Julidochromis ornatus: inbred?

[Tjaard de Vries]

first of all, perhaps I'm going to try and keep a couple of these fish in
a 50l tank (I'm doing things metric, just to be clear :)), if you think
that's a bad idea, please say so.

but there's a thing I wonder about: inbreeding. I've got a book by Pierre
Brichard about the cichlids in Lake Tanganyika (german edition, "Das
grosse Buch der Tanganyikacichliden, 1992), and it outlined the history of
the species in aquaria. it seems that at that time ('92), the species
suffered from inbreeding because they were all descendants of very few
specimens caught in the fifties and that at that time, importing had just
started again.

the thing I wonder about is this: how is the situation now, are there now
better specimens available? I don't necessarily need wild caught fish, but
I'd hate to have fish that are degenerated due to human intervention, as
the book was written in '92, I wondered whether the situation has changed,
for fish in general and J. ornatus in particular.

[Pisidan]

I have 7 ornatus and they r great curious and I see no problems in them at
all good luck


"Tjaard de Vries" > wrote in message
...
> first of all, perhaps I'm going to try and keep a couple of these fish in
> a 50l tank (I'm doing things metric, just to be clear :)), if you think
> that's a bad idea, please say so.
>
> but there's a thing I wonder about: inbreeding. I've got a book by Pierre
> Brichard about the cichlids in Lake Tanganyika (german edition, "Das
> grosse Buch der Tanganyikacichliden, 1992), and it outlined the history of
> the species in aquaria. it seems that at that time ('92), the species
> suffered from inbreeding because they were all descendants of very few
> specimens caught in the fifties and that at that time, importing had just
> started again.
>
> the thing I wonder about is this: how is the situation now, are there now
> better specimens available? I don't necessarily need wild caught fish, but
> I'd hate to have fish that are degenerated due to human intervention, as
> the book was written in '92, I wondered whether the situation has changed,
> for fish in general and J. ornatus in particular.
>

[[email protected]]

On Mon, 08 Mar 2004 22:33:23 +0100, Tjaard de Vries
> wrote:



>
>the thing I wonder about is this: how is the situation now, are there now
>better specimens available? I don't necessarily need wild caught fish, but
>I'd hate to have fish that are degenerated due to human intervention, as
>the book was written in '92, I wondered whether the situation has changed,
>for fish in general and J. ornatus in particular.

I bought five wild J.ornatus in the mid seventies but have not seen
any since. A few of the other Julidochromis have been imported but
ornatus seem to be very rare.


Steve
--
EasyNN-plus. The easy way to build neural networks.
Build networks from numeric, text and image files.
http://www.easynn.com

[Amateur]

Recently, in the past ten years, the exporting from Lake Tanganyika has picked
up significantly. Many fish that were hard to obtain in '92 are readily
available today. Amazing with the airport being a 16 hour ride from the Lake.
Within the past couple years, many small collectors are popping up around the
lake where in the past most of the collecting was done by a few select groups.
Things that'll remain rare and expensive are those fish that take a long time to
collect. (Frontosa, B. tricotti and other deep water fish), fish that are
sensitive and difficult to ship (Most of the featherfins) and fish that have
been collected to near extinction such as the Ophthalmotilapia boops "neon
streak" from Nkondwe and certain Tropheus species like the T. moorii found at
Ilangi.
AC

[Cichlidiot]

Tjaard de Vries > wrote:
> the thing I wonder about is this: how is the situation now, are there now
> better specimens available? I don't necessarily need wild caught fish, but
> I'd hate to have fish that are degenerated due to human intervention, as
> the book was written in '92, I wondered whether the situation has changed,
> for fish in general and J. ornatus in particular.

Well, just checked a few online Tanganyikan dealers I know of and Armke's
has F1 J. ornatus for sale. There's also the albino ornatus at a couple of
places. You might be able to find more if you search around a little.

[T]

"Cichlidiot" > wrote in message
...
> Tjaard de Vries > wrote:
> > the thing I wonder about is this: how is the situation now, are there
now
> > better specimens available? I don't necessarily need wild caught fish,
but
> > I'd hate to have fish that are degenerated due to human intervention, as
> > the book was written in '92, I wondered whether the situation has
changed,
> > for fish in general and J. ornatus in particular.
>
> Well, just checked a few online Tanganyikan dealers I know of and Armke's
> has F1 J. ornatus for sale. There's also the albino ornatus at a couple of
> places. You might be able to find more if you search around a little.

Try AquaBid.. There might be some there for sale.. I see the F1 denotation
once in a while there on some of the fish.. Good Luck...

Tim...

[Tjaard de Vries]

On Mon, 08 Mar 2004 23:31:10 +0000, Amateur wrote:

> Within the past couple years, many small collectors are popping up around the
> lake where in the past most of the collecting was done by a few select
> groups.

hmm, I hope that these collectors know what they're doing... I'd hate to
see the fish in the lake getting jeopardized because of some greedy thugs
who like to make money with expensive fish :( ...

[Tjaard de Vries]

On Mon, 08 Mar 2004 23:22:24 +0000, steve wrote:

> I bought five wild J.ornatus in the mid seventies but have not seen
> any since. A few of the other Julidochromis have been imported but
> ornatus seem to be very rare.

hm, are you from the UK? (judging from the time zone). I'll do some
investigation concerning ornatus in shops, regani or marlieri are not done
in this tiny tank, but transcriptus or dickfeldi perhaps...?

anyways, I'll try to get some fine ornatus, the book I mentioned earlier
said that inbred specimens are recognizable by the fact their bands aren't
smooth bands anymore.

[Tjaard de Vries]

On Tue, 09 Mar 2004 00:31:01 +0000, Cichlidiot wrote:

> Well, just checked a few online Tanganyikan dealers I know of and Armke's
> has F1 J. ornatus for sale. There's also the albino ornatus at a couple of
> places. You might be able to find more if you search around a little.

online dealers :S ?

hm, I live in the Netherlands, there are some nice shops around here, but
this F1 thing:

I remember something about genetics in biology class, is the F1 from: P:
parentes (wild caught in this case), F1: filii 1 (the first generation
descendants of P)?
I'm always afraid that the fish in a store of a species in a tank are all
siblings... :( .

[Fishman]

"Tjaard de Vries" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 08 Mar 2004 23:31:10 +0000, Amateur wrote:
>
> > Within the past couple years, many small collectors are popping up
around the
> > lake where in the past most of the collecting was done by a few select
> > groups.
>
> hmm, I hope that these collectors know what they're doing... I'd hate to
> see the fish in the lake getting jeopardized because of some greedy thugs
> who like to make money with expensive fish :( ...
>

Any collector around the lake won't compete with the quantity the 1000's of
locals catch for food!

[[email protected]]

On Tue, 09 Mar 2004 15:18:39 +0100, Tjaard de Vries
> wrote:

>On Mon, 08 Mar 2004 23:22:24 +0000, steve wrote:
>
>> I bought five wild J.ornatus in the mid seventies but have not seen
>> any since. A few of the other Julidochromis have been imported but
>> ornatus seem to be very rare.
>
>hm, are you from the UK? (judging from the time zone). I'll do some
>investigation concerning ornatus in shops, regani or marlieri are not done
>in this tiny tank, but transcriptus or dickfeldi perhaps...?
>

I am in the UK.

>anyways, I'll try to get some fine ornatus, the book I mentioned earlier
>said that inbred specimens are recognizable by the fact their bands aren't
>smooth bands anymore.

Unfortunately I am no longer physically capable of hunting around the
shops. My brother is still very active in the hobby. He tells me that
most of the UK "wild" stock now comes here via Holland. When I was
more active Tanganyika cichlids were shipped direct to London or
Manchester.

The last ornatus I saw for sale looked as if they were hybrids
(dickfeldi - ish). The only ornatus I have seen with regular bands
were wild ones. Tank bred ones get a bit fuzzy around the edges.

Steve

[Tjaard de Vries]

On Tue, 09 Mar 2004 14:28:41 +0000, Fishman wrote:

> Any collector around the lake won't compete with the quantity the 1000's of
> locals catch for food!

hm, you've got a point there... I figure that there are too few
cichlidiots around the world to make it a threat then... however, I can
imagine that there are some malevolent people who try make quick money by
catching huge amounts of fish.

ah, well...

speaking of food... I believe that lake victoria's ecosystem was destroyed
by a nice man who wanted to help the locals because the fish present in
the lake were too bony...

[Tjaard de Vries]

On Tue, 09 Mar 2004 15:09:48 +0000, steve wrote:

> Unfortunately I am no longer physically capable of hunting around the
> shops. My brother is still very active in the hobby. He tells me that
> most of the UK "wild" stock now comes here via Holland. When I was
> more active Tanganyika cichlids were shipped direct to London or
> Manchester.

hey, I live in the Netherlands, could you ask for more details :) ?

> The last ornatus I saw for sale looked as if they were hybrids
> (dickfeldi - ish). The only ornatus I have seen with regular bands
> were wild ones. Tank bred ones get a bit fuzzy around the edges.

that fuzzy stuff... I meant that when I mentioned the bands, sorry...

[[email protected]]

On Tue, 09 Mar 2004 16:12:20 +0100, Tjaard de Vries
> wrote:


>
>speaking of food... I believe that lake victoria's ecosystem was destroyed
>by a nice man who wanted to help the locals because the fish present in
>the lake were too bony...

Introduced predators have reduced many of the Lake Victoria cichlids
to a very low level but, apparently, a few species are adapting.

A few years ago I was helping to train a programmer from Uganda. She
lived close to the lake and described the introduced plant problem
very well. "It's green all the way to the horizon".

[[email protected]]

On Tue, 09 Mar 2004 18:22:38 +0100, Tjaard de Vries
> wrote:

>On Tue, 09 Mar 2004 15:09:48 +0000, steve wrote:
>
>> Unfortunately I am no longer physically capable of hunting around the
>> shops. My brother is still very active in the hobby. He tells me that
>> most of the UK "wild" stock now comes here via Holland. When I was
>> more active Tanganyika cichlids were shipped direct to London or
>> Manchester.
>
>hey, I live in the Netherlands, could you ask for more details :) ?
>

That's why I was telling you where the UK stock came from. I was
thinking you would already know where the importer was in your
country. I would expect your shops will get their stock from the same
place. Maybe it's a secret!

I'll ask my brother for the importers name the next time I see him.
That's not very often so don't hold you breath.

Steve

[Cichlidiot]

Tjaard de Vries > wrote:
> On Tue, 09 Mar 2004 00:31:01 +0000, Cichlidiot wrote:

>> Well, just checked a few online Tanganyikan dealers I know of and Armke's
>> has F1 J. ornatus for sale. There's also the albino ornatus at a couple of
>> places. You might be able to find more if you search around a little.

> online dealers :S ?

> hm, I live in the Netherlands, there are some nice shops around here, but
> this F1 thing:

> I remember something about genetics in biology class, is the F1 from: P:
> parentes (wild caught in this case), F1: filii 1 (the first generation
> descendants of P)?
> I'm always afraid that the fish in a store of a species in a tank are all
> siblings... :( .

F1 does mean spawn of wild caught fish, however, you don't always get
siblings in a tank of F1s. For example, I have three sets of F1 Neolamp.
similis from different pairings, two of almost identical age. Two groups
have the same mother and different fathers. The third group is from the
other female and a third male. So I could sell them all locally as F1
similis, but they would not all be related. Likewise, if you deal directly
with a breeder, you can see if they have different spawning pairs and
request fry from different pairs if you are concerned about genetic
diversity. As long as it doesn't put an undue workload on the breeder of
course. Key thing is to establish relationships with the breeders by
talking with them. Even if they don't have multiple pairs or spawns, they
may know of other breeders and could help you get in contact with them.

[Amateur]

"Fishman" > wrote in message
...
> Any collector around the lake won't compete with the quantity the 1000's of
> locals catch for food!
>
>

That may be true in some of the species. But the fishermen typically stick to
the larger species for food or species that they can collect in quantity.
Feather fins don't offer much in the way of meat. I saw more catfish being
caught. The Boulengerochromis and various large catfish were also popular along
with the perch.
I'm afraid with species like the afore mentioned Tropheus and Ophthalmotilapia
boops "neon streak", the collectors are the ones responsible for decimating the
populations. Not all the collectors, but it only really takes one.
AC

[Fishman]

Fair comment although I can't imagine any of the food fisherman returning
anything edible back to the lake - rare or not.

Arn't the exporting fish collectors licenced (as they are on Lake Malawi) or
is it country dependant / not enforced.
If so the licencing authorities ought to restrict / ban the export of
threatened species.

[Amateur]

"Fishman" > wrote in message
...
> Fair comment although I can't imagine any of the food fisherman returning
> anything edible back to the lake - rare or not.
>
> Arn't the exporting fish collectors licenced (as they are on Lake Malawi) or
> is it country dependant / not enforced.
> If so the licencing authorities ought to restrict / ban the export of
> threatened species.
>
>

True enough. Anything caught is most likely eaten. And the gill nets due a fair
job of killing some fish. Mostly the large Petrochromis. They've done a good job
on the Cyathopharynx population in one area I saw.
The collectors are licensed, although it's more so the government gets there cut
of the fundage more than a means to restrict what's collected. The ACA and
people like Paul Loiselle I believe are working on trying to protect species
that are threatened. You may find some more info on their site.
AC