Re: Holy New Super Pond from Heaven Questions.

[Anne Lurie]

Based on responses from other posters, I guess I may be alone in thinking
that Scooby is describing an *indoor* water feature -- if so, wind would
presumably not factor into things, but what happens if there is a disruption
in your water source? I have visions of the house burning down when all
those pumps get overheated!

Just my $.02 worth,

Anne Lurie
Raleigh, NC


"Little Scooby" > wrote in message
om...
> I am a pond newbie trying to create my first super pond. It is a very
> small pond using a preformed liner (Jamaica)
> http://www.maccourt.com/lp7818.html.
>
> I know, I know. It's teensy (100 gallon pond) but I will probably
> quadruple the size in about 2 years or so if things go as planned.
>
> The main purpose of this super mini-pond is to try to create a work of
> art using water effects. I already have a 55 gallon fish aquarium
> (stocked with black mollies - balloon and lyretail) in the house, so
> this super pond project will not have any fish in it. Once again, it
> will be a pond designed for water effects only (and of course the
> tranquil sound effects that come with it).
>
> I don't know how many users in this forum have fountain effects on
> their ponds but I'm looking at foam jet fountains (similar to this
> one:
>
http://www.pondarama.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=Sky&
Category_Code=NOZ&Product_Count=0
>
> Actually, that was a joke. That one would be cost prohibitive of
> course (plus it's a geyser, not a foam jet).
>
> Here is the real one I want (or one similar):
>
http://www.pondarama.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=CalF
K9&Category_Code=PFN&Product_Count=18
>
> I think they are kinda neat (they kinda look like freshly opened
> champagne bottles spraying up a few feet or so).
>
> Anyway, most of the foam jet fountains I have read about on the
> internet top out at about 30 inches in height or so using over 1000
> gph pumps.
>
> Has anyone successfully made these fountains higher? I've seen some
> really professional ones that cost over $200 each but I'm not looking
> to spend that much per fountain. My goal is to try to squeeze 3 foam
> jet fountains in this tiny 5x4 foot pond (18 inches deep in the
> center, 9 or 10 inches around the sides). I was thinking of maybe
> having each fountain at a different height (or just have all 3 at the
> same height like you sometimes see at Banks, Parks, etc.). I would use
> a separate pump for each fountain.
>
> I don't even know if it will be possible or not. Is there a certain
> depth required to use these foam jets at certain heights? I don't know
> how hard the water comes down from them. Could it wreck the bottom of
> the preformed liner?
>
> Also. If a 1000 GPH @ 1 foot pump could get to 30 inches on one of
> these fountains, about how high would a 3000 or 4000 pump get? I'm
> looking to set some sort of record here because I'm guessing most pond
> enthusiasts aren't as interested in water effects as I am but I
> thought I'd ask anyway.
>
> Any answers you might have will be most appreciated. Thanks.
>
> One last one. Are there any side effects to having too much
> circulation? If I ran 3 4000 GPH pumps in a tiny 100 gallon pond, will
> I end up traveling backwards in time or cause damage to the space/time
> continuum? Would the pumps hurt each other at those speeds? They would
> be close to each other as well (within 1 foot of each other).
>
> Thanks again. (sorry for the super long post).
>
> -Little Scooby

[Little Scooby]

"Hank Pagel" > wrote in message >...
> Sounds interesting ..................... but ................. the
> first wind that comes along will empty your 100 gallon pond in
> seconds. You will find that the higher you go the more effect wind or
> even algae growing on the nozzle will have on where the water comes
> down. Trying to keep it in a pond that small will be the problem, also
> how much of that hundred gallons will be displaced by your pumps or be
> in the air at the same time. Even small globe fountains can empty a
> small pond in the wind.(voice of experience with the globe)
> Good luck, but I think it is back to the drawing board for this
> one.
>

Good point. I definately haven't thought of that. Is the wind really
that powerful that it can blow a huge, heavy stream of water by an
entire foot or more? If so, would this piece of art work on calm days
under close supervision (i.e. whenever I am out in the yard doing
yardwork, entertaining guests on a calm day with no wind, etc.)? or
would a tiny little gust of wind throw it all out of the pond?

I guess what I'm asking is how many miles per hour does the wind have
to be blowing in order for it to be strong enough to blow the jet foam
streams of water over a foot or two of distance which would be out of
the pond?

I'm not sure about how many gallons of water would be in the air at
any given time either. I would have to calculate that somehow but I
don't know how. It's starting to sound like I might have to limit
myself to only 1 or 2 of the foam jet fountains in a little 5x4 foot
pond, even then though, the wind may become my worst enemy until I can
build a bigger pond.

What if I just had 1 foam jet in the center of the pond? Would that
work on a windy day? If not, what is the smallest pond I could
purchase that could handle the wind problem? If I went with only 1
jet, the wind could blow the foam jet stream 2 feet in 2 directions
and 2.5 feet in the other two directions before the water would leave
the pond I guess, which leads me to my last question. Say a big 35
mile per hour gust of wind comes by. About how far does it normally
blow a 3 or 4 foot high foam jet stream? 2 feet? 4 feet? 6? Anyone
ever measure? I'm hoping my project isn't going to become a
catastrophe because of this wind issue (Damn Mother Nature!).

-Little Scooby

[John Rutz]

Little Scooby wrote:
> "Hank Pagel" > wrote in message >...
>
>
>>
>
>
> Good point. I definately haven't thought of that. Is the wind really
> that powerful that it can blow a huge, heavy stream of water by an
> entire foot or more? If so, would this piece of art work on calm days
> under close supervision (i.e. whenever I am out in the yard doing
> yardwork, entertaining guests on a calm day with no wind, etc.)? or
> would a tiny little gust of wind throw it all out of the pond?
>
>

when wind gets 10 mph it starts drifting the water colums on my TT's to
where most of the water falls to the side so thats about 18 -24 inches
here we get 20-30 mph winds quite often those push the taller column
(the 2ft one) 10-12 ft to the side

mind you I am out in the open no buildings around at all in a city i
think it wouldnt happen too often


John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

never miss a good oportunity to shut up

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

[Hank Pagel]

Pardon the pun, but I think we have a pipe dream here.
Simple math ..... three 3000gph pumps ...... less than 100 gal. of
water .... that's one complete turnover every 30 seconds.
Simple hydraulics ..... Too much turbulence. Pumps would cavitate.
Water could not return to the pumps fast enough.
Have you ever watered your lawn or washed your car on a windy day? You
get as wet as the car.
Like the song says "Don't tug on superman's cape or spit into the
wind!"
Try using a garden hose to simulate the effect you want. I think you
will find it much less than 3000gph. (IMO)
Time your garden hose into a 5 gal. bucket ......... See how far you
get in 30 sec.

"Little Scooby" > wrote in message
om...
> "Anne Lurie" > wrote in message
>...
> > Based on responses from other posters, I guess I may be alone in
thinking
> > that Scooby is describing an *indoor* water feature -- if so,
wind would
> > presumably not factor into things, but what happens if there is a
disruption
> > in your water source? I have visions of the house burning down
when all
> > those pumps get overheated!
> >
> > Just my $.02 worth,
> >
> > Anne Lurie
> > Raleigh, NC
> >
>
> Unfortunately, it is in my nature to defy the odds so I have to make
> this an outdoor feature versus an indoor one, somehow there must be
a
> way (perhaps upgrading to a slightly bigger pond immediately if
needed
> (but only as big as needed to adjust for the wind blowing which is
why
> I need to find out about how far the wind would blow the jet streams
> (perhaps if I also trim the height of the jet streams down to lower
> levels).
>
> I'm curious though, if this were to be an indoor pond, what do you
> mean by disruption in my water source?
>
> Do you mean if I left the feature unattended for weeks and all the
> water evaporated or something? Or if the preformed liner cracked and
> all the water leaked out?
>
> A feature like this would require daily attention and I never go on
> vacations and if I did, I would unplug the pumps first. I'm
confused.
> How would the pumps possibly burn out because I would never let the
> water level get to even a slightly dangerous low level (I have a 55
> gallon aquarium that I fill with water every couple of days just
> because I don't like to see the water level dip more than an inch in
> the aquarium.
>
> Plus, don't these pumps have safety mechanisms built in that would
> prevent them from starting on fire? Especially the nice Cal-pumps,
> etc? I would only use a top of the line but resonably priced pump.
> Although, even if they didn't start on fire, smoke damage could be
> just as bad so I would hope they would just shut off after so many
> minutes of no water in them (or is this totally off base?). I've
never
> let a pump run dry on any of my indoor fountains (tabletop versions)
> so I don't know what would happen to them, let alone a 3000 or 4000
> GPH pump.
>
> -Little Scooby

[zookeeper]

Little Scooby wrote:

> ... Is the wind really
> that powerful that it can blow a huge, heavy stream of water by an
> entire foot or more?

In reading your questions and the responses, I would suggest solving the
wind problem first. Check with local weather stations / forecasters /
online to determine range of wind speeds. Limit wind variables by
screening, walls, location, location, location, of your water feature.
Limit wind variables by using fountain only when supervised. Connect
water feature to wind sensor to shut off if wind speed exceeds a
specific point. Then design your water feature with whatever pump /
basin / amount of water will work for your area / location. Sounds like
a fun project -- keep us posted.
--
Kathy B, zookeeper
3500gal pond, 13 pond piggies
Oregon, Zone 6

[Little Sccoby]

"John Rutz" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Little Scooby wrote:
> > "Hank Pagel" > wrote in message
>...
> >

> when wind gets 10 mph it starts drifting the water colums on my TT's to
> where most of the water falls to the side so thats about 18 -24 inches
> here we get 20-30 mph winds quite often those push the taller column
> (the 2ft one) 10-12 ft to the side
>
> mind you I am out in the open no buildings around at all in a city i
> think it wouldnt happen too often
>
>
> John Rutz
> Z5 New Mexico
>
> never miss a good oportunity to shut up
>
> see my pond at:
>
> http://www.fuerjefe.com
>


Thanks. That gives me something to start with. What a difference an extra 15
MPH wind gust makes!
And that's only a 2 foot column? I'm hoping for 3 to 5 foot lighter foam
jets. Hmm. Hope that high wind sensor shutoff unit has a quick response
time.

http://www.smarthome.com/7196.html

Thanks for the info. I can't wait to start experimenting. I live in a rural
area with high winds so a unit similar to the one above will be a necessity
for this to work.

-Little Scooby

[Little Sccoby]

If the response time of a unit similar to this one is quick enough, wind
will not be a problem for this project:

http://www.smarthome.com/7196.html



"Hank Pagel" > wrote in message
...
> Sounds interesting ..................... but ................. the
> first wind that comes along will empty your 100 gallon pond in
> seconds. You will find that the higher you go the more effect wind or
> even algae growing on the nozzle will have on where the water comes
> down. Trying to keep it in a pond that small will be the problem, also
> how much of that hundred gallons will be displaced by your pumps or be
> in the air at the same time. Even small globe fountains can empty a
> small pond in the wind.(voice of experience with the globe)
> Good luck, but I think it is back to the drawing board for this
> one.
> "Little Scooby" > wrote in message
> om...
> > I am a pond newbie trying to create my first super pond. It is a
> very
> > small pond using a preformed liner (Jamaica)
> > http://www.maccourt.com/lp7818.html.
> >
> > I know, I know. It's teensy (100 gallon pond) but I will probably
> > quadruple the size in about 2 years or so if things go as planned.
> >
> > The main purpose of this super mini-pond is to try to create a work
> of
> > art using water effects. I already have a 55 gallon fish aquarium
> > (stocked with black mollies - balloon and lyretail) in the house, so
> > this super pond project will not have any fish in it. Once again, it
> > will be a pond designed for water effects only (and of course the
> > tranquil sound effects that come with it).
> >
> > I don't know how many users in this forum have fountain effects on
> > their ponds but I'm looking at foam jet fountains (similar to this
> > one:
> >
>
http://www.pondarama.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=Sky&
Category_Code=NOZ&Product_Count=0
> >
> > Actually, that was a joke. That one would be cost prohibitive of
> > course (plus it's a geyser, not a foam jet).
> >
> > Here is the real one I want (or one similar):
> >
>
http://www.pondarama.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=CalF
K9&Category_Code=PFN&Product_Count=18
> >
> > I think they are kinda neat (they kinda look like freshly opened
> > champagne bottles spraying up a few feet or so).
> >
> > Anyway, most of the foam jet fountains I have read about on the
> > internet top out at about 30 inches in height or so using over 1000
> > gph pumps.
> >
> > Has anyone successfully made these fountains higher? I've seen some
> > really professional ones that cost over $200 each but I'm not
> looking
> > to spend that much per fountain. My goal is to try to squeeze 3 foam
> > jet fountains in this tiny 5x4 foot pond (18 inches deep in the
> > center, 9 or 10 inches around the sides). I was thinking of maybe
> > having each fountain at a different height (or just have all 3 at
> the
> > same height like you sometimes see at Banks, Parks, etc.). I would
> use
> > a separate pump for each fountain.
> >
> > I don't even know if it will be possible or not. Is there a certain
> > depth required to use these foam jets at certain heights? I don't
> know
> > how hard the water comes down from them. Could it wreck the bottom
> of
> > the preformed liner?
> >
> > Also. If a 1000 GPH @ 1 foot pump could get to 30 inches on one of
> > these fountains, about how high would a 3000 or 4000 pump get? I'm
> > looking to set some sort of record here because I'm guessing most
> pond
> > enthusiasts aren't as interested in water effects as I am but I
> > thought I'd ask anyway.
> >
> > Any answers you might have will be most appreciated. Thanks.
> >
> > One last one. Are there any side effects to having too much
> > circulation? If I ran 3 4000 GPH pumps in a tiny 100 gallon pond,
> will
> > I end up traveling backwards in time or cause damage to the
> space/time
> > continuum? Would the pumps hurt each other at those speeds? They
> would
> > be close to each other as well (within 1 foot of each other).
> >
> > Thanks again. (sorry for the super long post).
> >
> > -Little Scooby
>
>

[Hank Pagel]

Don't get me wrong? I like the idea. Especially at night with the
right lighting, but (here I go being negative again) IMO I think that
the surface area of that pond is too small and that 100 gal. is not
enough water to achieve the effect you are looking for. The water
needs a larger surface area to return or you will end up with a
high-tech very costly lawn sprinkler.
I really am interested in how this turns out, but, but, but, but,
but, (Just my nature I guess)

"Buckaroo" > wrote in message
...
> No pipe dream here. I think this piece of artwork is achievable with
the
> right equipment/circumstances - run only on supervised calmer days,
winds
> less than 5-10 MPH, high wind detection auto shutoff sensor unit
(cheap
> probably under $100), slower pumps (under 1000 GPH), etc. It's just
a matter
> of tweaking each variable to the perfect notch. It's like fine
tuning your
> home network or tweaking your cars computer module with a superchip
upgrade
> for maximum performance.
> http://www.kap.uk.com/superchips.htm#superchip%201 (sorry for the
lame UK
> link).
>
> Anyway, I was kinda thinking that three 3000 GPH pumps would not get
along
> together in such a small area (hence the reference to the space
> time/continuum in my previous post).
>
> I guess my questions need to be separated a bit.
> Out of curiousities sake, I was wondering how high a 3000 or 4000
GPH pump
> could make a foam jet. John R said he's gotten his standard
fountains to be
> over 2 feet high with a 2400 GPH pump. The thing is that I'm
thinking his
> fountains are more of the solid water stream type whereas the foam
jets are
> fused with air bubbles so the streams should theoretically be
lighter since
> they are part water and part oxygen not just all heavy water.
>
> So, let's say I went down to three 1000 GPH pumps. The specs for the
foam
> jets say that with a 1000 GPH pump, you can expect the height of the
foam
> jet to be 30 inches. That's pretty close to 3 feet. The circulation
would be
> at an acceptable level with only 1000 GPH pumps, and yes, the pond
would
> possibly start to resemble a whirlpool of sorts but that doesn't
matter
> since nothing living will be in it and the main goal is the 3 high
spouting
> foam jet fountains. Avoiding the wind sounds like the biggest
obstacle, but
> it sounds like this little gem:
>
> http://www.smarthome.com/7196.html
>
> (or a competing product like it -hopefully smaller, maybe painted
black or
> green to blend in with the surrounding environment- would do the
trick) and
> it only costs $69.
>
> I dunno. I think it might just be possible, but yes, it would be one
touchy
> son of a bitch water display with the patience of a madman to make
it all
> work perfectly.
> What are your thoughts about it working with 1000 GPH pumps instead
of
> 3000's?
>
> Do-able or still impossible?
>
> -Little Scooby
>
>
> "Hank Pagel" > wrote in message
> .. .
> > Pardon the pun, but I think we have a pipe dream here.
> > Simple math ..... three 3000gph pumps ...... less than 100 gal. of
> > water .... that's one complete turnover every 30 seconds.
> > Simple hydraulics ..... Too much turbulence. Pumps would cavitate.
> > Water could not return to the pumps fast enough.
> > Have you ever watered your lawn or washed your car on a windy day?
You
> > get as wet as the car.
> > Like the song says "Don't tug on superman's cape or spit into
the
> > wind!"
> > Try using a garden hose to simulate the effect you want. I think
you
> > will find it much less than 3000gph. (IMO)
> > Time your garden hose into a 5 gal. bucket ......... See how far
you
> > get in 30 sec.
> >
> > "Little Scooby" > wrote in message
> > om...
> > > "Anne Lurie" > wrote in message
> > >...
> > > > Based on responses from other posters, I guess I may be alone
in
> > thinking
> > > > that Scooby is describing an *indoor* water feature -- if
so,
> > wind would
> > > > presumably not factor into things, but what happens if there
is a
> > disruption
> > > > in your water source? I have visions of the house burning
down
> > when all
> > > > those pumps get overheated!
> > > >
> > > > Just my $.02 worth,
> > > >
> > > > Anne Lurie
> > > > Raleigh, NC
> > > >
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, it is in my nature to defy the odds so I have to
make
> > > this an outdoor feature versus an indoor one, somehow there must
be
> > a
> > > way (perhaps upgrading to a slightly bigger pond immediately if
> > needed
> > > (but only as big as needed to adjust for the wind blowing which
is
> > why
> > > I need to find out about how far the wind would blow the jet
streams
> > > (perhaps if I also trim the height of the jet streams down to
lower
> > > levels).
> > >
> > > I'm curious though, if this were to be an indoor pond, what do
you
> > > mean by disruption in my water source?
> > >
> > > Do you mean if I left the feature unattended for weeks and all
the
> > > water evaporated or something? Or if the preformed liner cracked
and
> > > all the water leaked out?
> > >
> > > A feature like this would require daily attention and I never go
on
> > > vacations and if I did, I would unplug the pumps first. I'm
> > confused.
> > > How would the pumps possibly burn out because I would never let
the
> > > water level get to even a slightly dangerous low level (I have a
55
> > > gallon aquarium that I fill with water every couple of days just
> > > because I don't like to see the water level dip more than an
inch in
> > > the aquarium.
> > >
> > > Plus, don't these pumps have safety mechanisms built in that
would
> > > prevent them from starting on fire? Especially the nice
Cal-pumps,
> > > etc? I would only use a top of the line but resonably priced
pump.
> > > Although, even if they didn't start on fire, smoke damage could
be
> > > just as bad so I would hope they would just shut off after so
many
> > > minutes of no water in them (or is this totally off base?). I've
> > never
> > > let a pump run dry on any of my indoor fountains (tabletop
versions)
> > > so I don't know what would happen to them, let alone a 3000 or
4000
> > > GPH pump.
> > >
> > > -Little Scooby
> >
> >
>
>

[Little Sccoby]

I'm thinking it is going to be very very close to very very very very close
if it works. I always have the option to upgrade the pond size as the final
tweak but I want to save that option as the last resort option.

If it works and looks good under the right conditions in such a tiny pond,
it will definately make me want to upgrade the size of the pond sooner than
later but after digging 100 gallons of hard clay and dirt all last weekend
with a Garden Claw and a shovel by myself when it was 90 degrees outside, I
don't want to touch another shovel for a while (didn't seem right to rent a
small Bobcat or excavator device for what at the time seemed like a puny 100
gallons) and I haven't looked into how much it would cost to hire someone to
dig out another 100 to 200 gallons of earth (if anyone knows the cost,
please tell me), plus, I want to see if I can defy the odds by getting it
not only to fit in the tiny pond I have selected, but to have it look really
nice as well. Plus, this particular pond has the perfect shape for the area
I have selected in the yard (considering there aren't very many good designs
for preformed ponds - in my opinion).

I don't want it to look overcrowded either though, but since I have mastered
the art of making small rooms inside the house look huge, I should be able
to mask the fact that this pond is tiny and still have it all look perfect.

When you mention that the surface area of the pond is too small, what
exactly do you mean? Do you mean that with slight winds, the jets would blow
the water the couple feet out of the pond or that the jets require a larger
surface to land the water safely under calm to zero wind conditions?

The reason I ask is because besides the looks, the other reason I'm going
with the foam jets is because they have very small diameters when they come
down (compared to other fountains like the 3 tier sprinkles, etc.) The
diameter of space the jets need is very very small.

I'll just have to wait and see how it turns out I guess. Who knows. In 1
week I could be digging again, but I hope not...

-Little Scooby


"Hank Pagel" > wrote in message
.. .
> Don't get me wrong? I like the idea. Especially at night with the
> right lighting, but (here I go being negative again) IMO I think that
> the surface area of that pond is too small and that 100 gal. is not
> enough water to achieve the effect you are looking for. The water
> needs a larger surface area to return or you will end up with a
> high-tech very costly lawn sprinkler.
> I really am interested in how this turns out, but, but, but, but,
> but, (Just my nature I guess)
>
> "Buckaroo" > wrote in message
> ...
> > No pipe dream here. I think this piece of artwork is achievable with
> the
> > right equipment/circumstances - run only on supervised calmer days,
> winds
> > less than 5-10 MPH, high wind detection auto shutoff sensor unit
> (cheap
> > probably under $100), slower pumps (under 1000 GPH), etc. It's just
> a matter
> > of tweaking each variable to the perfect notch. It's like fine
> tuning your
> > home network or tweaking your cars computer module with a superchip
> upgrade
> > for maximum performance.
> > http://www.kap.uk.com/superchips.htm#superchip%201 (sorry for the
> lame UK
> > link).
> >
> > Anyway, I was kinda thinking that three 3000 GPH pumps would not get
> along
> > together in such a small area (hence the reference to the space
> > time/continuum in my previous post).
> >
> > I guess my questions need to be separated a bit.
> > Out of curiousities sake, I was wondering how high a 3000 or 4000
> GPH pump
> > could make a foam jet. John R said he's gotten his standard
> fountains to be
> > over 2 feet high with a 2400 GPH pump. The thing is that I'm
> thinking his
> > fountains are more of the solid water stream type whereas the foam
> jets are
> > fused with air bubbles so the streams should theoretically be
> lighter since
> > they are part water and part oxygen not just all heavy water.
> >
> > So, let's say I went down to three 1000 GPH pumps. The specs for the
> foam
> > jets say that with a 1000 GPH pump, you can expect the height of the
> foam
> > jet to be 30 inches. That's pretty close to 3 feet. The circulation
> would be
> > at an acceptable level with only 1000 GPH pumps, and yes, the pond
> would
> > possibly start to resemble a whirlpool of sorts but that doesn't
> matter
> > since nothing living will be in it and the main goal is the 3 high
> spouting
> > foam jet fountains. Avoiding the wind sounds like the biggest
> obstacle, but
> > it sounds like this little gem:
> >
> > http://www.smarthome.com/7196.html
> >
> > (or a competing product like it -hopefully smaller, maybe painted
> black or
> > green to blend in with the surrounding environment- would do the
> trick) and
> > it only costs $69.
> >
> > I dunno. I think it might just be possible, but yes, it would be one
> touchy
> > son of a bitch water display with the patience of a madman to make
> it all
> > work perfectly.
> > What are your thoughts about it working with 1000 GPH pumps instead
> of
> > 3000's?
> >
> > Do-able or still impossible?
> >
> > -Little Scooby
> >
> >
> > "Hank Pagel" > wrote in message
> > .. .
> > > Pardon the pun, but I think we have a pipe dream here.
> > > Simple math ..... three 3000gph pumps ...... less than 100 gal. of
> > > water .... that's one complete turnover every 30 seconds.
> > > Simple hydraulics ..... Too much turbulence. Pumps would cavitate.
> > > Water could not return to the pumps fast enough.
> > > Have you ever watered your lawn or washed your car on a windy day?
> You
> > > get as wet as the car.
> > > Like the song says "Don't tug on superman's cape or spit into
> the
> > > wind!"
> > > Try using a garden hose to simulate the effect you want. I think
> you
> > > will find it much less than 3000gph. (IMO)
> > > Time your garden hose into a 5 gal. bucket ......... See how far
> you
> > > get in 30 sec.
> > >
> > > "Little Scooby" > wrote in message
> > > om...
> > > > "Anne Lurie" > wrote in message
> > > >...
> > > > > Based on responses from other posters, I guess I may be alone
> in
> > > thinking
> > > > > that Scooby is describing an *indoor* water feature -- if
> so,
> > > wind would
> > > > > presumably not factor into things, but what happens if there
> is a
> > > disruption
> > > > > in your water source? I have visions of the house burning
> down
> > > when all
> > > > > those pumps get overheated!
> > > > >
> > > > > Just my $.02 worth,
> > > > >
> > > > > Anne Lurie
> > > > > Raleigh, NC
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Unfortunately, it is in my nature to defy the odds so I have to
> make
> > > > this an outdoor feature versus an indoor one, somehow there must
> be
> > > a
> > > > way (perhaps upgrading to a slightly bigger pond immediately if
> > > needed
> > > > (but only as big as needed to adjust for the wind blowing which
> is
> > > why
> > > > I need to find out about how far the wind would blow the jet
> streams
> > > > (perhaps if I also trim the height of the jet streams down to
> lower
> > > > levels).
> > > >
> > > > I'm curious though, if this were to be an indoor pond, what do
> you
> > > > mean by disruption in my water source?
> > > >
> > > > Do you mean if I left the feature unattended for weeks and all
> the
> > > > water evaporated or something? Or if the preformed liner cracked
> and
> > > > all the water leaked out?
> > > >
> > > > A feature like this would require daily attention and I never go
> on
> > > > vacations and if I did, I would unplug the pumps first. I'm
> > > confused.
> > > > How would the pumps possibly burn out because I would never let
> the
> > > > water level get to even a slightly dangerous low level (I have a
> 55
> > > > gallon aquarium that I fill with water every couple of days just
> > > > because I don't like to see the water level dip more than an
> inch in
> > > > the aquarium.
> > > >
> > > > Plus, don't these pumps have safety mechanisms built in that
> would
> > > > prevent them from starting on fire? Especially the nice
> Cal-pumps,
> > > > etc? I would only use a top of the line but resonably priced
> pump.
> > > > Although, even if they didn't start on fire, smoke damage could
> be
> > > > just as bad so I would hope they would just shut off after so
> many
> > > > minutes of no water in them (or is this totally off base?). I've
> > > never
> > > > let a pump run dry on any of my indoor fountains (tabletop
> versions)
> > > > so I don't know what would happen to them, let alone a 3000 or
> 4000
> > > > GPH pump.
> > > >
> > > > -Little Scooby
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

I say, "Go for it." When you figure it all out, let us know worked, and
pictures please. ~ jan

>On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 19:54:25 -0500, "Little Sccoby" > wrote:

>I'm thinking it is going to be very very close to very very very very close
>if it works. I always have the option to upgrade the pond size as the final
>tweak but I want to save that option as the last resort option.
>snip<
>I'll just have to wait and see how it turns out I guess. Who knows. In 1
>week I could be digging again, but I hope not...
>
>-Little Scooby


See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

[Susan H. Simko]

Little Scooby wrote:

> If it works and looks good under the right conditions in such a tiny pond,
> it will definately make me want to upgrade the size of the pond sooner than
> later but after digging 100 gallons of hard clay and dirt all last weekend
> with a Garden Claw and a shovel by myself when it was 90 degrees outside, I
> don't want to touch another shovel for a while (didn't seem right to rent a
> small Bobcat or excavator device for what at the time seemed like a puny 100
> gallons) and I haven't looked into how much it would cost to hire someone to
> dig out another 100 to 200 gallons of earth (if anyone knows the cost,
> please tell me), plus, I want to see if I can defy the odds by getting it
> not only to fit in the tiny pond I have selected, but to have it look really
> nice as well. Plus, this particular pond has the perfect shape for the area
> I have selected in the yard (considering there aren't very many good designs
> for preformed ponds - in my opinion).

I live in a clay area. Try wetting the ground really well and then
letting it sit and soak in for a while before digging. It's heavier
this way but a lot easier to dig.

Susan
shsimko at duke dot edu

[BenignVanilla]

"Susan H. Simko" > wrote in message
...
> Little Scooby wrote:
>
> > If it works and looks good under the right conditions in such a tiny
pond,
> > it will definately make me want to upgrade the size of the pond sooner
than
> > later but after digging 100 gallons of hard clay and dirt all last
weekend
> > with a Garden Claw and a shovel by myself when it was 90 degrees
outside, I
> > don't want to touch another shovel for a while (didn't seem right to
rent a
> > small Bobcat or excavator device for what at the time seemed like a puny
100
> > gallons) and I haven't looked into how much it would cost to hire
someone to
> > dig out another 100 to 200 gallons of earth (if anyone knows the cost,
> > please tell me), plus, I want to see if I can defy the odds by getting
it
> > not only to fit in the tiny pond I have selected, but to have it look
really
> > nice as well. Plus, this particular pond has the perfect shape for the
area
> > I have selected in the yard (considering there aren't very many good
designs
> > for preformed ponds - in my opinion).
>
> I live in a clay area. Try wetting the ground really well and then
> letting it sit and soak in for a while before digging. It's heavier
> this way but a lot easier to dig.

The ground I live on is a form of clay known in the scientific community as
"Groundis as hardis cementis". I found the best way to dig for me, was to
use a pick axe or hand pick, and just hack a trench as wide as the tool. Let
the tool do the work. Then I would use a shovel to chip off the sides of the
trench, letting it fall into the trench. I'd then scoop out the loose pieces
of concrete...I mean clay. Lather, rinse repeat. Just keep expanding the
trench. Work in layers, getting wider each time.

Damn...ya know...I was going to take pictures of this when I discovered how
well the technique worked, but figured I would get laughed at.

BV.

[John Hines]

"Susan H. Simko" > wrote:

>Why? *grin* I got a pic of the s.o.'s stepdad with the jackhammer. I
>really wanted to have a go at using it but was assured that if I wanted
>to be able to do anything else for the rest of the week that I ought to
>give it a pass. Picking up the 70 pound jackhammer wasn't the issue,
>controlling it while it was on was.

From years of watching construction workers, I'd venture a guess that
you don't have a beer belly that overhangs the hammer, which seems to be
a requirement for proper operation.

[Little Sccoby]

Holy ****balls. Creating a pond is a lot of work. I thought of another
device I could use though. Besides a wind detector like this one:

http://www.smarthome.com/7196.html

I could also use a water level safety shutoff device. Anyone ever use any
before? It would just have to be able to turn off a normal AC switch when
the water level reaches a low level in the pond. That way, even if the water
does blow out of the pond during high winds, the pumps would be
automatically shut off so they don't get burned out.

-Little Scooby


"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
> I say, "Go for it." When you figure it all out, let us know worked, and
> pictures please. ~ jan
>
> >On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 19:54:25 -0500, "Little Sccoby"
> wrote:
>
> >I'm thinking it is going to be very very close to very very very very
close
> >if it works. I always have the option to upgrade the pond size as the
final
> >tweak but I want to save that option as the last resort option.
> >snip<
> >I'll just have to wait and see how it turns out I guess. Who knows. In 1
> >week I could be digging again, but I hope not...
> >
> >-Little Scooby
>
>
> See my ponds and filter design:
> http://users.owt.com/jjspond/
>
> ~Keep 'em Wet!~
> Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
> To e-mail see website

[Little Sccoby]

What about trenching electrical? Anything to it that I need to know? I'm
guessing I should just trench a thicker guage extension cord to the pond
(about 20 to 30 foot cord), that way when I want to upgrade or replace old
pumps, I don't have to dig out the pump/light cord(s), which I was surprised
to find is not detachable from most of the pumps I have looked at.

My goal is to have 2 or 3 pumps plus lights attached to an extension cord
that goes to the outside house electrical jack which has a ground fault
interupter. I feel like I'm missing something though. What should I use to
waterproof the area where the pumps connect to the extension cord? Just wrap
them in plastic and seal with duct tape or something? Seems like there
should be a better way.

-Little Scooby


"Susan H. Simko" > wrote in message
...
> Little Scooby wrote:
>
> > If it works and looks good under the right conditions in such a tiny
pond,
> > it will definately make me want to upgrade the size of the pond sooner
than
> > later but after digging 100 gallons of hard clay and dirt all last
weekend
> > with a Garden Claw and a shovel by myself when it was 90 degrees
outside, I
> > don't want to touch another shovel for a while (didn't seem right to
rent a
> > small Bobcat or excavator device for what at the time seemed like a puny
100
> > gallons) and I haven't looked into how much it would cost to hire
someone to
> > dig out another 100 to 200 gallons of earth (if anyone knows the cost,
> > please tell me), plus, I want to see if I can defy the odds by getting
it
> > not only to fit in the tiny pond I have selected, but to have it look
really
> > nice as well. Plus, this particular pond has the perfect shape for the
area
> > I have selected in the yard (considering there aren't very many good
designs
> > for preformed ponds - in my opinion).
>
> I live in a clay area. Try wetting the ground really well and then
> letting it sit and soak in for a while before digging. It's heavier
> this way but a lot easier to dig.
>
> Susan
> shsimko at duke dot edu
>

[Nedra]

There is a much better way.... call an electrician! I can
see you are a quick fixer ;-) ... not good to hook up your pond
with nothing but extension cords. And Please
don't wrap the cords with plastic. It holds in heat and could
easily cause a fire. If you must use extenesion cords buy
some dielectric grease from an auto parts store. Smear that
all over the ends. It is water proof.

I would like to see you post that you've thought about it ..
and your going to hire an electrician.

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"Hank Pagel" > wrote in message
.. .
> always do wiring to code and use GFCI.
> "Little Sccoby" > wrote in message
> ...
> > What about trenching electrical? Anything to it that I need to know?
> I'm
> > guessing I should just trench a thicker guage extension cord to the
> pond
> > (about 20 to 30 foot cord), that way when I want to upgrade or
> replace old
> > pumps, I don't have to dig out the pump/light cord(s), which I was
> surprised
> > to find is not detachable from most of the pumps I have looked at.
> >
> > My goal is to have 2 or 3 pumps plus lights attached to an extension
> cord
> > that goes to the outside house electrical jack which has a ground
> fault
> > interupter. I feel like I'm missing something though. What should I
> use to
> > waterproof the area where the pumps connect to the extension cord?
> Just wrap
> > them in plastic and seal with duct tape or something? Seems like
> there
> > should be a better way.
> >
> > -Little Scooby
> >
> >
> > "Susan H. Simko" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Little Scooby wrote:
> > >
> > > > If it works and looks good under the right conditions in such a
> tiny
> > pond,
> > > > it will definately make me want to upgrade the size of the pond
> sooner
> > than
> > > > later but after digging 100 gallons of hard clay and dirt all
> last
> > weekend
> > > > with a Garden Claw and a shovel by myself when it was 90 degrees
> > outside, I
> > > > don't want to touch another shovel for a while (didn't seem
> right to
> > rent a
> > > > small Bobcat or excavator device for what at the time seemed
> like a puny
> > 100
> > > > gallons) and I haven't looked into how much it would cost to
> hire
> > someone to
> > > > dig out another 100 to 200 gallons of earth (if anyone knows the
> cost,
> > > > please tell me), plus, I want to see if I can defy the odds by
> getting
> > it
> > > > not only to fit in the tiny pond I have selected, but to have it
> look
> > really
> > > > nice as well. Plus, this particular pond has the perfect shape
> for the
> > area
> > > > I have selected in the yard (considering there aren't very many
> good
> > designs
> > > > for preformed ponds - in my opinion).
> > >
> > > I live in a clay area. Try wetting the ground really well and
> then
> > > letting it sit and soak in for a while before digging. It's
> heavier
> > > this way but a lot easier to dig.
> > >
> > > Susan
> > > shsimko at duke dot edu
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

[Nedra]

I think I would call in an electrician who does this sort of
outdoor application to at least get an estimate.
They will let you know what you can
and perhaps should not do. I have no idea on fees.... they
are pretty much dictated by the union ... (I think??)

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"Little Sccoby" > wrote in message
...
> Actually, after reading a bunch of articles about installing ground fault
> interupters, I'm more confused than before so it looks like I will have to
> consult an electrician. I kinda thought there might be more to it than
just
> trenching a thick extension cord (or other high grade electrical cord) to
a
> GFCI recepticle so I am glad I asked. I never thought about the heat
> generated from plastic wrapped around the cords (especially since they
would
> be buried underground). Good point.
>
> What type of fee could I expect to be charged? Also, do the electricians
> trench the electrical wire to the pond or is that something they would let
> us do (or a landscaper if needed)?
>
> Thanks again for all the help. I hope everything turns out.
>
> -Little Scooby
>
>
> "Nedra" > wrote in message
> link.net...
> > There is a much better way.... call an electrician! I can
> > see you are a quick fixer ;-) ... not good to hook up your pond
> > with nothing but extension cords. And Please
> > don't wrap the cords with plastic. It holds in heat and could
> > easily cause a fire. If you must use extenesion cords buy
> > some dielectric grease from an auto parts store. Smear that
> > all over the ends. It is water proof.
> >
> > I would like to see you post that you've thought about it ..
> > and your going to hire an electrician.
> >
> > Nedra
> > http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
> > http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118
> >
> > "Hank Pagel" > wrote in message
> > .. .
> > > always do wiring to code and use GFCI.
> > > "Little Sccoby" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > What about trenching electrical? Anything to it that I need to know?
> > > I'm
> > > > guessing I should just trench a thicker guage extension cord to the
> > > pond
> > > > (about 20 to 30 foot cord), that way when I want to upgrade or
> > > replace old
> > > > pumps, I don't have to dig out the pump/light cord(s), which I was
> > > surprised
> > > > to find is not detachable from most of the pumps I have looked at.
> > > >
> > > > My goal is to have 2 or 3 pumps plus lights attached to an extension
> > > cord
> > > > that goes to the outside house electrical jack which has a ground
> > > fault
> > > > interupter. I feel like I'm missing something though. What should I
> > > use to
> > > > waterproof the area where the pumps connect to the extension cord?
> > > Just wrap
> > > > them in plastic and seal with duct tape or something? Seems like
> > > there
> > > > should be a better way.
> > > >
> > > > -Little Scooby
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Susan H. Simko" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > > Little Scooby wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > If it works and looks good under the right conditions in such a
> > > tiny
> > > > pond,
> > > > > > it will definately make me want to upgrade the size of the pond
> > > sooner
> > > > than
> > > > > > later but after digging 100 gallons of hard clay and dirt all
> > > last
> > > > weekend
> > > > > > with a Garden Claw and a shovel by myself when it was 90 degrees
> > > > outside, I
> > > > > > don't want to touch another shovel for a while (didn't seem
> > > right to
> > > > rent a
> > > > > > small Bobcat or excavator device for what at the time seemed
> > > like a puny
> > > > 100
> > > > > > gallons) and I haven't looked into how much it would cost to
> > > hire
> > > > someone to
> > > > > > dig out another 100 to 200 gallons of earth (if anyone knows the
> > > cost,
> > > > > > please tell me), plus, I want to see if I can defy the odds by
> > > getting
> > > > it
> > > > > > not only to fit in the tiny pond I have selected, but to have it
> > > look
> > > > really
> > > > > > nice as well. Plus, this particular pond has the perfect shape
> > > for the
> > > > area
> > > > > > I have selected in the yard (considering there aren't very many
> > > good
> > > > designs
> > > > > > for preformed ponds - in my opinion).
> > > > >
> > > > > I live in a clay area. Try wetting the ground really well and
> > > then
> > > > > letting it sit and soak in for a while before digging. It's
> > > heavier
> > > > > this way but a lot easier to dig.
> > > > >
> > > > > Susan
> > > > > shsimko at duke dot edu
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>

[Little Sccoby]

$400 just for the electrical help? That seems rather high. I only have to
trench about 20 to 30 feet. I watched a neighbor trench his cable line in
about an hour and it didn't seem that involved. Did you have a lot of other
electrical done at the same time or something?

"K30a" > wrote in message
...
> L.Scooby wrote >>> What type of fee could I expect to be charged ?<<
(running
> electricity out to the pond).
>
> We dug the trench ourselves with the help of a college linebacker...
> Everything came out to be about $400,
> that's here in the Pacific NorthWest.
>
>
>
>
> k30a

[Little Sccoby]

Speaking of shut-off devices based on water levels, do the pumps that have
shutoff capabilities work very well? Or is it always better to use a
separate shut-off device and not rely on the pumps with built in shut-off
capabilities (especially when running multiple pumps in an array)? I guess
what I mean is this: By the time the low water level activates the shut-off
mechanism on the pump, is the pump already slightly (even very slightly)
damaged in any way or is it just a normal proven method for shutting off a
pump that has no side-effects whatsoever (or shorten lifespan of pump in any
way)? (I keep hearing horror stories of people who let their pumps run dry).

The reason I ask is because my pond will be teensy with wind blowing the
fountains spray out of the pond on a constant basis (unless or even if I use
a wind detection shut-off device with this setup) and the water level could
reach shut-off levels on a daily or at least weekly basis (grass should be
okay because it's all down hill or in a rocky area with good drainage).

Is it kinda like with a PC? You could use an average powerstrip for your PC,
or you could do the right thing and use a UPS that not only protects against
electrical spikes but also has a battery backup to prevent your PC from
shutting down hard in case the electricity goes out.

I'm all for redundancy, but to a point. I would not run any PC without a UPS
so I'm guessing I shouldn't just rely on the built in shutoff mechanisms
built into certain pumps, but, as I'm slowly finding out, ponds and all the
electrical devices that go with them (pumps, underwater lights, wind/water
level shutoff devices, etc), are very far from the PC realm.

Hopefully this week I should have some pictures of this crazy super pond
project from heaven (I can hardly wait to hear the laughter of my attempts
to get 3 pumps with fountain jets in this small 4x5 foot pond), but I must
complete the project, even though it is going much slower than I had
originally anticipated and has cost me a few extra dollars than I had
accounted for. Hopefully it will be worth it in the long run.

Once again, thanks for all the help. It has been not only fun but amusing as
well.

-Little Scooby


"Little Sccoby" > wrote in message
...
>
> Holy ****balls. Creating a pond is a lot of work. I thought of another
> device I could use though. Besides a wind detector like this one:
>
> http://www.smarthome.com/7196.html
>
> I could also use a water level safety shutoff device. Anyone ever use any
> before? It would just have to be able to turn off a normal AC switch when
> the water level reaches a low level in the pond. That way, even if the
water
> does blow out of the pond during high winds, the pumps would be
> automatically shut off so they don't get burned out.
>
> -Little Scooby
>
>
> "~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I say, "Go for it." When you figure it all out, let us know worked, and
> > pictures please. ~ jan
> >
> > >On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 19:54:25 -0500, "Little Sccoby"
> > wrote:
> >
> > >I'm thinking it is going to be very very close to very very very very
> close
> > >if it works. I always have the option to upgrade the pond size as the
> final
> > >tweak but I want to save that option as the last resort option.
> > >snip<
> > >I'll just have to wait and see how it turns out I guess. Who knows. In
1
> > >week I could be digging again, but I hope not...
> > >
> > >-Little Scooby
> >
> >
> > See my ponds and filter design:
> > http://users.owt.com/jjspond/
> >
> > ~Keep 'em Wet!~
> > Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
> > To e-mail see website
>
>

[*muffin*]

hmm I wouldn't know.

I'm sure It adds to their ????? you pay them.

but I don't think he wants to do digging!!! if 'I were an electrician I'd
only want to do the hookups.



"Little Sccoby" > wrote in message
...
> I will probably call them before the weekend. Just kind of feeling the
> waters out so I'm not too floored and know what to expect when I talk to
> them.
>
> Do they normally like to run all the underground wire themselves?
>
> -Little Scooby
>

[John Hines]

"Little Sccoby" > wrote:



>Do they normally like to run all the underground wire themselves?

Almost assuredly. You may be able to save by doing the digging
yourself. A pro may have a vibratory plow, which can put the cable in
with out digging.

The GFCI should go at the house part, so that this way, your protected
if the cable is hit or breached, it will trip.

There is special cable that is rated for burial underground, to handle
both the heat, and soil exposure, moisture, and bugs.

You may also want to put in a post or something else to attach the
remote box to, if you want something other than a plain pipe, like a
wood post.

[John Rutz]

Nedra wrote:
> There is a much better way.... call an electrician! I can
> see you are a quick fixer ;-) ... not good to hook up your pond
> with nothing but extension cords. And Please
> don't wrap the cords with plastic. It holds in heat and could
> easily cause a fire. If you must use extenesion cords buy
> some dielectric grease from an auto parts store. Smear that
> all over the ends. It is water proof.
>
> I would like to see you post that you've thought about it ..
> and your going to hire an electrician.
>
> Nedra
>
Nedra is right use an electrician and do it to code
my 1cents worth if you bury the extension cord and somehow a fire
startss your insuranc may not pay somtheing to consider
I have seen that happen when I was a firefighter




John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

never miss a good oportunity to shut up

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

[John Rutz]

Little Sccoby wrote:
> Actually, after reading a bunch of articles about installing ground fault
> interupters, I'm more confused than before so it looks like I will have to
> consult an electrician. I kinda thought there might be more to it than just
> trenching a thick extension cord (or other high grade electrical cord) to a
> GFCI recepticle so I am glad I asked. I never thought about the heat
> generated from plastic wrapped around the cords (especially since they would
> be buried underground). Good point.
>
> What type of fee could I expect to be charged? Also, do the electricians
> trench the electrical wire to the pond or is that something they would let
> us do (or a landscaper if needed)?
>
> Thanks again for all the help. I hope everything turns out.
>
> -Little Scooby
>
>the electician should do the trench too underground feeds are quite common nowadays

John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

never miss a good oportunity to shut up

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

[K30a]

scooby wrote >> $400 just for the electrical help?<<

Not just the help. The conduit, the wiring, the post, the box, the burying,
contacting city, the permit, the inspection.
It is all what your market charges.
My husband is an electrical engineer and wanted someone who knows city codes,
etc. (He can build you a safe nuclear reactor but he relys on electricans for
work on our home.)

The reason why I suggest this is you sounded a little wonky on the whole
electrical business. Don't want to fool around with electricity if you don't
have a clear understanding of it. With as many children, now teenagers, around
our yard we felt that safety was our highest concern and cost wasn't an issue
when you consider the consequences. I was the before and after-school care mom
on our block so we're talking a lot of kids ;-)


k30a

[RichToyBox]

The pumps that I have seen with auto shutoff devices are all sump pumps.
They have the switch to turn them on automatically when the water in the
sump comes up to a point, and cut off when it goes back down. Those pumps
are not rated for continuous operation, and most of them are real energy
hogs. You can buy the parts for a switch, a piece of threaded rod, a few
nuts and a toilet bowl float.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html


"Little Sccoby" > wrote in message
...
> Speaking of shut-off devices based on water levels, do the pumps that have
> shutoff capabilities work very well? Or is it always better to use a
> separate shut-off device and not rely on the pumps with built in shut-off
> capabilities (especially when running multiple pumps in an array)? I guess
> what I mean is this: By the time the low water level activates the
shut-off
> mechanism on the pump, is the pump already slightly (even very slightly)
> damaged in any way or is it just a normal proven method for shutting off a
> pump that has no side-effects whatsoever (or shorten lifespan of pump in
any
> way)? (I keep hearing horror stories of people who let their pumps run
dry).
>
> The reason I ask is because my pond will be teensy with wind blowing the
> fountains spray out of the pond on a constant basis (unless or even if I
use
> a wind detection shut-off device with this setup) and the water level
could
> reach shut-off levels on a daily or at least weekly basis (grass should be
> okay because it's all down hill or in a rocky area with good drainage).
>
> Is it kinda like with a PC? You could use an average powerstrip for your
PC,
> or you could do the right thing and use a UPS that not only protects
against
> electrical spikes but also has a battery backup to prevent your PC from
> shutting down hard in case the electricity goes out.
>
> I'm all for redundancy, but to a point. I would not run any PC without a
UPS
> so I'm guessing I shouldn't just rely on the built in shutoff mechanisms
> built into certain pumps, but, as I'm slowly finding out, ponds and all
the
> electrical devices that go with them (pumps, underwater lights, wind/water
> level shutoff devices, etc), are very far from the PC realm.
>
> Hopefully this week I should have some pictures of this crazy super pond
> project from heaven (I can hardly wait to hear the laughter of my attempts
> to get 3 pumps with fountain jets in this small 4x5 foot pond), but I must
> complete the project, even though it is going much slower than I had
> originally anticipated and has cost me a few extra dollars than I had
> accounted for. Hopefully it will be worth it in the long run.
>
> Once again, thanks for all the help. It has been not only fun but amusing
as
> well.
>
> -Little Scooby
>
>
> "Little Sccoby" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Holy ****balls. Creating a pond is a lot of work. I thought of another
> > device I could use though. Besides a wind detector like this one:
> >
> > http://www.smarthome.com/7196.html
> >
> > I could also use a water level safety shutoff device. Anyone ever use
any
> > before? It would just have to be able to turn off a normal AC switch
when
> > the water level reaches a low level in the pond. That way, even if the
> water
> > does blow out of the pond during high winds, the pumps would be
> > automatically shut off so they don't get burned out.
> >
> > -Little Scooby
> >
> >
> > "~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > I say, "Go for it." When you figure it all out, let us know worked,
and
> > > pictures please. ~ jan
> > >
> > > >On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 19:54:25 -0500, "Little Sccoby"
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >I'm thinking it is going to be very very close to very very very very
> > close
> > > >if it works. I always have the option to upgrade the pond size as the
> > final
> > > >tweak but I want to save that option as the last resort option.
> > > >snip<
> > > >I'll just have to wait and see how it turns out I guess. Who knows.
In
> 1
> > > >week I could be digging again, but I hope not...
> > > >
> > > >-Little Scooby
> > >
> > >
> > > See my ponds and filter design:
> > > http://users.owt.com/jjspond/
> > >
> > > ~Keep 'em Wet!~
> > > Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
> > > To e-mail see website
> >
> >
>
>

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

I have both systems. One on the pump built-in is probably best for you, so
you don't have the large bobber in the water.... though as an artist you
could probably disguise it to look like a boat or glue some fake silk
aquarium plants to it. One on the pump will let your water go lower, the
bobber can be set so it turns off at a point you prefer. Either way, both
work. I got my mercury float switch from www.aquaticeco.com ~ jan

>On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 00:07:54 -0500, "Little Sccoby" > wrote:

>Speaking of shut-off devices based on water levels, do the pumps that have
>shutoff capabilities work very well? Or is it always better to use a
>separate shut-off device and not rely on the pumps with built in shut-off
>capabilities (especially when running multiple pumps in an array)? I guess
>what I mean is this: By the time the low water level activates the shut-off
>mechanism on the pump, is the pump already slightly (even very slightly)
>damaged in any way or is it just a normal proven method for shutting off a
>pump that has no side-effects whatsoever (or shorten lifespan of pump in any
>way)? (I keep hearing horror stories of people who let their pumps run dry).



See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website