Newbie fish disaster at hand

[Marie]

My recent attempt to maintain 1 little goldfish has been frought with
disaster despite a fair amount of reading and help from reputable
petshops. I purchased a single gallon tank with gravel filter and
airstone. Despite what I'd read about a larger (10 gal) per fish tank,
the pet stores assured me this was not a problem as long as I
maintained it. My SIL has the exact same tank and 1 goldfish and has
never had a problem. Within 2 days the water (tap with proper drops to
remove metals/chlorine etc) turned yellow and started to stink of
fish. This progressed until after 5 days it looked horrible (the
petshop said this was normal cycling and it would clear). After 6 days
I changed about 50% of the water. The yellowing began again, quickly.
And "goldie" began developing black spots (ammonia burns?). I took the
water to be tested. Ammonia high--like death zone high, pH hi
alkaline(bright pink on the test strip) and water level hard (I have a
water softner so I don't understand that one). I was given MelaFix, ph
acidfier and an amonia remover. I used all three last night.

ph: after two separate doses of 2 drops per gallon, pH had not moved.
I continued to give drops and test every hour. no change

Ammonia: I ran out of test strips so I am taking the water in tonight
for a test again.

Fish: is eating (I cut WAY back on the food---this was my problem)but
looks sad and black is not better and now on some fins. Why is it
spreading??

I fear I am torturing this small fish. Would a tetra have been better?

Would appreciate constructive advice.

M

[[email protected]]

GF cannot live in a 1 gallon tank. it is like forcing a human to live in a sewer.
your reputable petshop is not reputable. Ingrid

(Marie) wrote:

>My recent attempt to maintain 1 little goldfish has been frought with
>disaster despite a fair amount of reading and help from reputable
>petshops. I purchased a single gallon tank with gravel filter and
>airstone. Despite what I'd read about a larger (10 gal) per fish tank,
>the pet stores assured me this was not a problem as long as I
>maintained it. My SIL has the exact same tank and 1 goldfish and has
>never had a problem. Within 2 days the water (tap with proper drops to
>remove metals/chlorine etc) turned yellow and started to stink of
>fish. This progressed until after 5 days it looked horrible (the
>petshop said this was normal cycling and it would clear). After 6 days
>I changed about 50% of the water. The yellowing began again, quickly.
>And "goldie" began developing black spots (ammonia burns?). I took the
>water to be tested. Ammonia high--like death zone high, pH hi
>alkaline(bright pink on the test strip) and water level hard (I have a
>water softner so I don't understand that one). I was given MelaFix, ph
>acidfier and an amonia remover. I used all three last night.
>
>ph: after two separate doses of 2 drops per gallon, pH had not moved.
>I continued to give drops and test every hour. no change
>
>Ammonia: I ran out of test strips so I am taking the water in tonight
>for a test again.
>
>Fish: is eating (I cut WAY back on the food---this was my problem)but
>looks sad and black is not better and now on some fins. Why is it
>spreading??
>
>I fear I am torturing this small fish. Would a tetra have been better?
>
>Would appreciate constructive advice.
>
>M



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Donald Kerns]

Marie wrote:

> My recent attempt to maintain 1 little goldfish has been frought with
> disaster despite a fair amount of reading and help from reputable
> petshops. I purchased a single gallon tank with gravel filter and
> airstone. Despite what I'd read about a larger (10 gal) per fish tank,
> the pet stores assured me this was not a problem as long as I
> maintained it.

Um, you've got all of us out here in usenet land, with absolutely no axe
to grind, no money to make, and a fair amount of experience saying 10+
gallons per fish...

You are going to believe whomever you WANT to believe I suppose.

-but-

I urge you to look at the "experiment" you're performing. In YOUR
experience is the goldfish happy/healthy in a 1 gallon tank?

>
> I fear I am torturing this small fish.

Sounds like you already know the real answer.

>Would a tetra have been better?
>
> Would appreciate constructive advice.

If you need a one gallon fish, take the goldfish back, and ask the store
about "bettas" also known as "Siamese Fighting Fish" They're very
pretty and will live quite nicely in an uncycled 1 gallon aquarium.

My $0.02US

-Donald
--
"There is nothing so strong as gentleness, and there is nothing so
gentle as real strength." St. Francis de Sales

[Geezer From The Freezer]

1 Gallon!!!!!! No wonder it's ill.

You'd need to change the water every single day!

Do you have any friends who have aquariums - maybe they could help.
OR if the fish shop will take it back, give it back to them.

Poor fish.

[Gunther]

In article >,
says...
> Geezer From The Freezer > wrote in message >...
> > 1 Gallon!!!!!! No wonder it's ill.
> >
> > You'd need to change the water every single day!
> >
> > Do you have any friends who have aquariums - maybe they could help.
> > OR if the fish shop will take it back, give it back to them.
> >
> > Poor fish.
>
> I appreciate the advice (although some is a bit harsh). I talked to
> several people who I trusted and followed the advice I received.
>
> I never intended to hurt anything. This is one little fish 1 inch in
> length. I just cannot imagine why it would need a 10 gallon tank (but
> I guess I know better now). When the problem arose I sought to rectify
> it using the best means available. Bettas are a very good idea, but
> Goldie is not dead and seems much better now that I have changed her
> water and am monitoring the ammonia levels daily with those little dip
> strips as well as water temperature. I have been using the MelaFix for
> her skin and cut down drastically on her food amount (again, this was
> the main problem I discovered).
>

Harsh is in the ear of the beholder. What you actually heard was
frustration. You can't imagine how often your tale gets told here.
I blame the petstore more than you, if it's any consolation.
I (or rather, my first goldfish) fell victim to exactly the
same advice. That was almost exactly two years ago, and I've
still got my 2nd fish (he said, chest puffing with pride).

But to the point....
You're right, of course, a 1" fish in a 10g tank would look
silly: I think the same thing whenever I look at my new 20g that
contains 2 little guys right now. But I know from experience that
they'll grow to be 6" long in about a year, barring any unfortunate
problems, and then 20g will look small. I have 5 goldfish in
a 55Gal and they look crowded to me.

You're doing the right thing -- monitoring ammonia, changing
water -- but I still urge you to get a bigger tank if at all
possible. It's much more fun to do weekly water changes
than daily ones, and the fish do better as well.
(See http://faq.thekrib.com/map.html for lots of good info,
particularly about the nitrogen cycle.)

And you'll eventually need the bigger one anyway, so best
get to it. In fact, I'd recommend a 20 (or more), since you're going
to want 2 fish once you get into it. My 2nd tank, for my 2nd
goldfish, was a 25tall, and eventually it was too small since
I wanted more than three fish.

Gunther

[Marie]

Thank you Gunther. I'm sorry I have frustrated everyone. Really I
thought the pet store would know given the huge size of their fish
area and the fact that the staff seemed very interested and offered
what I thought were rational options. It seems to me if the 1 fish to
10 gall rule is critical that it would be more mentioned outside of
listservs.

I will say to the 6" growth I was told they won't grow unless you get
a bigger tank, so I felt safe. That being said, 10 gallon is not out
of the question. Perhaps I can move Goldie to that and get a Betta for
the smaller tank (which seems certainly large enough given the size of
those golf ball size tanks they are kept in at the store).

Goldie, btw, is covered in a lot of black spots but seems happy,
eating and swimming. I have not done daily water changes as the levels
seem fine and the water is clear. I will continue to monitor the
situation.

Thanks
Marie

[Gunther]

In article >,
says...
> Thank you Gunther. I'm sorry I have frustrated everyone. Really I
> thought the pet store would know given the huge size of their fish
> area and the fact that the staff seemed very interested and offered
> what I thought were rational options. It seems to me if the 1 fish to
> 10 gall rule is critical that it would be more mentioned outside of
> listservs.

You have to remember their job is to sell you stuff. And I've often
suspected that there are many aquarists who are truly knowledgeable
in most areas but have never kept goldfish, and are thus unqualified
to give advice. And they actually look down on goldfish, I think.
But they do know that if you buy a 1 gallon tank, you're apt to
have a fatality in a week or so. And you'll be back. With money.
You'll have better luck if you read up on the hobby independently,
library books, here, sites like www.thekrib.com, Puregold
(http://users.megapathdsl.net/~solo/puregold/), and others.


> I will say to the 6" growth I was told they won't grow unless you get
> a bigger tank, so I felt safe.
I've heard that myth myself, and no longer believe it.
Others here may know more about it.

> That being said, 10 gallon is not out
> of the question. Perhaps I can move Goldie to that and get a Betta for
> the smaller tank (which seems certainly large enough given the size of
> those golf ball size tanks they are kept in at the store).

Good plan, I think.
>
> Goldie, btw, is covered in a lot of black spots but seems happy,
> eating and swimming. I have not done daily water changes as the levels
> seem fine and the water is clear.

Um...bad plan, that. Change that water. Unless Goldie had those
spots when you got him/her, they indicate a probable water problem.
I think I can guarantee that a new, uncycled 1 gallon tank with
an under-gravel filter and a goldfish has very high ammonia levels,
regardless of what test strips might indicate. Do a 50% change
with temperature-matched, de-chlorinated water, just for drill, OK?


> I will continue to monitor the
> situation.

Good luck,
Gunther

[Marie]

Gunther > wrote in message > > Goldie, btw, is covered in a lot of black spots but seems happy,
> > eating and swimming. I have not done daily water changes as the levels
> > seem fine and the water is clear.
>
> Um...bad plan, that. Change that water. Unless Goldie had those
> spots when you got him/her, they indicate a probable water problem.
> I think I can guarantee that a new, uncycled 1 gallon tank with
> an under-gravel filter and a goldfish has very high ammonia levels,
> regardless of what test strips might indicate. Do a 50% change
> with temperature-matched, de-chlorinated water, just for drill, OK?


Yes, as you suspected, the amonia began to increase (water clarity has
remained excellent now that I reduced feedings to several tiny amounts
durng the day). I've found now that every other day changing out 50%
of the water and replacing it with matched temperature, de-chlor etc'd
water has kept the levels good. BTW, this isn't really that hard given
the size of the tank. Not really a chore. T've been treating the water
with Melafix since I determined the water was initially so badly out
of whack. I hope this is helping, the black continues to spread (I
thought this was a sign of healing and considering the state of her
initial water she probably will be midnight black for a while).

I've found out that my son's preschool has a 10 gall acquarium with
heater, filters etc and that the day care lady is quite a fish
afficionado. I plan to ask her if Goldie can have a new home with her.
My one concern is that the tank currently has three small (1
inch)fancy tail guppies and maybe a Betta (not sure). Will the
goldfish eat these (or conversely, will they eat him?)

Marie

[Gunther]

In article >,
says...
> Yes, as you suspected, the amonia began to increase (water clarity has
> remained excellent now that I reduced feedings to several tiny amounts
> durng the day). I've found now that every other day changing out 50%
> of the water and replacing it with matched temperature, de-chlor etc'd
> water has kept the levels good. BTW, this isn't really that hard given
> the size of the tank. Not really a chore. T've been treating the water
> with Melafix since I determined the water was initially so badly out
> of whack. I hope this is helping, the black continues to spread (I
> thought this was a sign of healing and considering the state of her
> initial water she probably will be midnight black for a while).
>
> I've found out that my son's preschool has a 10 gall acquarium with
> heater, filters etc and that the day care lady is quite a fish
> afficionado. I plan to ask her if Goldie can have a new home with her.
> My one concern is that the tank currently has three small (1
> inch)fancy tail guppies and maybe a Betta (not sure). Will the
> goldfish eat these (or conversely, will they eat him?)
>
> Marie

I'm not sure what the timing is between burn and blackening. It
could well be that it's still spreading because it's still getting
burned between PWCs. Since you agree that water quality is
of paramount importance, why not just do them daily for a while
as a just-in-case? As you say, it's not that big a chore, and
is good for the fish.

If the day-care lady is a real fish-ionado(*), she'll probably resist
just adding another fish to an existing setup. I know I would:
even a small goldfish would be close to doubling the biomass,
and more than doubling the ammonia production, I suspect.
In other words, more work for her that she may not want.
But I suspect she might be open to a deal: maybe you
volunteer to help out with time or fishfood or ?

Good luck.
Gunther

(*) - I hereby claim all rights and privileges with respect to
the word "fish-ionado" or derivations thereof for commercial
and/or artistic purposes.


>

[Donald Kerns]

Gunther wrote:

> (*) - I hereby claim all rights and privileges with respect to
> the word "fish-ionado" or derivations thereof for commercial
> and/or artistic purposes.

Prior art...
http://www.wadefish.com/

-D
--
"There is nothing so strong as gentleness, and there is nothing so
gentle as real strength." St. Francis de Sales

[Gunther]

In article >,
says...
> Gunther wrote:
>
> > (*) - I hereby claim all rights and privileges with respect to
> > the word "fish-ionado" or derivations thereof for commercial
> > and/or artistic purposes.
>
> Prior art...
> http://www.wadefish.com/
>

Curses! Foiled again....

G

[Marie]

The tank at the daycare is heated to 82 degrees, which I see is
outside the preferred range for goldfish.

I will continue the daily water changes until we find Goldie a new
home. Her black is spreading. I'm not sure how long she has left.

Thanks
Marie

[Donald Kerns]

Marie wrote:

> The tank at the daycare is heated to 82 degrees, which I see is
> outside the preferred range for goldfish.

Goldfish will cope at 82 degrees F. Might want an (extra) airstone,
warmer water has less O2 in it.

In general don't want to mix goldies and other fish due to goldfish...
um, dirty output...

> I will continue the daily water changes until we find Goldie a new
> home. Her black is spreading. I'm not sure how long she has left.

Marie, any chance at a larger tank?

Or a Rubbermade tub with a corner or sponge filter? Around here you can
pick up a 18 gallon tub for $7US, add in a sponge filter (couple of
bucks) and a air pump (hopefully you have one?) and you've got a
reasonable temporary home for the fish...

(The sponge filter will eventually cycle.)

You also might consider adding 1 teaspoon of aquarium salt per 5 gallons
of water to the (small tank) ramping up to 3 teaspoons per 5 gallons
over three days. (What... a 1/4 teaspoon per gallon in measureable
terms)

Question: Is it your tap water than is really basic (high pH) and how
high, or is it just the water in the tank?

-D
--
"There is nothing so strong as gentleness, and there is nothing so
gentle as real strength." St. Francis de Sales

[Donald Kerns]

Marie wrote:

> Never thought of that. Will the tank NEVER cycle in an
> undergravel filter? and how long does this cycling take anyway??
>

Normal "from scratch" cycling usually takes from 3 to 6 weeks. YMMV.

The problem with having a goldfish in a one gallon container is there is
the possibility that the goldfish is putting out more ammonia than your
fully cycled biofilter can handle... (even if it were fully up and
running.)

If you haven't visited

http://fins.actwin.com/mirror/begin-cycling.html

and

http://users.megapathdsl.net/~solo/puregold/care/care1.htm#essentials

you probably ought to...

-D
--
"There is nothing so strong as gentleness, and there is nothing so
gentle as real strength." St. Francis de Sales

[Marie]

Good news! Goldie is significantly less black this evening. In fact,
the places which turned black first have all cleared and there is
nothing new spreading. I will continue to do 50% water changes daily
until I find her a good home. This will be my last post until I find
her a new place. The daycare teacher told me this afternoon she didn't
want another fish after all because her guppies had babies (you could
see them in the tank) and she thought Goldie would eat them.

Oh well, I'm just glad she's doing so much better on her Melafix.
Thanks for your help. I've learned my lesson!

Marie

[Marie]

Just a little update. Still haven't found a willing home for Goldie.
She has COMPLETELY RECOVERED from her black ammonia burns and it once
again all better. I'm still changing half the water almost daily and
she seems happy as a clam.

[Donald Kerns]

Marie wrote:

> Just a little update. Still haven't found a willing home for Goldie.
> She has COMPLETELY RECOVERED from her black ammonia burns and it once
> again all better. I'm still changing half the water almost daily and
> she seems happy as a clam.

Congratulations!

-D
--
"There is nothing so strong as gentleness, and there is nothing so
gentle as real strength." St. Francis de Sales

[Marie]

Update:

Goldie is still doing great almost three weeks later. We are changing
her water every day or every other day and cleaning the gravel once
per week. She is just fine and we hope to find her a bigger home soon.
For now, all is well!

One question though, do most people feed their fish twice a day or
just once? I'm nervous to not over feed and cause too much food
debris.


Marie