Koi Meds

[GACinMass]

I've read several books on koi diseases, parasites, etc. All of them emphasize
the importance of sending scrapings/samples to a lab or having a microscope in
order to properly identify the culprit and determine the appropriate course of
treatment.

OK, time for a reality check: First, the only way I have ever been able to net
a koi in my pond is to nearly drain it. This stresses the fish so much that I
will not do it again. In fact, the last time I did this, for a full year
afterward they would run & hide when they saw anyone at the pond's edge. So I
will not be able to get a scraping or sample of any kind.

Second, I do not have a microscope or a lab nearby so I'm forced to guess what
the affliction is and what treatment to start.

I tend to start with Potassium Permanganate, treating the entire 220 gal pond.
If I don't see improvement, I try Formalin. If that doesn't work I try
Limnozyme. I know this is a wasteful "shotgun" approach but it has worked
somewhat. Last year I lost 2 koi to some kind of ulcer/fungus thing before I
was able to get it under control.

Here's my question: If you can only guess at what the ailment is, how would you
treat it? What meds in what order? Is PP the best place to start? My fish
have just been through a spawning episode and several are now showing whitish
bumps on their fins. One has skinned his nose pretty seriously. I started the
PP yesterday and have my fingers crossed. Any advice would be much
appreciated.

~ Gary
Zone 6b

[[email protected]]

1. creating a pond for fish
2. water quality
3. watching behavior
4. signs of disease

1. a pond for fish is deep with no shelves so predators are discouraged. the pond
is netting to keep leaves, predators and birds out. there is excellent filtration
and aeration. and the design is simple so no dead spots where water doesnt move.
2. pristine water conditions are essential.
keep rotting plants out of the pond, the kind that sink to the bottom.
keep snails and other denizens out of the fish pond, they carry diseases.
keep birds and bird **** out of the pond. net the pond. dont let birds bath in
areas that drain into the pond. bird **** is loaded with disease. salt to 0.1%
stimulates the slime coat and prevents disease.
quarantine all new fish and plants for 1-2 months. in fact, dont add new fish at all
to existing ponds. a closed system is healthier.
change water routinely ... I think Steve (Jo Ann's husband) replaces 500 gallons out
of the 6000 gallon pond once a week. clean the filters once a week.
feed high quality foods. feed sparingly.
dont stir up much in the pond.
always check water parameters after rain storms. pH can drop in soft water ponds.
3. behavior. often fish show behavioral changes even before signs of disease. see
behavior http://users.megapathdsl.net/~solo/puregold/disease/disease.htm if ANY of
the fish arent acting right start by checking water quality. all of them, ammonia,
nitrites, nitrates and pH and hardness. then do a water change and bring the salt up
to 0.1%. check for rotting organics in the pond.
4. disease starts with a poor slime coat either caused by stress, toxic water,
spawning or other mechanical damage, or parasites getting in and under.
strengthening the slime coat, getting it to turn over prevents most diseases.
however, if the slime coat is thick, AND there doesnt seem to be any water quality
problems, then using a STOCK solution of PP every other day for 3 treatments. change
some water every day. use a bit of peroxide to clear the pond after treatment. PP
should not be used at very high temps or in very high pH/alkaline water.
treat for parasites first, bacteria second. if there are definite problems like
ulcers, feed romet B for 10 days to prevent spread of the infection.
Use formalin/malachite green if there are symptoms of ich. dont use in cold water.
dont use in water over 75o if there is more than 0.1% salt either.

last summer I had 2 fish die. there wasnt a mark on them anywhere. slime coat was
great. on necropsy I found infected eggs with the kind of bacteria carried by birds.
that was when I netted my veggie filter in addition to the pond itself. It is very
important to do a necropsy on dead fish to try to determine what the problem was.
after this I fed romet B and didnt lose any more fish, not that I would have
necessarily anyway. Ingrid



(GACinMass) wrote:
>Here's my question: If you can only guess at what the ailment is, how would you
>treat it? What meds in what order? Is PP the best place to start? My fish
>have just been through a spawning episode and several are now showing whitish
>bumps on their fins. One has skinned his nose pretty seriously. I started the
>PP yesterday and have my fingers crossed. Any advice would be much
>appreciated.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[RichToyBox]

Two parts to your question, I think. First your fish have just spawned.
This will cause them to knock off scales, and get all kinds of nicks and
bruises. For this I would start with KoiZyme to prevent infection. Also,
spawning creates a lot of ammonia and nitrites. Run the tests to see if you
need to add AmQuel for the ammonia, or salt for the nitrites. The better
the water the healthier the fish.

Second, shotgun medicine. 1) unless you take the fish to the lab, the
scrapings are worthless, since the parasites will die fairly quickly, and
the easiest way to see them is if they are moving. 2) unless you can do
above or have a microscope, you are left with the shotgun. That is where I
was until this year. I use KoiZyme year round to try to prevent infection.
I have had to give injections to too many fish. If I suspect parasites, I
prefer to start treatments with salt, to 0.3%. It is effective against most
of the parasites, not dangerous to you or the fish. Second to salt, I like
PP, because it takes care of everything else. It is more dangerous, and
dosage sensitive than the salt. Personally, I don't like the formalin
treatments because like PP it is consumed by organic debris, and unlike PP,
you can't see the color change to know that it is spent, so you don't know
if you have used enough, and it doesn't take much too much to kill fish.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html


"GACinMass" > wrote in message
...
> I've read several books on koi diseases, parasites, etc. All of them
emphasize
> the importance of sending scrapings/samples to a lab or having a
microscope in
> order to properly identify the culprit and determine the appropriate
course of
> treatment.
>
> OK, time for a reality check: First, the only way I have ever been able to
net
> a koi in my pond is to nearly drain it. This stresses the fish so much
that I
> will not do it again. In fact, the last time I did this, for a full year
> afterward they would run & hide when they saw anyone at the pond's edge.
So I
> will not be able to get a scraping or sample of any kind.
>
> Second, I do not have a microscope or a lab nearby so I'm forced to guess
what
> the affliction is and what treatment to start.
>
> I tend to start with Potassium Permanganate, treating the entire 220 gal
pond.
> If I don't see improvement, I try Formalin. If that doesn't work I try
> Limnozyme. I know this is a wasteful "shotgun" approach but it has worked
> somewhat. Last year I lost 2 koi to some kind of ulcer/fungus thing
before I
> was able to get it under control.
>
> Here's my question: If you can only guess at what the ailment is, how
would you
> treat it? What meds in what order? Is PP the best place to start? My
fish
> have just been through a spawning episode and several are now showing
whitish
> bumps on their fins. One has skinned his nose pretty seriously. I started
the
> PP yesterday and have my fingers crossed. Any advice would be much
> appreciated.
>
> ~ Gary
> Zone 6b
>
>

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

But Nedra, he didn't ask if his pond was too small in his questions. ;o)

Gary, You've gotten some good advice, but I'll give my 2 cents.

Many Koi Clubs around the country now have trained KHAs (Koi Health
Advisors) they will come to your home, microscope in hand and help, free!
So you might want to check your area on the AKCA.org website and find your
closest club and if they have trained KHAs.

I don't follow the *I can't catch them* story. I get IN my 6'X13' pond full
of plants and herd my fish into a big black 24" diameter plastic planter
pot. Then I bag them from there. So get a big tub and herd them, don't try
to net them.

My drugs of choice for shot-gunning are those that won't destroy the
filter. Lymnozyme, or Koizyme (I guess they're calling it now). Romet B
feed or other medicated feeds. Salt. For flukes, malathion. Dimalin for
anchor worm or lice, neither it or malathion ruin the bio-filter.

I just went thru a malathion treatment in both ponds and sick tank, last
one today. Sick tank is salted over 0.3% and I'm treating the fish in there
with a product called Tricide-Neo. Fish was scraped before treatment and
only one fluke showed up. I don't think flukes though caused the initial
damage, I think it was injury and not getting my filter, salt & lymnozyme
either up to snuff or in the pond early enough because I was adjusting to
going back to work this spring when one should be keeping a close eye on
pond things. The jury is out on whether I'll save this fish or not. My main
goal is the experience of doing in (I took the KHA class), but there's no
experience like doing it! So I am. Would be nice if the fish survives me,
and my treatment, but I've seen better looking dead carp on the beach.<s>
~ jan


See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

1st and foremost check your water quality. I've reposted the sick fish/sick
pond form, fill it out. ~ jan


>On 15 Jul 2003 13:50:20 GMT, (GACinMass) wrote:

>I've read several books on koi diseases, parasites, etc. All of them emphasize
>the importance of sending scrapings/samples to a lab or having a microscope in
>order to properly identify the culprit and determine the appropriate course of
>treatment.
>
>OK, time for a reality check: First, the only way I have ever been able to net
>a koi in my pond is to nearly drain it. This stresses the fish so much that I
>will not do it again. In fact, the last time I did this, for a full year
>afterward they would run & hide when they saw anyone at the pond's edge. So I
>will not be able to get a scraping or sample of any kind.
>
>Second, I do not have a microscope or a lab nearby so I'm forced to guess what
>the affliction is and what treatment to start.
>
>I tend to start with Potassium Permanganate, treating the entire 220 gal pond.
>If I don't see improvement, I try Formalin. If that doesn't work I try
>Limnozyme. I know this is a wasteful "shotgun" approach but it has worked
>somewhat. Last year I lost 2 koi to some kind of ulcer/fungus thing before I
>was able to get it under control.
>
>Here's my question: If you can only guess at what the ailment is, how would you
>treat it? What meds in what order? Is PP the best place to start? My fish
>have just been through a spawning episode and several are now showing whitish
>bumps on their fins. One has skinned his nose pretty seriously. I started the
>PP yesterday and have my fingers crossed. Any advice would be much
>appreciated.
>
>~ Gary
> Zone 6b
>

[Nedra]

Since when do we ask if 220 gallons is too small for Koi?
That would appear to be a given. Any problems would stem
from that fact.

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
> But Nedra, he didn't ask if his pond was too small in his questions. ;o)
>
> Gary, You've gotten some good advice, but I'll give my 2 cents.
>
> Many Koi Clubs around the country now have trained KHAs (Koi Health
> Advisors) they will come to your home, microscope in hand and help, free!
> So you might want to check your area on the AKCA.org website and find your
> closest club and if they have trained KHAs.
>
> I don't follow the *I can't catch them* story. I get IN my 6'X13' pond
full
> of plants and herd my fish into a big black 24" diameter plastic planter
> pot. Then I bag them from there. So get a big tub and herd them, don't try
> to net them.
>
> My drugs of choice for shot-gunning are those that won't destroy the
> filter. Lymnozyme, or Koizyme (I guess they're calling it now). Romet B
> feed or other medicated feeds. Salt. For flukes, malathion. Dimalin for
> anchor worm or lice, neither it or malathion ruin the bio-filter.
>
> I just went thru a malathion treatment in both ponds and sick tank, last
> one today. Sick tank is salted over 0.3% and I'm treating the fish in
there
> with a product called Tricide-Neo. Fish was scraped before treatment and
> only one fluke showed up. I don't think flukes though caused the initial
> damage, I think it was injury and not getting my filter, salt & lymnozyme
> either up to snuff or in the pond early enough because I was adjusting to
> going back to work this spring when one should be keeping a close eye on
> pond things. The jury is out on whether I'll save this fish or not. My
main
> goal is the experience of doing in (I took the KHA class), but there's no
> experience like doing it! So I am. Would be nice if the fish survives me,
> and my treatment, but I've seen better looking dead carp on the beach.<s>
> ~ jan
>
>
> See my ponds and filter design:
> http://users.owt.com/jjspond/
>
> ~Keep 'em Wet!~
> Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
> To e-mail see website
>
> 1st and foremost check your water quality. I've reposted the sick
fish/sick
> pond form, fill it out. ~ jan
>
>
> >On 15 Jul 2003 13:50:20 GMT, (GACinMass) wrote:
>
> >I've read several books on koi diseases, parasites, etc. All of them
emphasize
> >the importance of sending scrapings/samples to a lab or having a
microscope in
> >order to properly identify the culprit and determine the appropriate
course of
> >treatment.
> >
> >OK, time for a reality check: First, the only way I have ever been able
to net
> >a koi in my pond is to nearly drain it. This stresses the fish so much
that I
> >will not do it again. In fact, the last time I did this, for a full year
> >afterward they would run & hide when they saw anyone at the pond's edge.
So I
> >will not be able to get a scraping or sample of any kind.
> >
> >Second, I do not have a microscope or a lab nearby so I'm forced to guess
what
> >the affliction is and what treatment to start.
> >
> >I tend to start with Potassium Permanganate, treating the entire 220 gal
pond.
> >If I don't see improvement, I try Formalin. If that doesn't work I try
> >Limnozyme. I know this is a wasteful "shotgun" approach but it has worked
> >somewhat. Last year I lost 2 koi to some kind of ulcer/fungus thing
before I
> >was able to get it under control.
> >
> >Here's my question: If you can only guess at what the ailment is, how
would you
> >treat it? What meds in what order? Is PP the best place to start? My
fish
> >have just been through a spawning episode and several are now showing
whitish
> >bumps on their fins. One has skinned his nose pretty seriously. I
started the
> >PP yesterday and have my fingers crossed. Any advice would be much
> >appreciated.
> >
> >~ Gary
> > Zone 6b
> >
>
>

[BenignVanilla]

"Nedra" > wrote in message
link.net...
> Since when do we ask if 220 gallons is too small for Koi?
> That would appear to be a given. Any problems would stem
> from that fact.
<snip>

Nedra...I agree that a small body of water is typically bad for an overstock
of fish, but in theory with proper filtration, 220 could support his fish,
right?

BV.

[Nedra]

LOL! Oh My my my .... okay I guess if his filtration is
top notch, etc etc ....

But, BV ... this just shoots in the bu**
our (rec.ponds) most recent theory that we need 1,000
gallons of water for the first Koi and 100 gallons for
every Koi after that. I don't remember seeing any conditions
tagged onto that theory ....

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"BenignVanilla" > wrote in message
...
> "Nedra" > wrote in message
> link.net...
> > Since when do we ask if 220 gallons is too small for Koi?
> > That would appear to be a given. Any problems would stem
> > from that fact.
> <snip>
>
> Nedra...I agree that a small body of water is typically bad for an
overstock
> of fish, but in theory with proper filtration, 220 could support his fish,
> right?
>
> BV.
>
>
>

[BenignVanilla]

"Nedra" > wrote in message
link.net...
> LOL! Oh My my my .... okay I guess if his filtration is
> top notch, etc etc ....
>
> But, BV ... this just shoots in the bu**
> our (rec.ponds) most recent theory that we need 1,000
> gallons of water for the first Koi and 100 gallons for
> every Koi after that. I don't remember seeing any conditions
> tagged onto that theory ....
<snip>

True, true, an don't get me wrong. I am not about to toss 3 or 4 Koi in my
bathtub. I just wanted to make the point that the "rules" we all talk about
here, are based on laws of averages. Sorry, I am kind of anal about stuff
like this. I don't like rules that say, "Do this..." just because. Reminds
me of a story...

One Easter my Dad was cooking a ham and he cut it in half before placing it
in the oven. I inquired as to why he did this. He responded, "I dunno,
that's the way my mother did it." So I asked my grandmother about cutting
the ham in half, and she said, "That's how my mother taught me to do it.
I've always done it that way." I then asked my great-grandmother about the
recipe and she told me, "Cut it in half? Oh, that's because I don't have a
pan big enough for the whole ham."

So you see why I question salt too? *laugh*

BV.

[Lee Brouillet]

Regarding an answer to your question for a shotgun treatment . . .

when you know something is wrong, but you don't know what

you know your water parameters are good, so your problem is not there

you don't have a 'scope, so you can't define the suspected parasite

The "latest and greatest" shotgun method is a combination of Prazi and
ProForm-C. Prazi is a treatment for flukes, and also acts as an internal
wormer for koi and goldfish. It will not harm either, and is pretty close to
a one-step treatment. It will not kill your filter, either. ProForm-C is a
formalin-based med that will "nuke" just about everything else, but can be
used in colder water than normal formalin based meds (so you can get an
earlier start coming out of winter). It's also filter-friendly.

These two meds can be mixed together for a one-shot treatment. In fact, it's
preferred: Prazi can be "a bit of a trial", shall we say, to dissolve . . .
but mixes right up with the ProForm-C.

Caveat: NO SALT can be in the pond. Salt levels MUST be below .05 Formalin
and salt are not compatible. That's an arguable statement, but better safe
than sorry.

Now, if you have a bacterial problem (fin rot, ulcers, BGD), TriCide Neo is
the "latest and greatest" for that. However, it requires that you catch the
fish and treat according to directions. You CAN treat the pond, but it's
wasteful. KoiZyme (formerly Lymnozyme) is a "preventative", not a medicine.
It should be used weekly, not as a "cure".

Prazi: http://tinyurl.com/bk8i
ProForm-C: http://tinyurl.com/h3tx
Tricide Neo: http://tinyurl.com/e6fd

I hope this helps.

Lee


"GACinMass" > wrote in message
...
> I've read several books on koi diseases, parasites, etc. All of them
emphasize
> the importance of sending scrapings/samples to a lab or having a
microscope in
> order to properly identify the culprit and determine the appropriate
course of
> treatment.
>
> OK, time for a reality check: First, the only way I have ever been able to
net
> a koi in my pond is to nearly drain it. This stresses the fish so much
that I
> will not do it again. In fact, the last time I did this, for a full year
> afterward they would run & hide when they saw anyone at the pond's edge.
So I
> will not be able to get a scraping or sample of any kind.
>
> Second, I do not have a microscope or a lab nearby so I'm forced to guess
what
> the affliction is and what treatment to start.
>
> I tend to start with Potassium Permanganate, treating the entire 220 gal
pond.
> If I don't see improvement, I try Formalin. If that doesn't work I try
> Limnozyme. I know this is a wasteful "shotgun" approach but it has worked
> somewhat. Last year I lost 2 koi to some kind of ulcer/fungus thing
before I
> was able to get it under control.
>
> Here's my question: If you can only guess at what the ailment is, how
would you
> treat it? What meds in what order? Is PP the best place to start? My
fish
> have just been through a spawning episode and several are now showing
whitish
> bumps on their fins. One has skinned his nose pretty seriously. I started
the
> PP yesterday and have my fingers crossed. Any advice would be much
> appreciated.
>
> ~ Gary
> Zone 6b
>
>

[John Hines]

"BenignVanilla" > wrote:

>"Nedra" > wrote in message
link.net...
>> Since when do we ask if 220 gallons is too small for Koi?
>> That would appear to be a given. Any problems would stem
>> from that fact.
><snip>
>
>Nedra...I agree that a small body of water is typically bad for an overstock
>of fish, but in theory with proper filtration, 220 could support his fish,
>right?

Are they going to have room when they grow? Unlike some other fish, koi
keep growing even if there isn't room for them.

220 gals isn't any bigger than a show tank for koi.

[GACinMass]

>How many koi do you have in 220 gal.????????

Sorry, I meant 2200 gallons. I've got to start proofreading my posts!

~ Gary

[Nedra]

PHEW!!!! That is one BIG relief.... Thanks Gary.

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"GACinMass" > wrote in message
...
> >How many koi do you have in 220 gal.????????
>
> Sorry, I meant 2200 gallons. I've got to start proofreading my posts!
>
> ~ Gary
>

[John Rutz]

Nedra wrote:
> LOL! Oh My my my .... okay I guess if his filtration is
> top notch, etc etc ....
>
> But, BV ... this just shoots in the bu**
> our (rec.ponds) most recent theory that we need 1,000
> gallons of water for the first Koi and 100 gallons for
> every Koi after that. I don't remember seeing any conditions
> tagged onto that theory ....
>
> Nedra
> http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
> http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118
>

if my poor oldtimers memory is working this morning I seem to remember
that that formula is because the Koi need at least that much space to be
healthy and comfortable, and to properly grow.

I know i pushed the envelope quite badly and built gonzo filters to
handle the load,, water stayed in normal chemical limits but I ended up
with a bunch of miniature Koi


John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

never miss a good oportunity to shut up

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

[*muffin*]

there probably are a lot of uninformed newbies who think they can fit big
koi in that space.
I would think informing them politely of their mistakes will help future
PORGS

muffin> . everyone was a newbie once



"Nedra" > wrote in message
link.net...
> Since when do we ask if 220 gallons is too small for Koi?
> That would appear to be a given. Any problems would stem
> from that fact.
>
> Nedra

[jammer]

Oh!! lol


On 16 Jul 2003 16:15:54 GMT, (GACinMass)
wrote:

>>How many koi do you have in 220 gal.????????
>
>Sorry, I meant 2200 gallons. I've got to start proofreading my posts!
>
>~ Gary

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>But, BV ... this just shoots in the bu**
>our (rec.ponds) most recent theory that we need 1,000
>gallons of water for the first Koi and 100 gallons for
>every Koi after that. I don't remember seeing any conditions
>tagged onto that theory ....
>Nedra

That ideal is excellent "rule of thumb" information for newbies. Those of
us who "think" we know what we're doing can get away with less pond, more
fish, by mega filtration. Otherwise I'd never have hope of getting this 20"
sick koi healthy as it's only in ~50-60 gallons.... with 20 gallons of
filter. ;o) ~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

[K30a]

jj wrote >>That ideal is excellent "rule of thumb" information for newbies.<<
And safer for the potential fish.
Unfortunately there are so many articles
out there in main stream magazines that
advise gardeners to dig a hole and toss in
koi with little or no information on how to
care for these fish.
Those articles fry me crispy!


k30a

[~ jan jjspondus]

On 16 Jul 2003 09:59:12 -0500, "Lee Brouillet" > wrote:

Regarding an answer to your question for a shotgun treatment . . .

when you know something is wrong, but you don't know what

you know your water parameters are good, so your problem is not there

you don't have a 'scope, so you can't define the suspected parasite

The "latest and greatest" shotgun method is a combination of Prazi and
ProForm-C. Prazi is a treatment for flukes, and also acts as an internal
wormer for koi and goldfish. It will not harm either, and is pretty close
to a one-step treatment. It will not kill your filter, either. ProForm-C
is a formalin-based med that will "nuke" just about everything else, but
can be used in colder water than normal formalin based meds (so you can get
an earlier start coming out of winter). It's also filter-friendly.

These two meds can be mixed together for a one-shot treatment. In fact,
it's preferred: Prazi can be "a bit of a trial", shall we say, to dissolve
.. . .
but mixes right up with the ProForm-C.

Caveat: NO SALT can be in the pond. Salt levels MUST be below .05 Formalin
and salt are not compatible. That's an arguable statement, but better safe
than sorry.

Now, if you have a bacterial problem (fin rot, ulcers, BGD), TriCide Neo is
the "latest and greatest" for that. However, it requires that you catch the
fish and treat according to directions. You CAN treat the pond, but it's
wasteful. KoiZyme (formerly Lymnozyme) is a "preventative", not a
medicine.
It should be used weekly, not as a "cure".

Prazi: http://tinyurl.com/bk8i
ProForm-C: http://tinyurl.com/h3tx
Tricide Neo: http://tinyurl.com/e6fd

I hope this helps.

Lee