gunk in the sand, need advice

[Rodney]

I made the switch from gravel to sand and thought that my tank was cleaner,
but when I started sifting through the sand today there was a lot of gunk in
the sand. I have a relatively think layer of sand and the main reason for
the sand is for the plants.

I use a gravel sucker to clean the sand bi-weekly (I used to clean weekly
with the gravel), but it appears that the switch to sand did not help.

Besides going to a bare bottom tank, are there any other alternatives (more
frequent water changes, chemicals)? I've been wondering what the reason was
for my fish getting sick. Could it be because of the gunk?

I'm getting some new fish in a couple of days and want to make sure
everything is clean for them.

[Poe Lim]

"Rodney" > wrote in message
om...

> I made the switch from gravel to sand and thought that my tank was
cleaner,
> but when I started sifting through the sand today there was a lot of gunk
in
> the sand. I have a relatively think layer of sand and the main reason for
> the sand is for the plants.

Just my personal view...

You were partly on the right track by having plants; then you went wrong by
having sand. Why? Sand compacts, and with mulm as the mortar, forms an
impermeable layer that become anaerobic. When disturb, it releases toxins
into the water. You should stick with a thick (2+ inches) of gravel (1-3mm
in size), and grow plenty of hardy plants, such as Crypts, Vals, Elodea,
Java Ferns and Water Sprites. Then don't bother cleaning the gravel, ever;
the mulm provides nutrition to the Vals and Crypts, a little to the Elodea,
and the whole lot takes N out of the water, and puts O2 into it during
daylight hours (enough such that at night, there is more than sufficient for
all).

Haven't had to clean my gravel in over a year, and with algae eaters and
correct balance of fertilisers, little algae (I haven't scrubbed the glass
in nearly a year). My GF are healthy and active, and greedy as anything, and
are now in need of a new home soon as they have doubled in size in the past
year.

My other tank is a 75g tropical tank, recently set up, with hight light, CO2
and substrate fertilised. It has one big problem; not enough N (Ammonia,
Nitrite and Nitrate all tests 0). It has never been cycled, just heavily
planted from the start, and all the plants suck up the N before it gets a
chance to become toxic. Did have a bacterial bloom at the 5 week mark (so
yes, the bio-bugs are there) when I added the final 18 1" tetras.

So if you have enough plants that are root feeders, and the GF don't eat
them all, then you should never have a problem with your substrate or water
quality.

Cheers,
Poe

[[email protected]]

you may be having good luck, but gravel is not recommended for GF, neither are fish
like algae eaters nor adding fertilizers. it is a very precarious balancing act as
gravel accumulates mulm and goes toxic as you describe for sand. Ingrid

>You were partly on the right track by having plants; then you went wrong by
>having sand. Why? Sand compacts, and with mulm as the mortar, forms an
>impermeable layer that become anaerobic. When disturb, it releases toxins
>into the water. You should stick with a thick (2+ inches) of gravel (1-3mm
>in size), and grow plenty of hardy plants, such as Crypts, Vals, Elodea,
>Java Ferns and Water Sprites. Then don't bother cleaning the gravel, ever;
>the mulm provides nutrition to the Vals and Crypts, a little to the Elodea,
>and the whole lot takes N out of the water, and puts O2 into it during
>daylight hours (enough such that at night, there is more than sufficient for
>all).
>
>Haven't had to clean my gravel in over a year, and with algae eaters and
>correct balance of fertilisers, little algae (I haven't scrubbed the glass
>in nearly a year). My GF are healthy and active, and greedy as anything, and
>are now in need of a new home soon as they have doubled in size in the past
>year.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

what are your water quality parameters, ammonia, nitrites, nitrates and pH?
you are going to quarantine your new fish, right? Add new fish to established tank
and older fish are very likely to get sick and/or die.
Ingrid

"Rodney" > wrote:

>I made the switch from gravel to sand and thought that my tank was cleaner,
>but when I started sifting through the sand today there was a lot of gunk in
>the sand. I have a relatively think layer of sand and the main reason for
>the sand is for the plants.
>
>I use a gravel sucker to clean the sand bi-weekly (I used to clean weekly
>with the gravel), but it appears that the switch to sand did not help.
>
>Besides going to a bare bottom tank, are there any other alternatives (more
>frequent water changes, chemicals)? I've been wondering what the reason was
>for my fish getting sick. Could it be because of the gunk?
>
>I'm getting some new fish in a couple of days and want to make sure
>everything is clean for them.
>
>



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Gunther]

In article >,
says...
> OK, as a newbie to this group I'm confused. Where can I find the
> reasons, or at least the logical arguments, for sand vs gravel? I did
> the google on this group and I read the 3 books on goldfish at our
> library (they all say use gravel, but don't even mention sand).
>
> I'm beginning to think it's a "religious" issue :-). Help!

You're undoubtedly on the right track there.
I know of no other source of information on it beyond anecdotal
that you can find in the archives for this newsgroup:
http://groups.google.com, then type
"freshwater aquarium" sand substrate
into the text box. I just did that and got 97 hits, several of
which lead to good reading.

IMO:
With sand, organic wastes tend to sit on the surface rather
than fall down into the spaces as with gravel. This allows
more time for the fish to try eating it again and again.
As it's spit out in smaller and smaller pieces, eventually
your filter intake will pick it up.
The finer the sand used the better in that respect: smaller
spaces between the grains.
Bonus: sand grains cannot get lodged in the fishes' throat.
They will happily root through the sand all day in search of
tidbits, spitting the sand out or "blowing" it aside.

As with gravel, however, you must vacuum from time to time,
and you must dig down to oxygenate the lower layers.
I find that a medium-grain sand can be treated the same as
gravel in that respect: shove the siphon tube in, let the
substrate start to flow up, back off and/or pinch the tube
to slow the siphon until it falls back down.

Actually, if you have less than 1/2" deep sand, the fish
will keep things stirred up enough to make this "anaerobic
toxins" thing we hear about a non-issue AFAICT.

If you're _really_ worried about it, stick with a bare
bottom tank, either with or without large (unswallowable)
river rock and glass marbles for decoration.

BTW, note that I have no (zero, none, nada!) scientific
data to back up any of this. I only know that I have
three tanks with sand instead of gravel, and that making
the change made my life simpler, my tanks better looking,
and brought untold amounts of good fortune my way.
Break the chain at your own risk.....

Gunther

[Poe Lim]

I guess so, with both my GF tanks. <g>

I suspect the failure is due to most GF tank not being heavily planted, as
GF are notorious for tearing up plants, and unless you have many plants, the
system I outlined will not work. The gravel size is small enough that it
will not stick in the GF's mouth, but large enough to provide circulation
through the substrate.

Cheers,
Poe

> wrote in message
...

> you may be having good luck, but gravel is not recommended for GF, neither
are fish
> like algae eaters nor adding fertilizers. it is a very precarious
balancing act as
> gravel accumulates mulm and goes toxic as you describe for sand. Ingrid

[Geezer From The Freezer]

Poe,

I agree, plastic plants for a fish aquarium are a waste of time.

I buy real plants - they get destroyed very quickly, but hey
at least the fish have something to do.
I clean the plant debris quickly too and replace every 2-3 weeks.

[Donald Kerns]

Poe Lim wrote:

> My other tank is a 75g tropical tank, recently set up, with hight
> light, CO2 and substrate fertilised. It has one big problem; not
> enough N (Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate all tests 0).

My tub garden (with no substrate at all) reads a consistent 0/0/0.

It's got anachris, duckweed and a hyacinth (plus the green water). Only
time I've seen a hyacinth get out competed...

For 2 3" goldfish.

Woe to any flying insect that gets within a 1/2 inch of the surface.
Bummer that it is the only open water in 50 yards or so, eh? I'd put up
a bat house except I wouldn't want the fish to starve... ;-)

I would imagine that my biggest problem is "salt creep" because I lose
an inch or two every week due to evaporation...

-Donald
--
"There is nothing so strong as gentleness, and there is nothing so
gentle as real strength." St. Francis de Sales

[BErney1014]

>I have a relatively think layer of sand

Thick sand will compact in time and could very well hold detris, however for
plants that's normal and desired. If you want a substrate the fish will keep
clean it needs to be loose.

[[email protected]]

in the olden days the only type of filter was an undergravel filter (UGF). Now there
are hang on the back and cannister filters. gravel has some inherent problems.
http://users.megapathdsl.net/~solo/puregold/care/care1.htm#GRAVEL
Ingrid

Larry Blanchard > wrote:
>OK, as a newbie to this group I'm confused. Where can I find the
>reasons, or at least the logical arguments, for sand vs gravel? I did
>the google on this group and I read the 3 books on goldfish at our
>library (they all say use gravel, but don't even mention sand).


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Poe Lim]

> wrote in message
...

> in the olden days the only type of filter was an undergravel filter (UGF).
Now there
> are hang on the back and cannister filters. gravel has some inherent
problems.
> http://users.megapathdsl.net/~solo/puregold/care/care1.htm#GRAVEL

Not if the tank is planted; I did a search on the recommendation, and at no
time was there any suggestion that the tank is anything more than a bare
tank with gravel in the bottom, in which case I fully agree with the
recommendation in the guide to not use gravel. In my unplanted (except for
some Java Fern I transfer across from the main tank) quarantine tank, it's a
bare bottom as well. FWIW, GF turns over gravel very well looking for food
(which was a PITA when first trying to plant a tank); do not use those so
large that they will become lodged in their mouths (which the 1-3mm one
should not, unless very small GF).

In this case we have to agree to disagree; I believe GF are less stressed,
more happy and healthy in a well planted tank, which necessitates gravel.
You believe in a bare tank for GF as being healthier.

Cheers,
Poe

[[email protected]]

gravel accumulates rotting organic matter. this can tox the fish out when they
disturb it. plants dont need gravel, they can be attached with suction cups, they
can be planted into weighted clay pots using polyester batting. Ingrid

"Poe Lim" > wrote:
>In this case we have to agree to disagree; I believe GF are less stressed,
>more happy and healthy in a well planted tank, which necessitates gravel.
>You believe in a bare tank for GF as being healthier.
>
>Cheers,
>Poe
>



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[BErney1014]

believe GF are less stressed,
>more happy and healthy in a well planted tank, which necessitates gravel.
>You believe in a bare tank for GF as being healthier.

You are right, they are healthier in a planted tank because the environment is
less stressful aside from the better water quality in a planted tank.
I have a planted tank without a filter, except for a UGF, that has been running
for over 4 years. I have to pull out the extra plants and give them away all
the time. The fish are happy with SAE tankmates and a herd of trumpet snails in
the gravel (fluorite).

[Nona]

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 15:28:53 GMT, wrote:

>gravel accumulates rotting organic matter. this can tox the fish out when they
>disturb it. plants dont need gravel, they can be attached with suction cups, they
>can be planted into weighted clay pots using polyester batting. Ingrid
>

Ingrid, can you describe this weighted clay pots further? Are you
talking about small clay pots for plants found in garden centers?
I've been worried using one thinking it may be toxic. Does the
polyester batting get stuffed into pots and what's it's purpose?

I've tried plants but my GF are quite large and very active that they
just pull everything out when I used suction cups and did not work
well for me. I would really like to provide them some plants though.


Nona (another foodie and hapa)

[Geezer From The Freezer]

I used the plastic pots and weight the plants down with gravel and sand.
Doesn't work that well but is better than planting into the substrate.

[[email protected]]

http://users.megapathdsl.net/~solo/puregold/care/plants.html

>Ingrid, can you describe this weighted clay pots further?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Mike Edwardes]

"Poe Lim" > wrote in message >...

> http://mike-edwardes.members.beeb.net/Cauratus.html (an example of planted
> GF tank, not to my taste though)

Interesting! Mind if I ask why not?

Mike.
--
Mike Edwardes Tropicals
http://mike-edwardes.members.beeb.net