surface. If you do a water change, watch your fishes' respiratory
rate afterwards or better yet, during.

It took me awhile to realize what the problem was (I finally did a
Google newsgroup search). Search for gas bubble disease or gas emboli.
Since then, I've been heating the water outside the tank and creating
a waterfall with a powerhead. Then when I add the water hours later,
gradually, there are no bubbles and no hyperventilating. Cichlids are
pretty resistant to this but even they have limits. You might not
reach them in the summer but a slightly bigger water change on a
slightly colder day could do it.

[battlelance]

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 04:48:58 GMT, Mephistopheles
> wrote:

>However, if you were adding dechlorinator at the same time as adding
>water, then I would not think chloramine would be the explanation.

While we're on the subject of adding dechlorinator, would you add
enough to treat a full tank or only the water you are changing?

I've always added enough to treat the entire tank, even if it was a
30% water change. A buddy of mine asked me why I did that, and I
didn't have an answer - I -always- did it that way :)

[Rick]

"Bitey" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 20:21:03 -0600, "Rick" >
> wrote:
>
> >I have water stored in my basement that I keep heated and agitated with
an
> >airstone and this water I use in a lot of my tanks. My 77g tank upstairs
and
> >my 50 g hex tank are both planted tanks that I use the Python on to do
50%
> >weekly water changes. When I am finished my tanks are full of bubbles,
the
> >glass is covered, the plants are covered, everything is covered. I do
this
> >week after week after week and have never lost a fish. I live in Canada
and
> >the water does have more gas content than in summer however I have never
> >experienced a problem. However like everything in this hobby, YMMV.
>
> You heat the water up first so that would lessen the problem.
>
> When I did water changes in the summer, I would get a lot of bubbles,
> too, but no problems. I think bubbles are a indicator of dissolved
> gasses but the incoming water temperature determines the severity of
> the problem.
>
> In the winter, fish would be seen hyperventilating and hanging out at
> the surface. If you do a water change, watch your fishes' respiratory
> rate afterwards or better yet, during.
>
> It took me awhile to realize what the problem was (I finally did a
> Google newsgroup search). Search for gas bubble disease or gas emboli.
> Since then, I've been heating the water outside the tank and creating
> a waterfall with a powerhead. Then when I add the water hours later,
> gradually, there are no bubbles and no hyperventilating. Cichlids are
> pretty resistant to this but even they have limits. You might not
> reach them in the summer but a slightly bigger water change on a
> slightly colder day could do it.


the stored water is only because I have a R/O system in my house and I can't
stand the amount of waste water it takes to create a gallon of r/o water
which I use in a lot of my Corydoras tanks. I run a drain line to the
basement from the R/O system and can keep 3 large plastic garbage bins full
all the time. So seeing as how it is sitting there anyway I have a 200 watt
heater in one bin and an airstone and I simply move them from bin to bin as
I empty one or the other. I don't use any preheated and agitated water in my
upstairs tanks. The Hex contains angel fish and the 77 planted is a
community tank with loaches, bala sharks, platty's, cardinals, neon's,
Molly's etc and like I say I add directly from the python to the tank. Never
had a problem, no fish appear stressed at all. I also have Otto's in that
tank and they are very susceptible to change in water conditons and they
appear fine. Just my experience and my lack of problem certainly is not an
indication that someone else may not have one.

Rick

[Charlie Durand]

Do you live in the San Francisco Bay Area?

Cities that get their water from Hetch Hetchy added chloramines starting Feb
2.

I lost a tank of fish the hard way on this one.

You gotta remove the chloramines BEFORE they go in the tank. I had the same
question.

"SA" > wrote in message
...
> I cannot believe I did this but I think I managed to kill an entire tank
of
> cichlids tonight. I am really bombed out about it.
>
> I have a 45 gallon tank with some juveniles thriving for the past 3
months.
> Typically I changed the water once a month when I had some community fish
in
> there and once the cichlids were really small. Today I decided to test for
> nitrates and switch to a biweekly water change. I had changed 25% two
weeks
> ago. The nitrates were kind high so I decided to a more aggressive water
> change around 40% of the water, I used a python like I always do and
filled
> the tank up with water close to temp as the tank. The thermometer did not
> register a temp change and the heater stayed up after it was full for
maybe
> 3min I used a water treatment in the tank. immediately after this all my
> fish went to shock, sitting at the bottom of the tank still gasping for
air.
> Couldn't understand what went wrong initially I thought they were just
> frightened because of the substrate vacuum etc.
>
> Two hours later still gasping and one already dead... I'm afraid they will
> be more!
>
> I am so mad right now.
>
> Any comments as to what might have gone wrong are very much appreciated.
>
> And just yesterday I was bragging about their colors and behavior to my
> wife, I screwed my self so bad.
>
> TIA
>
> Steve
>
>

[shanefosster]

Water should be heating tanks and a number of outside pressure in the atmosphere help to the air-water mixing. I have a powerhead water pump A few feet above the container, heater and down to it. After several hours, I added the water tank replacement of course, a few hours.

[nelssoncraigg]

As continued as you add the dechlorinator to the water it makes no aberration if you do it afore or during the action of adding the tap water. I use a python and consistently add dechlorinates while refilling and in 35 tanks I've never absent a angle during that process.