Re: One More Plant Fertilizer Question

[NetMax]

"jonboy" > wrote in message
et...
> My LFS sold me Hagen Plant Grow spikes. They claim that they will last
1
> year after they are activated. Anyway, the sticks contain phosphates:
Here
> are the contents:
>
> Total Nitrogen: 16%
> 7.5% Ammonical Nitrogen
> 8.5% Nitrate Nitrogen
> Available Phosphates 9%
> Soluble Phosphates 12%
> Iron .45%
>
> Anyway, these spikes have several other trace elements. My concern is
that
> I'm adding phosphates to my water and not enough iron. Should I pull
these
> plant tabs and buy Seachem Flourish tabs. I don't want to change my
> substrate and thought that the tabs would work better then a liquid
that you
> pour in to the water. I could really use some advice.
>
> Thanks

If you get some Flourish tabs, post the ingredients. Also list the trace
elements in the Hagen plant grow spikes.

I have some Jobe's food spikes here (for ferns, 16-2-6)
Total nitrogen: 16%
2% Nitrate nitrogen
10.5% water insoluble nitrogen
3.5% urea nitrogen
available phosphoric acid (P2O5) 2%
soluble potash (K2O) 6%
derived from ureaformaldehyde nitrogen, triple superphosphate, potassium
nitrate.

I'm going to rumble your post over to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants.
That's where the experts on this hang out.

NetMax

[Nick D]

"NetMax" > wrote in message >...
> "jonboy" > wrote in message
> et...
> > My LFS sold me Hagen Plant Grow spikes. They claim that they will last
> 1
> > year after they are activated. Anyway, the sticks contain phosphates:
> Here
> > are the contents:
> >
> > Total Nitrogen: 16%
> > 7.5% Ammonical Nitrogen
> > 8.5% Nitrate Nitrogen
> > Available Phosphates 9%
> > Soluble Phosphates 12%
> > Iron .45%
> >
> > Anyway, these spikes have several other trace elements. My concern is
> that
> > I'm adding phosphates to my water and not enough iron. Should I pull
> these
> > plant tabs and buy Seachem Flourish tabs. I don't want to change my
> > substrate and thought that the tabs would work better then a liquid
> that you
> > pour in to the water. I could really use some advice.
> >
> > Thanks
>
> If you get some Flourish tabs, post the ingredients. Also list the trace
> elements in the Hagen plant grow spikes.
>
> I have some Jobe's food spikes here (for ferns, 16-2-6)
> Total nitrogen: 16%
> 2% Nitrate nitrogen
> 10.5% water insoluble nitrogen
> 3.5% urea nitrogen
> available phosphoric acid (P2O5) 2%
> soluble potash (K2O) 6%
> derived from ureaformaldehyde nitrogen, triple superphosphate, potassium
> nitrate.
>
> I'm going to rumble your post over to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants.
> That's where the experts on this hang out.
>
> NetMax

Hey...
Whatever you do, dont get the Nutrafin Plant Gro Spikes!!!! I had them
for a week and my Phosphate level went through the damn roof like a
rocket!! Went well over 5ppm. Luckily I was able to identify them as
the culprit and removed them. Now my ratios are all outa wack, and I
have Nutrafin Plant Gro Spikes to thank for it! Read the
ingredients...the NPK is NOT in a 10:1 ratio! I think, from my
experience, it will add more harm than good...try the Seachem if you
want...

You have been warned...
Nick

[[email protected]]

contents:
> > >
> > > Total Nitrogen: 16%
> > > 7.5% Ammonical Nitrogen
> > > 8.5% Nitrate Nitrogen
> Hey...
> Whatever you do, dont get the Nutrafin Plant Gro Spikes!!!! I had them
> for a week and my Phosphate level went through the damn roof like a
> rocket!! Went well over 5ppm. Luckily I was able to identify them as
> the culprit and removed them. Now my ratios are all outa wack, and I
> have Nutrafin Plant Gro Spikes to thank for it! Read the
> ingredients...the NPK is NOT in a 10:1 ratio! I think, from my
> experience, it will add more harm than good...try the Seachem if you
> want...
>
> You have been warned...
> Nick

Rather than reading anything about ratios read the part about
Ammonical Nitrogen====>> urea/NH4.

Try this, add KH2PO4 to 5ppm and then try adding .2ppm of NH4.
Keep C02 and the other paratrmeters the same for each run.

A bunch of PO4 will not do anything as far as algae presence but even
a small amount of NH4/urea will cause blooms.

We commnly add NO3, PO4, K and traces, the only thing missing is the
NH4/urea.

Therein lies the problem with terrestrial fertilizers, not PO4.
I commonly dose 1ppm of PO4, the algae has the same access as the
plants do, its entirely orthophosphate which in inorganic highly
available in the water column PO4. This level is maintained 0.5ppm to
1.0ppm or higher so algae certainly are not limited nor are the plants
in terms of PO4. Adding more is not going to give you more algae or
plants beyond their intital needs/storage.
Algae need far less nutrients than the plants do also.

N:P ratios for aquatic plants=> 10:1. FW algae=> 14:1.
More PO4 will favor the plants.

My tanks have no had algae issues for over decade. If you toss a jobes
stick into the water column you will get instant algae bloom.

It's simple enough to do and prove it to your self.

This is myth about PO4 = algae in planted tanks.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[NetMax]

" > wrote in message
om...
> contents:
> > > >
> > > > Total Nitrogen: 16%
> > > > 7.5% Ammonical Nitrogen
> > > > 8.5% Nitrate Nitrogen
> > Hey...
> > Whatever you do, dont get the Nutrafin Plant Gro Spikes!!!! I had
them
> > for a week and my Phosphate level went through the damn roof like a
> > rocket!! Went well over 5ppm. Luckily I was able to identify them as
> > the culprit and removed them. Now my ratios are all outa wack, and I
> > have Nutrafin Plant Gro Spikes to thank for it! Read the
> > ingredients...the NPK is NOT in a 10:1 ratio! I think, from my
> > experience, it will add more harm than good...try the Seachem if you
> > want...
> >
> > You have been warned...
> > Nick
>
> Rather than reading anything about ratios read the part about
> Ammonical Nitrogen====>> urea/NH4.
>
> Try this, add KH2PO4 to 5ppm and then try adding .2ppm of NH4.
> Keep C02 and the other paratrmeters the same for each run.
>
> A bunch of PO4 will not do anything as far as algae presence but even
> a small amount of NH4/urea will cause blooms.
>
> We commnly add NO3, PO4, K and traces, the only thing missing is the
> NH4/urea.
>
> Therein lies the problem with terrestrial fertilizers, not PO4.
> I commonly dose 1ppm of PO4, the algae has the same access as the
> plants do, its entirely orthophosphate which in inorganic highly
> available in the water column PO4. This level is maintained 0.5ppm to
> 1.0ppm or higher so algae certainly are not limited nor are the plants
> in terms of PO4. Adding more is not going to give you more algae or
> plants beyond their intital needs/storage.
> Algae need far less nutrients than the plants do also.
>
> N:P ratios for aquatic plants=> 10:1. FW algae=> 14:1.
> More PO4 will favor the plants.
>
> My tanks have no had algae issues for over decade. If you toss a jobes
> stick into the water column you will get instant algae bloom.
>
> It's simple enough to do and prove it to your self.
>
> This is myth about PO4 = algae in planted tanks.
>
> Regards,
> Tom Barr

Tom, how do the Nutrafin Plant Gro Spikes compare. Should I recommend
these or not? Any special conditions favour them or any they should not
be used under. Please try to keep your answer relatively basic for my
benefit ;~), and so I can remember most of it to pass along to my
customers.

NetMax.

[Houseslave]

Tom:

Can you suggest a fertilizer and fertilization routine for a fairly well
planted 55 gallon tank with community fish?

Thanks

" > wrote in message
om...
> contents:
> > > >
> > > > Total Nitrogen: 16%
> > > > 7.5% Ammonical Nitrogen
> > > > 8.5% Nitrate Nitrogen
> > Hey...
> > Whatever you do, dont get the Nutrafin Plant Gro Spikes!!!! I had them
> > for a week and my Phosphate level went through the damn roof like a
> > rocket!! Went well over 5ppm. Luckily I was able to identify them as
> > the culprit and removed them. Now my ratios are all outa wack, and I
> > have Nutrafin Plant Gro Spikes to thank for it! Read the
> > ingredients...the NPK is NOT in a 10:1 ratio! I think, from my
> > experience, it will add more harm than good...try the Seachem if you
> > want...
> >
> > You have been warned...
> > Nick
>
> Rather than reading anything about ratios read the part about
> Ammonical Nitrogen====>> urea/NH4.
>
> Try this, add KH2PO4 to 5ppm and then try adding .2ppm of NH4.
> Keep C02 and the other paratrmeters the same for each run.
>
> A bunch of PO4 will not do anything as far as algae presence but even
> a small amount of NH4/urea will cause blooms.
>
> We commnly add NO3, PO4, K and traces, the only thing missing is the
> NH4/urea.
>
> Therein lies the problem with terrestrial fertilizers, not PO4.
> I commonly dose 1ppm of PO4, the algae has the same access as the
> plants do, its entirely orthophosphate which in inorganic highly
> available in the water column PO4. This level is maintained 0.5ppm to
> 1.0ppm or higher so algae certainly are not limited nor are the plants
> in terms of PO4. Adding more is not going to give you more algae or
> plants beyond their intital needs/storage.
> Algae need far less nutrients than the plants do also.
>
> N:P ratios for aquatic plants=> 10:1. FW algae=> 14:1.
> More PO4 will favor the plants.
>
> My tanks have no had algae issues for over decade. If you toss a jobes
> stick into the water column you will get instant algae bloom.
>
> It's simple enough to do and prove it to your self.
>
> This is myth about PO4 = algae in planted tanks.
>
> Regards,
> Tom Barr

[Nemo]

" > wrote in message
om...

> I commonly dose 1ppm of PO4 [ ... ] Adding more is not going to give you
more algae or
> plants beyond their intital needs/storage.
> Algae need far less nutrients than the plants do also.
>
> N:P ratios for aquatic plants=> 10:1. FW algae=> 14:1.
> More PO4 will favor the plants.

[ ... ]

> This is myth about PO4 = algae in planted tanks.

Now I am royally confused! I've been working very hard to control algea
through limiting phosphate. How is it done otherwise?

Thanks

[Happy'Cam'per]

There are different forms of Nitrate/Ammonia. Urea is a form of ammonium
which comes from fish waste and jobes stix and soil. Algae loves Urea, so
limiting phosphate is a waste of time as its the urea or other forms of
Nitrogen that algae love. Plants need phosphate to survive healthily,
limiting phosphate = limited plant growth. Plants can utilise different
forms of Nitrates, and so can algae. I suppose urea is more easily digested
than NO3 as far as algae is concerned, this is why we are dosing KNO3 and
not Urea, sorry I dont know the elemental abbreviation for that form of
Nitrogen.

I'm sure this post is confusing, I'm speed typing at the moment. I'll
clarify the above mess tomorrow when I'm of sane mind.
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**



"Nemo" > wrote in message
...
> " > wrote in message
> om...
>
> > I commonly dose 1ppm of PO4 [ ... ] Adding more is not going to give you
> more algae or
> > plants beyond their intital needs/storage.
> > Algae need far less nutrients than the plants do also.
> >
> > N:P ratios for aquatic plants=> 10:1. FW algae=> 14:1.
> > More PO4 will favor the plants.
>
> [ ... ]
>
> > This is myth about PO4 = algae in planted tanks.
>
> Now I am royally confused! I've been working very hard to control algea
> through limiting phosphate. How is it done otherwise?
>
> Thanks
>
>

[Bill Kirkpatrick]

Ok, all. Two questions/facts.

1) I have dosed phosphate, to continuous detectable levels,
and have triggered algae in an otherwise stable, long term
stable, tank. Yea, like-like, no other changes made.

2) Ammonia is indeed a preferred form for plant/algae. But,
what do bio-filters do? Convert Ammonia to Nitrate, they do
that quite quickly, and adjust to sustained higher levels
also quite quickly. In light of how many tanks face algal
issues, are we saying that "everyone" is running material
levels of Ammonia, routinely?

My tried and true recommendation... Obviously, don't dose
Ammonia, Urea, or other forms of Ammonium - it's flat out
fish poison, if nothing else.

If you don't have algae, then make no mistake, you are
limiting it in some way. YOU may be depending on limits in
N, P, Fe, heck, even B or any of the other dozen odd
nutrients plants need. Algae has a fast turnover rate
compared to plants, and plants will, ultimately, "win" on
the uptake of rare nutrients.

*I* AM P limited. Item 1 above made that completely clear.
*YOU* may be able to dump tons of P into your tank, and
live a long and algae free life - if you are in fact
limiting on something else.

Now, being "X limited" doesn't mean absolute 0, absolutely
all the time. You may have to dose, small bits now and
again, to make sure the higher plants can occasionally find
what they need.

*******************************
Happy'Cam'per wrote:
> There are different forms of Nitrate/Ammonia. Urea is a form of ammonium
> which comes from fish waste and jobes stix and soil. Algae loves Urea, so
> limiting phosphate is a waste of time as its the urea or other forms of
> Nitrogen that algae love. Plants need phosphate to survive healthily,
> limiting phosphate = limited plant growth. Plants can utilise different
> forms of Nitrates, and so can algae. I suppose urea is more easily digested
> than NO3 as far as algae is concerned, this is why we are dosing KNO3 and
> not Urea, sorry I dont know the elemental abbreviation for that form of
> Nitrogen.
>
> I'm sure this post is confusing, I'm speed typing at the moment. I'll
> clarify the above mess tomorrow when I'm of sane mind.
> --
> **So long, and thanks for all the fish!**
>
>
>
> "Nemo" > wrote in message
> ...
>
" > wrote in message
om...
>>
>>
>>>I commonly dose 1ppm of PO4 [ ... ] Adding more is not going to give you
>>
>>more algae or
>>
>>>plants beyond their intital needs/storage.
>>>Algae need far less nutrients than the plants do also.
>>>
>>>N:P ratios for aquatic plants=> 10:1. FW algae=> 14:1.
>>>More PO4 will favor the plants.
>>
>>[ ... ]
>>
>>
>>>This is myth about PO4 = algae in planted tanks.
>>
>>Now I am royally confused! I've been working very hard to control algea
>>through limiting phosphate. How is it done otherwise?
>>
>>Thanks
>>
>>
>
>
>

[Happy'Cam'per]

Midposted

> 1) I have dosed phosphate, to continuous detectable levels,
> and have triggered algae in an otherwise stable, long term
> stable, tank. Yea, like-like, no other changes made.

How much lighting do you have on this tank.? I'll bet its round about 2
watts per gallon or less, right?
My small 10 gallon is running just over 3wpg, 2 two litre DIY bottles
pumping about 1-2 bubbles per second into the intake of a slow running AC. I
have used the Barr method for the last 6 months or so. It took a while for
the tank to settle into this routine but the results have been great. In
fact better than ever. I understand this method is "balls to the wall" as
far as the ammount of light, co2 and ferts go. But if you keep up on it, it
works astoundingly. I dump about 8ppm no3 and 3-5 drops of fleet enema twice
a week into the tank with ZERO algae, a whisp of BBA on one or two leaves
but nothing to stress about.
I think as far as your light and co2 are strong/high you can pretty much go
well above the recommended dosing levels.

>
> 2) Ammonia is indeed a preferred form for plant/algae. But,
> what do bio-filters do? Convert Ammonia to Nitrate, they do
> that quite quickly, and adjust to sustained higher levels
> also quite quickly. In light of how many tanks face algal
> issues, are we saying that "everyone" is running material
> levels of Ammonia, routinely?

Its hard to say, I think each tank's algae problems are unique, some may be
co2 or light issues while others may be from a high fishload resulting in an
influx of NH4. If the bacteria cannot convert the NH4 to less harmful NO3
quick enough then it stands to reason that there's alot of NH4 floating
around the water column. Thus plants and algae alike would help themselves
to the more preferred form of NH4.

>
> My tried and true recommendation... Obviously, don't dose
> Ammonia, Urea, or other forms of Ammonium - it's flat out
> fish poison, if nothing else.

Ditto. If I did not have fish in the tank I would really like to experiment
with this. It would be good to see the effects on the algae and plants by
adding certain ammounts of NH4 . I'm sure Tom has done this but he does not
state at which levels the algae take off.

>
> If you don't have algae, then make no mistake, you are
> limiting it in some way. YOU may be depending on limits in
> N, P, Fe, heck, even B or any of the other dozen odd
> nutrients plants need. Algae has a fast turnover rate
> compared to plants, and plants will, ultimately, "win" on
> the uptake of rare nutrients.>

Not necessarily. Is'nt this what this thread is about, the algae will do
better with 'rare nutrients' (do you mean urea?) than the plants will if the
other nutrients are not in a good range, thats why were all dosing another
form of Nitrate, NO3. As long as you have all nutrients in a certain range
and not limit ANYTHING, things will be fine. Ultimately it will be the tank
that decides whats good and whats not, I think its best just to play it by
ear.

> *I* AM P limited. Item 1 above made that completely clear.
> *YOU* may be able to dump tons of P into your tank, and
> live a long and algae free life - if you are in fact
> limiting on something else.

I have all nutrients in a good range, so far so good (6 months). Why not add
Light to this as a limiting growth factor?? Dose all your ferts within a
good range, get the co2 bubbling and play with different ammounts of light
until you find the 'sweet spot'. Limiting a plant with ferts is just to much
trouble for me.

Bill, got any pics of your tanks? I'd love to see :)
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**

[Bill Kirkpatrick]

Happy'Cam'per wrote:
> Midposted

> How much lighting do you have on this tank.? I'll bet its round about 2
> watts per gallon or less, right?

135G tank, running an IceCap 660 VHO ballast and 3 5', high
PAR (2x50/50; 1 actinic), tubes. Just over 3 watts/G. Not
that W/G is anything more than a guideline, I could be using
yellow stoplights, or something equally horrible.

> My small 10 gallon is running just over 3wpg, 2 two litre DIY bottles
> pumping about 1-2 bubbles per second into the intake of a slow running AC. I
> have used the Barr method for the last 6 months or so. It took a while for
> the tank to settle into this routine but the results have been great.

I use PMDD with fine results. Many regimens provide
success, for random values of end-user "success". I like
PMDD because Conlin & Sears' are somewhat better at stating
expectations, operating theories, and matching them through
experiments than Bob.

>>If you don't have algae, then make no mistake, you are
>>limiting it in some way. ... Algae has a fast turnover rate
>
> Not necessarily.

On the plants "winning" point, you may be correct in regards
to certain nutrients. On the you're limiting algae by some
means point, a hundred years of Biological Science will
disagree with you.

> form of Nitrate, NO3. As long as you have all nutrients in a certain range
> and not limit ANYTHING, things will be fine.

If you don't limit "ANYTHING", then you are feeding the
algae, without limit, as well. You, I, nor anyone reading
this post, knows what you're limiting, but I assure you that
you have some limiting factor - else you'd have a tank full
of algae.

> I have all nutrients in a good range, so far so good (6 months). Why not add
> Light to this as a limiting growth factor??

Got plenty. Running 400 odd Watts 12x7 adds up.

> Dose all your ferts within a
> good range,

No thanks, I spike and limit P.

> get the co2 bubbling

25 odd ppm from a pressure tank/controller.

> and play with different ammounts of light
> until you find the 'sweet spot'.

Can't tolerate anymore growth. Too much pruning already.
(My goal is one hour a month of wet maintenance). I
feed/fert daily, and can't quite make a month without
yanking/trimming some of the plants.

> Bill, got any pics of your tanks? I'd love to see :)

Some on 35mm. No digital camera, tho :-(

[Bill Kirkpatrick]

wrote:

> It's simple enough to do and prove it to your self.
>
> This is myth about PO4 = algae in planted tanks.

It's no myth Bob. If I maintain measurable Phosphate, any
measureable phosphate, I get algae far in excess of it's
normal rate. That's a long established and infinitely
repeatable fact. I assure you, because of my setup and lack
of any substantial bio-load, Ammonia is as non-existant in
my tank as it is likely to be in any tank, anywere.

Buyer Beware.

[Happy'Cam'per]

MIDPOSTED

"Bill Kirkpatrick" > wrote in message
...
> wrote:
>
> > It's simple enough to do and prove it to your self.
> >
> > This is myth about PO4 = algae in planted tanks.
>
> It's no myth Bob. If I maintain measurable Phosphate, any
> measureable phosphate, I get algae far in excess of it's
> normal rate.

What type of algae are you getting, BBA?

That's a long established and infinitely
> repeatable fact.

What's your tap water like? Phosphates?

I assure you, because of my setup and lack
> of any substantial bio-load, Ammonia is as non-existant in
> my tank as it is likely to be in any tank, anywere.
>
> Buyer Beware.

Too late :) Its a done deal.
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**

[Bill Kirkpatrick]

Happy'Cam'per wrote:
> MIDPOSTED
>
> "Bill Kirkpatrick" > wrote in message
> ...
>
wrote:
>>
>>
>>>It's simple enough to do and prove it to your self.
>>>
>>>This is myth about PO4 = algae in planted tanks.
>>
>>It's no myth Bob. If I maintain measurable Phosphate, any
>>measureable phosphate, I get algae far in excess of it's
>>normal rate.
>
>
> What type of algae are you getting, BBA?

After 10 odd years, I'ved ended up innoculated with green
spot, green water, and green hair. All well managed.

> That's a long established and infinitely
>
>>repeatable fact.
>
>
> What's your tap water like? Phosphates?

Phosphate present at <.25mg/L.

> I assure you, because of my setup and lack
>
>>of any substantial bio-load, Ammonia is as non-existant in
>>my tank as it is likely to be in any tank, anywere.
>>
>>Buyer Beware.
>
>
> Too late :) Its a done deal.

My warning is only that people with serious money
investments should think twice about nonsense like suddenly
dosing their tank to bring phosphate anywhere near 5ppm
levels, just to learn a lesson. Indeed, suddenly dosing
anything in excess may quite likely teach them a lesson
they'd rather not have learned.

Plants need phosphate. They do. Most get enough in
food/tap water changes. If not, then small doses are surely
needed. Better to tackle the issue in the PMDD style. Then
does additional P if, and only as, needed.

P is also rate limiting for plants. If they lack an
abundance, they simply stop/slow growing. Nice that, once
you've planted and pruned you tank to perfection - and want
it to stay that way for awhile.

My version of Bob's experiment would go like this:

1) Dose your tank to PMDD specs for a couple of weeks.

2) Buy a bag of Phosphorus Pentoxide (P2O5, Super Phosphate)
and make a stock solution of a scant 1 tbs per pint of water.

3) Having achived appropriate levels under the PMDD regimen,
slowly dose your phosphate stock until you see your front
glass getting cloudy more quickly.

Slowly, in my case, would be about 1-2ml of stock per 135G
tank, per week, max. This tank is also subject to a
continuous 5-6 GPD water change regimen. This results in a
spike, detectable by testing day 1, and non-detectable
within the week.

Generally, tho, I don't does P anymore. Overgrowth is as
bad as anything else, and just another maintenance chore.