DIY CO2 system question

[Ken Pinard]

I have been running my first DIY Yeast CO2 system. I of course did
everything not quite the way discribed:

I used a one gallon plastic milk jug. Filled it half full and put in extra
sugar (about 3 cups). added 1/8 teaspoon baking soda and 1/8 Teaspoon yeast
(standard red what ever it was). I put a diffuser in the tank (Bell type -
plastic pop bottle with the sides cut out.)

It has been running for three weeks and is still going strong. the bell
never empties and it occasionally releases excess CO2.

So now the question: I know that the yesat solution will get Alcohol in it
before it dies. Since I used a large container, can the alcohol get into the
tank to posion (inhibriate) my fishies? How much of a problem should I watch
for?

I have 25 gal tank with 14 small (1 inch mostly) fish. 4 plants around the
difusser. pH is 6.6, Kh around 5. 0 nitrates, nitrites, ammonia. I do weekly
water changes of 20%.

The fish are a bit agitated this morning. Normally, they get along better.

Thank you,

Ken

[bannor]

On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 21:08:55 GMT, "Ken Pinard" >
wrote:
<snip>
>So now the question: I know that the yesat solution will get Alcohol in it
>before it dies. Since I used a large container, can the alcohol get into the
>tank to posion (inhibriate) my fishies? How much of a problem should I watch
>for?
>
>I have 25 gal tank with 14 small (1 inch mostly) fish. 4 plants around the
>difusser. pH is 6.6, Kh around 5. 0 nitrates, nitrites, ammonia. I do weekly
>water changes of 20%.
>
>The fish are a bit agitated this morning. Normally, they get along better.

Ken, I am sorry... I must have missed this post when you first put
this question out there.

The answer to your question is depends: Is the bottle below or above
the tank? If Below, there is no way for the contents of the bottle to
get into the tank unless you knock it over. If the bottle is above
the tank, then yes, there is the possiblity.

I have mine below the tank, and also have them (I have 2), tied so
that they can not be accidentally knocked over by my curious cats.
With a one gallon jug, I doubt that it would easily be knocked over,
so I doubt that you will have that problem.

One thing you can do to help allieviate some of the alcohol is to add
baking soda to your water after you have disolved the sugar. In a one
gallon container, up to around 1/4 cup would be fine. That will
reduce the amount of free alcohol in the mix but will not stop the
conversion to co2 gas. You will still have to change the mixture out
on the same schedule though.

[Ken Pinard]

Thank you,
I have the bottle below the tank as well. I did put a little Baking soda
in but not as much as you suggested. I am using a 2 liter bottle now. The 1
gallon milk jug didn't hold the pressure well. That was my first attempt it
was interesting to see how it worked. I have adjusted my duffuser now to all
better circulation through it and to keep it lower beneath the plants.

Ken

"bannor" <bannor -at- echoes - net - mind the spam block> wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 21:08:55 GMT, "Ken Pinard" >
> wrote:
> <snip>
> >So now the question: I know that the yesat solution will get Alcohol in
it
> >before it dies. Since I used a large container, can the alcohol get into
the
> >tank to posion (inhibriate) my fishies? How much of a problem should I
watch
> >for?
> >
> >I have 25 gal tank with 14 small (1 inch mostly) fish. 4 plants around
the
> >difusser. pH is 6.6, Kh around 5. 0 nitrates, nitrites, ammonia. I do
weekly
> >water changes of 20%.
> >
> >The fish are a bit agitated this morning. Normally, they get along
better.
>
> Ken, I am sorry... I must have missed this post when you first put
> this question out there.
>
> The answer to your question is depends: Is the bottle below or above
> the tank? If Below, there is no way for the contents of the bottle to
> get into the tank unless you knock it over. If the bottle is above
> the tank, then yes, there is the possiblity.
>
> I have mine below the tank, and also have them (I have 2), tied so
> that they can not be accidentally knocked over by my curious cats.
> With a one gallon jug, I doubt that it would easily be knocked over,
> so I doubt that you will have that problem.
>
> One thing you can do to help allieviate some of the alcohol is to add
> baking soda to your water after you have disolved the sugar. In a one
> gallon container, up to around 1/4 cup would be fine. That will
> reduce the amount of free alcohol in the mix but will not stop the
> conversion to co2 gas. You will still have to change the mixture out
> on the same schedule though.

[bannor]

On Wed, 03 Mar 2004 10:07:45 GMT, "Ken Pinard" >
wrote:
>Thank you,
> I have the bottle below the tank as well. I did put a little Baking soda
>in but not as much as you suggested. I am using a 2 liter bottle now. The 1
>gallon milk jug didn't hold the pressure well. That was my first attempt it
>was interesting to see how it worked. I have adjusted my duffuser now to all
>better circulation through it and to keep it lower beneath the plants.
>Ken

Yeah, I am not surprised about the milk jug not holding the pressure.
I use 2 X 2 liter bottles on each plant tank... and rotate their
changes of media so that I am never without CO2 production.

The only time I ever had a leak from the 2 liter bottles was when it
was knocked over on it's side... the pressure from the CO2 forced the
fluid up into tank... fortunately I caught it before I lost too much
fluid... of course, it was a mess to clean up... i had to force bleach
through the tubing, bubble counter etc then flush it very well with
clear water and start the whole system back up again. I lost about
1/4 cup total fluid up into my tubing etc, so less than that actually
made it into the tank.. fish etc survived well, but I made a 30% water
change that day and the following day just to be safe.

I have seen someone advertising acrylic racks for holding 2 2 liter
bottles on aquabid... that will probably be my next purchase, 3 or 4
of those should suffice for my current setups...

[N. Wise]

From: bannor bannor-at- echoes - net - mind the spam block

>On Wed, 03 Mar 2004 10:07:45 GMT, "Ken Pinard" >
>wrote:
>>Thank you,
>> I have the bottle below the tank as well. I did put a little Baking soda
>>in but not as much as you suggested. I am using a 2 liter bottle now. The 1
>>gallon milk jug didn't hold the pressure well. That was my first attempt it
>>was interesting to see how it worked. I have adjusted my duffuser now to all
>>better circulation through it and to keep it lower beneath the plants.
>>Ken
>
>Yeah, I am not surprised about the milk jug not holding the pressure.
>I use 2 X 2 liter bottles on each plant tank... and rotate their
>changes of media so that I am never without CO2 production.
>
>The only time I ever had a leak from the 2 liter bottles was when it
>was knocked over on it's side... the pressure from the CO2 forced the
>fluid up into tank... fortunately I caught it before I lost too much
>fluid... of course, it was a mess to clean up... i had to force bleach
>through the tubing, bubble counter etc then flush it very well with
>clear water and start the whole system back up again. I lost about
>1/4 cup total fluid up into my tubing etc, so less than that actually
>made it into the tank.. fish etc survived well, but I made a 30% water
>change that day and the following day just to be safe.
>
>I have seen someone advertising acrylic racks for holding 2 2 liter
>bottles on aquabid... that will probably be my next purchase, 3 or 4
>of those should suffice for my current setups...

I have experienced the same problem with 2 liter pop bottles falling over. The
problem is the bottom is not a very stable surface. To solve this, I switched
to 1/2 gal plastic juice bottles. They have a flat bottom that doesn't tip
easily and they are made of a much more sturdy plastic. And fruit juice is
better for you than pop, didn't your mom ever teach you this?


Nick Wise
http://members.aol.com/nwwise01

[Morten]

Bannor,

"bannor" <bannor -at- echoes - net - mind the spam block> wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 21:08:55 GMT, "Ken Pinard" >
> wrote:
>
> The answer to your question is depends: Is the bottle below or above
> the tank? If Below, there is no way for the contents of the bottle to
> get into the tank unless you knock it over. If the bottle is above
> the tank, then yes, there is the possiblity.
>
> I have mine below the tank, and also have them (I have 2), tied so
> that they can not be accidentally knocked over by my curious cats.
> With a one gallon jug, I doubt that it would easily be knocked over,
> so I doubt that you will have that problem.
>
> One thing you can do to help allieviate some of the alcohol is to add
> baking soda to your water after you have disolved the sugar. In a one
> gallon container, up to around 1/4 cup would be fine. That will
> reduce the amount of free alcohol in the mix but will not stop the
> conversion to co2 gas. You will still have to change the mixture out
> on the same schedule though.

The addition of baking soda (2NaHCO3) will not lower the amount of alcohol
(CH3CH2OH) on the solution unless you put so much if in there that it lovers
the pH too much below 5 effectually killing the yeast before it gets a
chance to convert the sugar (C6H12O6) to CO2

The chemical reaction (or at least the end result of the yeast's reduction
of sugar goes like this:

C6H12O6(aq) => 2(CH3CH2OH(aq)) + 2(CO2) + energy (used by yeast)

so, for each mol of sugar you get 2 mol of CO2 and because the molar weight
of sugar is 180 g/mol and the molar weight of alcohol is 38 g/mol, you will
get (2 * 40 g/mol) / 180 g/mol = 0.4444 g CO2 for each g og sugar.

This is max you can get but because some of the CO2 will stay in the water
in the yeast reactor you will get a little less than the 0.4444 g CO2 / 1g
C6H12O6 mentioned above.


Since the molar weight for alcohol (CH3CH2OH) is 38 g/mol you will get (2 *
38 g/mol) / (180 g/mol) = 0.4222 g alcohol for each g sugar added to the
reactor.


But, because the alcohol will kill the yeast if the concentration gets to
high (depending on which type of yeast is used, common baking yeast will
start to die arround (7% - 8%) we need to make sure that the concentration
of alcohol is low enough to make sure that all the sugar is consumed before
the alcohol kills the yeast.



If using 2.0L of water (H2O) = 2000g and 220g og sugar the end concentration
will be (0.4222 * 220 g alcohol ) / (2000 g water) = 0.046444 = 4.6444 %
which will alow the yeast to consume all the sugar and still survive the
alcohol.


When all the sugar is gone the yeast will 'floculate' out of solution and
sink to the bottom of the yeast container but will not die, so we can
actually re-use the yeast every time we set up another batch of sugar if we
carefully drains the water / alcohol solution from the container and don't
rinse the container with very hot water killing the yeast in the process.

In the long run it will benefit the yeast if we used a yeast nutrient (can
be bought from home brewers shops) to feed the yeast the nutrients that the
yeast needs to stay healthy for prolonged use.


Because some of the CO2 stays in the water we have a buffer solution like
this:

CO2 + H2O <=> H+(aq) + HCO3-(aq)

This process is dependent on temperature and the specific wapor pressure of
CO2 in the container and the water, but i can't remember how to calculate
the exact ammount of CO2 in solition given the pressure / temperature of the
solution, so I'll ignore this bit :-)

When adding baking soda you effectively increases the kH of the solution
which loveres the pH making the environment a little more hostile to the
yeast. If i remember correctly yeast prefers a pH of 5 to 6, but will
survive 4 to 9, so there are some room for pH swings before the yeast gives
up.

This reaction goes like this:

2NaHCO3 + H2O <=> 2Na+(aq) + 2HCO3-(aq)


Baking soda can be added to stabilise the pH in the reactor if the water
used have a very lov Kh, but for normal (higher that 4 Kh) water baking soda
actually makes the conditions for the yeast worse but might prolong the
reaction somewhat purely because some of the yeast will die because of the
higner pH in the reactor.



I hope this came through as i thought it, if not please dont hesitate to ask
further questions :-)


Regards

Morten



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.611 / Virus Database: 391 - Release Date: 03/03/2004

[Harry Muscle]

"Morten" > wrote in message
...

SNIP

> The addition of baking soda (2NaHCO3) will not lower the amount of alcohol
> (CH3CH2OH) on the solution unless you put so much if in there that it
lovers
> the pH too much below 5 effectually killing the yeast before it gets a
> chance to convert the sugar (C6H12O6) to CO2
>
> The chemical reaction (or at least the end result of the yeast's reduction
> of sugar goes like this:
>
> C6H12O6(aq) => 2(CH3CH2OH(aq)) + 2(CO2) + energy (used by yeast)
>
> so, for each mol of sugar you get 2 mol of CO2 and because the molar
weight
> of sugar is 180 g/mol and the molar weight of alcohol is 38 g/mol, you
will
> get (2 * 40 g/mol) / 180 g/mol = 0.4444 g CO2 for each g og sugar.
>
> This is max you can get but because some of the CO2 will stay in the water
> in the yeast reactor you will get a little less than the 0.4444 g CO2 / 1g
> C6H12O6 mentioned above.
>
>
> Since the molar weight for alcohol (CH3CH2OH) is 38 g/mol you will get (2
*
> 38 g/mol) / (180 g/mol) = 0.4222 g alcohol for each g sugar added to the
> reactor.
>
>
> But, because the alcohol will kill the yeast if the concentration gets to
> high (depending on which type of yeast is used, common baking yeast will
> start to die arround (7% - 8%) we need to make sure that the concentration
> of alcohol is low enough to make sure that all the sugar is consumed
before
> the alcohol kills the yeast.
>
>
>
> If using 2.0L of water (H2O) = 2000g and 220g og sugar the end
concentration
> will be (0.4222 * 220 g alcohol ) / (2000 g water) = 0.046444 = 4.6444 %
> which will alow the yeast to consume all the sugar and still survive the
> alcohol.
>
>
> When all the sugar is gone the yeast will 'floculate' out of solution and
> sink to the bottom of the yeast container but will not die, so we can
> actually re-use the yeast every time we set up another batch of sugar if
we
> carefully drains the water / alcohol solution from the container and don't
> rinse the container with very ater killing the yeast in the process.
>
> In the long run it will benefit the yeast if we used a yeast nutrient (can
> be bought from home brewers shops) to feed the yeast the nutrients that
the
> yeast needs to stay healthy for prolonged use.
>
>
> Because some of the CO2 stays in the water we have a buffer solution like
> this:
>
> CO2 + H2O <=> H+(aq) + HCO3-(aq)
>
> This process is dependent on temperature and the specific wapor pressure
of
> CO2 in the container and the water, but i can't remember how to calculate
> the exact ammount of CO2 in solition given the pressure / temperature of
the
> solution, so I'll ignore this bit :-)
>
> When adding baking soda you effectively increases the kH of the solution
> which loveres the pH making the environment a little more hostile to the
> yeast. If i remember correctly yeast prefers a pH of 5 to 6, but will
> survive 4 to 9, so there are some room for pH swings before the yeast
gives
> up.
>
> This reaction goes like this:
>
> 2NaHCO3 + H2O <=> 2Na+(aq) + 2HCO3-(aq)
>
>
> Baking soda can be added to stabilise the pH in the reactor if the water
> used have a very lov Kh, but for normal (higher that 4 Kh) water baking
soda
> actually makes the conditions for the yeast worse but might prolong the
> reaction somewhat purely because some of the yeast will die because of the
> higner pH in the reactor.
>
>
>
> I hope this came through as i thought it, if not please dont hesitate to
ask
> further questions :-)
>
>
> Regards
>
> Morten
>
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.611 / Virus Database: 391 - Release Date: 03/03/2004
>
>

That's a keeper. Nice explanation. Here's a link to a site that also goes
into a lot of detail about DIY CO2:
http://www.qsl.net/w2wdx/aquaria/diyco2.html . It even talks about which
yeast is best, etc. FYI, it's a long read.

Harry




-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

[Morten]

Hi Harry

"Harry Muscle" > wrote in message
...
> "Morten" > wrote in message
> ...
>

> That's a keeper. Nice explanation. Here's a link to a site that also
goes
> into a lot of detail about DIY CO2:
> http://www.qsl.net/w2wdx/aquaria/diyco2.html . It even talks about which
> yeast is best, etc. FYI, it's a long read.

If only I knew before i started describing this lenghty process :-)


/Morten




---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.611 / Virus Database: 391 - Release Date: 03/03/2004

[Morten]

Folks,

The calculations I did in the previous mail were wrong, I just double
checked them...

Here are the original mail with the right figures...

/Morten


---

The addition of baking soda (2NaHCO3) will not lower the amount of alcohol
(CH3CH2OH) on the solution unless you put so much if in there that it lovers
the pH too much below 5 effectually killing the yeast before it gets a
chance to convert the sugar (C6H12O6) to CO2

The chemical reaction (or at least the end result of the yeast's reduction
of sugar goes like this:

C6H12O6(aq) => 2(CH3CH2OH(aq)) + 2(CO2(g)) + energy (used by yeast)

so, for each mol of sugar you get 2 mol of CO2 and because the molar weight
of sugar is 180.1572 g/mol and the molar weight of CO2 is 44.0098 g/mol, you
will get (2 * 44.0098 g/mol) / 180.1572 g/mol = 0.4886 g CO2 for each g og
sugar.

This is max you can get but because some of the CO2 will stay in the water
in the yeast reactor you will get a little less than the 0.4886 g CO2 / g
sugar mentioned above.


Since the molar weight for alcohol (CH3CH2OH) is 46.0688 g/mol you will get
(2 * 46.0688 g/mol) / (180.1572 g/mol) = 0.5114 g alcohol for each g sugar
added to the reactor.


But, because the alcohol will kill the yeast if the concentration gets to
high (depending on which type of yeast is used, common baking yeast will
start to die arround (7% - 8%) we need to make sure that the concentration
of alcohol is low enough to make sure that all the sugar is consumed before
the alcohol kills the yeast.


If using 2.0L of water (H2O) = 2000g and 220g og sugar the end concentration
will be (0.4886 * 220 g ) / (2000 g + 04886 * 220 g) = 0.0533 = 5.33 % which
will alow the yeast to consume all the sugar and still survive the alcohol.

Using 220 g of sugar this will yield 0.5114 * 220g = 112.5143 g alcohol and
0.4886 * 220g = 107.4856 g CO2


When all the sugar is gone the yeast will 'floculate' out of solution and
sink to the bottom of the yeast container but will not die, so we can actual
ly re-use the yeast every time we set up another batch of sugar if we
carefully drains the water / alcohol solution from the container and don't
rinse the container with very hot water killing the yeast in the process.

In the long run it will benefit the yeast if we used a yeast nutrient (can
be bought from home brewers shops) to feed the yeast the nutrients that the
yeast needs to stay healthy for prolonged use.


Because some of the CO2 stays in the water we have a buffer solution like
this:

CO2 + H2O <=> H+(aq) + HCO3-(aq)

This process is dependent on temperature and the specific wapor pressure of
CO2 in the container and the water, but i can't remember how to calculate
the exact ammount of CO2 in solition given the pressure / temperature of the
solution, so I'll ignore this bit :-)

When adding baking soda you effectively increases the kH of the solution
which loveres the pH making the environment a little more hostile to the
yeast. If i remember correctly yeast prefers a pH of 5 to 6, but will
survive 4 to 9, so there are some room for pH swings before the yeast gives
up.

This reaction goes like this:

2NaHCO3 + H2O <=> 2Na+(aq) + 2HCO3-(aq)


Baking soda can be added to stabilise the pH in the reactor if the water
used have a very lov Kh, but for normal (higher that 4 Kh) water baking soda
actually makes the conditions for the yeast worse but might prolong the
reaction somewhat purely because some of the yeast will die because of the
higner pH in the reactor.



I hope this came through as i thought it, if not please dont hesitate to ask
further questions :-)


Regards

Morten
----



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.611 / Virus Database: 391 - Release Date: 03/03/2004

[Ken Pinard]

Hi nice explanation, I do have a couple of questions. Mostly for my own
curious mind.

Since Baking Soda is Basic will it not raise the pH? I know we used it in
chemistry to neutralize the acids (even the stuff I dropped all of the
floor, what a mess ;o)

But since Baking Soda raises the kH, the amount of CO2 that is held in the
water solution will be higher. Thus creating carbonic acid. Which will lower
the pH.

I wish I remembered my chemistry better, its been 25 years now, I actually
find all these equations fascinating.

As I ponder the effect of alcohol on yeast, while I drink a little wine, I
am wondering what additive can combine with alcohol that will not kill the
yeast or react with CO2? I imagine that the idea has been explored before.
I just was curious.

Thank you for the explanation and equations, I am going to go over them with
my old chem books (still got them) and try and get them in my head again.

Ken Pinard (French meaning wine - I have alcohol on the brain ;)


"Morten" > wrote in message
...
> Folks,
>
> The calculations I did in the previous mail were wrong, I just double
> checked them...
>
> Here are the original mail with the right figures...
>
> /Morten
>
>
> ---
>
> The addition of baking soda (2NaHCO3) will not lower the amount of alcohol
> (CH3CH2OH) on the solution unless you put so much if in there that it
lovers
> the pH too much below 5 effectually killing the yeast before it gets a
> chance to convert the sugar (C6H12O6) to CO2
>
> The chemical reaction (or at least the end result of the yeast's reduction
> of sugar goes like this:
>
> C6H12O6(aq) => 2(CH3CH2OH(aq)) + 2(CO2(g)) + energy (used by yeast)
>
> so, for each mol of sugar you get 2 mol of CO2 and because the molar
weight
> of sugar is 180.1572 g/mol and the molar weight of CO2 is 44.0098 g/mol,
you
> will get (2 * 44.0098 g/mol) / 180.1572 g/mol = 0.4886 g CO2 for each g og
> sugar.
>
> This is max you can get but because some of the CO2 will stay in the water
> in the yeast reactor you will get a little less than the 0.4886 g CO2 / g
> sugar mentioned above.
>
>
> Since the molar weight for alcohol (CH3CH2OH) is 46.0688 g/mol you will
get
> (2 * 46.0688 g/mol) / (180.1572 g/mol) = 0.5114 g alcohol for each g sugar
> added to the reactor.
>
>
> But, because the alcohol will kill the yeast if the concentration gets to
> high (depending on which type of yeast is used, common baking yeast will
> start to die arround (7% - 8%) we need to make sure that the concentration
> of alcohol is low enough to make sure that all the sugar is consumed
before
> the alcohol kills the yeast.
>
>
> If using 2.0L of water (H2O) = 2000g and 220g og sugar the end
concentration
> will be (0.4886 * 220 g ) / (2000 g + 04886 * 220 g) = 0.0533 = 5.33 %
which
> will alow the yeast to consume all the sugar and still survive the
alcohol.
>
> Using 220 g of sugar this will yield 0.5114 * 220g = 112.5143 g alcohol
and
> 0.4886 * 220g = 107.4856 g CO2
>
>
> When all the sugar is gone the yeast will 'floculate' out of solution and
> sink to the bottom of the yeast container but will not die, so we can
actual
> ly re-use the yeast every time we set up another batch of sugar if we
> carefully drains the water / alcohol solution from the container and don't
> rinse the container with very hot water killing the yeast in the process.
>
> In the long run it will benefit the yeast if we used a yeast nutrient (can
> be bought from home brewers shops) to feed the yeast the nutrients that
the
> yeast needs to stay healthy for prolonged use.
>
>
> Because some of the CO2 stays in the water we have a buffer solution like
> this:
>
> CO2 + H2O <=> H+(aq) + HCO3-(aq)
>
> This process is dependent on temperature and the specific wapor pressure
of
> CO2 in the container and the water, but i can't remember how to calculate
> the exact ammount of CO2 in solition given the pressure / temperature of
the
> solution, so I'll ignore this bit :-)
>
> When adding baking soda you effectively increases the kH of the solution
> which loveres the pH making the environment a little more hostile to the
> yeast. If i remember correctly yeast prefers a pH of 5 to 6, but will
> survive 4 to 9, so there are some room for pH swings before the yeast
gives
> up.
>
> This reaction goes like this:
>
> 2NaHCO3 + H2O <=> 2Na+(aq) + 2HCO3-(aq)
>
>
> Baking soda can be added to stabilise the pH in the reactor if the water
> used have a very lov Kh, but for normal (higher that 4 Kh) water baking
soda
> actually makes the conditions for the yeast worse but might prolong the
> reaction somewhat purely because some of the yeast will die because of the
> higner pH in the reactor.
>
>
>
> I hope this came through as i thought it, if not please dont hesitate to
ask
> further questions :-)
>
>
> Regards
>
> Morten
> ----
>
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.611 / Virus Database: 391 - Release Date: 03/03/2004
>
>

[Ken Pinard]

Ok, now I am getting even more curious,

Do you happen to know the volume of 2 mols of CO2? How about the volume
of single bubble from a 1/4" (standard) air line?

Yeh, I've gone off the deep end. I was just thinking that I might be
able to guess the length that a solution could survive and how much CO2
would be available for the tank during that time. Basically, the it won't
change the how often I change the bottles, but I started in Chemistry in
college because I found the numbers intriguing.

Thank you again,

Ken Pinard


"Ken Pinard" > wrote in message
...
> Hi nice explanation, I do have a couple of questions. Mostly for my own
> curious mind.
>
> Since Baking Soda is Basic will it not raise the pH? I know we used it in
> chemistry to neutralize the acids (even the stuff I dropped all of the
> floor, what a mess ;o)
>
> But since Baking Soda raises the kH, the amount of CO2 that is held in the
> water solution will be higher. Thus creating carbonic acid. Which will
lower
> the pH.
>
> I wish I remembered my chemistry better, its been 25 years now, I actually
> find all these equations fascinating.
>
> As I ponder the effect of alcohol on yeast, while I drink a little wine, I
> am wondering what additive can combine with alcohol that will not kill the
> yeast or react with CO2? I imagine that the idea has been explored
before.
> I just was curious.
>
> Thank you for the explanation and equations, I am going to go over them
with
> my old chem books (still got them) and try and get them in my head again.
>
> Ken Pinard (French meaning wine - I have alcohol on the brain ;)
>
>
> "Morten" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Folks,
> >
> > The calculations I did in the previous mail were wrong, I just double
> > checked them...
> >
> > Here are the original mail with the right figures...
> >
> > /Morten
> >
> >
> > ---
> >
> > The addition of baking soda (2NaHCO3) will not lower the amount of
alcohol
> > (CH3CH2OH) on the solution unless you put so much if in there that it
> lovers
> > the pH too much below 5 effectually killing the yeast before it gets a
> > chance to convert the sugar (C6H12O6) to CO2
> >
> > The chemical reaction (or at least the end result of the yeast's
reduction
> > of sugar goes like this:
> >
> > C6H12O6(aq) => 2(CH3CH2OH(aq)) + 2(CO2(g)) + energy (used by yeast)
> >
> > so, for each mol of sugar you get 2 mol of CO2 and because the molar
> weight
> > of sugar is 180.1572 g/mol and the molar weight of CO2 is 44.0098 g/mol,
> you
> > will get (2 * 44.0098 g/mol) / 180.1572 g/mol = 0.4886 g CO2 for each g
og
> > sugar.
> >
> > This is max you can get but because some of the CO2 will stay in the
water
> > in the yeast reactor you will get a little less than the 0.4886 g CO2 /
g
> > sugar mentioned above.
> >
> >
> > Since the molar weight for alcohol (CH3CH2OH) is 46.0688 g/mol you will
> get
> > (2 * 46.0688 g/mol) / (180.1572 g/mol) = 0.5114 g alcohol for each g
sugar
> > added to the reactor.
> >
> >
> > But, because the alcohol will kill the yeast if the concentration gets
to
> > high (depending on which type of yeast is used, common baking yeast will
> > start to die arround (7% - 8%) we need to make sure that the
concentration
> > of alcohol is low enough to make sure that all the sugar is consumed
> before
> > the alcohol kills the yeast.
> >
> >
> > If using 2.0L of water (H2O) = 2000g and 220g og sugar the end
> concentration
> > will be (0.4886 * 220 g ) / (2000 g + 04886 * 220 g) = 0.0533 = 5.33 %
> which
> > will alow the yeast to consume all the sugar and still survive the
> alcohol.
> >
> > Using 220 g of sugar this will yield 0.5114 * 220g = 112.5143 g alcohol
> and
> > 0.4886 * 220g = 107.4856 g CO2
> >
> >
> > When all the sugar is gone the yeast will 'floculate' out of solution
and
> > sink to the bottom of the yeast container but will not die, so we can
> actual
> > ly re-use the yeast every time we set up another batch of sugar if we
> > carefully drains the water / alcohol solution from the container and
don't
> > rinse the container with very hot water killing the yeast in the
process.
> >
> > In the long run it will benefit the yeast if we used a yeast nutrient
(can
> > be bought from home brewers shops) to feed the yeast the nutrients that
> the
> > yeast needs to stay healthy for prolonged use.
> >
> >
> > Because some of the CO2 stays in the water we have a buffer solution
like
> > this:
> >
> > CO2 + H2O <=> H+(aq) + HCO3-(aq)
> >
> > This process is dependent on temperature and the specific wapor pressure
> of
> > CO2 in the container and the water, but i can't remember how to
calculate
> > the exact ammount of CO2 in solition given the pressure / temperature of
> the
> > solution, so I'll ignore this bit :-)
> >
> > When adding baking soda you effectively increases the kH of the solution
> > which loveres the pH making the environment a little more hostile to the
> > yeast. If i remember correctly yeast prefers a pH of 5 to 6, but will
> > survive 4 to 9, so there are some room for pH swings before the yeast
> gives
> > up.
> >
> > This reaction goes like this:
> >
> > 2NaHCO3 + H2O <=> 2Na+(aq) + 2HCO3-(aq)
> >
> >
> > Baking soda can be added to stabilise the pH in the reactor if the water
> > used have a very lov Kh, but for normal (higher that 4 Kh) water baking
> soda
> > actually makes the conditions for the yeast worse but might prolong the
> > reaction somewhat purely because some of the yeast will die because of
the
> > higner pH in the reactor.
> >
> >
> >
> > I hope this came through as i thought it, if not please dont hesitate to
> ask
> > further questions :-)
> >
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Morten
> > ----
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > Version: 6.0.611 / Virus Database: 391 - Release Date: 03/03/2004
> >
> >
>
>

[Morten]

Ken,

"Ken Pinard" > wrote in message
...
> Hi nice explanation, I do have a couple of questions. Mostly for my own
> curious mind.
>
> Since Baking Soda is Basic will it not raise the pH? I know we used it in
> chemistry to neutralize the acids (even the stuff I dropped all of the
> floor, what a mess ;o)
>
> But since Baking Soda raises the kH, the amount of CO2 that is held in the
> water solution will be higher. Thus creating carbonic acid. Which will
lower
> the pH.


You are off course right, Baking Soda is a base and will raise the pH in the
solution which is why it's taking part of the buffer with the carbonic acid
that's gets created when the CO2 gets into solution.

What I was trying to say was that if the pH gets to high the yeast will die
so be carefull if you have very soft water when adding Baking Soda to the
water / sugar / yeast mixture if you insist on using it.


> As I ponder the effect of alcohol on yeast, while I drink a little wine, I
> am wondering what additive can combine with alcohol that will not kill the
> yeast or react with CO2? I imagine that the idea has been explored
before.
> I just was curious.

Hmmm, you could properly remove some of the alcohol using activated charcoal
to absorb it, but I'm not sure how the yeast will react to that!


I would think that if you were trying to prolong the proceess you could
lover the temperature a little because the enzymes that the yeast are using
to break down the sugar to alcohol + CO2 are temperature dependent ie,
higher temperature => faster reaction, but keep in mind that the rest of the
yeast cell still has to be kept alive so there would be some limitations as
to low you could go before the yeast dies / hybernates.

Anyone up for some experimentation, something like a controlled temperature
of the reactor and a measurement of the speed of the process. Speed could be
determined by weighing the bottle at start and then daily on a precise scale
because the CO2 will leave the system (reactor) and decrease the weight of
the reactor.


Any takers?




I've weighed the last bottle I set up when it was started last weekend but I
havent done anything to control the temperature, but because I know that the
final alcohol content shouldn't kill the yeast I can assume that all the
sugar will be converted to alcohol and CO2 by weighing the bottle from time
to time I can find when the reaction is finished.



It has been a very long day and I should properly have waited til I was a
little bit more clear headed than now :-)


Regards

Morten






---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.611 / Virus Database: 391 - Release Date: 03/03/2004

[Harry Muscle]

"Ken Pinard" > wrote in message
...
> Ok, now I am getting even more curious,
>
> Do you happen to know the volume of 2 mols of CO2? How about the
volume
> of single bubble from a 1/4" (standard) air line?
>
> Yeh, I've gone off the deep end. I was just thinking that I might be
> able to guess the length that a solution could survive and how much CO2
> would be available for the tank during that time. Basically, the it won't
> change the how often I change the bott , ut I started in Chemistry in
> college because I found the numbers intriguing.
>
> Thank you again,
>
> Ken Pinard
>

1 mole of CO2 occupies 22.4 litres of space, so 2 moles would be 44.8
litres. The volume of a bubble with a diam f 1/4" (0.635cm) is 0.134
cm2.

So 44.8 litres is 44800 cm2 divide that by 0.134 cm2 you get 334328.36
bubbles.

Hope that helps, and let me know if I made any mistakes.

Harry

P.S. I double checked my math and it seems alright, but I'm curious if
there's some mistake somewhere, cause that many bubbles, at 1 bubble per
second would only last about 3-4 days. It might have something to do with
the fact that bubbles from 1/4" tubing will be smaller than 1/4".




-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

[Morten]

Ken,

"Ken Pinard" > wrote in message
...
> Ok, now I am getting even more curious,
>
> Do you happen to know the volume of 2 mols of CO2? How about the
volume
> of single bubble from a 1/4" (standard) air line?


Well, any ideal gas will have a volume of 22.4 L/mol at 298 Kelvin (25
degrees Celcius) so 44.8 L for 2 mol CO2

Given the example with 200 g sugar and 2.2203 mol CO2 it would give 2.2203
mol * 22.4 L/mol = 49.734 L from 200g sugar at 1 bar.


The exact formula is the ideal gas law: pV=nrT where p=pressure, V=volume,
n=mol gas, r=gas constant and T=temperature in Kelvin. At p=1 bar this gives
V=nrT


I can't find my maths book so I cant remember how to calculate the volume of
a bubble or a ball if we assume that a bubble is ball shaped, it's not but I
think it's close enough :-)


Does anybody remember this or have a old maths book handy?


Regards

Morten


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.611 / Virus Database: 391 - Release Date: 03/03/2004

[Harry Muscle]

"Morten" > wrote in message
...
> Ken,
>
> "Ken Pinard" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Ok, now I am getting even more curious,
> >
> > Do you happen to know the volume of 2 mols of CO2? How about the
> volume
> > of single bubble from a 1/4" (standard) air line?
>
>
> Well, any ideal gas will have a volume of 22.4 L/mol at 298 Kelvin (25
> degrees Celcius) so 44.8 L for 2 mol CO2
>
> Given the example with 200 g sugar and 2.2203 mol CO2 it would give 2.2203
> mol * 22.4 L/mol = 49.734 L from 200g sugar at 1 bar.
>
>
> The exact formula is the ideal gas law: pV=nrT where p=pressure, V=volume,
> n=mol gas, r=gas constant and T=temperature in Kelvin. At p=1 bar this
gives
> V=nrT
>
>
> I can't find my maths book so I cant remember how to calculate the volume
of
> a bubble or a ball if we assume that a bubble is ball shaped, it's not but
I
> think it's close enough :-)
>
>
> Does anybody remember this or have a old maths book handy?
>
>
> Regards
>
> Morten
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.611 / Virus Database: 391 - Release Date: 03/03/2004
>
>

According to google the volume of a sphere is 4/3 * pi * r^3.

Harry




-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

[Ken Pinard]

I took out my magnifying glass and my daughters plastic ruler and came up
with the opening at .4 cm. So redoing the math you put forword (thank you by
the way):

volume=4/3*pi*r3
..4 cm opening creats a bubble of (4/3*3.14159 * (.2*.2*.2) = .0335 cm3
and the number of days:
44800 cm3/.0335cm2 = 1336902.6 bubbles then at 1/sec = 15.5 days

Of course this assumes all CO2 is released. All sugar is converted and the
yeast does not die in its own creations. But it does say that the maximum it
will last at 1/sec is 15 days. So depending on tempature the rate of
production can be changed. thus changing the length that the generator will
work. This of course is avoiding the discussion of the other variables of
alochol posioning of the yeast and CO2 concentration in the solution.

As the great philospher Col. Klink said "Very Interesting".

Thank you for the information, it definitly helps me understand what is
going on.

Ken

Useful: http://grapevine.abe.msstate.edu/~fto/calculator/index.html

"Harry Muscle" > wrote in message
...
> "Ken Pinard" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Ok, now I am getting even more curious,
> >
> > Do you happen to know the volume of 2 mols of CO2? How about the
> volume
> > of single bubble from a 1/4" (standard) air line?
> >
> > Yeh, I've gone off the deep end. I was just thinking that I might be
> > able to guess the length that a solution could survive and how much CO2
> > would be available for the tank during that time. Basically, the it
won't
> > change the how often I change the bott , ut I started in Chemistry in
> > college because I found the numbers intriguing.
> >
> > Thank you again,
> >
> > Ken Pinard
> >
>
> 1 mole of CO2 occupies 22.4 litres of space, so 2 moles would be 44.8
> litres. The volume of a bubble with a diam f 1/4" (0.635cm) is 0.134
> cm2.

>
> So 44.8 litres is 44800 cm2 divide that by 0.134 cm2 you get 334328.36
> bubbles.
44800/.0335 = 1336902.6 bubbles at 1/sec = 15.5 days
>
> Hope that helps, and let me know if I made any mistakes.
>
> Harry
>
> P.S. I double checked my math and it seems alright, but I'm curious if
> there's some mistake somewhere, cause that many bubbles, at 1 bubble per
> second would only last about 3-4 days. It might have something to do with
> the fact that bubbles from 1/4" tubing will be smaller than 1/4".
>
>
>
>
> -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

[Ken Pinard]

Morten,
Sorry, I meant to say the Baking soda would raise the pH. So much for
typing and installing operating systems at the same time :)

Thanks again for the information I truely enjoyed it.

Ken

"Morten" > wrote in message
...
> Ken,
>
> "Ken Pinard" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Hi nice explanation, I do have a couple of questions. Mostly for my own
> > curious mind.
> >
> > Since Baking Soda is Basic will it not raise the pH? I know we used it
in
> > chemistry to neutralize the acids (even the stuff I dropped all of the
> > floor, what a mess ;o)
> >
> > But since Baking Soda raises the kH, the amount of CO2 that is held in
the
> > water solution will be higher. Thus creating carbonic acid. Which will
> lower
> > the pH.
>
>
> You are off course right, Baking Soda is a base and will raise the pH in
the
> solution which is why it's taking part of the buffer with the carbonic
acid
> that's gets created when the CO2 gets into solution.
>
> What I was trying to say was that if the pH gets to high the yeast will
die
> so be carefull if you have very soft water when adding Baking Soda to the
> water / sugar / yeast mixture if you insist on using it.
>
>
> > As I ponder the effect of alcohol on yeast, while I drink a little wine,
I
> > am wondering what additive can combine with alcohol that will not kill
the
> > yeast or react with CO2? I imagine that the idea has been explored
> before.
> > I just was curious.
>
> Hmmm, you could properly remove some of the alcohol using activated
charcoal
> to absorb it, but I'm not sure how the yeast will react to that!
>
>
> I would think that if you were trying to prolong the proceess you could
> lover the temperature a little because the enzymes that the yeast are
using
> to break down the sugar to alcohol + CO2 are temperature dependent ie,
> higher temperature => faster reaction, but keep in mind that the rest of
the
> yeast cell still has to be kept alive so there would be some limitations
as
> to low you could go before the yeast dies / hybernates.
>
> Anyone up for some experimentation, something like a controlled
temperature
> of the reactor and a measurement of the speed of the process. Speed could
be
> determined by weighing the bottle at start and then daily on a precise
scale
> because the CO2 will leave the system (reactor) and decrease the weight of
> the reactor.
>
>
> Any takers?
>
>
>
>
> I've weighed the last bottle I set up when it was started last weekend but
I
> havent done anything to control the temperature, but because I know that
the
> final alcohol content shouldn't kill the yeast I can assume that all the
> sugar will be converted to alcohol and CO2 by weighing the bottle from
time
> to time I can find when the reaction is finished.
>
>
>
> It has been a very long day and I should properly have waited til I was a
> little bit more clear headed than now :-)
>
>
> Regards
>
> Morten
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.611 / Virus Database: 391 - Release Date: 03/03/2004
>
>

[bannor]

On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 18:35:05 -0000, "Morten" >
wrote:
<snip>
>The addition of baking soda (2NaHCO3) will not lower the amount of alcohol
>(CH3CH2OH) on the solution unless you put so much if in there that it lovers
>the pH too much below 5 effectually killing the yeast before it gets a
>chance to convert the sugar (C6H12O6) to CO2
>
>The chemical reaction (or at least the end result of the yeast's reduction
>of sugar goes like this:
>
>C6H12O6(aq) => 2(CH3CH2OH(aq)) + 2(CO2(g)) + energy (used by yeast)
>
>so, for each mol of sugar you get 2 mol of CO2 and because the molar weight
>of sugar is 180.1572 g/mol and the molar weight of CO2 is 44.0098 g/mol, you
>will get (2 * 44.0098 g/mol) / 180.1572 g/mol = 0.4886 g CO2 for each g og
>sugar.
>
>This is max you can get but because some of the CO2 will stay in the water
>in the yeast reactor you will get a little less than the 0.4886 g CO2 / g
>sugar mentioned above.
>
> Since the molar weight for alcohol (CH3CH2OH) is 46.0688 g/mol you will get
>(2 * 46.0688 g/mol) / (180.1572 g/mol) = 0.5114 g alcohol for each g sugar
>added to the reactor.
>
> But, because the alcohol will kill the yeast if the concentration gets to
>high (depending on which type of yeast is used, common baking yeast will
>start to die arround (7% - 8%) we need to make sure that the concentration
>of alcohol is low enough to make sure that all the sugar is consumed before
>the alcohol kills the yeast.
>
>If using 2.0L of water (H2O) = 2000g and 220g og sugar the end concentration
>will be (0.4886 * 220 g ) / (2000 g + 04886 * 220 g) = 0.0533 = 5.33 % which
>will alow the yeast to consume all the sugar and still survive the alcohol.
>
>Using 220 g of sugar this will yield 0.5114 * 220g = 112.5143 g alcohol and
>0.4886 * 220g = 107.4856 g CO2
>
>When all the sugar is gone the yeast will 'floculate' out of solution and
>sink to the bottom of the yeast container but will not die, so we can actual
>ly re-use the yeast every time we set up another batch of sugar if we
>carefully drains the water / alcohol solution from the container and don't
>rinse the container with very hot water killing the yeast in the process.
>
>In the long run it will benefit the yeast if we used a yeast nutrient (can
>be bought from home brewers shops) to feed the yeast the nutrients that the
>yeast needs to stay healthy for prolonged use.
>
>Because some of the CO2 stays in the water we have a buffer solution like
>this:
>CO2 + H2O <=> H+(aq) + HCO3-(aq)
>
>This process is dependent on temperature and the specific wapor pressure of
>CO2 in the container and the water, but i can't remember how to calculate
>the exact ammount of CO2 in solition given the pressure / temperature of the
>solution, so I'll ignore this bit :-)
>
>When adding baking soda you effectively increases the kH of the solution
>which loveres the pH making the environment a little more hostile to the
>yeast. If i remember correctly yeast prefers a pH of 5 to 6, but will
>survive 4 to 9, so there are some room for pH swings before the yeast gives
>up.
>
>This reaction goes like this:
>2NaHCO3 + H2O <=> 2Na+(aq) + 2HCO3-(aq)
>
>Baking soda can be added to stabilise the pH in the reactor if the water
>used have a very lov Kh, but for normal (higher that 4 Kh) water baking soda
>actually makes the conditions for the yeast worse but might prolong the
>reaction somewhat purely because some of the yeast will die because of the
>higner pH in the reactor.
>
>I hope this came through as i thought it, if not please dont hesitate to ask
>further questions :-)
>Regards
>Morten


Wow... thanks Morten!... This is definately a keeper and I think your
explanation is easier to read than the one that was provided in that
other link...which I remember reading during my investigations of
going DIY CO2... I guess I just didn't pay close enough attention to
the chemistry details.

My suggestion regarding adding the baking soda came from reading that
suggestion at 'the Krib' in the DIY CO2 notes etc... guess it was just
an old fishkeepers tale. I have always added it, just a little to
each mixture... now, I can save that extra step. I was, apparently
falsely, under the impression that the baking soda would adsorb the
alcohol. Oh well... I never took chemistry... never made it past 10th
grade, got kicked out of school for knocking down the principal when
he started calling a female student names that I doubt you would hear
in a prison! Anyway, education since has been non graduate level,
independant studies in college. IE, no class requirements, just going
for the knowledge, not the credits to get a degree and since I have no
practical use for chemistry, I never bothered to take those sorts of
courses... I may have to add some basic chemistry in over the next
couple semesters....

[bannor]

<snip>
>>The only time I ever had a leak from the 2 liter bottles was when it
>>was knocked over on it's side... the pressure from the CO2 forced the
>>fluid up into tank... fortunately I caught it before I lost too much
>>fluid... of course, it was a mess to clean up... i had to force bleach
>>through the tubing, bubble counter etc then flush it very well with
>>clear water and start the whole system back up again. I lost about
>>1/4 cup total fluid up into my tubing etc, so less than that actually
>>made it into the tank.. fish etc survived well, but I made a 30% water
>>change that day and the following day just to be safe.
>>
>>I have seen someone advertising acrylic racks for holding 2 2 liter
>>bottles on aquabid... that will probably be my next purchase, 3 or 4
>>of those should suffice for my current setups...
>
>I have experienced the same problem with 2 liter pop bottles falling over. The
>problem is the bottom is not a very stable surface. To solve this, I switched
>to 1/2 gal plastic juice bottles. They have a flat bottom that doesn't tip
>easily and they are made of a much more sturdy plastic. And fruit juice is
>better for you than pop, didn't your mom ever teach you this?
>Nick Wise

Hmmm.... yeah but... I like my rum-n-cokes! Of course, I guess I
could change that to something more fruity and use juice instead!

[John W]

All the chemistry is good but theCO2 production by the yeast is not a linear
function, but that of a bell shaped curved- slow at first, rapid increase
until a plateau is reached, then at some point a rapid decrease.

The time frame of the curve depends on the organism, media (sugar and other
ingredients) and volume.

"Harry Muscle" > wrote in message
...
> "Ken Pinard" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Ok, now I am getting even more curious,
> >
> > Do you happen to know the volume of 2 mols of CO2? How about the
> volume
> > of single bubble from a 1/4" (standard) air line?
> >
> > Yeh, I've gone off the deep end. I was just thinking that I might be
> > able to guess the length that a solution could survive and how much CO2
> > would be available for the tank during that time. Basically, the it
won't
> > change the how often I change the bott , ut I started in Chemistry in
> > college because I found the numbers intriguing.
> >
> > Thank you again,
> >
> > Ken Pinard
> >
>
> 1 mole of CO2 occupies 22.4 litres of space, so 2 moles would be 44.8
> litres. The volume of a bubble with a diam f 1/4" (0.635cm) is 0.134
> cm2.
>
> So 44.8 litres is 44800 cm2 divide that by 0.134 cm2 you get 334328.36
> bubbles.
>
> Hope that helps, and let me know if I made any mistakes.
>
> Harry
>
> P.S. I double checked my math and it seems alright, but I'm curious if
> there's some mistake somewhere, cause that many bubbles, at 1 bubble per
> second would only last about 3-4 days. It might have something to do with
> the fact that bubbles from 1/4" tubing will be smaller than 1/4".
>
>
>
>
> -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----