upgrading to 4wpg, how often for trace nutrient fertilzation?

[Dave M. Picklyk]

I'm upgrading from 2.7wpg to 4wpg in the next few days. I want my ludwigias
and rotalas redder and ambulia more bushy...plus I plan on getting some nice
micro sword.

Here are the issues (prefferably if Tom Barr can respond to these :) ):

(15 gallon wide aquarium / 25-30ppm CO2 ) I'm dosing about .6ml of trace
elements (TMG) every morning. I stopped dosing nitrate since levels are a
little high for now (fish getting bigger etc.). Once a week after water
changes I dose 2.5ml of K2SO4 for potassium.

Should I increase the amount of trace elements for the daily doses when I go
to 4wpg? Also should I be dosing K2SO4 twice a week in half portions instead
of one full portion after a 50% water change?

Thanx for your help!! :)

Dave Picklyk.

[[email protected]]

"Dave M. Picklyk" > wrote in message news:<B_yrc.6638$SQ2.1282@edtnps89>...
> I'm upgrading from 2.7wpg to 4wpg in the next few days. I want my ludwigias
> and rotalas redder and ambulia more bushy...plus I plan on getting some nice
> micro sword.
>
> Here are the issues (prefferably if Tom Barr can respond to these :) ):
>
> (15 gallon wide aquarium / 25-30ppm CO2 ) I'm dosing about .6ml of trace
> elements (TMG) every morning. I stopped dosing nitrate since levels are a
> little high for now (fish getting bigger etc.). Once a week after water
> changes I dose 2.5ml of K2SO4 for potassium.
>
> Should I increase the amount of trace elements for the daily doses when I go
> to 4wpg? Also should I be dosing K2SO4 twice a week in half portions instead
> of one full portion after a 50% water change?
>
> Thanx for your help!! :)
>
> Dave Picklyk.

I suggest you look at some of the AGA tanks of year's past, the best
looking Red's I've seen used less, not more light.

More light does not = redder colors.
Good nutrient supply and lower NO3 will. The best way to do that: less
light.
That will give more stability and wiggle room if the NO3 gets too
low(stunted plants) or too high (plants turn greener).
Sure, you can strike a balance at higher light also, but it's more
difficult, not easier.

There is no plant I know of that would need more than 2 to 2.5w/gal to
look nice.

If NO3 is too high etc and you are not adding KNO3 you likely have too
many fish for achieving your goals with plants. Even with higher
light, the plants will remain green. Bushy plants can be achieved
through slower growth and good trimming. No trick, just work.

Red color is more a factor of low N without bottoming out than high
light.
I've had very red plants in non CO2 tanks.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[Dave M. Picklyk]

Hi Tom, thanks for the insight...I never realized that about NO3 and lower
lighting. I have actually traded 3 really huge SAEs for 2 little tiny ones
(put them in my 48 gallon) so that takes out a big portion of the fish.

I have noticed that plants such as the Rotala do get a nice rosy color in
the last few inches closest to the light source. Right now I have a really
poor reflector (tin-foil that always get's crinkled) and I'll be upgrading
that to a mirrored acrylic reflector that I'm custom building to this shape
/¯\/¯\/¯\ . The bulbs right now are situated in an old aquarium lid that
only allowed a few inches of glass viewing area towards the back of the
aquarium...if anything this new design will spread the light more evenly
throughout the aquarium (especially the front).

Dave.

" > wrote in message
om...
> "Dave M. Picklyk" > wrote in message
news:<B_yrc.6638$SQ2.1282@edtnps89>...
> > I'm upgrading from 2.7wpg to 4wpg in the next few days. I want my
ludwigias
> > and rotalas redder and ambulia more bushy...plus I plan on getting some
nice
> > micro sword.
> >
> > Here are the issues (prefferably if Tom Barr can respond to these :) ):
> >
> > (15 gallon wide aquarium / 25-30ppm CO2 ) I'm dosing about .6ml of trace
> > elements (TMG) every morning. I stopped dosing nitrate since levels are
a
> > little high for now (fish getting bigger etc.). Once a week after water
> > changes I dose 2.5ml of K2SO4 for potassium.
> >
> > Should I increase the amount of trace elements for the daily doses when
I go
> > to 4wpg? Also should I be dosing K2SO4 twice a week in half portions
instead
> > of one full portion after a 50% water change?
> >
> > Thanx for your help!! :)
> >
> > Dave Picklyk.
>
> I suggest you look at some of the AGA tanks of year's past, the best
> looking Red's I've seen used less, not more light.
>
> More light does not = redder colors.
> Good nutrient supply and lower NO3 will. The best way to do that: less
> light.
> That will give more stability and wiggle room if the NO3 gets too
> low(stunted plants) or too high (plants turn greener).
> Sure, you can strike a balance at higher light also, but it's more
> difficult, not easier.
>
> There is no plant I know of that would need more than 2 to 2.5w/gal to
> look nice.
>
> If NO3 is too high etc and you are not adding KNO3 you likely have too
> many fish for achieving your goals with plants. Even with higher
> light, the plants will remain green. Bushy plants can be achieved
> through slower growth and good trimming. No trick, just work.
>
> Red color is more a factor of low N without bottoming out than high
> light.
> I've had very red plants in non CO2 tanks.
>
> Regards,
> Tom Barr

[[email protected]]

"Dave M. Picklyk" > wrote in message news:<daUrc.14189$SQ2.6686@edtnps89>...
> Hi Tom, thanks for the insight...I never realized that about NO3 and lower
> lighting. I have actually traded 3 really huge SAEs for 2 little tiny ones
> (put them in my 48 gallon) so that takes out a big portion of the fish.
>
> I have noticed that plants such as the Rotala do get a nice rosy color in
> the last few inches closest to the light source. Right now I have a really
> poor reflector (tin-foil that always get's crinkled) and I'll be upgrading
> that to a mirrored acrylic reflector that I'm custom building to this shape
> /¯\/¯\/¯\ . The bulbs right now are situated in an old aquarium lid that
> only allowed a few inches of glass viewing area towards the back of the
> aquarium...if anything this new design will spread the light more evenly
> throughout the aquarium (especially the front).
>
> Dave.

Red color close to the lights and redder color near tyhe tips=> less
Chlorophyll in the new tissue. As this tissue aged, it turns green.
If the plant breaks the surface, it turns back to green again.
But it has more light..........so is it the light? Or the lack of
NO3?Or the rate of growth?

It's not just the light, don't assume too much about that.
I think people get into a lot of trouble when they assume a cause and
effect relationship means "that's why". The old "correlation does not
imply causation." It might suggest, but it does not prove anything.

The planted(and other aquarium specialities)hobby is full of myths due
to this.

You are wise to have "even" lighting, which is perhaps more important
than how much light/gal you have up to a point.

You can always do a dawn to dusk routine if you have the higher
lighting which will make things easier.
Careful about adding lots of light on the front=> glass algae.

Better to pull the light back and tilt the reflector slighty missing
the glass but hitting the foreground.

You can see the plants redden up if you drive the NO3 down low.
Careful,n ot to stunt the plants though. This plant is pretty
tolerant, Mic umbrosum is not, it'll melt, get holes etc rapidly.

To drive the BNO3 down, add K+, PO4, CO2, Traces etc.
Don't use KNO3 as much or at all till things redden up and then
estimate about 1-2ppm a day of NO3 added. It's hard to say precisely
how much, a lot of other things deterimine NO3 uptake.

But low NO3, Nitrogen stressed plants will redden up, not due to iron
etc or high light, but due to the lack of Chlorophyll pigments which
make the plants green. Chlorophyll has a fair amount of Nitrogen. No
nitrogen, no chlorophyll.

Red color is from anthocyanin. It does not require iron directly nor
Nitrogen. Enzymes(which can be re used many times) involved in their
production use N and Fe but not the products.

It's main use is that of an antiherbivory rather than light
protection. But it certainly might help with high light, but our
lights are far less intense than the sun is and less UV etc.

More light combined with ore nutrients will increase growth rates,
therefore one could argue that's why there's more red, since the plant
has less time to add and assimilate the Chlorophyll enough to make
things green.

Some plants are primarily red also vs color variable species like most
Rotala, Ludwigia sp. Ludwigia and Rotala's are good for looking at the
NO3 effect.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[Dave M. Picklyk]

I see! So by having high NO3 you are supplying the chloroplasts with a lot
nitrogen thus giving more of a green pigment in plants. With higher light
and increased nutrients the plants grow quickly and have much less time to
construct the chlorophyll. Very interesting!!! Thanks for the extremely
informative discussion, I have oft wished that I've taken some further
education in organic chemistry and biology to understand these things
better.

:)

Thanx again!!

Dave.

[Rick]

"Dave M. Picklyk" > wrote in message
news:nXcsc.5528$J02.802@edtnps84...
> I see! So by having high NO3 you are supplying the chloroplasts with a lot
> nitrogen thus giving more of a green pigment in plants. With higher light
> and increased nutrients the plants grow quickly and have much less time to
> construct the chlorophyll. Very interesting!!! Thanks for the extremely
> informative discussion, I have oft wished that I've taken some further
> education in organic chemistry and biology to understand these things
> better.
>
> :)
>
> Thanx again!!
>
> Dave.
>

that is interesting. Tom has been helping me with some dosing information on
the APD list as I have recently upgraded from 4 x 40 Watt T12's to 6 x 32
watt T8's in a new canopy. It made an amazing difference however it has also
brought me some algae issues. I am presently batting BBA (little black or
apparently red tufts) on some of my plants and green algae on the glass. I
have started doing 50% water changes and dosing more KN03 than I was before.
I have ludwigia repens as well as Rotala in my tank. Prior to upgrading my
lights my ludwigia would basically be green like yours until it got near the
light source and then the tops would turn reddish. I have recently removed
most of it and replanted some of the red tops which have now grown almost to
the surface of my 77g tank and noticed that they remained a reddish color
almost from the substrate on up although more red near the surface. This
would seem to indicate that I do need more KN03. I have just started dosing
1/2 tsp 3 x a week so will see if this has any effect.

[[email protected]]

> that is interesting. Tom has been helping me with some dosing information on
> the APD list as I have recently upgraded from 4 x 40 Watt T12's to 6 x 32
> watt T8's in a new canopy. It made an amazing difference however it has also
> brought me some algae issues. I am presently batting BBA (little black or
> apparently red tufts) on some of my plants and green algae on the glass. I
> have started doing 50% water changes and dosing more KN03 than I was before.
> I have ludwigia repens as well as Rotala in my tank. Prior to upgrading my
> lights my ludwigia would basically be green like yours until it got near the
> light source and then the tops would turn reddish. I have recently removed
> most of it and replanted some of the red tops which have now grown almost to
> the surface of my 77g tank and noticed that they remained a reddish color
> almost from the substrate on up although more red near the surface. This
> would seem to indicate that I do need more KN03. I have just started dosing
> 1/2 tsp 3 x a week so will see if this has any effect.

Your issue is two fold, you have less NO3 but your real issues is a
lack of CO2.

When you upped the lighting what else did you need to increase also?
CO2

Carbon is 40+% of the plant's biomass in dry weight, Nitrogen is 1.5%.
If you increase the light and thus the uptake(up to a point)then you
need to first deal with the CO2 before dealing with NO3.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[Graham Broadbridge]

" > wrote in message
m...
>
> Your issue is two fold, you have less NO3 but your real issues is a
> lack of CO2.

Does anyone else out there regret skipping biology in favour of physics? :-)

I'm happily employed in IT at the moment, but I wish I'd spent more time
learning chemistry and biology.

At least we can learn and catch up online.

Graham

[blank]

"Graham Broadbridge" > wrote

> Does anyone else out there regret skipping biology in favour of physics?
:-)
>
> I'm happily employed in IT at the moment, but I wish I'd spent more time
> learning chemistry and biology.
>
> At least we can learn and catch up online.
>
> Graham
>
Yes I agree Graham. I find myself late in life and responsible for an
elaborate avocado cloning project with no substantial knowledge of plant
biology, and no reference person. So the Net is my friend. The info is out
there, as it is for aquaria subjects, but it certainly takes a lot of
perseverance to sort the wheat from the chaff. Thankfully we have ADSL
these days which reduces the pain.

[Rick]

" > wrote in message
m...
> > that is interesting. Tom has been helping me with some dosing
information on
> > the APD list as I have recently upgraded from 4 x 40 Watt T12's to 6 x
32
> > watt T8's in a new canopy. It made an amazing difference however it has
also
> > brought me some algae issues. I am presently batting BBA (little black
or
> > apparently red tufts) on some of my plants and green algae on the glass.
I
> > have started doing 50% water changes and dosing more KN03 than I was
before.
> > I have ludwigia repens as well as Rotala in my tank. Prior to upgrading
my
> > lights my ludwigia would basically be green like yours until it got near
the
> > light source and then the tops would turn reddish. I have recently
removed
> > most of it and replanted some of the red tops which have now grown
almost to
> > the surface of my 77g tank and noticed that they remained a reddish
color
> > almost from the substrate on up although more red near the surface. This
> > would seem to indicate that I do need more KN03. I have just started
dosing
> > 1/2 tsp 3 x a week so will see if this has any effect.
>
> Your issue is two fold, you have less NO3 but your real issues is a
> lack of CO2.
>
> When you upped the lighting what else did you need to increase also?
> CO2
>
> Carbon is 40+% of the plant's biomass in dry weight, Nitrogen is 1.5%.
> If you increase the light and thus the uptake(up to a point)then you
> need to first deal with the CO2 before dealing with NO3.
>
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


CO2 is kept at 30+ PPM at all times. My Ph varies little during the day,
with the biggest swing about 6.5 just before lights on to 6.8 at lights out.
I try to keep it in the 6.6 to 6.7 range. I was not quite correct in saying
that my repens is reddish all the way up. On looking at it today it is in
fact green about half way where it starts to turn colour.

Rick

[[email protected]]

"Graham Broadbridge" > wrote in message >...
> " > wrote in message
> m...
> >
> > Your issue is two fold, you have less NO3 but your real issues is a
> > lack of CO2.
>
> Does anyone else out there regret skipping biology in favour of physics? :-)
>
> I'm happily employed in IT at the moment, but I wish I'd spent more time
> learning chemistry and biology.
>
> At least we can learn and catch up online.
>
> Graham


There's a steep learning curve initially but the end result for most
hobbyist is tranquilty.
See last year's newbie winner from the AGA's aquascaping contest:
http://www.aquatic-gardeners.org/

I wanted to be an Astrophysicist, then an engineer and went down both
roads for awhile, later I switched to Aquatic Bio, so I have both.
Blackholes to blackouts:)
Blackouts fortunately require fewer solar masses:-)

Regards,
Tom Barr