Need Help!! Phosphate readings off the chart!

[Nick D]

Hi...
I just picked up a new Hagen Nitrate and Phosphate test kit for my
29gal. I just re-started my tank with fresh gravel and new plants and
lights. I have 95watts, and DIY C02. I also completed a 50% water
change yesterday, and another 25% waterchange today, because of a
small thread/ hair algae outbreak. So I wanted to make sure my water
was clean before testing. The tank has been running for 6 weeks,
cycled and has a good bacteria load going for sure. Maintenance is
kept up religiously. Plants were growing for a couple of weeks, but
are showing signs of slowing down, and yellowing.

Readings are as follows: (after water change)
Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrate: 0-5ppm
Phosphate: 5ppm+
K:??
Nitrite: 0ppm
PH: 7.0
GH: 8deg
Kh: 9deg
c02: ~20ppm
temp:78
Fish load minimal: (4 Cardinals, Pleco, and a Cory)


Problem here is obviously the Phosphate!! I tested my tap water and it
came back zero. Then I did a test in the tank (after the water
change), and it was off the scale?!! I dont get it! Something is
really leaking Phosphate into my tank...and I dont know what? I have
fertilizer spikes under the plants which have Phosphate in them, but
they are way under the gravel and are never disturbed.

Someone told me that Activated Carbon in your filter releases
Phosphate, but I found that hard to believe as Activated Carbon is
supposed to suck up nutrients rather than release them right???

I'm really stuck on this one! Can anyone give a list of possible
sources of Phosphate, that I might not be considering. At present, I
am not dosing any ferts, and havent since start up. The phosphate just
magically appears for no reason!

Thx in advance,
Nick.

[N. Wise]

From: (Nick D)

>Hi...
>I just picked up a new Hagen Nitrate and Phosphate test kit for my
>29gal. I just re-started my tank with fresh gravel and new plants and
>lights. I have 95watts, and DIY C02. I also completed a 50% water
>change yesterday, and another 25% waterchange today, because of a
>small thread/ hair algae outbreak. So I wanted to make sure my water
>was clean before testing. The tank has been running for 6 weeks,
>cycled and has a good bacteria load going for sure. Maintenance is
>kept up religiously. Plants were growing for a couple of weeks, but
>are showing signs of slowing down, and yellowing.
>
>Readings are as follows: (after water change)
>Ammonia: 0ppm
>Nitrate: 0-5ppm
>Phosphate: 5ppm+
>K:??
>Nitrite: 0ppm
>PH: 7.0
>GH: 8deg
>Kh: 9deg
>c02: ~20ppm
>temp:78
>Fish load minimal: (4 Cardinals, Pleco, and a Cory)
>
>
>Problem here is obviously the Phosphate!! I tested my tap water and it
>came back zero. Then I did a test in the tank (after the water
>change), and it was off the scale?!! I dont get it! Something is
>really leaking Phosphate into my tank...and I dont know what? I have
>fertilizer spikes under the plants which have Phosphate in them, but
>they are way under the gravel and are never disturbed.
>
>Someone told me that Activated Carbon in your filter releases
>Phosphate, but I found that hard to believe as Activated Carbon is
>supposed to suck up nutrients rather than release them right???
>
>I'm really stuck on this one! Can anyone give a list of possible
>sources of Phosphate, that I might not be considering. At present, I
>am not dosing any ferts, and havent since start up. The phosphate just
>magically appears for no reason!
>
>Thx in advance,
>Nick.

A good temporary fix is to buy some Phos-Zorb and and put the pouch in your
filter. But you really need to find the cause. The most obvious suspect is
over-feeding.


Nick Wise
http://members.aol.com/nwwise01

[Happy'Cam'per]

Hi there

Ditch one of your tubes, 3.5 watts per gallon is a tad on the bright side.
Try 2 WPG or near to there. Your co2 is not keeping up (20ppm) with this
ammount of light. Maybe cut an hour out of the photo period aswell.

Ditch the activated carbon aswell, no use for it in a planted tank. You
might be TOO RELIGIOUS with your maintenance routine :) , Are you adding
Nitrates back to the tank after water changes? If your N is 0-5ppm then your
plants are starving. There is a relationship between N & P, I would say that
your Nitrates are being used up too quickly therefore leaving the available
Phosphate to float around the water column...

IME Root stix are a disaster, this may be adding to the phosphate levels you
report. Try and vacuum some of them out. If your tank is only 6 weeks old
you might want to give it a bit of time until you have some mulm build up
before seeing any good signs in the plants! You will have to start dosing
Macro ferts in the water column as I think your gravel may still be a bit
sterile for plants to inhabit happily.

You must start adding ferts asap, your plants are starving.
Go to the pharmacy/drug store/chemist and buy the following:
But before adding ferts, ALWAYS make sure that your co2 levels are high and
are stable. Add another bottle if you have to, according to Tom Barr you
want to shoot for about 30ppm in the morning and try and keep it there, if
you are at 20ppm in the evening this would be ok.
Salt Petre (Pottassium Nitrate or KNO3) dose 1 level teaspoon twice a week.
This will take care of Pottassium aswell as Nitrates. No-Salt contains
Pottassium Chloride and could be added as an extra dose but probably not
necessary.
You can get fleet enema as a phosphate source (when your levels come down),
dose 3 drops twice weekly.
You can use Epsom salts as a Magnesium source, Or dolomite pills/powder as a
calcium & Magnesium source at the correct ratios. Im not sure about the
dosing quantity for this one, I let the plants indicate a calcium deficiency
by looking at the leaves on Hygro Polysperma, they get "wrinkled".
Of course not to forget your micro ferts which can be bought at any LFS,
take your pick, I've used Kent and Sera ferts and they seem to work well!

Hows that for a long winded post ;)
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**



"Nick D" > wrote in message
om...
> Hi...
> I just picked up a new Hagen Nitrate and Phosphate test kit for my
> 29gal. I just re-started my tank with fresh gravel and new plants and
> lights. I have 95watts, and DIY C02. I also completed a 50% water
> change yesterday, and another 25% waterchange today, because of a
> small thread/ hair algae outbreak. So I wanted to make sure my water
> was clean before testing. The tank has been running for 6 weeks,
> cycled and has a good bacteria load going for sure. Maintenance is
> kept up religiously. Plants were growing for a couple of weeks, but
> are showing signs of slowing down, and yellowing.
>
> Readings are as follows: (after water change)
> Ammonia: 0ppm
> Nitrate: 0-5ppm
> Phosphate: 5ppm+
> K:??
> Nitrite: 0ppm
> PH: 7.0
> GH: 8deg
> Kh: 9deg
> c02: ~20ppm
> temp:78
> Fish load minimal: (4 Cardinals, Pleco, and a Cory)
>
>
> Problem here is obviously the Phosphate!! I tested my tap water and it
> came back zero. Then I did a test in the tank (after the water
> change), and it was off the scale?!! I dont get it! Something is
> really leaking Phosphate into my tank...and I dont know what? I have
> fertilizer spikes under the plants which have Phosphate in them, but
> they are way under the gravel and are never disturbed.
>
> Someone told me that Activated Carbon in your filter releases
> Phosphate, but I found that hard to believe as Activated Carbon is
> supposed to suck up nutrients rather than release them right???
>
> I'm really stuck on this one! Can anyone give a list of possible
> sources of Phosphate, that I might not be considering. At present, I
> am not dosing any ferts, and havent since start up. The phosphate just
> magically appears for no reason!
>
> Thx in advance,
> Nick.

[Nemo]

In addition to light and CO2, plants need nutrients to grow. Nutrients are
divided into two categories:
Macro Nutrients: Nitrogen, Phosphate, & Nitrogen
Micro Nutrients: Trace elements (iron, zinc, etc ..)

In the presence of good light and CO2 levels, the plants will grow until one
or more nutrients is expended. At that time, they will stop growing (and
consuming nutrients) even though other nutrients are abundant.

In your case, the limiting nutrient seems to be Nitrogen (nitrate levels are
very low). It is understandable that your plants stopped growing or slowed
down. Unfortunately, unlike plants, algae can fix its own nitrogen and can
therefore continue to grow in the absence of nitrogen as long as the
remaining nutrients are available (all in the presence of light and CO2).

Therefore, what you need to do is make sure that there is ample supply of
nitrogen (as nitrate), potassium and trace elements. Eventually, all of the
available phosphate is consumed by the plants (and algae) and phosphate
becomes the growth limiting factor. At that stage, your plants -being the
dominant macro organisms- will be able to out-compete the algae for the
available phosphate. The algae disappears.

In summary

- Add Nitrate to 5-10 ppm - raise the level slowly over a course of a week
(after you have dealt with the excess phosphate)
- Add Trace elements using a kit like SeaChem Flourish
- Some people suggest the addition of potassium as K2S04 or KCl to make sure
potassium is in ample supply
- Maintain your current levels of light and CO2

Your phosphate levels should always be near zero (0). If growth becomes too
hindered, you can control it using very small doses of phosphate from a
source such as fish food or fleet enema

In the short term, however, you need to reduce your phosphates in order to
arrest the algae bloom using one of the available products on the market.

And, get rid of the carbon filter, it absorbs your micro nutrients (trace
elements) making them the limiting growth factor.

Don't forget the weekly 25% + water changes to dilute any excess nutrients
you've added to ensure they are in ample supply.

[RedForeman ©®]

> Hi there
>
> Ditch one of your tubes, 3.5 watts per gallon is a tad on the bright
> side. Try 2 WPG or near to there. Your co2 is not keeping up (20ppm)
> with this ammount of light. Maybe cut an hour out of the photo period
> aswell.
>
> Ditch the activated carbon aswell, no use for it in a planted tank.
> You might be TOO RELIGIOUS with your maintenance routine :) , Are you
> adding Nitrates back to the tank after water changes? If your N is
> 0-5ppm then your plants are starving. There is a relationship between
> N & P, I would say that your Nitrates are being used up too quickly
> therefore leaving the available Phosphate to float around the water
> column...
>
> IME Root stix are a disaster, this may be adding to the phosphate
> levels you report. Try and vacuum some of them out. If your tank is
> only 6 weeks old you might want to give it a bit of time until you
> have some mulm build up before seeing any good signs in the plants!
> You will have to start dosing Macro ferts in the water column as I
> think your gravel may still be a bit sterile for plants to inhabit
> happily.
>
> You must start adding ferts asap, your plants are starving.
> Go to the pharmacy/drug store/chemist and buy the following:
> But before adding ferts, ALWAYS make sure that your co2 levels are
> high and are stable. Add another bottle if you have to, according to
> Tom Barr you want to shoot for about 30ppm in the morning and try and
> keep it there, if you are at 20ppm in the evening this would be ok.
> Salt Petre (Pottassium Nitrate or KNO3) dose 1 level teaspoon twice a
> week. This will take care of Pottassium aswell as Nitrates. No-Salt
> contains Pottassium Chloride and could be added as an extra dose but
> probably not necessary.
> You can get fleet enema as a phosphate source (when your levels come
> down), dose 3 drops twice weekly.
> You can use Epsom salts as a Magnesium source, Or dolomite
> pills/powder as a calcium & Magnesium source at the correct ratios.
> Im not sure about the dosing quantity for this one, I let the plants
> indicate a calcium deficiency by looking at the leaves on Hygro
> Polysperma, they get "wrinkled".
> Of course not to forget your micro ferts which can be bought at any
> LFS, take your pick, I've used Kent and Sera ferts and they seem to
> work well!
>
> Hows that for a long winded post ;)

Cam, I had to thank you for that explanation... I've saved it because I want
to use it later, it will add to my pile of useful info I've collected over
the years...

and Nemo, you're post has also been saved....Thanks.

--
RedForeman ©®
Sorry about the troll, the ball is rolling there....

[Giancarlo Podio]

If it's not in the tap water then your plant spikes are leaking
phosphates. How thick is the substrate and what kind of plant sticks
are you using? Also what kind of gravel do you have? (the larger the
grain the easier it is for elements to come out of the substrates).
Everything else sounds good to me.

Hope that helps
Giancarlo Podio

(Nick D) wrote in message >...
> Hi...
> I just picked up a new Hagen Nitrate and Phosphate test kit for my
> 29gal. I just re-started my tank with fresh gravel and new plants and
> lights. I have 95watts, and DIY C02. I also completed a 50% water
> change yesterday, and another 25% waterchange today, because of a
> small thread/ hair algae outbreak. So I wanted to make sure my water
> was clean before testing. The tank has been running for 6 weeks,
> cycled and has a good bacteria load going for sure. Maintenance is
> kept up religiously. Plants were growing for a couple of weeks, but
> are showing signs of slowing down, and yellowing.
>
> Readings are as follows: (after water change)
> Ammonia: 0ppm
> Nitrate: 0-5ppm
> Phosphate: 5ppm+
> K:??
> Nitrite: 0ppm
> PH: 7.0
> GH: 8deg
> Kh: 9deg
> c02: ~20ppm
> temp:78
> Fish load minimal: (4 Cardinals, Pleco, and a Cory)
>
>
> Problem here is obviously the Phosphate!! I tested my tap water and it
> came back zero. Then I did a test in the tank (after the water
> change), and it was off the scale?!! I dont get it! Something is
> really leaking Phosphate into my tank...and I dont know what? I have
> fertilizer spikes under the plants which have Phosphate in them, but
> they are way under the gravel and are never disturbed.
>
> Someone told me that Activated Carbon in your filter releases
> Phosphate, but I found that hard to believe as Activated Carbon is
> supposed to suck up nutrients rather than release them right???
>
> I'm really stuck on this one! Can anyone give a list of possible
> sources of Phosphate, that I might not be considering. At present, I
> am not dosing any ferts, and havent since start up. The phosphate just
> magically appears for no reason!
>
> Thx in advance,
> Nick.

[Happy'Cam'per]

No worries Red, it all comes from this group anyway, I've been here for a
year and I'm just beginning to understand the reasoning behind all the
methods!
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**



"RedForeman ©®" > wrote in message
...

>
> Cam, I had to thank you for that explanation... I've saved it because I
want
> to use it later, it will add to my pile of useful info I've collected over
> the years...
>
> and Nemo, you're post has also been saved....Thanks.

[Nick D]

(Giancarlo Podio) wrote in message >...
> If it's not in the tap water then your plant spikes are leaking
> phosphates. How thick is the substrate and what kind of plant sticks
> are you using? Also what kind of gravel do you have? (the larger the
> grain the easier it is for elements to come out of the substrates).
> Everything else sounds good to me.
>
> Hope that helps
> Giancarlo Podio


Hey...
So last night, I did a another 50% water change. Filled the tank
again, and did another 50% to dilute the phosphate again. It kinda
half worked. The readings came down to around 2.5ppm from over 5ppm. I
also took all the carbon out of my Penguin filter insert, and took all
those damn Nutrafin spikes out. I looked at the box again and the
reading were 16-9-12 (NPK). That doesnt seem like a 10:1 ratio to me!
And on the back there was two different sources of phosphate.

I also cut the lights back by 60% (turned off the power compact),
until I can get my ratios right. I hope that doesnt kill my plants. I
added some N as the readings were zero after those huge water changes.
Readings were at 5ppm this morning, added a bit more before leaving
for work. When I can get them up to 10 or more I'll turn the light
back on.

I think I need more fish too. My plants are eating my Nitrates faster
than my fish can produce them. With 95watts over 29gallons, I will
need some heavy fert dosing. I rather just have more fish to help out!

Keep you posted on the progress
Nick D








> (Nick D) wrote in message >...
> > Hi...
> > I just picked up a new Hagen Nitrate and Phosphate test kit for my
> > 29gal. I just re-started my tank with fresh gravel and new plants and
> > lights. I have 95watts, and DIY C02. I also completed a 50% water
> > change yesterday, and another 25% waterchange today, because of a
> > small thread/ hair algae outbreak. So I wanted to make sure my water
> > was clean before testing. The tank has been running for 6 weeks,
> > cycled and has a good bacteria load going for sure. Maintenance is
> > kept up religiously. Plants were growing for a couple of weeks, but
> > are showing signs of slowing down, and yellowing.
> >
> > Readings are as follows: (after water change)
> > Ammonia: 0ppm
> > Nitrate: 0-5ppm
> > Phosphate: 5ppm+
> > K:??
> > Nitrite: 0ppm
> > PH: 7.0
> > GH: 8deg
> > Kh: 9deg
> > c02: ~20ppm
> > temp:78
> > Fish load minimal: (4 Cardinals, Pleco, and a Cory)
> >
> >
> > Problem here is obviously the Phosphate!! I tested my tap water and it
> > came back zero. Then I did a test in the tank (after the water
> > change), and it was off the scale?!! I dont get it! Something is
> > really leaking Phosphate into my tank...and I dont know what? I have
> > fertilizer spikes under the plants which have Phosphate in them, but
> > they are way under the gravel and are never disturbed.
> >
> > Someone told me that Activated Carbon in your filter releases
> > Phosphate, but I found that hard to believe as Activated Carbon is
> > supposed to suck up nutrients rather than release them right???
> >
> > I'm really stuck on this one! Can anyone give a list of possible
> > sources of Phosphate, that I might not be considering. At present, I
> > am not dosing any ferts, and havent since start up. The phosphate just
> > magically appears for no reason!
> >
> > Thx in advance,
> > Nick.

[Bill Kirkpatrick]

Many Carbons are indeed loaded with Phosphate and they will
leach it into your tank.

All too few repackagers label this fact, even though the
bulk carbon will usually come with the information. Many
change suppliers and they aren't always willing to pay the
premium for using a specified carbon.

To test yours you need to put some in a jar with distilled,
or R/O, water, about 50/50 by volume, let sit overnight, and
test the water.

If the carbon water tests positive, you have three choices.

One, live with it, just limit your use.

Two, soak the carbon in a bucket of water (1g carbon in a 5g
bucket of clean water). Soak 24 hours, stir occasionally,
rinse well, than to be sure, soak again. Test the water
from the second soaking. Some are very bad and may need
multiple soakings.

Three, ditch the carbon you have and find a more suitable brand.

Then think about whomever sold you this non-aquarium grade
garbage to you, and wonder if they still deserve your business.

*********************************
(Nick D) wrote in message
>...

>>Someone told me that Activated Carbon in your filter releases
>>Phosphate, but I found that hard to believe as Activated Carbon is
>>supposed to suck up nutrients rather than release them right???

[N. Wise]

From: Bill Kirkpatrick

>Many Carbons are indeed loaded with Phosphate and they will
> leach it into your tank.
>
>All too few repackagers label this fact, even though the
>bulk carbon will usually come with the information. Many
>change suppliers and they aren't always willing to pay the
>premium for using a specified carbon.
>
>To test yours you need to put some in a jar with distilled,
>or R/O, water, about 50/50 by volume, let sit overnight, and
>test the water.
>
>If the carbon water tests positive, you have three choices.
>
>One, live with it, just limit your use.
>
>Two, soak the carbon in a bucket of water (1g carbon in a 5g
>bucket of clean water). Soak 24 hours, stir occasionally,
>rinse well, than to be sure, soak again. Test the water
>from the second soaking. Some are very bad and may need
>multiple soakings.
>
>Three, ditch the carbon you have and find a more suitable brand.
>
>Then think about whomever sold you this non-aquarium grade
>garbage to you, and wonder if they still deserve your business.

You forgot about option four

Don't use carbon at all. In a tank with good plant growth, there is no need
for activated carbon. I haven't used it in years.


Nick Wise
http://members.aol.com/nwwise01

[RedForeman ©®]

> Many Carbons are indeed loaded with Phosphate and they will
> leach it into your tank.

Bill, you said this, and it was like a light went off....

What about Flourish Excel, does it have any phosphates in it?
--
RedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike
streetfighter!!!

==========================
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'98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
==========================
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meets the definition of a telephone fax machine. By Sec.227(b)(1)(C),
it is unlawful to send any unsolicited advertisement to such equipment.
By Sec.227(b)(3)(C), a violation of the aforementioned Section is
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whichever is greater, for each violation."

If you do send me unsolicited e-mail I will proof-read it at a rate
of $100 per hour (4 hour minimum).

[Mickle]

Try Rowaphos. It has a very food reputation for dealing with excess
phosphate. I ordered some myself. I was having problems with green water
for months and then bought a phosphate kit and discovered the cause.
Interestingly a good hoover of the gravel and getting rid of some old plants
saw the phosphate drop to acceptable levels before the Rowaphos arrived.