Eradicating BBA

[Chris_S]

Hi:

I'm fed up with my Black Beard Algae. We've had it for the last several
years, but never had it before that. Obviously it came in on some plants or
fish. I've tried all the usual things like SAEs etc. and water control, but
nothing gets rid of it.

Recently I just setup a new 100G tank with brand new gravel and new water.
There was no phosphate in the water at all. Yet the BBA on the plants which
were put in the tank still grew. From what else I read, and from my
experience, any water that will grow plants will grow BBA. You cannot get
rid of it with water control.

So, I have come to the decision that killing it all in the entire tank
system is the only real solution. From what I read either Chlorine or
Copper will do it. Chlorine seems to work much faster. What I plan to do
is:

- Remove all the fish from the tank
- Poor in 5G of Chlorox Bleach (1/20).
- Mix it up and let it circulate in the tank for 5 minutes.
- Drain the tank, refill with water, drain tank, and refill again.
- Put in anti-Chlorine.
- Put fish back in.

I know it will kill my bio in the filters, but that is easy to regrow. I
may loose some of the plants, but I don't care if the BBA is gone forever.
After that I will rinse all plants in Chlorine before putting anything new
in.

Any other suggestions or advice?

Thanks, Chris.

[Marvin Hlavac]

Hi Chris,

You have my sympathy. I know how it feels to have an algae problem. It may
make one consider giving up this hobby at times. If I remember correctly
when I had BBA I purchased 3 SAE's. They didn't do much with the older BBA
growth. That needed to be physically removed. However they will not let new
BBA grow any more.

What you are considering should work and I don't think it will kill your
plants. If I'd had another aquarium to keep my fish in for some time I would
had considered it myself, too.

Let us posted of your progress and good luck.

--
Regards,
Marvin Hlavac
Toronto, Canada




> I'm fed up with my Black Beard Algae. We've had it for the last several
> years, but never had it before that. Obviously it came in on some plants
or
> fish. I've tried all the usual things like SAEs etc. and water control,
but
> nothing gets rid of it.
>
> Recently I just setup a new 100G tank with brand new gravel and new water.
> There was no phosphate in the water at all. Yet the BBA on the plants
which
> were put in the tank still grew. From what else I read, and from my
> experience, any water that will grow plants will grow BBA. You cannot get
> rid of it with water control.
>
> So, I have come to the decision that killing it all in the entire tank
> system is the only real solution. From what I read either Chlorine or
> Copper will do it. Chlorine seems to work much faster. What I plan to do
> is:
>
> - Remove all the fish from the tank
> - Poor in 5G of Chlorox Bleach (1/20).
> - Mix it up and let it circulate in the tank for 5 minutes.
> - Drain the tank, refill with water, drain tank, and refill again.
> - Put in anti-Chlorine.
> - Put fish back in.
>
> I know it will kill my bio in the filters, but that is easy to regrow. I
> may loose some of the plants, but I don't care if the BBA is gone forever.
> After that I will rinse all plants in Chlorine before putting anything new
> in.
>
> Any other suggestions or advice?
>
> Thanks, Chris.
>
>
>

[Happy'Cam'per]

Hi Chris

You need to check your co2. There's not enough.
Instead of going the chemical nuking route, just do a 3 day blackout. Get
your lighting, co2 and nutrients back up and manually remove as much of the
stuff as you can.

--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**


"Chris_S" > wrote in message
...
> Hi:
>
> I'm fed up with my Black Beard Algae. We've had it for the last several
> years, but never had it before that. Obviously it came in on some plants
or
> fish. I've tried all the usual things like SAEs etc. and water control,
but
> nothing gets rid of it.
>
> Recently I just setup a new 100G tank with brand new gravel and new water.
> There was no phosphate in the water at all. Yet the BBA on the plants
which
> were put in the tank still grew. From what else I read, and from my
> experience, any water that will grow plants will grow BBA. You cannot get
> rid of it with water control.
>
> So, I have come to the decision that killing it all in the entire tank
> system is the only real solution. From what I read either Chlorine or
> Copper will do it. Chlorine seems to work much faster. What I plan to do
> is:
>
> - Remove all the fish from the tank
> - Poor in 5G of Chlorox Bleach (1/20).
> - Mix it up and let it circulate in the tank for 5 minutes.
> - Drain the tank, refill with water, drain tank, and refill again.
> - Put in anti-Chlorine.
> - Put fish back in.
>
> I know it will kill my bio in the filters, but that is easy to regrow. I
> may loose some of the plants, but I don't care if the BBA is gone forever.
> After that I will rinse all plants in Chlorine before putting anything new
> in.
>
> Any other suggestions or advice?
>
> Thanks, Chris.
>
>
>

[Chris_S]

Hi:

I've tried running the CO2 from 5PPM to 30PPM. You're right having it
higher and more plant growth helps, but the BBA still does not go away. It
just slows down. I have no problem with any other kind of algae. Just BBA.

Blackout will have no effect. The doc in the Krib and elsewhere says same
thing. BBA will just go dormant. People have taken out rocks with BBA on
them, let them dry in air 6 months, then put them back in water, and the BBA
starts right back where it left off. This stuff is HARD to kill. The only
thing that kills it is Chlorine or Copper Sulphate. Even Copper takes 3-5
days to kill it. Chlorine only takes minutes.

Water control can help or make things worse, but it will never get rid of
it. You could put a rock with BBA in distilled water and the BBA will not
die. Probably just go into hibernation and come back when there are
nutrients around.

The only way I see to kill BBA without killing the plants is Chlorine or
Copper. I've tried everything else. It's time to sterilize the tank.

I'm just kicking myself that I did not sterilize the plants and rocks in
Chlorine when I set this new tank up 2 months ago. I had the perfect
opportunity then to start off with a clean tank. That would have been the
perfect time to get rid of this BBA. Now I see no choice but the hard way.

Thanks, Chris.




"Happy'Cam'per" > wrote in message
...
> Hi Chris
>
> You need to check your co2. There's not enough.
> Instead of going the chemical nuking route, just do a 3 day blackout. Get
> your lighting, co2 and nutrients back up and manually remove as much of
the
> stuff as you can.
>
> --
> **So long, and thanks for all the fish!**
>
>
> "Chris_S" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Hi:
> >
> > I'm fed up with my Black Beard Algae. We've had it for the last several
> > years, but never had it before that. Obviously it came in on some
plants
> or
> > fish. I've tried all the usual things like SAEs etc. and water control,
> but
> > nothing gets rid of it.
> >
> > Recently I just setup a new 100G tank with brand new gravel and new
water.
> > There was no phosphate in the water at all. Yet the BBA on the plants
> which
> > were put in the tank still grew. From what else I read, and from my
> > experience, any water that will grow plants will grow BBA. You cannot
get
> > rid of it with water control.
> >
> > So, I have come to the decision that killing it all in the entire tank
> > system is the only real solution. From what I read either Chlorine or
> > Copper will do it. Chlorine seems to work much faster. What I plan to
do
> > is:
> >
> > - Remove all the fish from the tank
> > - Poor in 5G of Chlorox Bleach (1/20).
> > - Mix it up and let it circulate in the tank for 5 minutes.
> > - Drain the tank, refill with water, drain tank, and refill again.
> > - Put in anti-Chlorine.
> > - Put fish back in.
> >
> > I know it will kill my bio in the filters, but that is easy to regrow.
I
> > may loose some of the plants, but I don't care if the BBA is gone
forever.
> > After that I will rinse all plants in Chlorine before putting anything
new
> > in.
> >
> > Any other suggestions or advice?
> >
> > Thanks, Chris.
> >
> >
> >
>
>

[Dick]

On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 00:26:18 GMT, "Chris_S" > wrote:

>Hi:
>
>I'm fed up with my Black Beard Algae. We've had it for the last several
>years, but never had it before that. Obviously it came in on some plants or
>fish. I've tried all the usual things like SAEs etc. and water control, but
>nothing gets rid of it.
>
>Recently I just setup a new 100G tank with brand new gravel and new water.
>There was no phosphate in the water at all. Yet the BBA on the plants which
>were put in the tank still grew. From what else I read, and from my
>experience, any water that will grow plants will grow BBA. You cannot get
>rid of it with water control.
>
>So, I have come to the decision that killing it all in the entire tank
>system is the only real solution. From what I read either Chlorine or
>Copper will do it. Chlorine seems to work much faster. What I plan to do
>is:
>
>- Remove all the fish from the tank
>- Poor in 5G of Chlorox Bleach (1/20).
>- Mix it up and let it circulate in the tank for 5 minutes.
>- Drain the tank, refill with water, drain tank, and refill again.
>- Put in anti-Chlorine.
>- Put fish back in.
>
>I know it will kill my bio in the filters, but that is easy to regrow. I
>may loose some of the plants, but I don't care if the BBA is gone forever.
>After that I will rinse all plants in Chlorine before putting anything new
>in.
>
>Any other suggestions or advice?
>
>Thanks, Chris.
>
>

I am surprised you moved plants with BBA into the new tank. Part of
my getting rid of the stuff was to remove all plants that showed BBA
growth. I also reduced the number of hours the lights are on. A
bought some Siamese Algae Eaters and cut back on the food. I also
removed any gravel that had BBA on it. I did get rid of the stuff and
it has been over 6 months since the last went away.

[Michi Henning]

"Chris_S" > wrote in message
...
> Hi:
>
> I'm fed up with my Black Beard Algae. We've had it for the last several
> years, but never had it before that. Obviously it came in on some plants or
> fish. I've tried all the usual things like SAEs etc. and water control, but
> nothing gets rid of it.

I recently saw that Azoo now market a Brush Algae Killer. It comes
in a very small bottle (maybe 10ml) and, apparently, a few drops are
sufficient for a 50 gallon tank. Does anyone have any experience with it?

Thanks,

Michi.

--
Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com

[Chris_S]

> I recently saw that Azoo now market a Brush Algae Killer. It comes
> in a very small bottle (maybe 10ml) and, apparently, a few drops are
> sufficient for a 50 gallon tank. Does anyone have any experience with it?

WOW! Now that's real news. I found the manfs product info:

http://www.azoo.com.tw/azoo_en/modules.php?name=Product_Review&bkid=309

It's AZOO product number AZ17086. I found another user post somewhere and
they said it got rid of their BBA in 14 days. If true, that is very good
news indeed.

The only fish stores that seem to have it are outside the US. Have not
found it yet in any of the US websites.

It's certainly worth a try if I can get some.

Thanks for the info!!!

Chris.

[Michi Henning]

"Chris_S" > wrote in message
...

> WOW! Now that's real news. I found the manfs product info:
>
> http://www.azoo.com.tw/azoo_en/modules.php?name=Product_Review&bkid=309
>
> It's AZOO product number AZ17086. I found another user post somewhere and
> they said it got rid of their BBA in 14 days. If true, that is very good
> news indeed.
>
> The only fish stores that seem to have it are outside the US. Have not
> found it yet in any of the US websites.
>
> It's certainly worth a try if I can get some.
>
> Thanks for the info!!!

Well, I've never tried it, so I'm looking for people with first-hand experience
*before* I get all excited :-)

I've heard anecdotes at my LFS that the stuff works. But I don't know
anything else about it. For example, is it safe for crustaceans? (Azoo
Algae Treater is *not*.) Anyway, if anyone has tried the stuff, I'd be
keen to hear how well it worked.

Cheers,

Michi.

--
Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com

[Tasslehoff Burfoot]

It worked like a charm for me 10 months ago in my 3' tank. It takes 2 weeks
treatment(1 drop/`15G) although it seems to take about 8 days to actually
kick in and then you'll notice the reduction very very quickly. 30% water
changes every 3 days if I remember correctly as it totally decimates your
biological filter bacteria (words to that effect on the fine print box,
hehe). I still occasionally get it in my planted low light 3' tank if I
overdose iron or neglect water changes for a month. I've had minor traces
of it in my high light/CO2 4' tank if you look hard enough for a few minutes
amost since it was set up a year ago but have never had to add any azoo
treatment to this tank.

"Michi Henning" > wrote in message
...
> "Chris_S" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> WOW! Now that's real news. I found the manfs product info:
>>
>> http://www.azoo.com.tw/azoo_en/modules.php?name=Product_Review&bkid=309
>>
>> It's AZOO product number AZ17086. I found another user post somewhere
>> and
>> they said it got rid of their BBA in 14 days. If true, that is very good
>> news indeed.
>>
>> The only fish stores that seem to have it are outside the US. Have not
>> found it yet in any of the US websites.
>>
>> It's certainly worth a try if I can get some.
>>
>> Thanks for the info!!!
>
> Well, I've never tried it, so I'm looking for people with first-hand
> experience
> *before* I get all excited :-)
>
> I've heard anecdotes at my LFS that the stuff works. But I don't know
> anything else about it. For example, is it safe for crustaceans? (Azoo
> Algae Treater is *not*.) Anyway, if anyone has tried the stuff, I'd be
> keen to hear how well it worked.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Michi.
>
> --
> Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
> ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com
>

[Robert Flory]

"Chris_S" > wrote in message
...
> Hi:
>
> I've tried running the CO2 from 5PPM to 30PPM. You're right having it
> higher and more plant growth helps, but the BBA still does not go away.
It
> just slows down. I have no problem with any other kind of algae. Just
BBA.
>
> Blackout will have no effect. The doc in the Krib and elsewhere says same
> thing. BBA will just go dormant. People have taken out rocks with BBA on
> them, let them dry in air 6 months, then put them back in water, and the
BBA
> starts right back where it left off. This stuff is HARD to kill. The
only
> thing that kills it is Chlorine or Copper Sulphate. Even Copper takes 3-5
> days to kill it. Chlorine only takes minutes.
>
> Water control can help or make things worse, but it will never get rid of
> it. You could put a rock with BBA in distilled water and the BBA will not
> die. Probably just go into hibernation and come back when there are
> nutrients around.
>
> The only way I see to kill BBA without killing the plants is Chlorine or
> Copper. I've tried everything else. It's time to sterilize the tank.
>
> I'm just kicking myself that I did not sterilize the plants and rocks in
> Chlorine when I set this new tank up 2 months ago. I had the perfect
> opportunity then to start off with a clean tank. That would have been the
> perfect time to get rid of this BBA. Now I see no choice but the hard
way.
>
> Thanks, Chris.
>
Up your nutrients cut back on the length of light. I had plants with better
growths than my own beard. Cutting out the light doesn't do the trick....
but increasing my light level to @ 2 watts/gallon, upping the CO2, cutting
back 10 hrs a day of light, and the Tom Barr method of dosing nutrients
.......
slowly did the trick. along with manually trimming the worst of it.

A hydrogen peroxide works well if you want to clean up a more delicate
plants.

Now everything is fine, till I forget something .....;-) or go on vacation.

bob

[Chris_S]

That's very encouraging news.

Where did you buy it? I can't find anywhere in the USA that has it.

Thanks, Chris.




"Tasslehoff Burfoot" > wrote in message
...
> It worked like a charm for me 10 months ago in my 3' tank. It takes 2
weeks
> treatment(1 drop/`15G) although it seems to take about 8 days to actually
> kick in and then you'll notice the reduction very very quickly. 30% water
> changes every 3 days if I remember correctly as it totally decimates your
> biological filter bacteria (words to that effect on the fine print box,
> hehe). I still occasionally get it in my planted low light 3' tank if I
> overdose iron or neglect water changes for a month. I've had minor traces
> of it in my high light/CO2 4' tank if you look hard enough for a few
minutes
> amost since it was set up a year ago but have never had to add any azoo
> treatment to this tank.
>
> "Michi Henning" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Chris_S" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >> WOW! Now that's real news. I found the manfs product info:
> >>
> >> http://www.azoo.com.tw/azoo_en/modules.php?name=Product_Review&bkid=309
> >>
> >> It's AZOO product number AZ17086. I found another user post somewhere
> >> and
> >> they said it got rid of their BBA in 14 days. If true, that is very
good
> >> news indeed.
> >>
> >> The only fish stores that seem to have it are outside the US. Have not
> >> found it yet in any of the US websites.
> >>
> >> It's certainly worth a try if I can get some.
> >>
> >> Thanks for the info!!!
> >
> > Well, I've never tried it, so I'm looking for people with first-hand
> > experience
> > *before* I get all excited :-)
> >
> > I've heard anecdotes at my LFS that the stuff works. But I don't know
> > anything else about it. For example, is it safe for crustaceans? (Azoo
> > Algae Treater is *not*.) Anyway, if anyone has tried the stuff, I'd be
> > keen to hear how well it worked.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Michi.
> >
> > --
> > Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
> > ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com
> >
>
>

[Alex R]

"Chris_S" > wrote in message
...
> Hi:

> There was no phosphate in the water at all.

Well, there's your problem. Or at least one of them. There's a very simple
and frequently mentioned principle to getting rid of algae. FOCUS ON THE
PLANTS. Give them abundant nutrients, including NO3, PO4, & K, but most
importantly CO2. Forget about the algae for a while. When the plants are at
their *optimal* health, the algae will go away automatically. If you still
have algae, then your plants not at their peak health. Don't ask me how this
works, but it works for sure. It might have something to do with O2 levels,
I don't know. As you probably found out, it's impossible to kill BBA by
trying to starve it. Here are the nutrient levels you need to keep:

CO2: 25-35 ppm (at all times)
NO3: 5-15 ppm
PO4: at least 0.5 ppm
K: ~20 ppm estimated

For traces, you need to watch for iron deficiency and add as much of your
trace supplement as necessary to keep it from occuring. You have to obtain
some KNO3, K2SO4, KH2PO4, and either Seachem Flourish or Tropica MasterGrow,
if you don't have these already. Check the archive of this newsgroup for
sources of these. You'd probably have to add around 3/4 tsp of each KNO3 and
K2SO4, and a few pinches of KH2PO4 per week, but search the archive for more
thorough instructions.

> Yet the BBA on the plants which
> were put in the tank still grew. From what else I read, and from my
> experience, any water that will grow plants will grow BBA.

Not true. How is it that so many planted tanks have flourishing plants, no
algae eaters, and no visible BBA? It's not because algae cells simply don't
exist in those tanks.


> So, I have come to the decision that killing it all in the entire tank
> system is the only real solution. From what I read either Chlorine or
> Copper will do it. Chlorine seems to work much faster. What I plan to do
> is:

> Any other suggestions or advice?

Yes, don't even consider it. As far as I'm concerned, your method is
short-sighted and the complete OPPOSITE of what you should be doing. It does
nothing beneficial for plants. It may kill your fish, and more likely than
not will lead you to more frustration because of this or other algae issues.
Support for methods like this makes me kind of angry, because they
completely disregard the proper way of controlling algae, by caring for the
plants. It's been established and is discussed frequently on this newsgroup
and on the Aquatic Plants Digest by Tom Barr and others. First try feeding
your plants adequately, and *then* use poisonous substances to try to kill
algae if you want. But the only thing that will work for you is keeping the
nutrient levels high, if you ask me.
__
Alex
pcalex (at) hotpop.com

[Alex R]

"Chris_S" > wrote in message
...
>
> It's AZOO product number AZ17086. I found another user post somewhere and
> they said it got rid of their BBA in 14 days. If true, that is very good
> news indeed.
>
> The only fish stores that seem to have it are outside the US. Have not
> found it yet in any of the US websites.

There are products available in the US that achieve the same result and
probably cost much less. They are called plant nutrients, i.e. Potassium
Nitrate, Potassium Sulphate, etc. The only side effect is that they make
your plants grow.
__
Alex
pcalex (at) hotpop.com

[Happy'Cam'per]

Go Alex, very sound advice IMO !!!
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**





"Alex R" > wrote in message
news:m2z5c.23159$J05.163678@attbi_s01...
> "Chris_S" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Hi:
>
> > There was no phosphate in the water at all.
>
> Well, there's your problem. Or at least one of them. There's a very simple
> and frequently mentioned principle to getting rid of algae. FOCUS ON THE
> PLANTS. Give them abundant nutrients, including NO3, PO4, & K, but most
> importantly CO2. Forget about the algae for a while. When the plants are
at
> their *optimal* health, the algae will go away automatically. If you still
> have algae, then your plants not at their peak health. Don't ask me how
this
> works, but it works for sure. It might have something to do with O2
levels,
> I don't know. As you probably found out, it's impossible to kill BBA by
> trying to starve it. Here are the nutrient levels you need to keep:
>
> CO2: 25-35 ppm (at all times)
> NO3: 5-15 ppm
> PO4: at least 0.5 ppm
> K: ~20 ppm estimated
>
> For traces, you need to watch for iron deficiency and add as much of your
> trace supplement as necessary to keep it from occuring. You have to obtain
> some KNO3, K2SO4, KH2PO4, and either Seachem Flourish or Tropica
MasterGrow,
> if you don't have these already. Check the archive of this newsgroup for
> sources of these. You'd probably have to add around 3/4 tsp of each KNO3
and
> K2SO4, and a few pinches of KH2PO4 per week, but search the archive for
more
> thorough instructions.
>
> > Yet the BBA on the plants which
> > were put in the tank still grew. From what else I read, and from my
> > experience, any water that will grow plants will grow BBA.
>
> Not true. How is it that so many planted tanks have flourishing plants, no
> algae eaters, and no visible BBA? It's not because algae cells simply
don't
> exist in those tanks.
>
>
> > So, I have come to the decision that killing it all in the entire tank
> > system is the only real solution. From what I read either Chlorine or
> > Copper will do it. Chlorine seems to work much faster. What I plan to
do
> > is:
>
> > Any other suggestions or advice?
>
> Yes, don't even consider it. As far as I'm concerned, your method is
> short-sighted and the complete OPPOSITE of what you should be doing. It
does
> nothing beneficial for plants. It may kill your fish, and more likely than
> not will lead you to more frustration because of this or other algae
issues.
> Support for methods like this makes me kind of angry, because they
> completely disregard the proper way of controlling algae, by caring for
the
> plants. It's been established and is discussed frequently on this
newsgroup
> and on the Aquatic Plants Digest by Tom Barr and others. First try feeding
> your plants adequately, and *then* use poisonous substances to try to kill
> algae if you want. But the only thing that will work for you is keeping
the
> nutrient levels high, if you ask me.
> __
> Alex
> pcalex (at) hotpop.com
>
>

[Chris_S]

> > There was no phosphate in the water at all.

> Well, there's your problem.

Gee, for years other people told me that the cause of BBA was too much
phosphate. Now you say having no phosphate causes it. This is typical of
the conflicting information I often here about BBA problems.

Obviously you are of the camp that believes you can control BBA with the
water. I bought into that mentality for years, and fought the BBA using
that method. The BBA won. Maybe for some people, their water, their
plants, and their type of BBA, that method can have some success. But it is
very clear from everything else I have read that more and more 'water
treatment' people are becoming convinced that BBA is a different kind of
problem entirely.

I have seen really nice show aquariums with tons of plant growth and no BBA.
When I ask the aqua person how they did it, they tell me: "I rinse every
plant in Chlorine before I put it in the tank - I don't let BBA in the
tank". That is how they handle it, they prevent it.

Once it gets in it's like cancer. Some may go into remission, some may go
away, some may respond to therapy, but in most cases it will keep growing.

I've had plant growth through the top of the tank. Swords with 24 inch
leaves, and so much plant growth I had to prune plants every week. Yet the
BBA never went away. I've read articles from other people who believed that
water control could combat BBA as well, yet they were left scratching their
heads when they lost the fight and the BBA kept growing.

I do not know if you have any BBA in your tank(s) right now, but if you
would really like to test your theories in practice, I would be happy to
send you some of mine. I can send you a rock or plant with the BBA species
I have. Just let me know.

Regards, Chris.

[Harry Muscle]

SNIP
> >
> Up your nutrients cut back on the length of light. I had plants with
better
> growths than my own beard. Cutting out the light doesn't do the trick....
> but increasing my light level to @ 2 watts/gallon, upping the CO2, cutting
> back 10 hrs a day of light, and the Tom Barr method of dosing nutrients
> ......
> slowly did the trick. along with manually trimming the worst of it.
>
> A hydrogen peroxide works well if you want to clean up a more delicate
> plants.
>
> Now everything is fine, till I forget something .....;-) or go on
vacation.
>
> bob
>
>

Is there a website that elaborates on the Tom Barr method of dosing?

Thanks,
Harry




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[RedForeman ©®]

>>> There was no phosphate in the water at all.
>> Well, there's your problem.
> Gee, for years other people told me that the cause of BBA was too much
> phosphate. Now you say having no phosphate causes it. This is
> typical of the conflicting information I often here about BBA
> problems.
>
> Obviously you are of the camp that believes you can control BBA with
> the water. I bought into that mentality for years, and fought the
> BBA using that method. The BBA won. Maybe for some people, their
> water, their plants, and their type of BBA, that method can have some
> success. But it is very clear from everything else I have read that
> more and more 'water treatment' people are becoming convinced that
> BBA is a different kind of problem entirely.
>
> I have seen really nice show aquariums with tons of plant growth and
> no BBA. When I ask the aqua person how they did it, they tell me: "I
> rinse every plant in Chlorine before I put it in the tank - I don't
> let BBA in the tank". That is how they handle it, they prevent it.
>
> Once it gets in it's like cancer. Some may go into remission, some
> may go away, some may respond to therapy, but in most cases it will
> keep growing.
>
> I've had plant growth through the top of the tank. Swords with 24
> inch leaves, and so much plant growth I had to prune plants every
> week. Yet the BBA never went away. I've read articles from other
> people who believed that water control could combat BBA as well, yet
> they were left scratching their heads when they lost the fight and
> the BBA kept growing.
>
> I do not know if you have any BBA in your tank(s) right now, but if
> you would really like to test your theories in practice, I would be
> happy to send you some of mine. I can send you a rock or plant with
> the BBA species I have. Just let me know.
>
> Regards, Chris.

I see that your situation has set your mind already.... it's easy to give
up, easier than fixing the problem and I admit, I have been battling BBA for
4 months and what caused mine, is a three fold effect. 1, ran out of CO2, 2
days... only 2 days and it started. 2, PMDD ran out... 3, water changes
were neglected for an extra 2 weeks....

In a period of 2 weeks, my tank went haywire... 2 swords that were
beautiful, covered, my anubias, trashed, sunset hygro, wadded up with BBA...

The only way I know to fix it, was to clean what algae I could, manually...
Soak whatever equipment in Chlorine bleach, and startup the CO2 and ferts
again... 2 weeks later, it's not growing, but its' a daily manual removal
routine that I get into, and it's getting better every day....

There is hope, but only if youre not in denial, that you MUST do something,
it isn't such an easy fix that it'll just hit you one day... it's a serious
method of nutrients, and CO2... you can deny all you want... Tom Barr knows
his stuff...


--
RedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike
streetfighter!!!

==========================
2003 TRX450ES
1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
1987 TRX250R (sold)
1987 CBR600 Hurricane (sold)
1987 VFR700 Interceptor (sold)
1995 TRX300ex (sold)
2000 CBR600F4 silver/red (sold) *sniff*sniff*
'98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
==========================
ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø
"By US Code Title 47, Sec.227(a)(2)(B), a computer/modem/printer
meets the definition of a telephone fax machine. By Sec.227(b)(1)(C),
it is unlawful to send any unsolicited advertisement to such equipment.
By Sec.227(b)(3)(C), a violation of the aforementioned Section is
punishable by action to recover actual monetary loss, or $500,
whichever is greater, for each violation."

If you do send me unsolicited e-mail I will proof-read it at a rate
of $100 per hour (4 hour minimum).

[Chris_S]

I guess I no longer believe that there are any water conditions under which
BBA will not survive. Sure you can make it grow faster or slower, but the
point is it keeps growing once it is in your tank. That is not true with
Green algae. That you can control and essentially make it disappear. I've
never had any significant problem with Green algae.

BBA is Red algae (Rhodophytes) and is NOT at all related to Green algae
(Chlorophytes). There are over 5000 species of Red algae of which about 200
are freshwater. Most are sal****er. This is seaweed. BBA is really
nothing more than freshwater seaweed, and is of a completely different
nature than Green algae. It is probably unfortunate that the common term
"algae" is use for both because they are totally different.

I hear a lot of people describing water treatment methods that certainly
have a big affect when dealing with Green algae. But I no longer believe
that these methods are relavant or anywhere near as useful for Red algae.
Red algae does not respond in the same way at all - it is tenacious.

Nick Franks wrote a good article about Red Algae in 1996. As he says, Red
Algae is designed to survive on low nutrients. You cannot starve it out of
existence. It can survive a long time without photosynthesis. Your plants
will die long before it does. The whole point of his article was that once
you get it in your tank, you're in for a battle. There's no winning in this
game, just minimizing your defeat. His #1 recommendation was to eliminate
it before it gets in your tank.

Once you have it in your tank, well I guess you could say it's probably like
having Herpes. You just have to learn how to live with it. I am fed up
living with it and I want it out.

Regards, Chris.

[Nemo]

I had a bad outbreak of BBA after an overdose of Seachem Flourish. The stuff
was probably already in the tank, but the Flourish overdose made it spread
very fast.

I tried starving it, and I tried the blackout - neither was not enough.

Last weekend, I trimmed a lot of the leaves that were infested in the faster
growing plants. Then I took out the anoubias and java fern and soaked them
in a bleach solution. I got distracted, and the anubias was left in the
solution for over 10 minutes. By the time I noticed, the BBA was freeling
falling off its leaves. Where the plants were soaked for only 4 minutes, I
had to rub it off and it took some doing. I also soaked my mopani wood where
the BBA had started growing, then scrubbed it with a brush. I could not get
it off the "bananas" of the banana plant eventhough it (the algae) was
bleached dead. Whatever I could not scrub off, turned white to reddish when
it was returned to the tank.

I still have it on the dwarf hairgrass even after a very short haircut. But
now, my SAE appear to be keeping it under control. Who knows, I may follow
in Chris's footsteps if I get fed up in the future.

[RedForeman ©®]

"Nemo" > wrote in message
> Last weekend, I trimmed a lot of the leaves that were infested in the
faster
> growing plants. Then I took out the anoubias and java fern and soaked them
> in a bleach solution. I got distracted, and the anubias was left in the
> solution for over 10 minutes. By the time I noticed, the BBA was freeling
> falling off its leaves. Where the plants were soaked for only 4 minutes, I
> had to rub it off and it took some doing. I also soaked my mopani wood
where
> the BBA had started growing, then scrubbed it with a brush. I could not
get
> it off the "bananas" of the banana plant eventhough it (the algae) was
> bleached dead. Whatever I could not scrub off, turned white to reddish
when
> it was returned to the tank.
>
> I still have it on the dwarf hairgrass even after a very short haircut.
But
> now, my SAE appear to be keeping it under control. Who knows, I may follow
> in Chris's footsteps if I get fed up in the future.

I can only offer 2 words of advice...

Manual Removal - if it's not there, it_Can't_ grow... right?

If you have it, you must "Manually Remove" what you can... on substrate,
plants, equipment... entirely submersing them in chlorine will chemically
remove it... getting rid of it, totally is a hard job... slow but steady
manual removal is indeed the slowest but most promising method. A little at
a time, will rid your tank of it...

Ok, with that said, I ask, will it grow back? If you repeat what started
it, yes... If you follow a somewhat strict regimen of CO2, Ferts, and water
changes, it'll probably STOP growing, go dormant and may even subside...
that I cannot prove, but mine is no longer growing....

When all else seems like it'll too fail, you can always try what someone
suggests... it doesn't hurt.. I was the one saying I was going to tear this
tank down to the stand and clean it... instead, I removed it manually, added
CO2, and ferts, and slowly but surely, it's being removed.... daily.

--
RedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike streetfighter!!!

==========================
2003 TRX450ES
1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
1987 TRX250R (sold)
1987 CBR600 Hurricane (sold)
1987 VFR700 Interceptor (sold)
1995 TRX300ex (sold)
2000 CBR600F4 silver/red (sold) *sniff*sniff*
'98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
==========================
ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø
"By US Code Title 47, Sec.227(a)(2)(B), a computer/modem/printer
meets the definition of a telephone fax machine. By Sec.227(b)(1)(C),
it is unlawful to send any unsolicited advertisement to such equipment.
By Sec.227(b)(3)(C), a violation of the aforementioned Section is
punishable by action to recover actual monetary loss, or $500,
whichever is greater, for each violation."

If you do send me unsolicited e-mail I will proof-read it at a rate
of $100 per hour (4 hour minimum).

[Chris_S]

> Manual Removal - if it's not there, it_Can't_ grow... right?

Wrong. Red algae is designed to survive in fast moving stream water by
nailing itself to rocks, wood, and plants. This stuff is related to
coraline in the sea. Ever tried pulling barnacles off rocks at the coast?
Not easy and certainly not fun. Epoxy cement has real competition here.

It is extremely tough just trying to scrape BBA off plastic tubes, virtually
impossible to get it off of wood, and IS impossible to get it off other
plants without ripping them to shreds!

Going through all that work and nightmare may make it less visible for a
short time, but you have done absolutely nothing to remove it from the
system. There are spores in the water, there are fragments still remaining
on all of the surfaces. You will never get rid of it mechanically. It will
just keep coming back. Physical removal is a total waste of time and
effort unless you have chemically killed it first.

I'm convinced that sterilization by Chlorine or equiv. is the only way to be
rid of this stuff. Perhaps the AZOO Brush Algae Killer does the trick. It
appears that no one in the USA or Canada has this stuff yet. I'm still
looking for it.

It should be noted, as NEMO said in the previous post, even after you kill
this stuff it still does not decay away. The threads are still there, dead
and bleached out white. Now ask yourself, if this stuff was anything like
Green algae, why doesn't it just fad away as soon as you kill it? Because
Red Algae is very different. The threads are made of very tough fiberous
material - its freshwater seaweed.

Chris.

[Chris_S]

Update: AZOO Brush Algae Killer

For those of you like me that are interested in the "Kill all BBA" approach,
and live in the USA, I'm afraid we are stuck with Chlorox or Copper as the
only methods. Looks like our wonderful Green terrorists, EPA, and DEQ are
trying to put the aquarium business out of business too.

I just got done talking with the AZOO importer Aquatic-ECO Systems for the
USA. They cannot bring this stuff in because of the "product title". They
say having "ALGAE" and "KILLER" in the same sentence brings the EPA down on
them like a ton of bricks. They told me it is becoming very difficult and
expensive to bring anything like this into the USA anymore. They have to
pay huge taxes, fees, and attorneys to do it.

I think I will talk to some of my friends in Asia have them buy some locally
and send it to me.

Hey, in a few more years they will probably outlaw all bug spray and
weed-be-gone here in the states. I guess we will just have to
"mechanically" remove all pests and weeds everywhere.

Chris.

[Harry Muscle]

"Chris_S" > wrote in message
...
> Update: AZOO Brush Algae Killer
>
> For those of you like me that are interested in the "Kill all BBA"
approach,
> and live in the USA, I'm afraid we are stuck with Chlorox or Copper as the
> only methods. Looks like our wonderful Green terrorists, EPA, and DEQ are
> trying to put the aquarium business out of business too.
>
> I just got done talking with the AZOO importer Aquatic-ECO Systems for the
> USA. They cannot bring this stuff in because of the "product title".
They
> say having "ALGAE" and "KILLER" in the same sentence brings the EPA down
on
> them like a ton of bricks. They told me it is becoming very difficult and
> expensive to bring anything like this into the USA anymore. They have to
> pay huge taxes, fees, and attorneys to do it.
>
> I think I will talk to some of my friends in Asia have them buy some
locally
> and send it to me.
>
> Hey, in a few more years they will probably outlaw all bug spray and
> weed-be-gone here in the states. I guess we will just have to
> "mechanically" remove all pests and weeds everywhere.
>
> Chris.
>
>

Can you find it online for sale anywhere, especially in Europe? They might
be willing to ship to the US.

Harry




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[Harry Muscle]

"Chris_S" > wrote in message
...
> Update: AZOO Brush Algae Killer
>
> For those of you like me that are interested in the "Kill all BBA"
approach,
> and live in the USA, I'm afraid we are stuck with Chlorox or Copper as the
> only methods. Looks like our wonderful Green terrorists, EPA, and DEQ are
> trying to put the aquarium business out of business too.
>
> I just got done talking with the AZOO importer Aquatic-ECO Systems for the
> USA. They cannot bring this stuff in because of the "product title".
They
> say having "ALGAE" and "KILLER" in the same sentence brings the EPA down
on
> them like a ton of bricks. They told me it is becoming very difficult and
> expensive to bring anything like this into the USA anymore. They have to
> pay huge taxes, fees, and attorneys to do it.
>
> I think I will talk to some of my friends in Asia have them buy some
locally
> and send it to me.
>
> Hey, in a few more years they will probably outlaw all bug spray and
> weed-be-gone here in the states. I guess we will just have to
> "mechanically" remove all pests and weeds everywhere.
>
> Chris.
>
>

Check with these guys:
http://www.adelaideaquariums.com.au/products/treatments.html . They used to
have the product you want listed, can't find it right now, but they might
still carry it. Send them an e-mail maybe. According to the web address,
they're located in Australia, which means they probably wouldn't have a
problem sending the stuff to the US. Anyway, just a thought.

Harry




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[RedForeman ©®]

> > Manual Removal - if it's not there, it_Can't_ grow... right?
>
> Wrong. Red algae is designed to survive in fast moving stream water by
> nailing itself to rocks, wood, and plants. This stuff is related to
> coraline in the sea. Ever tried pulling barnacles off rocks at the coast?
> Not easy and certainly not fun. Epoxy cement has real competition here.
>
> It is extremely tough just trying to scrape BBA off plastic tubes,
virtually
> impossible to get it off of wood, and IS impossible to get it off other
> plants without ripping them to shreds!
>
> Going through all that work and nightmare may make it less visible for a
> short time, but you have done absolutely nothing to remove it from the
> system. There are spores in the water, there are fragments still
remaining
> on all of the surfaces. You will never get rid of it mechanically. It
will
> just keep coming back. Physical removal is a total waste of time and
> effort unless you have chemically killed it first.
>
> I'm convinced that sterilization by Chlorine or equiv. is the only way to
be
> rid of this stuff. Perhaps the AZOO Brush Algae Killer does the trick.
It
> appears that no one in the USA or Canada has this stuff yet. I'm still
> looking for it.
>
> It should be noted, as NEMO said in the previous post, even after you kill
> this stuff it still does not decay away. The threads are still there,
dead
> and bleached out white. Now ask yourself, if this stuff was anything like
> Green algae, why doesn't it just fad away as soon as you kill it? Because
> Red Algae is very different. The threads are made of very tough fiberous
> material - its freshwater seaweed.
>
> Chris.


My bad, I thought you were asking how others deal with it, when they had
it... I didn't realize you'd already made up your mind and was just
searching for a specific answer to confirm you're already made up mind...

I've been dealing with it for 4 months, and not really having a major spaz
about it, it's not growing anymore, it's declining, and nuking the tank
isn't one of my preferred methods of fixing stuff...

I hope you have some luck with azoo, or clorox, whichever method you choose,
as I'll be one that is sincerely interested in what you learn, find and if
and when you report back here, we'll go from there....

Thanks for your time...

--
RedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike streetfighter!!!

==========================
2003 TRX450ES
1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
1987 TRX250R (sold)
1987 CBR600 Hurricane (sold)
1987 VFR700 Interceptor (sold)
1995 TRX300ex (sold)
2000 CBR600F4 silver/red (sold) *sniff*sniff*
'98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
==========================
ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø
"By US Code Title 47, Sec.227(a)(2)(B), a computer/modem/printer
meets the definition of a telephone fax machine. By Sec.227(b)(1)(C),
it is unlawful to send any unsolicited advertisement to such equipment.
By Sec.227(b)(3)(C), a violation of the aforementioned Section is
punishable by action to recover actual monetary loss, or $500,
whichever is greater, for each violation."

If you do send me unsolicited e-mail I will proof-read it at a rate
of $100 per hour (4 hour minimum).

[Alex R]

"Chris_S" > wrote in message
...
> > > There was no phosphate in the water at all.
>
> > Well, there's your problem.
>
> Gee, for years other people told me that the cause of BBA was too much
> phosphate. Now you say having no phosphate causes it. This is typical of
> the conflicting information I often here about BBA problems.
>
> Obviously you are of the camp that believes you can control BBA with the
> water. I bought into that mentality for years, and fought the BBA using
> that method. The BBA won. Maybe for some people, their water, their
> plants, and their type of BBA, that method can have some success. But it
is
> very clear from everything else I have read that more and more 'water
> treatment' people are becoming convinced that BBA is a different kind of
> problem entirely.

A single thing causing algae is a really bad way to think about it. So is
thinking that you can control it with water conditions. Sure, if you make
the water conditions perfect for the plants, the algae will subside. But
remove the plants, the algae will flourish under the same water parameters.
Again, it helps tremendously to think about the plant health, not the algae.
I know it's not easy because it's counterintuitive, and because we don't
know exactly why it works.

> I have seen really nice show aquariums with tons of plant growth and no
BBA.
> When I ask the aqua person how they did it, they tell me: "I rinse every
> plant in Chlorine before I put it in the tank - I don't let BBA in the
> tank". That is how they handle it, they prevent it.

That's because the plant care methodology is a relatively new idea and
because those people probably don't follow the online plant forums very
much. Those folks probably never even heard of adding phosphate.

> I've had plant growth through the top of the tank. Swords with 24 inch
> leaves, and so much plant growth I had to prune plants every week. Yet
the
> BBA never went away. I've read articles from other people who believed
that
> water control could combat BBA as well, yet they were left scratching
their
> heads when they lost the fight and the BBA kept growing.

That doesn't prove your plants were at the *peak* of their health. When I
say the plants must be as healthy as possible, I don't mean they should
simply be growing "well". I mean, they should be growing as fast as possible
under the available lighting, with every other nutrient being available to
support that growth. In effect, the lighting should be the limiting
nutrient. That means if 30 ppm CO2 is required for that kind of growth, then
25 ppm will not suffice. I don't see any indication that you have seriously
tried to satisfy your plants' every nutrient requirement in this way. It
doesn't matter if your plants appear to grow well. If they can grow better
still with the addition of some nutrient, then they are not growing their
best.

Maybe you can provide some details about tank such the lighting, what kind
of CO2 system, the daily CO2 levels, your dosing regimen and the amount and
type of plants, and we can advise you on what you can do to help the plants.

> I do not know if you have any BBA in your tank(s) right now, but if you
> would really like to test your theories in practice, I would be happy to
> send you some of mine. I can send you a rock or plant with the BBA
species
> I have. Just let me know.

Almost every tank has BBA cells in it, including mine. You cannot kill every
last algae cell with nutrient control. That's not the goal. I've had every
kind of algae for the first year of keeping plants (except GW). Believe me,
I was as frustrated as you are. I too was focusing on starving the algae.
All it did was change the predominant type of algae in my tank. Like you,
people were telling me that I should not have even a trace of PO4 in my
tank. I couldn't understand why I couldn't get a reading on my PO4 test, and
yet the algae was choking the plants. But then I started paying attention to
Tom Barr's posts on the APD, where he was suggesting supplementing PO4
instead of depriving your plants of it. That's what did it for me. I was
already adding everything else but PO4, and had a compressed CO2 system.
Since then, I've had minor algae outbreaks here and there. And it turned out
that each time the fix was to *increase* the amount of some nutrient,
whether it was CO2, NO3, or PO4. I keep my CO2 fairly high. But if it slips
for some reason, I get an almost immediate algae outbreak, even if the CO2
is still above 20 ppm. I still have some filamentous algae on the Rotalla
wallichi, which is the hardest plant to grow in my tank. That's why it's
probably the least healthy. I'm sure the solution is in adding the nutrients
more frequently than twice a week, so that the levels never fall very low.

If you send me a plant with algae on it, the algae will disappear through
pruning of old leaves and will not grow on the new ones. If you send me a
rock, it might actually take a long time for the algae to actually die off.
But if I clean off as much of it as possible first, it will not regrow
either.
__
Alex
pcalex (at) hotpop.com

[Chris_S]

> Maybe you can provide some details about tank such the lighting, what kind
> of CO2 system, the daily CO2 levels, your dosing regimen and the amount
and
> type of plants, and we can advise you on what you can do to help the
plants.

Here are some specs:

- Tank 100G
- Intake/Return pairs on each end of tank through bottom.
- Filters: Eheim 2226 and Eheim 2227 Wet/Dry.
2226 is for heating, CO2, and mechanical filtration.
2227 is for bio treatment, nitrogen cycle.
- Ebo Jager 250W Heater in Lifeguard A92-19 Heater Module.under cabinet.
- DIY CO2 injected into Heater module on 2226 return, 100% diffusion.
- (2) PowerCompact 65W 6700K lights.
- Test Kits: LaMotte, Salifert, Seachem.
- Flourite mixed into gravel with some tetra sticks.
- I have used Seachem Flourish, Potasium, Iron adders, and Vitragro, etc.
- About 16 fish right now, 5 very large angels. Pleco, 4-SAEs, 4-Octa, some
corys, etc.
- Plants, more than I can name. the swords got so big I finally had to get
rid of half of them. Crypts, some large ferns, apogeton, Valliseria, java
moss, lotus, some bush type plants I can't remember.

Temp: 80F
pH: 6.8
Ammon: 0 PPM
Nitrites: 0 PPM
Nitrates: 15PPM
Phos: 0.5 PPM
GH: 6 deg
Iron: 0.1 PPM
CO2: 25PPM

Like I said this new tank is only 6 weeks old, and I am still working on
getting the iron back up. The tank is weak right now on Nitrate and Iron.

> I keep my CO2 fairly high. But if it slips for some reason,
>I get an almost immediate algae outbreak, even if the CO2
> is still above 20 ppm.

Yeh of course, that's because your nutients are so high.

I've been running tanks for 20 years. I know most of the things that can go
wrong, why, and how to fix them. But BBA is different. Years ago even in
tanks where the water was garbage, out of wack, I had green algae but never
any BBA. After I got BBA 5 years ago, it makes no difference how good or
bad the water is. The BBA is always there regardless. That's why I've
given up on water control for BBA.

Thanks, Chris.

[Chris_S]

> Check with these guys:
> http://www.adelaideaquariums.com.au/products/treatments.html . They used
to
> have the product you want listed, can't find it right now, but they might
> still carry it. Send them an e-mail maybe. According to the web address,
> they're located in Australia, which means they probably wouldn't have a
> problem sending the stuff to the US. Anyway, just a thought.

Thanks, yeh I saw that site as well had it. Another in Spain, Mexico, and a
couple others as I recall in Taiwan. I may try them.

Chris.

[Chris_S]

> My bad, I thought you were asking how others deal with it, when they had
> it... I didn't realize you'd already made up your mind and was just
> searching for a specific answer to confirm you're already made up mind...

Sorry I'm so testy, but the title of the thread I started was "Eradicating
BBA". Water control in my opinion has no hope in Hell of 'eradicating' it.
Merely controlling it, and not even very well at that.

I want to get rid of the stuff, and I am certainly interested in any ideas
on that. The AZOO thing is something I did not know about, and that is new.
That's great news.

But I am just so tired, sick of, and frustrated by the water control
approach. I've seen that movie already and know the ending. I now consider
it a waste of time to persue any further. I'm sick of beautiful tanks
infested with BBA. I'm ready for chemical warfare. Whatever it takes. I
just want the BBA gone.

Thanks, Chris.

[Alex R]

"Chris_S" > wrote in message
...
>
> Here are some specs:
>
> - Tank 100G
> - DIY CO2 injected into Heater module on 2226 return, 100% diffusion.

Is this yeast CO2? If yes, then it's highly recommended to use a compressed
system on tank this size. But with your lighting, you might get away with a
yeast system.

> - (2) PowerCompact 65W 6700K lights.

That's only 1.3 W/g. It shouldn't be that hard to stop the algae at this
lighting. In other words, to make light as the limiting nutrient for your
plants.

> - Test Kits: LaMotte, Salifert, Seachem.
> - Flourite mixed into gravel with some tetra sticks.
> - I have used Seachem Flourish, Potasium, Iron adders, and Vitragro, etc.

Have you used Flourish and potassium at the same time? Or were they added
sort of ad hoc? You don't really need to use any other commercial additives
with Flourish. Just the macronutrients.

> - Plants, more than I can name. the swords got so big I finally had to
get
> rid of half of them. Crypts, some large ferns, apogeton, Valliseria, java
> moss, lotus, some bush type plants I can't remember.

> Nitrates: 15PPM
> Phos: 0.5 PPM
> GH: 6 deg
> Iron: 0.1 PPM
> CO2: 25PPM

Have you measured it both in the morning and in the evening?

> Like I said this new tank is only 6 weeks old, and I am still working on
> getting the iron back up. The tank is weak right now on Nitrate and Iron.

An iron test is not really a good indicator or iron availability for plants
for various reasons. Watch the new leaves of your fast-growing plants. If
they are pale or red, add more Flourish. It's not unusual to add several
times recommended amount of it. Do the nitrates naturally increase or
decrease? If they increase, that's not a good sign. Even at your lighting, I
think the plants should be able to overall reduce the NO3 from the water
column. It may not be necessary to add PO4, though.

> > I keep my CO2 fairly high. But if it slips for some reason,
> >I get an almost immediate algae outbreak, even if the CO2
> > is still above 20 ppm.
>
> Yeh of course, that's because your nutients are so high.

But the other nutrients are still high with adequate CO2. Why doesn't the
algae grow with high CO2?

> any BBA. After I got BBA 5 years ago, it makes no difference how good or
> bad the water is. The BBA is always there regardless. That's why I've
> given up on water control for BBA.

The most precise water control in the world wouldn't work if you don't think
about the plants. It's not the water parameters the algae responds to. It's
plant health. Again, I'm not sure how it's connected. It doesn't seem like
you've really tried focusing on plant health/growth before. Doing one thing
for the plants will not stop algae. The plants have to get enough of every
nutrient at the same time.
__
Alex

[Rick]

"Chris_S" > wrote in message
...
> > Check with these guys:
> > http://www.adelaideaquariums.com.au/products/treatments.html . They
used
> to
> > have the product you want listed, can't find it right now, but they
might
> > still carry it. Send them an e-mail maybe. According to the web
address,
> > they're located in Australia, which means they probably wouldn't have a
> > problem sending the stuff to the US. Anyway, just a thought.
>
> Thanks, yeh I saw that site as well had it. Another in Spain, Mexico, and
a
> couple others as I recall in Taiwan. I may try them.
>
> Chris.
>

hey Chris, bleach away man, bleach away. I feel your frustration and have
been there myself. Get rid of it and reestablish the tank and monitor it
closely for a return of BBA. I had it in a 20g planted tank and finally gave
up trying to control it. I had Molly's, SAE's, Otto's, Pleco's and nothing
would touch it even though some sites suggested they would eat the new
shoots I found that to be B.S. They didn't eat any of it. I bleached
everything, rocks, gravel, tank, filter, everything. You leave one spore
alive and it will come back. I bleached all the plants in a 20-1 solution
and most survived. The stuff has never come back, touch wood.. There is a
peroxide article you can peruse that you may want to consider but man for me
it was bleach.
http://www.malawicichlidhomepage.com/aquainfo/algae_peroxide.html

Rick

[Chris_S]

Hi Rick:

Ditto. Glad you can appreciate my position. I am also very grateful for
your feedback. It sounds like bleach is by far the most effective way to
deal with BBA. It has real results. That is the conclusion I have come to
as well.

I agree with everything you say. And that is why I think it is best to
bleach the whole tank in place, after removing the fish of course. That way
I kill the spores in the entire system: gravel, filters, pumbling,
everywhere all in one shot.

I have a question for you. What is your feeling about the reinfestation
potential from moving the fish into another clean water temp tank, and then
moving them back in? Do you feel that is enough to dillute down the BBA
spores from the clean water that minimal will be transported back in when I
return them? Anything else I can do here to help with the fish move?

I just want to make sure that after all this tank filling and draining the
BBA is truely gone. Like you say, I want every BBA spore dead or out of the
system.

When you say it never came back, that is really GREAT news. That's the
result I am hoping for.

Thanks, Chris.

[Happy'Cam'per]

Do a google search through this NG, There's tons of stuff about ferts
dosing.

--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**


"Harry Muscle" > wrote in message
...
> SNIP
> > >
> > Up your nutrients cut back on the length of light. I had plants with
> better
> > growths than my own beard. Cutting out the light doesn't do the
trick....
> > but increasing my light level to @ 2 watts/gallon, upping the CO2,
cutting
> > back 10 hrs a day of light, and the Tom Barr method of dosing nutrients
> > ......
> > slowly did the trick. along with manually trimming the worst of it.
> >
> > A hydrogen peroxide works well if you want to clean up a more delicate
> > plants.
> >
> > Now everything is fine, till I forget something .....;-) or go on
> vacation.
> >
> > bob
> >
> >
>
> Is there a website that elaborates on the Tom Barr method of dosing?
>
> Thanks,
> Harry
>
>
>
>
> -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

[Happy'Cam'per]

It has real results. That is the conclusion I have come to
> as well.

On the contrary my dear Watson ;)
It has Immediate visual results, but certainly not real.
This is as artificial as they come, you're cheating ;) where's the fun in
that? Go ahead and bleach your plants and equipment, give it a month and
write back and let us know if it has returned. This will be interesting to
know. You're still not dealing with the root cause. Patience is a game that
has more rewarding outcomes! Especially with planted tanks :)
Good luck.
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**

[Chris_S]

> Is this yeast CO2? If yes, then it's highly recommended to use a
compressed
> system on tank this size. But with your lighting, you might get away with
a
> yeast system.

I'm very happy with my CO2 system. Bare in mind I have 100% diffusion so
none of it gets wasted. It all goes into the water. I've got CO2 coming
out my ears. More than I need.

> > - (2) PowerCompact 65W 6700K lights.
> That's only 1.3 W/g.

Wattage per gallon is an incomplete rating. Meaningless without considering
lamp efficiency. PowerCompacts are T5 technology - extremely bright. You
cannot compare this by a wattage rating in the day of old T12 technology.
Apples and Oranges. T5's are used to light reef tanks. I've got tons of
light, if anything too much.

> Have you used Flourish and potassium at the same time?

Yes, for the last several weeks actually.

> Have you measured it both in the morning and in the evening?

Yes, the only thing that changes much is pH, and that by only about 0.2.

> An iron test is not really a good indicator or iron availability for
plants
> for various reasons. Watch the new leaves of your fast-growing plants. If
> they are pale or red, add more Flourish.

I've got bright green shoots coming out everywhere. The fern grew 12 inches
in a week.
I always have O2 bubbles on the leaves.

>> Do the nitrates naturally increase or decrease?

In the old 55G tank the Nitrates usually ran around 30-40PPM. I liked them
in that range. This new tank does not have much nitrate build up yet.

> It doesn't seem like you've really tried focusing on plant health/growth
before.

Really. Well I don't seem to have much problem growing plants.
Just can't stop the BBA from growing along with it.

Chris.

[Chris_S]

I'm cheating? No I've just got better things to do than beat my head
against the wall wasting my time. If you have weeds in your lawn, do you
think you can get rid of them by controlling how much grass fertilizer you
put on? No, you spray them and kill them. When your fish get sick do you
give them medicine? If they get parasites do you kill them with chemicals?
What's the difference?

IMHO fighting BBA with water control is a total waste of time. That works
for Green algae. It does not work for Red Algae which is fresh water
seaweed. It has to be killed.

I've been patient for 5 years putting up with this BBA and trying every kind
of water condition known to man. The root cause of BBA is bringing a plant
in with BBA on it - period. What, you think the stuff spontaneously
generates? BBA lives under all water conditions that support plants.
That's the problem.

I'm sick of looking at nice tanks infested with BBA. I want a clean tank
again.

Chris.

[Dick]

On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 09:10:07 GMT, "Chris_S" > wrote:

>I'm cheating? No I've just got better things to do than beat my head
>against the wall wasting my time. If you have weeds in your lawn, do you
>think you can get rid of them by controlling how much grass fertilizer you
>put on? No, you spray them and kill them. When your fish get sick do you
>give them medicine? If they get parasites do you kill them with chemicals?
>What's the difference?
>
>IMHO fighting BBA with water control is a total waste of time. That works
>for Green algae. It does not work for Red Algae which is fresh water
>seaweed. It has to be killed.
>
>I've been patient for 5 years putting up with this BBA and trying every kind
>of water condition known to man. The root cause of BBA is bringing a plant
>in with BBA on it - period. What, you think the stuff spontaneously
>generates? BBA lives under all water conditions that support plants.
>That's the problem.
>
>I'm sick of looking at nice tanks infested with BBA. I want a clean tank
>again.
>
>Chris.
>

I am surprised that there seems to be so much frustration. I rid my
75 gallon tank about 9 months ago. I didn't use any chemicals. I
don't use co2. I am not sure if any one of my changes was more
important than any other, but the combination did the trick.

Perhaps I have had success has to do with my limited plant selection.
My lights are under 2 wpg and I finally bought only plants that
accept that condition. If those not getting a fix are using high
light and/or co2 maybe that has something to do with the failures.

[Chris_S]

> Perhaps I have had success has to do with my limited plant selection.
> My lights are under 2 wpg and I finally bought only plants that
> accept that condition. If those not getting a fix are using high
> light and/or co2 maybe that has something to do with the failures.

Hey, count yourself lucky. There are around 200 species of fresh water Red
Algae so you may not have the same stuff others have. If you have any doubt
about how nasty and tenacious this stuff can be, just do a search for BBA
ALGAE or look at the following link:

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Algae/bleach.html

Chris.

[Rick]

"Chris_S" > wrote in message
...
> Hi Rick:
>
> Ditto. Glad you can appreciate my position. I am also very grateful for
> your feedback. It sounds like bleach is by far the most effective way to
> deal with BBA. It has real results. That is the conclusion I have come
to
> as well.
>
> I agree with everything you say. And that is why I think it is best to
> bleach the whole tank in place, after removing the fish of course. That
way
> I kill the spores in the entire system: gravel, filters, pumbling,
> everywhere all in one shot.
>
> I have a question for you. What is your feeling about the reinfestation
> potential from moving the fish into another clean water temp tank, and
then
> moving them back in? Do you feel that is enough to dillute down the BBA
> spores from the clean water that minimal will be transported back in when
I
> return them? Anything else I can do here to help with the fish move?
>
> I just want to make sure that after all this tank filling and draining the
> BBA is truely gone. Like you say, I want every BBA spore dead or out of
the
> system.
>
> When you say it never came back, that is really GREAT news. That's the
> result I am hoping for.
>
> Thanks, Chris.
>
>

I did not have any problem with the algae coming back. To tell you the truth
I never even thought about it perhaps coming back in with the fish although
I did bleach the net I used to take them out of the infected tank. In
response to HappyCampers post it has been over a year for me and it never
came back. I have 35 tanks running right now and every single one of them
has live plants of some sort with two larger one's heavily planted. I deal
with algae on a regular basis and I can handle cleaning glass and bleaching
the odd anubias or other slow growing plant or rock that gets some black
tuffs on it however once you get to the level of frustration I was at and
your at then kill it dead, dead dead and start over. Monitor for any signs
of it returning and it's probably then that if it does come back you may be
able to control it. I agree with others as far as dealing with the root
cause. I'm not even sure why it showed up in one of my tanks and not others.
Good luck with this Chris and obviously we are hoping you never see it again
but if it does come back then another approach may have to be considered.

Rick

[Chris_S]

The more I read about bleaching the more I hear people raving over its
success. One guy said he had been doing it since 1960. He said his tanks
go 5-10 years with absolutely no BBA problems - ZERO. Nearly everybody says
that when they get a reinfestation it is always due to something they put
into the tank later being lazy and not bleaching it. Or by adding water
from another tank. Their own mistakes.

I am extremely impressed. The reports are far better than I even expected.
Nearly everyone who has done it right says it really does works, they would
highly recommend it to others, and the BBA is deffinetly gone unless you do
something stupid and reintroduce it. One guy said he loves having the tanks
free of BBA because he can run his water anyway he likes and never has to
worry about BBA. He grows plants and forces the nutrients real high for
fast growth.

It is clear that one must treat the procedure seriously just like a
medically sterile operation. You have to think about everything that has
been in the infected tank and sterilize those things too. Nets you rarely
use, pH meters, tongs, tubes, etc. anything that ever touched the old tank
MUST be bleached before it ever goes back in again. The spores can be
anywhere. Quarantining the fish in another tank for a day to flush their
systems seems to be a very good idea as well, especially if they are SAEs.

They also say that most of the plants after bleaching do better than they
ever did before. Free of algae, their leaves can really go to work.
Beautiful leaves.

I'm sold. I'm planning on doing the bleach job next week. Have to get
everything prepared first. I'll repost after its done.

Thanks, Chris.

[RedForeman ©®]

What about a UV sterilizer???

--
RedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike
streetfighter!!!

==========================
2003 TRX450ES
1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
1987 TRX250R (sold)
1987 CBR600 Hurricane (sold)
1987 VFR700 Interceptor (sold)
1995 TRX300ex (sold)
2000 CBR600F4 silver/red (sold) *sniff*sniff*
'98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
==========================
ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø
"By US Code Title 47, Sec.227(a)(2)(B), a computer/modem/printer
meets the definition of a telephone fax machine. By Sec.227(b)(1)(C),
it is unlawful to send any unsolicited advertisement to such equipment.
By Sec.227(b)(3)(C), a violation of the aforementioned Section is
punishable by action to recover actual monetary loss, or $500,
whichever is greater, for each violation."

If you do send me unsolicited e-mail I will proof-read it at a rate
of $100 per hour (4 hour minimum).

[Chris_S]

I was reading up on that last night. They say they are very effective on
algae, but it of course needs to be in the water. UV would probably be very
good at preventing expansion of the BBA by killing the spores and gammets
traveling in the water. It would probably kill those outright which in
theory would stop the spread of BBA. But of course it would not do anything
for the stuff already on surfaces in the tank.

UV might be a good way to go for someone who wants to mechanically get rid
of what they can themselves, and then use the UV to kill the spread through
the water.

I'm going with Chlorine. The possibility of getting rid of BBA permanently
is just too attractive to pass up.

Chris.

[RedForeman ©®]

> I was reading up on that last night. They say they are very
> effective on algae, but it of course needs to be in the water. UV
> would probably be very good at preventing expansion of the BBA by
> killing the spores and gammets traveling in the water. It would
> probably kill those outright which in theory would stop the spread of
> BBA. But of course it would not do anything for the stuff already on
> surfaces in the tank.
>
> UV might be a good way to go for someone who wants to mechanically
> get rid of what they can themselves, and then use the UV to kill the
> spread through the water.
>
> I'm going with Chlorine. The possibility of getting rid of BBA
> permanently is just too attractive to pass up.
>
> Chris.

Good luck, and take pics, document and keep us posted... your endeavors will
save someone from giving up the hobby in years or days to come...

--
RedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike
streetfighter!!!

==========================
2003 TRX450ES
1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
1987 TRX250R (sold)
1987 CBR600 Hurricane (sold)
1987 VFR700 Interceptor (sold)
1995 TRX300ex (sold)
2000 CBR600F4 silver/red (sold) *sniff*sniff*
'98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
==========================
ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø
"By US Code Title 47, Sec.227(a)(2)(B), a computer/modem/printer
meets the definition of a telephone fax machine. By Sec.227(b)(1)(C),
it is unlawful to send any unsolicited advertisement to such equipment.
By Sec.227(b)(3)(C), a violation of the aforementioned Section is
punishable by action to recover actual monetary loss, or $500,
whichever is greater, for each violation."

If you do send me unsolicited e-mail I will proof-read it at a rate
of $100 per hour (4 hour minimum).

[Rick]

"RedForeman ©®" > wrote in message
...
>>
> Good luck, and take pics, document and keep us posted... your endeavors
will
> save someone from giving up the hobby in years or days to come...
>
> --
> RedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike
> streetfighter!!!
>

and therein my friend is the key. Many people have dumped this hobby because
of serious algae problems. You can literally feel the frustration in Chris's
posts and from reading his responses he has been in the hobby for years. Man
since this thread started I've found myself examining every tank very
closely. I have noticed some tufts on my driftwood and one rock in my big
planted tank. They hit the bleach today.

Rick

[RedForeman ©®]

> "RedForeman ©®" > wrote in message
>> Good luck, and take pics, document and keep us posted... your
>> endeavors will save someone from giving up the hobby in years or
>> days to come...
>
> and therein my friend is the key. Many people have dumped this hobby
> because of serious algae problems. You can literally feel the
> frustration in Chris's posts and from reading his responses he has
> been in the hobby for years. Man since this thread started I've found
> myself examining every tank very closely. I have noticed some tufts
> on my driftwood and one rock in my big planted tank. They hit the
> bleach today.
>
> Rick

Yeah, my 29g that Ive been battling now for 3 months, may just get the big
nuke... I've been leaning away from it... (lazy, too much work, etc) and I
really was hoping someone would chime in with more info, but it seems as
though Chris has done his homework and educated us all... When I went
looking for the info, it wasnt' there, or as much as it is now... which is
nice...

I'm like you, I'll be looking a bit more tonite...


--
RedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike
streetfighter!!!

==========================
2003 TRX450ES
1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
1987 TRX250R (sold)
1987 CBR600 Hurricane (sold)
1987 VFR700 Interceptor (sold)
1995 TRX300ex (sold)
2000 CBR600F4 silver/red (sold) *sniff*sniff*
'98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
==========================
ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø
"By US Code Title 47, Sec.227(a)(2)(B), a computer/modem/printer
meets the definition of a telephone fax machine. By Sec.227(b)(1)(C),
it is unlawful to send any unsolicited advertisement to such equipment.
By Sec.227(b)(3)(C), a violation of the aforementioned Section is
punishable by action to recover actual monetary loss, or $500,
whichever is greater, for each violation."

If you do send me unsolicited e-mail I will proof-read it at a rate
of $100 per hour (4 hour minimum).

[Giancarlo Podio]

I agree with happy camper on this one. You can nuke the tank but if
you don't fix the cause it will all come back. H2O2 is great to get
rid of algae in your tank without having to remove any plants or fish,
it just takes a long time as you can only treat a small section at a
time. I used up to 1ml per gallon without any problems, I used a
siringe to squirt the BBA directly on items that could not be pulled
out of the tank, then waited an hour and did a large water change. I
kept doing this before each weekly water change until everything was
gone. Obviously however, I had already fixed the cause of this algae
which was low CO2 levels in my case. Anything you can remove from the
tank, just dip it in a more concentrated H2O2 solution, it's a nice
product to use because you don't have to worry about rinsing
everything very well, just a quick rinse and put it back in the tank.
I even dipped anubias covered driftwood in a bucket with 5ml H2O2 per
gallon of water without any problems, just a little burned edges
around the leaves. Bleach is more agressive, more effective, but
requires you to remove everything including fish and plants, you'll
also probably loose your cycle if you're not careful, plus all that
rinsing and redoing the entire tank..... no thanks.

But definetly attack the cause first, once you have stopped it from
spreading and all that is left is removing what's already there, use
whichever method you prefer, bleach or H2O2, they both work.

Hope that helps
Giancarlo Podio

"Happy'Cam'per" > wrote in message >...
> It has real results. That is the conclusion I have come to
> > as well.
>
> On the contrary my dear Watson ;)
> It has Immediate visual results, but certainly not real.
> This is as artificial as they come, you're cheating ;) where's the fun in
> that? Go ahead and bleach your plants and equipment, give it a month and
> write back and let us know if it has returned. This will be interesting to
> know. You're still not dealing with the root cause. Patience is a game that
> has more rewarding outcomes! Especially with planted tanks :)
> Good luck.

[Alex R]

"Chris_S" > wrote in message news:OpU5c.59066
> > It doesn't seem like you've really tried focusing on plant health/growth
> before.
>
> Really. Well I don't seem to have much problem growing plants.
> Just can't stop the BBA from growing along with it.

I'm sorry, but I don't think you've really understood what I've been saying
all along. You can grow plants very well with less than optimal conditions.
In my algae days, I've had great plant growth, but the algae was still
overwhelming to say the least. It wasn't until I started to provide
*everything* my plants needed that I got my break with algae. If there's
anything I learned, it's that the more you fight algae, the more
"aggressive" it becomes. That's why "water control" methods don't work if
the only goal you have in mind is stopping algae.

But judging from your other posts in this thread, you're not really
interested in getting specific help. You're just seeking approval for your
bleaching method. I highly doubt that your tank has some algae species
that's non-existent in almost every other algae-free tank. There is no quick
cure for algae, IMO.
__
Alex R

[Alex R]

"Chris_S" > wrote in message
...
> against the wall wasting my time. If you have weeds in your lawn, do you
> think you can get rid of them by controlling how much grass fertilizer you
> put on? No, you spray them and kill them.

I'm pretty sure spraying is not the proper way to take care of weeds. I
believe it's saturating your lawn with desired grass by properly feeding it,
etc., so that weeds don't have any space to grow. Very similar principle to
planted tanks regarding plants/algae.

> When your fish get sick do you
> give them medicine?

No. The proper way is to correct the stressful conditions in your aquarium.
If they weren't stressful in the first place, your fish wouldn't get sick.
Again, similarity to plants/algae.

> If they get parasites do you kill them with chemicals?

Parasites shouldn't be there in the first place. They can't be compared to
algae because algae is a natural part of any aquarium ecosystem.

> What's the difference?

The difference is taking the newbie approach or taking the more experienced
approch.
__
Alex
pcalex (at) hotpop.com

[Dick]

On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 13:52:05 GMT, "Chris_S" > wrote:

>> Perhaps I have had success has to do with my limited plant selection.
>> My lights are under 2 wpg and I finally bought only plants that
>> accept that condition. If those not getting a fix are using high
>> light and/or co2 maybe that has something to do with the failures.
>
>Hey, count yourself lucky. There are around 200 species of fresh water Red
>Algae so you may not have the same stuff others have. If you have any doubt
>about how nasty and tenacious this stuff can be, just do a search for BBA
>ALGAE or look at the following link:
>
>http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Algae/bleach.html
>
>Chris.
>
I was not lucky for 3 or 4 months. I did a lot of reading and
experimenting. I am grateful that my tank survived. I may not be
able to pin down the exact cure, but I do not I got rid of a nasty
problem. I am just doing my best to share. I don't need to read
another article to know that BBA is hard to get rid of. I lived the
problem long enough.

[Rick]

"RedForeman ©®" > wrote in message
...
> > "RedForeman ©®" > wrote in message
> >> Good luck, and take pics, document and keep us posted... your
> >> endeavors will save someone from giving up the hobby in years or
> >> days to come...
> >
> > and therein my friend is the key. Many people have dumped this hobby
> > because of serious algae problems. You can literally feel the
> > frustration in Chris's posts and from reading his responses he has
> > been in the hobby for years. Man since this thread started I've found
> > myself examining every tank very closely. I have noticed some tufts
> > on my driftwood and one rock in my big planted tank. They hit the
> > bleach today.
> >
> > Rick
>
> Yeah, my 29g that Ive been battling now for 3 months, may just get the big
> nuke... I've been leaning away from it... (lazy, too much work, etc) and
I
> really was hoping someone would chime in with more info, but it seems as
> though Chris has done his homework and educated us all... When I went
> looking for the info, it wasnt' there, or as much as it is now... which is
> nice...
>
> I'm like you, I'll be looking a bit more tonite...
>
>
> --
> RedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike
> streetfighter!!!
>
>
it's been an interesting thread with lots of good information. If I was just
noticing the start of an outbreak then I would manually trim off the
affected leaves, check water parameters, make sure I was getting lots of CO2
saturation and try to deal with it without the big nuke but once it gets
rampant in the tank then why fool around. Get rid of it and start over. In
my case I always have lots of filters running and tanks with seasoned gravel
so I don't have to worry about cycling the tank all over again. Chris,
looking back over your posts you gave water conditions with a GH of 6
degrees and CO2 at 25 PPM . I assume if you measured GH that you measured KH
also?

Rick

[RedForeman ©®]

> But judging from your other posts in this thread, you're not really
> interested in getting specific help. You're just seeking approval for
> your bleaching method. I highly doubt that your tank has some algae
> species that's non-existent in almost every other algae-free tank.
> There is no quick cure for algae, IMO.
> __
> Alex R

I was thinking the same thing, until I did a simple search on 'red algae'
and after several pages of reading, it became clean, Neil Frank determined
that there wasn't a limit, or overabundance of anything, except this red
algae.. It won't starve, because it creates it's own food, you can't kill
it, simply...

I know, I'm back tracking a bit... but only because I did a bit MORE
research and learned that even good ideas are sometimes aimed at the wrong
target... Nutrients won't kill/starve/rid yourself of red, RED algae..

I'm not trying to sway your thoughts, here's what I read. it's all about the
Rhodophyta (red algae)
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Algae/brush-algae.html
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Algae/red-algae.html
http://www.netpets.com/fish/reference/reefref/cyanobacteria.html

I have seen that black brush algae, is in fact red algae.... In older stages
of it, it does have a red hue to it, and when old, it becomes grayish, white
and then becomes nearly impossible to pull off plants, and devices...

Hey, aren't we all learning a bit from this?? I know I am.... I learned
that I'm going to buy a couple gallons of bleach this weekend....

^?^

--
RedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike
streetfighter!!!

==========================
2003 TRX450ES
1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
1987 TRX250R (sold)
1987 CBR600 Hurricane (sold)
1987 VFR700 Interceptor (sold)
1995 TRX300ex (sold)
2000 CBR600F4 silver/red (sold) *sniff*sniff*
'98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
==========================
ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø
"By US Code Title 47, Sec.227(a)(2)(B), a computer/modem/printer
meets the definition of a telephone fax machine. By Sec.227(b)(1)(C),
it is unlawful to send any unsolicited advertisement to such equipment.
By Sec.227(b)(3)(C), a violation of the aforementioned Section is
punishable by action to recover actual monetary loss, or $500,
whichever is greater, for each violation."

If you do send me unsolicited e-mail I will proof-read it at a rate
of $100 per hour (4 hour minimum).

[Happy'Cam'per]

No Red NOooooooooo....Don't do it, come back to the light side ;) Don't let
these heathens suck you down. LOL :)
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**




"RedForeman ©®" > wrote in message
...
> > But judging from your other posts in this thread, you're not really
> > interested in getting specific help. You're just seeking approval for
> > your bleaching method. I highly doubt that your tank has some algae
> > species that's non-existent in almost every other algae-free tank.
> > There is no quick cure for algae, IMO.
> > __
> > Alex R
>
> I was thinking the same thing, until I did a simple search on 'red algae'
> and after several pages of reading, it became clean, Neil Frank determined
> that there wasn't a limit, or overabundance of anything, except this red
> algae.. It won't starve, because it creates it's own food, you can't kill
> it, simply...
>
> I know, I'm back tracking a bit... but only because I did a bit MORE
> research and learned that even good ideas are sometimes aimed at the wrong
> target... Nutrients won't kill/starve/rid yourself of red, RED algae..
>
> I'm not trying to sway your thoughts, here's what I read. it's all about
the
> Rhodophyta (red algae)
> http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Algae/brush-algae.html
> http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Algae/red-algae.html
> http://www.netpets.com/fish/reference/reefref/cyanobacteria.html
>
> I have seen that black brush algae, is in fact red algae.... In older
stages
> of it, it does have a red hue to it, and when old, it becomes grayish,
white
> and then becomes nearly impossible to pull off plants, and devices...
>
> Hey, aren't we all learning a bit from this?? I know I am.... I learned
> that I'm going to buy a couple gallons of bleach this weekend....
>
> ^?^
>
> --
> RedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike
> streetfighter!!!
>
> ==========================
> 2003 TRX450ES
> 1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
> 1987 TRX250R (sold)
> 1987 CBR600 Hurricane (sold)
> 1987 VFR700 Interceptor (sold)
> 1995 TRX300ex (sold)
> 2000 CBR600F4 silver/red (sold) *sniff*sniff*
> '98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
> ==========================
> ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø
> "By US Code Title 47, Sec.227(a)(2)(B), a computer/modem/printer
> meets the definition of a telephone fax machine. By Sec.227(b)(1)(C),
> it is unlawful to send any unsolicited advertisement to such equipment.
> By Sec.227(b)(3)(C), a violation of the aforementioned Section is
> punishable by action to recover actual monetary loss, or $500,
> whichever is greater, for each violation."
>
> If you do send me unsolicited e-mail I will proof-read it at a rate
> of $100 per hour (4 hour minimum).
>
>

[RedForeman ©®]

> No Red NOooooooooo....Don't do it, come back to the light side ;)
> Don't let these heathens suck you down. LOL :)

HA-HA!!! I'm not particularly looking forward to it, I'm trying the CO2,
ferts idea for a while first... but after some reading... eeehh???

--
RedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike
streetfighter!!!

==========================
2003 TRX450ES
1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
1987 TRX250R (sold)
1987 CBR600 Hurricane (sold)
1987 VFR700 Interceptor (sold)
1995 TRX300ex (sold)
2000 CBR600F4 silver/red (sold) *sniff*sniff*
'98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
==========================
ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø
"By US Code Title 47, Sec.227(a)(2)(B), a computer/modem/printer
meets the definition of a telephone fax machine. By Sec.227(b)(1)(C),
it is unlawful to send any unsolicited advertisement to such equipment.
By Sec.227(b)(3)(C), a violation of the aforementioned Section is
punishable by action to recover actual monetary loss, or $500,
whichever is greater, for each violation."

If you do send me unsolicited e-mail I will proof-read it at a rate
of $100 per hour (4 hour minimum).

[Chris_S]

This has been quite a lively discussion. I had no idea when I posted my
question that I was opening pandora's box. Reading some of the other last
posts above is fascinating. I can't help but think about the political and
social persuasions behind some of these posts.

I really never gave it any thought before that asking a question about
aquariums had social aspects to it, but I see now that the response of a
particular person to such a question is entirely prejudiced by their own
envrionmental point of view.

I am certainly in the camp that believes technology is a good thing and to
be used to the fullest extent. Others are obviously more in the eco-nature
group that don't like chemicals. I wonder if they go to doctors or refuse
all medicine. In any event, I like living in the modern technology based
society and have no desire to follow the teachings of the Kaczynski
manifesto, or to return to those fun filled times of the middle ages where
they probably had little time for aquariums. But I digress...

> I assume if you measured GH that you measured KH also?

I lost my KH test kit sometime ago. The results of GH/FH were never very
interesting. My water is always mild here. Nothing special hard or soft
wise. Tap water is always 7.0 ph here. I don't use the test kits much
anymore. I have a bunch of them, but I can tell what they will say just by
looking at the tank.

Chris.

[Paulo]

"Chris_S" > wrote in message
...
> This has been quite a lively discussion. I had no idea when I posted my
> question that I was opening pandora's box. Reading some of the other last
> posts above is fascinating. I can't help but think about the political
and
> social persuasions behind some of these posts.
>
> I really never gave it any thought before that asking a question about
> aquariums had social aspects to it, but I see now that the response of a
> particular person to such a question is entirely prejudiced by their own
> envrionmental point of view.
>
> I am certainly in the camp that believes technology is a good thing and to
> be used to the fullest extent. Others are obviously more in the
eco-nature
> group that don't like chemicals. I wonder if they go to doctors or refuse
> all medicine. In any event, I like living in the modern technology based
> society and have no desire to follow the teachings of the Kaczynski
> manifesto, or to return to those fun filled times of the middle ages where
> they probably had little time for aquariums. But I digress...
>
> > I assume if you measured GH that you measured KH also?
>
> I lost my KH test kit sometime ago. The results of GH/FH were never very
> interesting. My water is always mild here. Nothing special hard or soft
> wise. Tap water is always 7.0 ph here. I don't use the test kits much
> anymore. I have a bunch of them, but I can tell what they will say just
by
> looking at the tank.

Hey , "looking at the tank" its not very cientific or technological!!! I
guess also you use your "intuition" or inner you....JMHO


>
> Chris.
>
>

[Rick]

"Chris_S" > wrote in message
...
> This has been quite a lively discussion. I had no idea when I posted my
> question that I was opening pandora's box. Reading some of the other last
> posts above is fascinating. I can't help but think about the political
and
> social persuasions behind some of these posts.
>
> I really never gave it any thought before that asking a question about
> aquariums had social aspects to it, but I see now that the response of a
> particular person to such a question is entirely prejudiced by their own
> envrionmental point of view.
>
> I am certainly in the camp that believes technology is a good thing and to
> be used to the fullest extent. Others are obviously more in the
eco-nature
> group that don't like chemicals. I wonder if they go to doctors or refuse
> all medicine. In any event, I like living in the modern technology based
> society and have no desire to follow the teachings of the Kaczynski
> manifesto, or to return to those fun filled times of the middle ages where
> they probably had little time for aquariums. But I digress...
>
> > I assume if you measured GH that you measured KH also?
>
> I lost my KH test kit sometime ago. The results of GH/FH were never very
> interesting. My water is always mild here. Nothing special hard or soft
> wise. Tap water is always 7.0 ph here. I don't use the test kits much
> anymore. I have a bunch of them, but I can tell what they will say just
by
> looking at the tank.
>
> Chris.
>
so how did you determine that your CO2 level is 25 PPM? Are you going by
your PH levels and what your KH used to be. I think you posted that your GH
was 6 degrees. With a PH of 6.8 and at about 25 ppm CO2 you would or should
have a KH around 5.6 d or 100 PPM. Your KH should be about 70% (if I
remember correctly) of your GH. I'm not sure if having your GH and KH about
the same would have any effect or not.

Rick

Rick

[Marvin Hlavac]

> This has been quite a lively discussion. I had no
> idea when I posted my question that I was


Yours was definitely post of the month!


> I can't help but think about the political and
> social persuasions behind some of these posts.


This is a hobby and many like to practice it in different ways. I wouldn't
say somebody else's method is better or worse if it achieves the same
result. I however, like you Chris, prefer the quicker and less painful way
to my goal. (If I were a female going to give a child birth I wouldn't be a
hero but I would ask for strong pain killers).

Just one question. I know you did try SAE's at one point and they didn't
help. Do you still have them in that affected tank? When I was in a similar
situation I noticed SAE's only being interested in the new algae growth. The
old, long stuff, they would not touch. Some leaves that had a lot of it were
cut. Some plants were bleached. It's been well over a year and no BBA (and
no other algae) problem.

I would not worry about every little spore of algae. If you are willing to
have some SAE's you should be okay.

--
Regards,
Marvin Hlavac
Toronto, Canada

[Aqua]

> Is there a website that elaborates on the Tom Barr method of dosing?

http://www.dlink.org/aqua/e_index.html

[Rick]

"Aqua" > wrote in message
om...
> > Is there a website that elaborates on the Tom Barr method of dosing?
>
> http://www.dlink.org/aqua/e_index.html


Tom is a regular contributor to the Aquatic Plants list which you can join
at

http://www.actwin.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/aquatic-plants. This is an
excellent site for just about everything to do with plants and even fish.
Members of the group are very helpful and include several noted plant
experts. Join the list and post a message giving complete details of your
tank, water, plant load, etc and ask for advice on Tom Barr dosing. I'm sure
you will find that Tom will come back with a dosing schedule for you.
Basically Tom's method or at least the one he provided me was dry dosing
ferts a couple of times a week and doing weekly 50% water changes which
resets the tank and does not allow the ferts to build up to dangerous
levels. I did it since November and it did improve the overall condition of
my plants. I have just recently gone back to dosing PMDD and biweekly water
changes to see what if any difference it will make.

Rick

[Robert Flory]

"Chris_S" > wrote in message
...
> I guess I no longer believe that there are any water conditions under
which
> BBA will not survive. Sure you can make it grow faster or slower, but the
> point is it keeps growing once it is in your tank. That is not true with
> Green algae. That you can control and essentially make it disappear.
I've
> never had any significant problem with Green algae.
>

> Once you have it in your tank, well I guess you could say it's probably
like
> having Herpes. You just have to learn how to live with it. I am fed up
> living with it and I want it out.
>
> Regards, Chris.
>
You are right in one regard, there are not really any water conditions where
BBA won't grow. There are conditions where plants grow well enough that BBA
essentially disappears. Spores are everywhere, no matter what you do sooner
or later everything will find its way into your tank. If you have good
balanced conditions you don't have problems. Sadly balanced conditions in a
tiny artificial ecosystem are hard to come by.

You need balanced conditions where the plants grow well and they will not be
over powered by algae. You can spend bucks testing or use Tom's method of
dosing ferts and water changes.

A lot of Tom's ideas are based on solid experimental work and research. It
is fascinating to spend part of an afternoon listening to him talk about the
science and practical experience behind his ideas with experienced planted
aquarium types. I have to chuckle watching guys with kids (and tanks) older
than Tom listen and agree with his methods.

It isn't the only way, but it works. I personally have had really bad
experience with chemicals.

Actually I had my best luck using pristine water out of the big springs
along the Snake River. Never had any kind of problems, but it is a bit of a
long drive these days from the Bay Area.

Bob

[Robert Flory]

"RedForeman ©®" > wrote in message
...
>
> I can only offer 2 words of advice...
>
> Manual Removal - if it's not there, it_Can't_ grow... right?
>
> If you have it, you must "Manually Remove" what you can... on substrate,
> plants, equipment... entirely submersing them in chlorine will chemically
> remove it... getting rid of it, totally is a hard job... slow but steady
> manual removal is indeed the slowest but most promising method. A little
at
> a time, will rid your tank of it...
>
> Ok, with that said, I ask, will it grow back? If you repeat what started
> it, yes... If you follow a somewhat strict regimen of CO2, Ferts, and
water
> changes, it'll probably STOP growing, go dormant and may even subside...
> that I cannot prove, but mine is no longer growing....
>
> When all else seems like it'll too fail, you can always try what someone
> suggests... it doesn't hurt.. I was the one saying I was going to tear
this
> tank down to the stand and clean it... instead, I removed it manually,
added
> CO2, and ferts, and slowly but surely, it's being removed.... daily.
>
> --
> RedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike streetfighter!!!

Mine hides under a tangled mess of Java fern. One of these I'll have to pull
the fern for a peroxide dip, but I'm lazy and it is behaving ;-)

bob

[Robert Flory]

"RedForeman ©®" > wrote in message
...
> > No Red NOooooooooo....Don't do it, come back to the light side ;)
> > Don't let these heathens suck you down. LOL :)
>
> HA-HA!!! I'm not particularly looking forward to it, I'm trying the CO2,
> ferts idea for a while first... but after some reading... eeehh???
>
> --
> RedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike
> streetfighter!!!
Actually peroxide does just as well, it dies and ... turns white or pink,
then often gets eaten....

I've been told a big syringe using a needle for proper placement can kill it
in the tank. never tried that though. Might beat tearing up the tank.

Bob

[Rick]

"Robert Flory" > wrote in message
...
>
> "RedForeman ©®" > wrote in message
> ...
> > > No Red NOooooooooo....Don't do it, come back to the light side ;)
> > > Don't let these heathens suck you down. LOL :)
> >
> > HA-HA!!! I'm not particularly looking forward to it, I'm trying the CO2,
> > ferts idea for a while first... but after some reading... eeehh???
> >
> > --
> > RedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike
> > streetfighter!!!
> Actually peroxide does just as well, it dies and ... turns white or pink,
> then often gets eaten....
>
> I've been told a big syringe using a needle for proper placement can kill
it
> in the tank. never tried that though. Might beat tearing up the tank.
>
> Bob
>
I have tried peroxide and it did work although somewhat difficult to direct
a flow of liquid underwater onto a particular target. It is a long process
as you do it a bit at a time if the fish are still in the tank.

Rick