Water req per goldfish

[Gunther]

Just to stir up an old argument again,
I thought I'd mention this.
The current issue of "Aquarium USA 2004",
an annual "buyer's guide" type magazine usually
found at the checkout stands at PetCo, et al,
has an article about goldfish.
Among some wise pieces of info (e.g. goldfish are
_not_ for beginners, and are more challenging than
most tropicals, etc) is the recommendation that
since water quality is the #1 issue, goldfish
should be given 20-30 gallons per adult fish.

In thinking about it, I actually think this is
wise, if by adult fish you mean really good-sized
specimens, say 6"+. My 55 would be just right for
a couple of big bruisers, but can you imagine how
silly I'd have felt last year this time with only
two little 2" guys in it.... If I had it to do over
again, I like to think I'd do it that way, but I suspect
I wouldn't. But right now I've got five fairly good
sized fish (5-6") in that 55, and it does require effort to
stay on top of water quality issues.

Gunther

[Craig]

Gunther > wrote in message >...
> Just to stir up an old argument again,
> I thought I'd mention this.
> The current issue of "Aquarium USA 2004",
> an annual "buyer's guide" type magazine usually
> found at the checkout stands at PetCo, et al,
> has an article about goldfish.
> Among some wise pieces of info (e.g. goldfish are
> _not_ for beginners, and are more challenging than
> most tropicals, etc) is the recommendation that
> since water quality is the #1 issue, goldfish
> should be given 20-30 gallons per adult fish.
>
> In thinking about it, I actually think this is
> wise, if by adult fish you mean really good-sized
> specimens, say 6"+. My 55 would be just right for
> a couple of big bruisers, but can you imagine how
> silly I'd have felt last year this time with only
> two little 2" guys in it.... If I had it to do over
> again, I like to think I'd do it that way, but I suspect
> I wouldn't. But right now I've got five fairly good
> sized fish (5-6") in that 55, and it does require effort to
> stay on top of water quality issues.

Interesting. That probably blows most of the casual GF owners out of the water.
Not too many small houses can take a 55g tank, especially mine.
Wonder if the Petco people mention the gallon per fish issue when selling GF?
They sure have a lot of small tanks around the place....

Craig
>

[Kodiak]

I heard 5 gallons for every inch of fish but I think that's for multiple
small fish, I don't think you can do
a linear extrapolation of that for large fish. When my Comet reached 4
inches,
It became impossible to maintain water quality, I had to take him out of a
20gal and into a 33gal.
When he reached 7" I could no longer keep him in the 33gal, I was changing
water every 2 days.
I managed to go like that for almost a year, now he's 9" and in a 90gal, and
i'm afraid to have another
one in there with him.

On top of that someone told me yesterday that during the summer months the
water gets too warm
and Goldfish especially, produce alot of Mucous and slime wich aggravates
the water situation even more,
I have alot of problems keeping the nitrates down in the summer. Is it true
about the Mucous and the warm
weather?

Best regards... Kodiak.



"Gunther" > wrote in message
t...
> Just to stir up an old argument again,
> I thought I'd mention this.
> The current issue of "Aquarium USA 2004",
> an annual "buyer's guide" type magazine usually
> found at the checkout stands at PetCo, et al,
> has an article about goldfish.
> Among some wise pieces of info (e.g. goldfish are
> _not_ for beginners, and are more challenging than
> most tropicals, etc) is the recommendation that
> since water quality is the #1 issue, goldfish
> should be given 20-30 gallons per adult fish.
>
> In thinking about it, I actually think this is
> wise, if by adult fish you mean really good-sized
> specimens, say 6"+. My 55 would be just right for
> a couple of big bruisers, but can you imagine how
> silly I'd have felt last year this time with only
> two little 2" guys in it.... If I had it to do over
> again, I like to think I'd do it that way, but I suspect
> I wouldn't. But right now I've got five fairly good
> sized fish (5-6") in that 55, and it does require effort to
> stay on top of water quality issues.
>
> Gunther
>

[Gunther]

In article >, crw59
@earthlink.net says...
> Gunther > wrote in message >...
> > Just to stir up an old argument again,
> > I thought I'd mention this.
> > The current issue of "Aquarium USA 2004",
> > an annual "buyer's guide" type magazine usually
> > found at the checkout stands at PetCo, et al,
> > has an article about goldfish.
> > Among some wise pieces of info (e.g. goldfish are
> > _not_ for beginners, and are more challenging than
> > most tropicals, etc) is the recommendation that
> > since water quality is the #1 issue, goldfish
> > should be given 20-30 gallons per adult fish.
> >
> > In thinking about it, I actually think this is
> > wise, if by adult fish you mean really good-sized
> > specimens, say 6"+. My 55 would be just right for
> > a couple of big bruisers, but can you imagine how
> > silly I'd have felt last year this time with only
> > two little 2" guys in it.... If I had it to do over
> > again, I like to think I'd do it that way, but I suspect
> > I wouldn't. But right now I've got five fairly good
> > sized fish (5-6") in that 55, and it does require effort to
> > stay on top of water quality issues.
>
> Interesting. That probably blows most of the casual GF owners out of the water.
> Not too many small houses can take a 55g tank, especially mine.
> Wonder if the Petco people mention the gallon per fish issue when selling GF?
> They sure have a lot of small tanks around the place....

I've often wondered about that, but then Petco is not noted for
their super-healthy goldfish, are they?
There's a large brick-n-mortar PetSmart store in my area,
on the other hand, who have just as many tanks, but their
fish look much healthier.
I suspect that large retail stores may have what appears to
be 50 or more 10G tanks, but in fact the water system behaves
more like the aggregate size of 500G, and they move a lot of
water through the tanks. They may also employ hardware you and I
can't afford.

Another magazine article I read recently noted that in the
wild, water quality issues are normally made moot by natural
water changes: consider a small stream, say average WxD of
2'X6" and with a surface flow-rate of 1 foot/sec. That's
a flow rate of 1 cu.ft. per second. In a 20 gallon
aquarium, that's equivalent to a 50% PWC EACH SECOND.

[Gunther]

In article >,
says...
> I heard 5 gallons for every inch of fish but I think that's for multiple
> small fish, I don't think you can do
> a linear extrapolation of that for large fish. When my Comet reached 4
> inches,
> It became impossible to maintain water quality, I had to take him out of a
> 20gal and into a 33gal.
> When he reached 7" I could no longer keep him in the 33gal, I was changing
> water every 2 days.
> I managed to go like that for almost a year, now he's 9" and in a 90gal, and
> i'm afraid to have another
> one in there with him.

I wish you'd chime in with this anecdote more often around here.
Convincing newbies that they can't jam 5 goldfish into a
2 gallon bowl (or even a 10G tank) and expect great results
is a frequent task in this newsgroup.
Maybe it's time for you to consider ponding as a hobby?

>
> On top of that someone told me yesterday that during the summer months the
> water gets too warm
> and Goldfish especially, produce alot of Mucous and slime wich aggravates
> the water situation even more,
> I have alot of problems keeping the nitrates down in the summer. Is it true
> about the Mucous and the warm
> weather?

I can't speak to the mucus/slime situation, but warm water
does increase their metabolism, hence their food requirements,
hence their waste output, hence (ultimately) the nitrate levels.
(BTW, all the more reason to ensure good aeration in summer:
the bacteria are aerobic and are working harder.)

Gunther

[Kodiak]

It's never enough Gunther....
After the pond gets too small I'll be looking hard at my swimming pool...
....;)

Speaking of keeping Nitrates down, Ingrid just mentioned in another post,
even after battling with gravel
siphoning and water changes, eventually you lose the war, after 6 months
you need to strip down the tank
(when nitrates just won't go down anymore).

Good chatting with you guys, I was a newbie for 29 years before I signed up
to this newsgroup.

....Kodiak.

"Gunther" > wrote in message
t...
> In article >,
> says...
> > I heard 5 gallons for every inch of fish but I think that's for multiple
> > small fish, I don't think you can do
> > a linear extrapolation of that for large fish. When my Comet reached 4
> > inches,
> > It became impossible to maintain water quality, I had to take him out of
a
> > 20gal and into a 33gal.
> > When he reached 7" I could no longer keep him in the 33gal, I was
changing
> > water every 2 days.
> > I managed to go like that for almost a year, now he's 9" and in a 90gal,
and
> > i'm afraid to have another
> > one in there with him.
>
> I wish you'd chime in with this anecdote more often around here.
> Convincing newbies that they can't jam 5 goldfish into a
> 2 gallon bowl (or even a 10G tank) and expect great results
> is a frequent task in this newsgroup.
> Maybe it's time for you to consider ponding as a hobby?
>
> >
> > On top of that someone told me yesterday that during the summer months
the
> > water gets too warm
> > and Goldfish especially, produce alot of Mucous and slime wich
aggravates
> > the water situation even more,
> > I have alot of problems keeping the nitrates down in the summer. Is it
true
> > about the Mucous and the warm
> > weather?
>
> I can't speak to the mucus/slime situation, but warm water
> does increase their metabolism, hence their food requirements,
> hence their waste output, hence (ultimately) the nitrate levels.
> (BTW, all the more reason to ensure good aeration in summer:
> the bacteria are aerobic and are working harder.)
>
> Gunther
>

[Craig]

>
> I wish you'd chime in with this anecdote more often around here.
> Convincing newbies that they can't jam 5 goldfish into a
> 2 gallon bowl (or even a 10G tank) and expect great results
> is a frequent task in this newsgroup.


The Fourth of July celebration in my town had the annual toss a ping pong ball
in the glass, win a GF contest. lot of "winners" walking around with fish
in plastic bags in the 80 degree weather......


Craig

[Gunther]

In article >,
says...
> I saw a post on a goldfish website from a woman whose sister-in-law was
> keeping 4 common goldfish in a 1/2 gallon tank. The sister-in-law had
> another 6 commons in a 5 gallon tank.
>
> After scolding her sister-in-law, the woman purchased a 30 gallon tank
> for the sister-in-law and convinced her to take some of the goldfish
> back to the store.
>
> It's going to be almost impossible to get anyone to follow a 20 gallons
> per goldfish guideline.
>

Well, I don't think it's really necessary to try to go that far.
The point has always been that the the more water water you can
give to each fish, the easier it will be to adequately take care
of them. It certain _is_ possible to keep a gold fish in a
2 gallon bowl; it's just a lot more work to do so, and more
importantly, the margin for error is much slimmer. Miss a
scheduled water change and the fish gets hurt right away.

Most beginners aren't going to commit to daily water changes,
so it's best to give them a realistic 10G/fish rule-of-thumb
that allows for weekly maintenance. If you tried to convince
them to go for 20G/fish, they'd assume you were a quack and
ignore your advice entirely.

I'm pretty sure that the writer I quoted (from Aquarium USA 2004 BG)
was an experienced tropical fish keeper but not necessarily a
goldfish enthusiast. His "20-30 gallons/goldfish" rule probably
reflects that he found goldfish MUCH harder to care for than
tropicals. It took that much water in order to get to his
personal EQ (Effort Quotient).

I'm in the middle, but leaning his way myself. For
quite a while this Spring I had 4 fish in a 55G, and
two in an 18G. I was recently forced to move a fish
from the small to the large tank, and I noticed the
difference within a week -- the 18 is running much
cleaner now with only one fish, whereas the 55 now
gets noticably dirty faster than before. That shouldn't
be a surprise: the small one's load was cut by 50%
while the large one went up by 25%. When you think
of it that way, it's pretty obvious what effect the
gallons/fish metric has.

Good gravy, somebody tell me to put a sock in it!
Gunther

[Kay]

"Kodiak" > wrote in message
.. .
> I heard 5 gallons for every inch of fish but I think that's for multiple
> small fish, I don't think you can do
> a linear extrapolation of that for large fish. When my Comet reached 4
> inches,
> It became impossible to maintain water quality, I had to take him out of a
> 20gal and into a 33gal.
> When he reached 7" I could no longer keep him in the 33gal, I was changing
> water every 2 days.
> I managed to go like that for almost a year, now he's 9" and in a 90gal,
and
> i'm afraid to have another
> one in there with him.
>
> On top of that someone told me yesterday that during the summer months the
> water gets too warm
> and Goldfish especially, produce alot of Mucous and slime wich aggravates
> the water situation even more,
> I have alot of problems keeping the nitrates down in the summer. Is it
true
> about the Mucous and the warm
> weather?
>
> Best regards... Kodiak.
>
>
>
> "Gunther" > wrote in message
> t...
> > Just to stir up an old argument again,
> > I thought I'd mention this.
> > The current issue of "Aquarium USA 2004",
> > an annual "buyer's guide" type magazine usually
> > found at the checkout stands at PetCo, et al,
> > has an article about goldfish.
> > Among some wise pieces of info (e.g. goldfish are
> > _not_ for beginners, and are more challenging than
> > most tropicals, etc) is the recommendation that
> > since water quality is the #1 issue, goldfish
> > should be given 20-30 gallons per adult fish.
> >
> > In thinking about it, I actually think this is
> > wise, if by adult fish you mean really good-sized
> > specimens, say 6"+. My 55 would be just right for
> > a couple of big bruisers, but can you imagine how
> > silly I'd have felt last year this time with only
> > two little 2" guys in it.... If I had it to do over
> > again, I like to think I'd do it that way, but I suspect
> > I wouldn't. But right now I've got five fairly good
> > sized fish (5-6") in that 55, and it does require effort to
> > stay on top of water quality issues.
> >
> > Gunther
> >

I have 2 commons in a 55 and one is over 8 inches and water quality is fine
with 2 water changes a week, I have filtration for 165 gallons though.

Kay

[Donald Kerns]

Gunther wrote:

> Good gravy, somebody tell me to put a sock in it!
>

Yo, put a sock in it.

(Looking to move some of the 5 fish outta my 55, but the wife won't
allow another tank in the house...)

Hmmm,

That suggests another level for the tub garden...

-D
--
"There is nothing so strong as gentleness, and there is nothing so
gentle as real strength." St. Francis de Sales