Odd Cloudy Water Question/Problem

[Tom Hale]

First, sorry for the multiple cross-posts.
Second, sorry about the length.

I have a 55g Tall homemade tank that has about 3" of Laterite and
gravel mix. Tank has like 3-4 WPG and is moderately planted. About 9
months ago, with 2 angels and a pleco in the tank, the water turned
greyish-cloudy. Water changes did nothing. Nor did not feeding or
fertilizing or removing light, at least at first. After about 2 weeks
without light and food, the cloudiness cleared up. As soon as I fed
them again, it came back, full force. Things happened and I didn't
get to work with it until last month. Turns out one angel died. So
did several plants. I drained all but about 4" from the gravel down,
and removed the false rocks to be cleaned. I did leave some rocks
that I got from my back yard in there tho. After refilling, the water
was clear for about 3 days. By the third day it was slightly cloudy
again. Since, I can do a 25% - 40% water change at night and by the
next night it is cloudy again. Water has been tested several times by
the LFS and everything checks out fine. Added plants and filtration
and those are doing fine, I actually even get pearling after I water
change and the plants get light. Fish seem fine, and I had to add a
clown loach and a few tetras due to some other issues with another
tank. I have tried Formalin, at the recommendation of a friend. Also
tried changing food, removing the "real" rocks from my yard, and
Mardel's Clear Water. Nothing seems to work. Right now the only
problem is that the tank is cloudy when you want to watch the fish,
but I don't want to get any more fish until I get this sorted out.
ANY help is appreciated.

I thought it might be an algae bloom and asked to borrow my friends
diatom filter, but he doesn't think it's algae since it re-appears
overnight. I also changed to 2 Penguin Bio-Wheel 170's thinking it
might be bacterial and they needed a home.

Last time LFS checked water I had no Nitrates, Nitrites, barely any
Ammonia, proper salinity(if not a bit low, according to them), and
good KH and GH.

Thanks in advance.

T.

[NetMax]

"Tom Hale" > wrote in message
om...
> First, sorry for the multiple cross-posts.
> Second, sorry about the length.
>
> I have a 55g Tall homemade tank that has about 3" of Laterite and

Anecdotal, but I set up a couple of tanks with Laterite/gravel mix and
was constantly having problems with keeping the water clear. My solution
was eventually to dump the Laterite/gravel and restart the tank with only
a new bag of the same gravel used before. Worked for me. Now when I
want to toy with specialty gravel, I use Flourite.

NetMax

<snip>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> T.

[RedForeman ©®]

> I have a 55g Tall homemade tank that has about 3" of Laterite and
> gravel mix. Tank has like 3-4 WPG and is moderately planted. About 9
> months ago, with 2 angels and a pleco in the tank, the water turned
> greyish-cloudy. Water changes did nothing. Nor did not feeding or
> fertilizing or removing light, at least at first. After about 2 weeks
> without light and food, the cloudiness cleared up. As soon as I fed
> them again, it came back, full force. Things happened and I didn't
> get to work with it until last month. Turns out one angel died. So
> did several plants. I drained all but about 4" from the gravel down,
> and removed the false rocks to be cleaned. I did leave some rocks
> that I got from my back yard in there tho. After refilling, the water
> was clear for about 3 days. By the third day it was slightly cloudy
> again. Since, I can do a 25% - 40% water change at night and by the
> next night it is cloudy again. Water has been tested several times by
> the LFS and everything checks out fine. Added plants and filtration
> and those are doing fine, I actually even get pearling after I water
> change and the plants get light. Fish seem fine, and I had to add a
> clown loach and a few tetras due to some other issues with another
> tank. I have tried Formalin, at the recommendation of a friend. Also
> tried changing food, removing the "real" rocks from my yard, and
> Mardel's Clear Water. Nothing seems to work. Right now the only
> problem is that the tank is cloudy when you want to watch the fish,
> but I don't want to get any more fish until I get this sorted out.
> ANY help is appreciated.
>
> I thought it might be an algae bloom and asked to borrow my friends
> diatom filter, but he doesn't think it's algae since it re-appears
> overnight. I also changed to 2 Penguin Bio-Wheel 170's thinking it
> might be bacterial and they needed a home.
>
> Last time LFS checked water I had no Nitrates, Nitrites, barely any
> Ammonia, proper salinity(if not a bit low, according to them), and
> good KH and GH.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> T.

You're not the first person who has come here with that complaint, and to my
recollection, they were all linked back to the use of Laterite...

Suggestion: regular gravel and flourite, you'll have cloudiness for a few
days, but nothing like you're talking about... it's the kind that won't come
back unless you turn the gravel/flourite over once a day....

--
RedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike
streetfighter!!!

==========================
2003 TRX450ES
1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
1987 TRX250R (sold)
1987 CBR600 Hurricane (sold)
1987 VFR700 Interceptor (sold)
1995 TRX300ex (sold)
2000 CBR600F4 silver/red (sold) *sniff*sniff*
'98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
==========================

[Tom Hale]

"RedForeman ©®" > wrote in message
> You're not the first person who has come here with that complaint, and to my
> recollection, they were all linked back to the use of Laterite...
>
> Suggestion: regular gravel and flourite, you'll have cloudiness for a few
> days, but nothing like you're talking about... it's the kind that won't come
> back unless you turn the gravel/flourite over once a day....
>

Ok, Stupid question time.

#1: How much flourite per gallon if I wanna use it with gravel? (Tank
is a 55g tall)

#2: Is there an easy way to remove the Laterite from the current
gravel?

#3: Could it be the amount of water movement/filtration I have? A
friend of mine has never had this problem, and he is the one who
recommended Laterite to me, he uses it without problem.

#4: Does anyone else use Laterite without this problem?

Thanks for all the help.

T.

[NetMax]

"Tom Hale" > wrote in message
om...
> "RedForeman ©®" > wrote in message
> > You're not the first person who has come here with that complaint,
and to my
> > recollection, they were all linked back to the use of Laterite...
> >
> > Suggestion: regular gravel and flourite, you'll have cloudiness for a
few
> > days, but nothing like you're talking about... it's the kind that
won't come
> > back unless you turn the gravel/flourite over once a day....
> >
>
> Ok, Stupid question time.
>
> #1: How much flourite per gallon if I wanna use it with gravel? (Tank
> is a 55g tall)

They would like you to use 100% flourite, but many people do a 50/50
split. Why not just use gravel?

> #2: Is there an easy way to remove the Laterite from the current
> gravel?

It would depend on your gravel size. In my younger days when I had less
money and more patience, I'd sieve different size substrates apart (sunny
day, sitting in the driveway with a cold beer). The closer they are in
size, the more impossible it becomes to seperate them.

You might find that blasting it with water, the laterite is lighter and
pours over the edge (tank outside on your driveway).

> #3: Could it be the amount of water movement/filtration I have? A
> friend of mine has never had this problem, and he is the one who
> recommended Laterite to me, he uses it without problem.

Nope. In my case, I had very little water movement in either of my
affected tanks.

> #4: Does anyone else use Laterite without this problem?

I hope so, it's been around for ages. Maybe it's related to the amount
of bio-film you can accumulate around the laterite grains, so low
fish-load tanks would take longer than higher fish load tanks to
stabilze? (I'm just guessing).

r.a.f.p. should be the best place for experienced advice on this stuff.

NetMax

> Thanks for all the help.
>
> T.

[RedForeman ©®]

> Ok, Stupid question time.

There are no stupid questions, just silly answers...

> #1: How much flourite per gallon if I wanna use it with gravel? (Tank
> is a 55g tall)

I used 4 bags of flourite and 2 bags of similar colored gravel, near the
same size. I'd guess 6 bags for your 55, but I agree with NetMax, 90% of
people mix it, to make it go farther...

> #2: Is there an easy way to remove the Laterite from the current
> gravel?

Maybe just chunk it... Sorry about the cost... but hold on a minute....

> #3: Could it be the amount of water movement/filtration I have? A
> friend of mine has never had this problem, and he is the one who
> recommended Laterite to me, he uses it without problem.

If you have alot, I mean ALOT of movement, then you're really just stirring
it up yourself... How about running your HOB filter, ONLY.... give it a day
or so to settle down... See what happens... alot of it IS trial and error...
It is totally possible you are pushing too much water around and the
laterite can't settle down enough, allowing it to become suspended inthe
water column...

> #4: Does anyone else use Laterite without this problem?

I've only and always used Flourite... I love the look of laterite, but I
started to use it in a 10g, and ended up taking it back, it was too light,
like potting soil... Just didn't like it.. I got black onyx sand instead...

--
RedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike
streetfighter!!!

==========================
2003 TRX450ES
1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
1987 TRX250R (sold)
1987 CBR600 Hurricane (sold)
1987 VFR700 Interceptor (sold)
1995 TRX300ex (sold)
2000 CBR600F4 silver/red (sold) *sniff*sniff*
'98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
==========================
ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø
"By US Code Title 47, Sec.227(a)(2)(B), a computer/modem/printer
meets the definition of a telephone fax machine. By Sec.227(b)(1)(C),
it is unlawful to send any unsolicited advertisement to such equipment.
By Sec.227(b)(3)(C), a violation of the aforementioned Section is
punishable by action to recover actual monetary loss, or $500,
whichever is greater, for each violation."

If you do send me unsolicited e-mail I will proof-read it at a rate
of $100 per hour (4 hour minimum).

[NetMax]

"RedForeman ©®" > wrote in message
...
> > Ok, Stupid question time.
>
> There are no stupid questions, just silly answers...
>
> > #1: How much flourite per gallon if I wanna use it with gravel? (Tank
> > is a 55g tall)
>
> I used 4 bags of flourite and 2 bags of similar colored gravel, near
the
> same size. I'd guess 6 bags for your 55, but I agree with NetMax, 90%
of
> people mix it, to make it go farther...
>
> > #2: Is there an easy way to remove the Laterite from the current
> > gravel?
>
> Maybe just chunk it... Sorry about the cost... but hold on a minute....
>
> > #3: Could it be the amount of water movement/filtration I have? A
> > friend of mine has never had this problem, and he is the one who
> > recommended Laterite to me, he uses it without problem.
>
> If you have alot, I mean ALOT of movement, then you're really just
stirring
> it up yourself... How about running your HOB filter, ONLY.... give it a
day
> or so to settle down... See what happens... alot of it IS trial and
error...
> It is totally possible you are pushing too much water around and the
> laterite can't settle down enough, allowing it to become suspended
inthe
> water column...

That's a good point. Whenever I use sand as a substrate, I turn off all
pumps and filters for a couple if days, and let the particulates settle
to the bottom. This way only the uppermost layer is as volatile to
return to the water column, and this layer tends to get a bit of a slime
coat on it, helping keep it down.

Another option is to pour in a flocculent, and use some fine disposable
floss in your filter for a few days. I think RedForeman ©® is on the
right track in trying to get your conditions to where the filters can
keep the water clean. It's worth a few trys before you tear it apart.

NetMax

> > #4: Does anyone else use Laterite without this problem?
>
> I've only and always used Flourite... I love the look of laterite, but
I
> started to use it in a 10g, and ended up taking it back, it was too
light,
> like potting soil... Just didn't like it.. I got black onyx sand
instead...
>
> --
> RedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike
> streetfighter!!!
>
> ==========================
> 2003 TRX450ES
> 1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
> 1987 TRX250R (sold)
> 1987 CBR600 Hurricane (sold)
> 1987 VFR700 Interceptor (sold)
> 1995 TRX300ex (sold)
> 2000 CBR600F4 silver/red (sold) *sniff*sniff*
> '98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
> ==========================
> ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø
> "By US Code Title 47, Sec.227(a)(2)(B), a computer/modem/printer
> meets the definition of a telephone fax machine. By Sec.227(b)(1)(C),
> it is unlawful to send any unsolicited advertisement to such equipment.
> By Sec.227(b)(3)(C), a violation of the aforementioned Section is
> punishable by action to recover actual monetary loss, or $500,
> whichever is greater, for each violation."
>
> If you do send me unsolicited e-mail I will proof-read it at a rate
> of $100 per hour (4 hour minimum).
>
>

[Happy'Cam'per]

Netmax, I think you are right, you have to give the new substrate time to
get covered in biofilm, this will bind things a bit. The OP must just be
patient.
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**


"NetMax" > wrote in message
...
>
> "RedForeman ©®" > wrote in message
> ...
> > > Ok, Stupid question time.
> >
> > There are no stupid questions, just silly answers...
> >
> > > #1: How much flourite per gallon if I wanna use it with gravel? (Tank
> > > is a 55g tall)
> >
> > I used 4 bags of flourite and 2 bags of similar colored gravel, near
> the
> > same size. I'd guess 6 bags for your 55, but I agree with NetMax, 90%
> of
> > people mix it, to make it go farther...
> >
> > > #2: Is there an easy way to remove the Laterite from the current
> > > gravel?
> >
> > Maybe just chunk it... Sorry about the cost... but hold on a minute....
> >
> > > #3: Could it be the amount of water movement/filtration I have? A
> > > friend of mine has never had this problem, and he is the one who
> > > recommended Laterite to me, he uses it without problem.
> >
> > If you have alot, I mean ALOT of movement, then you're really just
> stirring
> > it up yourself... How about running your HOB filter, ONLY.... give it a
> day
> > or so to settle down... See what happens... alot of it IS trial and
> error...
> > It is totally possible you are pushing too much water around and the
> > laterite can't settle down enough, allowing it to become suspended
> inthe
> > water column...
>
> That's a good point. Whenever I use sand as a substrate, I turn off all
> pumps and filters for a couple if days, and let the particulates settle
> to the bottom. This way only the uppermost layer is as volatile to
> return to the water column, and this layer tends to get a bit of a slime
> coat on it, helping keep it down.
>
> Another option is to pour in a flocculent, and use some fine disposable
> floss in your filter for a few days. I think RedForeman ©® is on the
> right track in trying to get your conditions to where the filters can
> keep the water clean. It's worth a few trys before you tear it apart.
>
> NetMax
>
> > > #4: Does anyone else use Laterite without this problem?
> >
> > I've only and always used Flourite... I love the look of laterite, but
> I
> > started to use it in a 10g, and ended up taking it back, it was too
> light,
> > like potting soil... Just didn't like it.. I got black onyx sand
> instead...
> >
> > --
> > RedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike
> > streetfighter!!!
> >
> > ==========================
> > 2003 TRX450ES
> > 1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
> > 1987 TRX250R (sold)
> > 1987 CBR600 Hurricane (sold)
> > 1987 VFR700 Interceptor (sold)
> > 1995 TRX300ex (sold)
> > 2000 CBR600F4 silver/red (sold) *sniff*sniff*
> > '98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
> > ==========================
> > ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø
> > "By US Code Title 47, Sec.227(a)(2)(B), a computer/modem/printer
> > meets the definition of a telephone fax machine. By Sec.227(b)(1)(C),
> > it is unlawful to send any unsolicited advertisement to such equipment.
> > By Sec.227(b)(3)(C), a violation of the aforementioned Section is
> > punishable by action to recover actual monetary loss, or $500,
> > whichever is greater, for each violation."
> >
> > If you do send me unsolicited e-mail I will proof-read it at a rate
> > of $100 per hour (4 hour minimum).
> >
> >
>
>

[Tom Hale]

"Happy'Cam'per" > wrote in message >...
> Netmax, I think you are right, you have to give the new substrate time to
> get covered in biofilm, this will bind things a bit. The OP must just be
> patient.
> --
> **So long, and thanks for all the fish!**

I was patient. The water was clear for 2+ months before it got
cloudy. It sat cloudy for 9 months. I'm trying the whole no light,
no food, no filtration/water movement now to see if that makes a
difference.

T.

[NetMax]

"Tom Hale" > wrote in message
m...
> "Happy'Cam'per" > wrote in message
>...
> > Netmax, I think you are right, you have to give the new substrate
time to
> > get covered in biofilm, this will bind things a bit. The OP must
just be
> > patient.
> > --
> > **So long, and thanks for all the fish!**
>
> I was patient. The water was clear for 2+ months before it got
> cloudy. It sat cloudy for 9 months. I'm trying the whole no light,
> no food, no filtration/water movement now to see if that makes a
> difference.
>
> T.

Don't go no light/food/filtration too long. Light won't make much
difference, unless it was an algae bloom. Food won't make much
difference unless it was a food-driven bacterial imbalance. Turning off
the filter can starve off your good bacteria making the situation worse
(plus an ammonia/nitrite spike). No water movement has possibilities (if
you can move your working filter elsewhere for the duration). On a new
set-up, the filter being off makes no difference because there is no life
in the filter which you are trying to preserve.

Unless r.a.f.p. gave you better advice, I'd try a round of flocculants
(Clear-Water, Accuwater, P-Clear etc).

NetMax

[Chris Oinonen Ehren]

For the record, I use laterite and have no clear water problems. I had some
red/muddy looking water for the first day, but it settled down quickly.
Since then the tank has been chugging along fine. It is heavily planted and
populated, with an ogf and two powerheads (55 gallon) and a population of
maylasian mud snails.

--
Chris

[John Owens]

I had a similar problem with my 55 gallon tank. I used a chemical called
"Algae Fix" it's for planted tanks. It had the water CRYSTAL clear in
about 4 hours. The problem never came back. It wasn't a bacterial bloom
it was some sort of freakish algae bloom.

"Chris Oinonen Ehren" > wrote in message
...
> For the record, I use laterite and have no clear water problems. I had
some
> red/muddy looking water for the first day, but it settled down quickly.
> Since then the tank has been chugging along fine. It is heavily planted
and
> populated, with an ogf and two powerheads (55 gallon) and a population of
> maylasian mud snails.
>
> --
> Chris
>
>