Does size matter...when stocking Koi in your pond... :)

[Chad]

I would like to know how many koi rec.ponder's are really stocking in
their ponds. I have seen the recommended stock postings, yet I wonder
what is really being done by the average pond enthusiast.

Preface, As of right now I have an approximate 1500 gallon pond with 5
Koi, 2 comets, 3 feeder goldfish(Don't really want them - just
inherited them) and hundreds of mosquito fish. In addition I have
ton's of WH, 5 water Lilies, Hornwort, Anacharis and a bunch of
marginals. But that is not where I started....

I built my first pond when I was 13, my dad bought a tetra flexible
liner and I dug the hole and put it in. We used this for a couple of
years then I swithed to fiberglass stock tanks then finally to
preformed liners. I had never had anything larger than 200 gallons.
For the first 8 years I had no plants at all – just fish. I started
with 12 Koi. Yes, 12. Nedra... get up off the floor. :) They were
all around 2-3 inches when I bought them. The first 2 years I kept
them outside in the summer and inside during the winter. Then in the
summer of my third year I was cleaning the pond when I had to leave
for a while and I accidently left the pump draining the pond.
Needless to say I lost 7 fish. Some to the lack of water, others to
sunburning. The remaining 5 fish stayed in the pond year round after
that. I never used chemicals for algae, nor did I have ANY
filtration. Frequent well water changes where it. We lost 3 of the
five during the 5 years I was at college. Not all at once, nor in the
same year. My remaining two fish stayed at my parents house until
1998 when I moved them to my 200 gallon pond I put in at my new house.
This was the first time they had ever had a filter, in addition I
started to use algae controllers since I was on city water and
couldn't change it like I did before. 3 years ago I almost lost both
of them to disease after a really cold winter and bad sludge problems
in the pond. At this time I had the two original fish plus 1 of the
koi mentioned above and the two comets in the pond. I medicated them
with a ton of medication and brought them back from sick curled up
floaters to healthy fish. Later that year I lost one of the two
original to the same disease. The other made it until last year when
he mysteriously died while I was on vacation. I examined him but
there was no sign of disease. He was 16 years old and had spent his
life in less than 200 gallons and was the friendliest fish I have ever
had.

So, I have read the rules. I have seen the wolves (maybe raccoon's is
more appropriate) attack those who admit to not following the rules,
yet my experience breaks the rules. I don't see many postings from
those who are apparently overstocking. Perhaps they are scared of the
raccoon's like I was. I know I cannot be the only one who has done
this, so I am curious what others are really doing.

[BenignVanilla]

"Chad" > wrote in message
om...
<snip>
> So, I have read the rules. I have seen the wolves (maybe raccoon's is
> more appropriate) attack those who admit to not following the rules,
> yet my experience breaks the rules. I don't see many postings from
> those who are apparently overstocking. Perhaps they are scared of the
> raccoon's like I was. I know I cannot be the only one who has done
> this, so I am curious what others are really doing.
<snip>

Pond Size: Rough Guess 3000 U.S. Gallons
Koi: 4
Goldfish: 5-7
Rosie Reds: 6,457,893


BV.

[BenignVanilla]

"Chad" > wrote in message
om...
<snip>
> So, I have read the rules. I have seen the wolves (maybe raccoon's is
> more appropriate) attack those who admit to not following the rules,
> yet my experience breaks the rules. I don't see many postings from
> those who are apparently overstocking. Perhaps they are scared of the
> raccoon's like I was. I know I cannot be the only one who has done
> this, so I am curious what others are really doing.

Updated counts:

Pond Size: Rough Guess 3000 U.S. Gallons
Koi: 4
Goldfish: 5-7
Rosie Reds: 10,123,004

[Sam Hopkins]

Size doesn't matter when stocking. When stocking fish you have two things to
contend with:

Quality of life for a fish. You can keep a 18" koi alive in 1 gallon of
water but what kind of life is that? The 1000 gallons for the first koi is
so it has room to move freely.

Amount of waste and what you do with that waste. If you do a 100% water
change every day you can again keep a 18" koi alive in 1 gallon of water.
Instead of replacing water to reduce the amount of waste some people filter
the waste through bio filters to convert it and then use plants to absorb
it. There's no difference between he two. With each you're getting rid of
the waste. Now I doubt it's possible to do a water change with city water
for a 5,000 gallon pond every week just for the sheer cost of it. Even well
water costs money in electricity to pump it out of the ground not to mention
the time it'd take to do it.

Sam


"Chad" > wrote in message
om...
> I would like to know how many koi rec.ponder's are really stocking in
> their ponds. I have seen the recommended stock postings, yet I wonder
> what is really being done by the average pond enthusiast.
>
> Preface, As of right now I have an approximate 1500 gallon pond with 5
> Koi, 2 comets, 3 feeder goldfish(Don't really want them - just
> inherited them) and hundreds of mosquito fish. In addition I have
> ton's of WH, 5 water Lilies, Hornwort, Anacharis and a bunch of
> marginals. But that is not where I started....
>
> I built my first pond when I was 13, my dad bought a tetra flexible
> liner and I dug the hole and put it in. We used this for a couple of
> years then I swithed to fiberglass stock tanks then finally to
> preformed liners. I had never had anything larger than 200 gallons.
> For the first 8 years I had no plants at all - just fish. I started
> with 12 Koi. Yes, 12. Nedra... get up off the floor. :) They were
> all around 2-3 inches when I bought them. The first 2 years I kept
> them outside in the summer and inside during the winter. Then in the
> summer of my third year I was cleaning the pond when I had to leave
> for a while and I accidently left the pump draining the pond.
> Needless to say I lost 7 fish. Some to the lack of water, others to
> sunburning. The remaining 5 fish stayed in the pond year round after
> that. I never used chemicals for algae, nor did I have ANY
> filtration. Frequent well water changes where it. We lost 3 of the
> five during the 5 years I was at college. Not all at once, nor in the
> same year. My remaining two fish stayed at my parents house until
> 1998 when I moved them to my 200 gallon pond I put in at my new house.
> This was the first time they had ever had a filter, in addition I
> started to use algae controllers since I was on city water and
> couldn't change it like I did before. 3 years ago I almost lost both
> of them to disease after a really cold winter and bad sludge problems
> in the pond. At this time I had the two original fish plus 1 of the
> koi mentioned above and the two comets in the pond. I medicated them
> with a ton of medication and brought them back from sick curled up
> floaters to healthy fish. Later that year I lost one of the two
> original to the same disease. The other made it until last year when
> he mysteriously died while I was on vacation. I examined him but
> there was no sign of disease. He was 16 years old and had spent his
> life in less than 200 gallons and was the friendliest fish I have ever
> had.
>
> So, I have read the rules. I have seen the wolves (maybe raccoon's is
> more appropriate) attack those who admit to not following the rules,
> yet my experience breaks the rules. I don't see many postings from
> those who are apparently overstocking. Perhaps they are scared of the
> raccoon's like I was. I know I cannot be the only one who has done
> this, so I am curious what others are really doing.

[BenignVanilla]

"zookeeper" > wrote in message
...
<snip>
> BV, in your case, are you trying to find the upper limit of
> "overstocking" for Rosie Reds? Or is this part of the "pond shop"
inventory?
<snip>

To be honest I have not been able to find a test kit to tell me the ppm of
water in my rosie red pond.

BV.

[John Rutz]

BenignVanilla wrote:
> "Chad" > wrote in message
> om...
> <snip>
>
>>So, I have read the rules. I have seen the wolves (maybe raccoon's is
>>more appropriate) attack those who admit to not following the rules,
>>yet my experience breaks the rules. I don't see many postings from
>>those who are apparently overstocking. Perhaps they are scared of the
>>raccoon's like I was. I know I cannot be the only one who has done
>>this, so I am curious what others are really doing.
>
> <snip>
>
> pond 8000 gal june 120 Koi---- now 25


John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

never miss a good oportunity to shut up

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

[Nedra]

Chad, I started this ponding experience as the direct result
of having my gorgeous back yard torn up for a 'new' septic
system. I was so angry - that I went for water instead of lawn.
My first pond was 125 gallons. I thought it was Big!! So
I bought 5 tiny little koi and 3 goldfish. I had two water
lilies, a 325 gph pump and a filter. Also lots of bought
water plants. This was in the fall of 1994. A month
later, November to be exact, I had a 3,000 gallon pond built!
Not that the fish went in this monstrosity ... Oh No! They
wintered over in the 125 gallon pond. I trudged out to that tiny
little pond many times a day.... just watching the inactive koi!
They all lived over the Very Mild Winter. I had two test kits;
pond books by the dozens; De-Icers (two);
water gardening friends on the Internet
(most famous one is Helen Nash).
In the spring I shop vac'd the small pond; then caught the fish and turned
them loose in the big pond. In May of that year we had rains
that would *not* quit ... the liner lifted up from the ground and
let all the sandy loam (I'd paid a fortune for that dirt!) into
the pond. A year later I had the sides built up and the rocky
surround built. It has been an experience...
So, when I quote the theories and such it is because I would
like to have folks avoid the pitfalls I have fallen into. I think
I was very lucky to have wintered over the 5 four inch koi.
I learned a bunch - not only from books (I'm a book-aholic)
but also from the good folk here on rec.ponds.

I now have a total of 13 Koi. Some are huge - some are their
offspring. I haven't lost any fish.... that would be something I'm
not sure I could handle.
You can see the beginnings of my experiences in the websites
below. The first - is well.... the first ;-) The second is mostly
lotuses.

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"Chad" > wrote in message
om...
> I would like to know how many koi rec.ponder's are really stocking in
> their ponds. I have seen the recommended stock postings, yet I wonder
> what is really being done by the average pond enthusiast.
>
> Preface, As of right now I have an approximate 1500 gallon pond with 5
> Koi, 2 comets, 3 feeder goldfish(Don't really want them - just
> inherited them) and hundreds of mosquito fish. In addition I have
> ton's of WH, 5 water Lilies, Hornwort, Anacharis and a bunch of
> marginals. But that is not where I started....
>
> I built my first pond when I was 13, my dad bought a tetra flexible
> liner and I dug the hole and put it in. We used this for a couple of
> years then I swithed to fiberglass stock tanks then finally to
> preformed liners. I had never had anything larger than 200 gallons.
> For the first 8 years I had no plants at all - just fish. I started
> with 12 Koi. Yes, 12. Nedra... get up off the floor. :) They were
> all around 2-3 inches when I bought them. The first 2 years I kept
> them outside in the summer and inside during the winter. Then in the
> summer of my third year I was cleaning the pond when I had to leave
> for a while and I accidently left the pump draining the pond.
> Needless to say I lost 7 fish. Some to the lack of water, others to
> sunburning. The remaining 5 fish stayed in the pond year round after
> that. I never used chemicals for algae, nor did I have ANY
> filtration. Frequent well water changes where it. We lost 3 of the
> five during the 5 years I was at college. Not all at once, nor in the
> same year. My remaining two fish stayed at my parents house until
> 1998 when I moved them to my 200 gallon pond I put in at my new house.
> This was the first time they had ever had a filter, in addition I
> started to use algae controllers since I was on city water and
> couldn't change it like I did before. 3 years ago I almost lost both
> of them to disease after a really cold winter and bad sludge problems
> in the pond. At this time I had the two original fish plus 1 of the
> koi mentioned above and the two comets in the pond. I medicated them
> with a ton of medication and brought them back from sick curled up
> floaters to healthy fish. Later that year I lost one of the two
> original to the same disease. The other made it until last year when
> he mysteriously died while I was on vacation. I examined him but
> there was no sign of disease. He was 16 years old and had spent his
> life in less than 200 gallons and was the friendliest fish I have ever
> had.
>
> So, I have read the rules. I have seen the wolves (maybe raccoon's is
> more appropriate) attack those who admit to not following the rules,
> yet my experience breaks the rules. I don't see many postings from
> those who are apparently overstocking. Perhaps they are scared of the
> raccoon's like I was. I know I cannot be the only one who has done
> this, so I am curious what others are really doing.
>

[John Rutz]

BenignVanilla wrote:
> "zookeeper" > wrote in message
> ...
> <snip>
>
>>BV, in your case, are you trying to find the upper limit of
>>"overstocking" for Rosie Reds? Or is this part of the "pond shop"
>
> inventory?
> <snip>
>
> To be honest I have not been able to find a test kit to tell me the ppm of
> water in my rosie red pond.
>
> BV.
>
>

oh thank goodness I forgot my cofee cup but i did inhale a cigarete LOL
--





John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

never miss a good oportunity to shut up

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

[rtk]

BenignVanilla wrote:

> Updated counts:
..........
> Rosie Reds: 10,123,004
>
What a coincidence! Last time I counted the guppies in my turtle tank I
had exactly the same number: 10,123,004.


Ruth Kazez

>

[K30a]

Pond size: close estimate of 3,000 gallons
Koi: 5
Goldfish and mutts: 30ish
Rosie Reds: all eaten by bullfrogs
(BV try inviting a few hit frogs to SH's pond.)


k30a

[K30a]

As far raising fish in small and overcrowded conditions you've got to give some
thought to
your future in the afterlife.

You might end up spending eternity in a little, tiny apartment surrounded by
hundreds of your relations...


k30a

[BenignVanilla]

"K30a" > wrote in message
...
>
> Pond size: close estimate of 3,000 gallons
> Koi: 5
> Goldfish and mutts: 30ish
> Rosie Reds: all eaten by bullfrogs
> (BV try inviting a few hit frogs to SH's pond.)

We have a small mafia of frogs. We had six but apparently he was whacked.
The remaining five just sit there, and pretend not to be seen. NOBODY IS
EATING MY MINNOWS!!! Once a week or so, I catch a bunch and set them loose
in my aquarium. My tinfoils love them, I am just not sure they can eat them
all.

BV.

[BenignVanilla]

"John Rutz" > wrote in message
...
> BenignVanilla wrote:
> > "zookeeper" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > <snip>
> >
> >>BV, in your case, are you trying to find the upper limit of
> >>"overstocking" for Rosie Reds? Or is this part of the "pond shop"
> >
> > inventory?
> > <snip>
> >
> > To be honest I have not been able to find a test kit to tell me the ppm
of
> > water in my rosie red pond.
> >
> > BV.
> >
> >
>
> oh thank goodness I forgot my cofee cup but i did inhale a cigarete LOL
<snip>

So no SOMLOL, but you did COCLOL, eh?

[BenignVanilla]

"rtk" > wrote in message ...
>
>
> BenignVanilla wrote:
>
> > Updated counts:
> .........
> > Rosie Reds: 10,123,004
> >
> What a coincidence! Last time I counted the guppies in my turtle tank I
> had exactly the same number: 10,123,004.

Would you care to have 20,246,008?

BV.

[K30a]

BV wrote >>All of my in-laws now live in MD, as of two weeks ago. I think what
you are
saying is I am actually dead?<<

So Heaven is in Maryland, who'da thought?
;-)


k30a

[John Hines]

"BenignVanilla" > wrote:

>"K30a" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> Pond size: close estimate of 3,000 gallons
>> Koi: 5
>> Goldfish and mutts: 30ish
>> Rosie Reds: all eaten by bullfrogs
>> (BV try inviting a few hit frogs to SH's pond.)
>
>We have a small mafia of frogs. We had six but apparently he was whacked.
>The remaining five just sit there, and pretend not to be seen. NOBODY IS
>EATING MY MINNOWS!!! Once a week or so, I catch a bunch and set them loose
>in my aquarium. My tinfoils love them, I am just not sure they can eat them
>all.

I thought, probably from too many tv beer ads, that frogs caught insects
with their tounge? At least the ones we want with our ponds.

A pet shop by me had northern pike, and muskie (4-6") one time. I asked
and yes, they were captive bred and legal. I got my koi and plants from
them this year, I don't know what else they got.

[John Hines]

(K30a) wrote:

>BV wrote >>All of my in-laws now live in MD, as of two weeks ago. I think what
>you are
>saying is I am actually dead?<<
>
>So Heaven is in Maryland, who'da thought?

We KNOW clay hell is.

[K30a]

BV wrote >>I was actually referring to the other place<<

Oh, I thought that place was all confined to the
District of Columbia...


k30a

[John Hines]

John Hines > wrote:

(K30a) wrote:
>
>>BV wrote >>All of my in-laws now live in MD, as of two weeks ago. I think what
>>you are
>>saying is I am actually dead?<<
>>
>>So Heaven is in Maryland, who'da thought?
>
>We KNOW clay hell is.

Sorry,

We KNOW where clay hell is.

[Bonnie Espenshade]

Chad wrote:
> I would like to know how many koi rec.ponder's are really stocking in
> their ponds. I have seen the recommended stock postings, yet I wonder
> what is really being done by the average pond enthusiast.
>
My ponds combined are a little under 5000 gallons. Koi pond
has 10 large koi and maybe 10-12 yearlings I haven't caught
yet. Goldfish pond has about 40 goldfish and 4 orfe.

--
Bonnie
NJ
http://home.earthlink.net/~maebe43/

[FBCS]

Not me!
We are Marylanders and are always running to West VA.
"K30a" > wrote in message
...
> BV wrote >>All of my in-laws now live in MD, as of two weeks ago. I think
what
> you are
> saying is I am actually dead?<<
>
> So Heaven is in Maryland, who'da thought?
> ;-)
>
>
> k30a

[FBCS]

That's the truth, we've been sentenced to hard labor here.
And it's time to enlarge my pond!.

"John Hines" > wrote in message
...
> (K30a) wrote:
>
> >BV wrote >>All of my in-laws now live in MD, as of two weeks ago. I
think what
> >you are
> >saying is I am actually dead?<<
> >
> >So Heaven is in Maryland, who'da thought?
>
> We KNOW clay hell is.
>

[zookeeper]

BenignVanilla wrote:
> "zookeeper" > wrote
>
>>BV, in your case, are you trying to find the upper limit of
>>"overstocking" for Rosie Reds? Or is this part of the "pond shop"
>>inventory?
> <snip>
>
> To be honest I have not been able to find a test kit to tell me the ppm of
> water in my rosie red pond.

BEOKAM or C\N>K!! Okay, so it took me only 3 tries to understand what
type of test kit you were trying to locate!! Guess that means its too
early to read newsgroup messages.
--
zookeeper

[zookeeper]

rtk wrote:
>
> BenignVanilla wrote:
>> Updated counts:
> ..........
>> Rosie Reds: 10,123,004
>>
> What a coincidence! Last time I counted the guppies in my turtle tank I
> had exactly the same number: 10,123,004.

Wow, do you two have tons of time on your hands or what?!!!! Or has
someone invented the automatic "fish fry counter?" Although, come to
think of it, that's the same number of mosquito larvae found in our
mosquito dunk treated swimming pool last month.
--
zookeeper

[BenignVanilla]

"FBCS" > wrote in message
...
> Not me!
> We are Marylanders and are always running to West VA.
<snip>

Yes, we too do oft run to Va and West Va.

BV.

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

Koi Ponds total size: 1,500 gallons 1995
Koi: 17 this spring, sold 2 early on,but not soon enough, 2 sick and out of
pond one of which is now deceased. 1st case of illness I've every had, as I
failed to lower the stocking rate soon enough as koi grew. :o(

Lilypond: 1,000 gallons
Fancy Goldfish: 5 only (that may all be female) w/a few tadpoles left.
~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

Update: 2nd fish was put down after found floating on side still breathing,
it would have been a major miracle if it had lived anyway. Another victim,
with small ulcers, has been pulled from pond, hopefully at an earlier stage
to rescue.

This one was also scraped for a microscope slide, behind gill, vent and
just before the tail, nothing found.

If anyone is thinking of using Tricide Neo, talk to me. I've tried several
methods as described on Dr.J's website, so I'm somewhat experienced on the
good, ugly & scaley of the methods listed. ~ jan

>Koi Ponds total size: 1,500 gallons 1995
>Koi: 17 this spring, sold 2 early on,but not soon enough, 2 sick and out of
>pond one of which is now deceased. 1st case of illness I've every had, as I
>failed to lower the stocking rate soon enough as koi grew. :o(
>
>Lilypond: 1,000 gallons
>Fancy Goldfish: 5 only (that may all be female) w/a few tadpoles left.
>~ jan
>
>See my ponds and filter design:
>http://users.owt.com/jjspond/
>
> ~Keep 'em Wet!~
> Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
> To e-mail see website


See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

[Nedra]

Jan,
The illness of your fish has me rather worried. Our ponds are
the same age and I've never had a sickness either.... (fingers and toes are
crossed). I know you closely watch the quality of
the water - But, isn't your filter supposed to take care of things like
this? How could fish get ulcers without something showing in the
tests?

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
> Update: 2nd fish was put down after found floating on side still
breathing,
> it would have been a major miracle if it had lived anyway. Another victim,
> with small ulcers, has been pulled from pond, hopefully at an earlier
stage
> to rescue.
>
> This one was also scraped for a microscope slide, behind gill, vent and
> just before the tail, nothing found.
>
> If anyone is thinking of using Tricide Neo, talk to me. I've tried several
> methods as described on Dr.J's website, so I'm somewhat experienced on the
> good, ugly & scaley of the methods listed. ~ jan
>
> >Koi Ponds total size: 1,500 gallons 1995
> >Koi: 17 this spring, sold 2 early on,but not soon enough, 2 sick and out
of
> >pond one of which is now deceased. 1st case of illness I've every had, as
I
> >failed to lower the stocking rate soon enough as koi grew. :o(
> >
> >Lilypond: 1,000 gallons
> >Fancy Goldfish: 5 only (that may all be female) w/a few tadpoles left.
> >~ jan
> >
> >See my ponds and filter design:
> >http://users.owt.com/jjspond/
> >
> > ~Keep 'em Wet!~
> > Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
> > To e-mail see website
>
>
> See my ponds and filter design:
> http://users.owt.com/jjspond/
>
> ~Keep 'em Wet!~
> Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
> To e-mail see website
>

[[email protected]]

have you called Jo Ann and talked it over with her? Ingrid

~ jan JJsPond.us > wrote:
>Update: 2nd fish was put down after found floating on side still breathing,
>it would have been a major miracle if it had lived anyway. Another victim,
>with small ulcers, has been pulled from pond, hopefully at an earlier stage
>to rescue.
>
>This one was also scraped for a microscope slide, behind gill, vent and
>just before the tail, nothing found.
>
>If anyone is thinking of using Tricide Neo, talk to me. I've tried several
>methods as described on Dr.J's website, so I'm somewhat experienced on the
>good, ugly & scaley of the methods listed. ~ jan
>
>>Koi Ponds total size: 1,500 gallons 1995
>>Koi: 17 this spring, sold 2 early on,but not soon enough, 2 sick and out of
>>pond one of which is now deceased. 1st case of illness I've every had, as I
>>failed to lower the stocking rate soon enough as koi grew. :o(
>>
>>Lilypond: 1,000 gallons
>>Fancy Goldfish: 5 only (that may all be female) w/a few tadpoles left.
>>~ jan
>>
>>See my ponds and filter design:
>>http://users.owt.com/jjspond/
>>
>> ~Keep 'em Wet!~
>> Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
>> To e-mail see website
>
>
>See my ponds and filter design:
>http://users.owt.com/jjspond/
>
> ~Keep 'em Wet!~
> Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
> To e-mail see website



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 08:11:57 -0500, "Tom La Bron" > wrote:

>Since you were disposing of the fish anyway you should have done a gill
>scraping.

We did that when it was alive. One fluke was found, sick tank and pond were
treated with malathion. Just for the experience though, I should have
anyway. Dang. ~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

Hiya Ingrid, haven't talked with JoAnn. I'm pretty sure I know what was
going on and why......

>On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 01:16:07 GMT, "RichToyBox" > wrote:
>There are other causes of ulcers besides parasites. Scrapes and scratches
>gotten during spawning can become very bad ulcers. Do you use KoiZyme. I
>have not had to use injectables on but two fish in the last 4 or 5 years
>since I started with the KoiZyme. It doesn't do anything for the parasites,
>but it sure keeps the fish from having the bacterial infections.

Not to go into a long story, but I do believe that it was not jumping when
I saw the first fish flash once, like I've done in the past. Thus, when the
fish really got bugged and these 2 were flashing hard, they really did a
number on themselves. They could have been bugged just by the water
quality, wasn't bad, but as we all preach.... anything about zero isn't
good. I wasn't using KoiZyme when the flashing started. It's in there now,
so far no more have anything major going on. Pearl, my biggest, does have a
couple of red pimples, but she always fights them off, and is still doing
so, they come they go. So I leave her alone. I have another with what I'm
guessing might be a small bird peck, it's white and healing. It's a very
odd wound, looks like something pinched around the dorsal fin and into her
upper back than let go, as the dorsal fin is not split. Yet when it grows
out I think there will be a hole in the dorsal fin for awhile. Fish aren't
acting like I've had a predator though.

All fish are on a medicated feed at this time. I've sent that info to JoAnn
and I'm hoping in the future she might start carrying it. ~ jan

Water quality recovered after I sold the 2, the lost 2 were worked on TOO
late as I was hoping they would recover on their own. Actually I tried to
treat them topically and put them back in the pond, IME, forget doing that,
just commit to setting up a sick tank. ~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

>On 21 Jul 2003 08:27:13 -0500, "Lee Brouillet" > wrote:

>Would you please share your Tricide Neo experience?

IME, the ideal way to do it, is put a gallon of the mixture in a bag. Do
not sedate fish, using a koi sock net, catch fish, rinse with pond water,
put in bag, hold bag up so liquid covers fish. A gallon will be enough. Set
timer as directed on package. Fish did not get all frantic in the less than
5 minutes we had it in there. Net out with koi sock, rinse and put in sick
tank, very little human handling. The meds will last thru the 3 times easy,
if the fish doesn't poop in bag, so don't feed the day you're gonna do it.
It needs to be aerated and stored in a dark container (think rubbermaid)
with an airstone in the bag.

Economically, if you have a chemist or someone with accurate gram scales
buy the 5 gallon amount and then divide the meds by 5 portions store dry in
a dark container, I'm using a decorator tin. ~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

[Theo van Daele]

Jan...

Sorry to read all this.

FWIW, you are one of the jewels of these NG, and I hope you don't blame
yourself.

Yup, ugly stuff like having a job (!?) can make us a bit less vigilant
(d'uh). But real life does kick in sometimes doesn't it ?

Some people have loads of fish dying because of ignorance, but sometimes
it's just... an accident :-( I think we can scrap "ignorance" in your case
!

Live & learn... you bet.

I hope the other guys/gals "swim" through all this.

Here's hoping :-)

Theo

PS: we humans have a great "bouncing back" feature... when you feel like it,
go out and buy a magoi or a chagoi !

"~ jan JJsPond.us" > schreef in bericht
...
> >Jan,
> >The illness of your fish has me rather worried. Our ponds are
> >the same age and I've never had a sickness either.... (fingers and toes
are
> >crossed). I know you closely watch the quality of
> >the water - But, isn't your filter supposed to take care of things like
> >this? How could fish get ulcers without something showing in the
> >tests? >Nedra
>
> Actually I had some water quality issues in the spring. Problem was I was
> adjusting to my full life and trying to work a JOB in there too. So I
> wasn't out there as much watching the fish as I normally would have been
> otherwise. :o( Plus, I knew I was over crowded as of last summer and
> should have done something about it then and not waited. Live & learn.
> ~ jan
>

[Nedra]

Thanks for the explantion. Sorry for your loss .....

I wash my filter bags Every Day ... no other way around
that. I really need to put in more filtration. Think I'll do
the whiskey barrels (3) and the 125 gallon preform..
That should hold them (the Koi) for this year.

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
> >Jan,
> >The illness of your fish has me rather worried. Our ponds are
> >the same age and I've never had a sickness either.... (fingers and toes
are
> >crossed). I know you closely watch the quality of
> >the water - But, isn't your filter supposed to take care of things like
> >this? How could fish get ulcers without something showing in the
> >tests? >Nedra
>
> Actually I had some water quality issues in the spring. Problem was I was
> adjusting to my full life and trying to work a JOB in there too. So I
> wasn't out there as much watching the fish as I normally would have been
> otherwise. :o( Plus, I knew I was over crowded as of last summer and
> should have done something about it then and not waited. Live & learn.
> ~ jan
>
> See my ponds and filter design:
> http://users.owt.com/jjspond/
>
> ~Keep 'em Wet!~
> Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
> To e-mail see website
>

[[email protected]]

Jan... a single fluke is not an infestation. Most fish got a fluke or two. we arent
talking dacs, right? Ingrid

~ jan JJsPond.us > wrote:

>>On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 08:11:57 -0500, "Tom La Bron" > wrote:
>
>>Since you were disposing of the fish anyway you should have done a gill
>>scraping.
>
>We did that when it was alive. One fluke was found, sick tank and pond were
>treated with malathion. Just for the experience though, I should have
>anyway. Dang. ~ jan
>
>See my ponds and filter design:
>http://users.owt.com/jjspond/
>
> ~Keep 'em Wet!~
> Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
> To e-mail see website



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 22:19:58 GMT, wrote:

>Jan... a single fluke is not an infestation.

Exactly my point for not nuking the pond, one fluke on a stressed fish is
like one aphid on a rose petal, you don't get out the DDT and nuke the
yard.

>Most fish got a fluke or two. we arent
>talking dacs, right? Ingrid

Yes, it was a gill fluke. ~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

[Lee Brouillet]

I saw your posting on another board regarding this subject. Finquel is the
"vet" stuff, and much more potent. Folks I know that have done the
"anesthesia" route and the TriCide Neo have used Oil of Cloves, much more
passive and forgiving regarding dosing. Finquel dosing is, well, finicky! A
little too much, and oops! - which may be the cause of the problems. Oil of
Cloves is a LOT cheaper, too. And smells better! Finquel is fine for actual
surgical procedures, to put the fish "under". It's also the only anesthesia
allowed for food fish. But being as I'm not planning on eating my koi, the
Oil of Cloves is kinda like (to draw an analogy!) the laughing gas at the
dentist's office: They just don't care! Both have their place: it's just
that I only keep Oil of Cloves on hand because I'm not planning on
performing surgery. It's better suited for fish that you just want to
handle, IMHO. I'm lucky if I can bowl any of my koi; forget about handling
them without a struggle.

Lee

"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
> >On 22 Jul 2003 07:53:04 -0500, "Lee Brouillet" > wrote:
>
> >I hadn't thought of separating it -- duh! BTW, if you don't have one, a
> >digital postal scale is a cheap way to get around the expensive gram
scales.
> >Mine does ounces or grams, including tare (so you don't include the
weight
> >of your container when you're measuring), and goes up to 5 lbs. I think
it
> >cost about $30.00 or so. FYG, if you didn't see it anywhere, Doc J says
you
> >can strain the mix through a coffee filter to remove excess slime and
fish
> >poo, etc. and refrigerate the mix to get about a month out of it.
>
> Course if you're still having trouble after a month...... ;o) The dip
seems
> to stay fairly clean and doesn't make the fish shed its slime coat that I
> can tell. I really wonder if Doc J came up with these ideas, but hasn't
> experienced them, because.....
>
> > the spray method will allow the mixture to go further, for those on a
budget.
>
> just forget this. To use the spray method you must sedate the fish and
> Finquel isn't cheap either, in liquid form has a storage of up to a week
at
> room temp, so you can get thru a treatment on the same container....
again,
> if the fish doesn't contaminate it with feces.
>
> I did this method first, pulled weakest fish out, sedated, sprayed and
kept
> moist for 2-3 minutes, put into wake up water, dead as a door nail. I
> worked on it for 15 minutes with airstone all but stuck in its mouth.
>
> Next fish, sedated, sprayed it and 1 minute into treatment it wakes up. It
> flipping and a flopping all over the hot tub cover. Meds & slime going all
> over me, the hot tub cover, the house & window. It's one thing to hold a
> fish that is wet & slimy, but when covered with this medication, there is
> no holding it. I was lucky just to get a grip as it flipped off the edge
of
> the hot tub and stopped struggling. Had it continued it would have gone
> behind the hot tub, on to the dusty cement and I would have had the devil
> of a time getting it out from behind there. Gives me shivers just to think
> about it. If you chose this method, sprayed it inside a tub.
>
> Personally though, it just not worth going thru the sedating procedure,
> imo. Not to mention all those containers need to be very close in temp &
> pH, or one just adds more stress.
>
> There is another couple in the club who feel that there might be counter
> indications (is that the correct term?) using Finquel & Tricide-Neo. That
> they cause an adverse reaction. Their theory is only based on a leather
koi
> that went thru the Finquel into the dip and came out filleted.... the wife
> said he left it in the dip 10 minutes and the directions say no longer
than
> 5. So I have to verify that. Then there is my experience, but both fish
> were pretty far along in their problems by the time I got set up and the
> meds in the mail. Thus, if anyone else results are different, I'd like to
> hear about it. ~ jan
>
> See my ponds and filter design:
> http://users.owt.com/jjspond/
>
> ~Keep 'em Wet!~
> Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
> To e-mail see website

[Lee Brouillet]

I saw your posting on another board regarding this subject. Finquel is the
"vet" stuff, and much more potent. Folks I know that have done the
"anesthesia" route and the TriCide Neo have used Oil of Cloves, much more
passive and forgiving regarding dosing. Finquel dosing is, well, finicky! A
little too much, and oops! - which may be the cause of the problems. Oil of
Cloves is a LOT cheaper, too. And smells better! Finquel is fine for actual
surgical procedures, to put the fish "under". It's also the only anesthesia
allowed for food fish. But being as I'm not planning on eating my koi, the
Oil of Cloves is kinda like (to draw an analogy!) the laughing gas at the
dentist's office: They just don't care! Both have their place: it's just
that I only keep Oil of Cloves on hand because I'm not planning on
performing surgery. It's better suited for fish that you just want to
handle, IMHO. I'm lucky if I can bowl any of my koi; forget about handling
them without a struggle.

Lee

"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
> >On 22 Jul 2003 07:53:04 -0500, "Lee Brouillet" > wrote:
>
> >I hadn't thought of separating it -- duh! BTW, if you don't have one, a
> >digital postal scale is a cheap way to get around the expensive gram
scales.
> >Mine does ounces or grams, including tare (so you don't include the
weight
> >of your container when you're measuring), and goes up to 5 lbs. I think
it
> >cost about $30.00 or so. FYG, if you didn't see it anywhere, Doc J says
you
> >can strain the mix through a coffee filter to remove excess slime and
fish
> >poo, etc. and refrigerate the mix to get about a month out of it.
>
> Course if you're still having trouble after a month...... ;o) The dip
seems
> to stay fairly clean and doesn't make the fish shed its slime coat that I
> can tell. I really wonder if Doc J came up with these ideas, but hasn't
> experienced them, because.....
>
> > the spray method will allow the mixture to go further, for those on a
budget.
>
> just forget this. To use the spray method you must sedate the fish and
> Finquel isn't cheap either, in liquid form has a storage of up to a week
at
> room temp, so you can get thru a treatment on the same container....
again,
> if the fish doesn't contaminate it with feces.
>
> I did this method first, pulled weakest fish out, sedated, sprayed and
kept
> moist for 2-3 minutes, put into wake up water, dead as a door nail. I
> worked on it for 15 minutes with airstone all but stuck in its mouth.
>
> Next fish, sedated, sprayed it and 1 minute into treatment it wakes up. It
> flipping and a flopping all over the hot tub cover. Meds & slime going all
> over me, the hot tub cover, the house & window. It's one thing to hold a
> fish that is wet & slimy, but when covered with this medication, there is
> no holding it. I was lucky just to get a grip as it flipped off the edge
of
> the hot tub and stopped struggling. Had it continued it would have gone
> behind the hot tub, on to the dusty cement and I would have had the devil
> of a time getting it out from behind there. Gives me shivers just to think
> about it. If you chose this method, sprayed it inside a tub.
>
> Personally though, it just not worth going thru the sedating procedure,
> imo. Not to mention all those containers need to be very close in temp &
> pH, or one just adds more stress.
>
> There is another couple in the club who feel that there might be counter
> indications (is that the correct term?) using Finquel & Tricide-Neo. That
> they cause an adverse reaction. Their theory is only based on a leather
koi
> that went thru the Finquel into the dip and came out filleted.... the wife
> said he left it in the dip 10 minutes and the directions say no longer
than
> 5. So I have to verify that. Then there is my experience, but both fish
> were pretty far along in their problems by the time I got set up and the
> meds in the mail. Thus, if anyone else results are different, I'd like to
> hear about it. ~ jan
>
> See my ponds and filter design:
> http://users.owt.com/jjspond/
>
> ~Keep 'em Wet!~
> Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
> To e-mail see website

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

From taking the KHA course Oil of Clove was not recommended because it
takes longer to put them out and longer to wake them up. They did not feel
it was as forgiving as your experience. My fish were barely knocked out.

Regardless though, from my experience, Finquel just isn't necessary if one
does the bag method. Last dip was done today, btw. Now we wait. ~ jan

>On 23 Jul 2003 09:24:13 -0500, "Lee Brouillet" > wrote:

>I saw your posting on another board regarding this subject. Finquel is the
>"vet" stuff, and much more potent. Folks I know that have done the
>"anesthesia" route and the TriCide Neo have used Oil of Cloves, much more
>passive and forgiving regarding dosing. Finquel dosing is, well, finicky! A
>little too much, and oops! - which may be the cause of the problems. Oil of
>Cloves is a LOT cheaper, too. And smells better! Finquel is fine for actual
>surgical procedures, to put the fish "under". It's also the only anesthesia
>allowed for food fish. But being as I'm not planning on eating my koi, the
>Oil of Cloves is kinda like (to draw an analogy!) the laughing gas at the
>dentist's office: They just don't care! Both have their place: it's just
>that I only keep Oil of Cloves on hand because I'm not planning on
>performing surgery. It's better suited for fish that you just want to
>handle, IMHO. I'm lucky if I can bowl any of my koi; forget about handling
>them without a struggle.
>
>Lee
>
>"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
>> >On 22 Jul 2003 07:53:04 -0500, "Lee Brouillet" > wrote:
>>
>> >I hadn't thought of separating it -- duh! BTW, if you don't have one, a
>> >digital postal scale is a cheap way to get around the expensive gram
>scales.
>> >Mine does ounces or grams, including tare (so you don't include the
>weight
>> >of your container when you're measuring), and goes up to 5 lbs. I think
>it
>> >cost about $30.00 or so. FYG, if you didn't see it anywhere, Doc J says
>you
>> >can strain the mix through a coffee filter to remove excess slime and
>fish
>> >poo, etc. and refrigerate the mix to get about a month out of it.
>>
>> Course if you're still having trouble after a month...... ;o) The dip
>seems
>> to stay fairly clean and doesn't make the fish shed its slime coat that I
>> can tell. I really wonder if Doc J came up with these ideas, but hasn't
>> experienced them, because.....
>>
>> > the spray method will allow the mixture to go further, for those on a
>budget.
>>
>> just forget this. To use the spray method you must sedate the fish and
>> Finquel isn't cheap either, in liquid form has a storage of up to a week
>at
>> room temp, so you can get thru a treatment on the same container....
>again,
>> if the fish doesn't contaminate it with feces.
>>
>> I did this method first, pulled weakest fish out, sedated, sprayed and
>kept
>> moist for 2-3 minutes, put into wake up water, dead as a door nail. I
>> worked on it for 15 minutes with airstone all but stuck in its mouth.
>>
>> Next fish, sedated, sprayed it and 1 minute into treatment it wakes up. It
>> flipping and a flopping all over the hot tub cover. Meds & slime going all
>> over me, the hot tub cover, the house & window. It's one thing to hold a
>> fish that is wet & slimy, but when covered with this medication, there is
>> no holding it. I was lucky just to get a grip as it flipped off the edge
>of
>> the hot tub and stopped struggling. Had it continued it would have gone
>> behind the hot tub, on to the dusty cement and I would have had the devil
>> of a time getting it out from behind there. Gives me shivers just to think
>> about it. If you chose this method, sprayed it inside a tub.
>>
>> Personally though, it just not worth going thru the sedating procedure,
>> imo. Not to mention all those containers need to be very close in temp &
>> pH, or one just adds more stress.
>>
>> There is another couple in the club who feel that there might be counter
>> indications (is that the correct term?) using Finquel & Tricide-Neo. That
>> they cause an adverse reaction. Their theory is only based on a leather
>koi
>> that went thru the Finquel into the dip and came out filleted.... the wife
>> said he left it in the dip 10 minutes and the directions say no longer
>than
>> 5. So I have to verify that. Then there is my experience, but both fish
>> were pretty far along in their problems by the time I got set up and the
>> meds in the mail. Thus, if anyone else results are different, I'd like to
>> hear about it. ~ jan
>>
>> See my ponds and filter design:
>> http://users.owt.com/jjspond/
>>
>> ~Keep 'em Wet!~
>> Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
>> To e-mail see website
>


See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

From taking the KHA course Oil of Clove was not recommended because it
takes longer to put them out and longer to wake them up. They did not feel
it was as forgiving as your experience. My fish were barely knocked out.

Regardless though, from my experience, Finquel just isn't necessary if one
does the bag method. Last dip was done today, btw. Now we wait. ~ jan

>On 23 Jul 2003 09:24:13 -0500, "Lee Brouillet" > wrote:

>I saw your posting on another board regarding this subject. Finquel is the
>"vet" stuff, and much more potent. Folks I know that have done the
>"anesthesia" route and the TriCide Neo have used Oil of Cloves, much more
>passive and forgiving regarding dosing. Finquel dosing is, well, finicky! A
>little too much, and oops! - which may be the cause of the problems. Oil of
>Cloves is a LOT cheaper, too. And smells better! Finquel is fine for actual
>surgical procedures, to put the fish "under". It's also the only anesthesia
>allowed for food fish. But being as I'm not planning on eating my koi, the
>Oil of Cloves is kinda like (to draw an analogy!) the laughing gas at the
>dentist's office: They just don't care! Both have their place: it's just
>that I only keep Oil of Cloves on hand because I'm not planning on
>performing surgery. It's better suited for fish that you just want to
>handle, IMHO. I'm lucky if I can bowl any of my koi; forget about handling
>them without a struggle.
>
>Lee
>
>"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
>> >On 22 Jul 2003 07:53:04 -0500, "Lee Brouillet" > wrote:
>>
>> >I hadn't thought of separating it -- duh! BTW, if you don't have one, a
>> >digital postal scale is a cheap way to get around the expensive gram
>scales.
>> >Mine does ounces or grams, including tare (so you don't include the
>weight
>> >of your container when you're measuring), and goes up to 5 lbs. I think
>it
>> >cost about $30.00 or so. FYG, if you didn't see it anywhere, Doc J says
>you
>> >can strain the mix through a coffee filter to remove excess slime and
>fish
>> >poo, etc. and refrigerate the mix to get about a month out of it.
>>
>> Course if you're still having trouble after a month...... ;o) The dip
>seems
>> to stay fairly clean and doesn't make the fish shed its slime coat that I
>> can tell. I really wonder if Doc J came up with these ideas, but hasn't
>> experienced them, because.....
>>
>> > the spray method will allow the mixture to go further, for those on a
>budget.
>>
>> just forget this. To use the spray method you must sedate the fish and
>> Finquel isn't cheap either, in liquid form has a storage of up to a week
>at
>> room temp, so you can get thru a treatment on the same container....
>again,
>> if the fish doesn't contaminate it with feces.
>>
>> I did this method first, pulled weakest fish out, sedated, sprayed and
>kept
>> moist for 2-3 minutes, put into wake up water, dead as a door nail. I
>> worked on it for 15 minutes with airstone all but stuck in its mouth.
>>
>> Next fish, sedated, sprayed it and 1 minute into treatment it wakes up. It
>> flipping and a flopping all over the hot tub cover. Meds & slime going all
>> over me, the hot tub cover, the house & window. It's one thing to hold a
>> fish that is wet & slimy, but when covered with this medication, there is
>> no holding it. I was lucky just to get a grip as it flipped off the edge
>of
>> the hot tub and stopped struggling. Had it continued it would have gone
>> behind the hot tub, on to the dusty cement and I would have had the devil
>> of a time getting it out from behind there. Gives me shivers just to think
>> about it. If you chose this method, sprayed it inside a tub.
>>
>> Personally though, it just not worth going thru the sedating procedure,
>> imo. Not to mention all those containers need to be very close in temp &
>> pH, or one just adds more stress.
>>
>> There is another couple in the club who feel that there might be counter
>> indications (is that the correct term?) using Finquel & Tricide-Neo. That
>> they cause an adverse reaction. Their theory is only based on a leather
>koi
>> that went thru the Finquel into the dip and came out filleted.... the wife
>> said he left it in the dip 10 minutes and the directions say no longer
>than
>> 5. So I have to verify that. Then there is my experience, but both fish
>> were pretty far along in their problems by the time I got set up and the
>> meds in the mail. Thus, if anyone else results are different, I'd like to
>> hear about it. ~ jan
>>
>> See my ponds and filter design:
>> http://users.owt.com/jjspond/
>>
>> ~Keep 'em Wet!~
>> Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
>> To e-mail see website
>


See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

[Lee Brouillet]

Hmmm. I've only worked with little fish, under 6" in 3 different labs. The
fish usually rolled over in about 3-4 minutes and could be handled easily.
When done, they were placed in a second tank with airstones running, and
they recouped in about 2 minutes. In fact, catching them to return them to
the main population was a problem, so they *definitely* felt better! We were
using 5 drops to the gallon. It's funny that you say the KHA course doesn't
exactly approve of the Oil of Clove; Doc Johnson stated that it was safer,
inasmuch as he had fish that he thought were dead from it, only to have them
revive on the trip home. He thought it was safer in "amateur" hands than
Finquel, the "vet approved" anasthesia, which is *definitely* fatal if
mishandled or overdosed. I haven't used the Finquel - maybe "one of these
days"???? so I guess it's a matter of what YOU - the person in charge! - is
most comfortable with.

Let me know how it goes with this final dip. I haven't had to use IT,
either! I have a full stock of meds in my first aid kit, but hope I never
have to use them <G>

Lee

"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
> From taking the KHA course Oil of Clove was not recommended because it
> takes longer to put them out and longer to wake them up. They did not feel
> it was as forgiving as your experience. My fish were barely knocked out.
>
> Regardless though, from my experience, Finquel just isn't necessary if one
> does the bag method. Last dip was done today, btw. Now we wait. ~ jan
>
> >On 23 Jul 2003 09:24:13 -0500, "Lee Brouillet" > wrote:
>
> >I saw your posting on another board regarding this subject. Finquel is
the
> >"vet" stuff, and much more potent. Folks I know that have done the
> >"anesthesia" route and the TriCide Neo have used Oil of Cloves, much more
> >passive and forgiving regarding dosing. Finquel dosing is, well, finicky!
A
> >little too much, and oops! - which may be the cause of the problems. Oil
of
> >Cloves is a LOT cheaper, too. And smells better! Finquel is fine for
actual
> >surgical procedures, to put the fish "under". It's also the only
anesthesia
> >allowed for food fish. But being as I'm not planning on eating my koi,
the
> >Oil of Cloves is kinda like (to draw an analogy!) the laughing gas at the
> >dentist's office: They just don't care! Both have their place: it's just
> >that I only keep Oil of Cloves on hand because I'm not planning on
> >performing surgery. It's better suited for fish that you just want to
> >handle, IMHO. I'm lucky if I can bowl any of my koi; forget about
handling
> >them without a struggle.
> >
> >Lee
> >
> >"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> >On 22 Jul 2003 07:53:04 -0500, "Lee Brouillet" >
wrote:
> >>
> >> >I hadn't thought of separating it -- duh! BTW, if you don't have one,
a
> >> >digital postal scale is a cheap way to get around the expensive gram
> >scales.
> >> >Mine does ounces or grams, including tare (so you don't include the
> >weight
> >> >of your container when you're measuring), and goes up to 5 lbs. I
think
> >it
> >> >cost about $30.00 or so. FYG, if you didn't see it anywhere, Doc J
says
> >you
> >> >can strain the mix through a coffee filter to remove excess slime and
> >fish
> >> >poo, etc. and refrigerate the mix to get about a month out of it.
> >>
> >> Course if you're still having trouble after a month...... ;o) The dip
> >seems
> >> to stay fairly clean and doesn't make the fish shed its slime coat that
I
> >> can tell. I really wonder if Doc J came up with these ideas, but hasn't
> >> experienced them, because.....
> >>
> >> > the spray method will allow the mixture to go further, for those on a
> >budget.
> >>
> >> just forget this. To use the spray method you must sedate the fish and
> >> Finquel isn't cheap either, in liquid form has a storage of up to a
week
> >at
> >> room temp, so you can get thru a treatment on the same container....
> >again,
> >> if the fish doesn't contaminate it with feces.
> >>
> >> I did this method first, pulled weakest fish out, sedated, sprayed and
> >kept
> >> moist for 2-3 minutes, put into wake up water, dead as a door nail. I
> >> worked on it for 15 minutes with airstone all but stuck in its mouth.
> >>
> >> Next fish, sedated, sprayed it and 1 minute into treatment it wakes up.
It
> >> flipping and a flopping all over the hot tub cover. Meds & slime going
all
> >> over me, the hot tub cover, the house & window. It's one thing to hold
a
> >> fish that is wet & slimy, but when covered with this medication, there
is
> >> no holding it. I was lucky just to get a grip as it flipped off the
edge
> >of
> >> the hot tub and stopped struggling. Had it continued it would have gone
> >> behind the hot tub, on to the dusty cement and I would have had the
devil
> >> of a time getting it out from behind there. Gives me shivers just to
think
> >> about it. If you chose this method, sprayed it inside a tub.
> >>
> >> Personally though, it just not worth going thru the sedating procedure,
> >> imo. Not to mention all those containers need to be very close in temp
&
> >> pH, or one just adds more stress.
> >>
> >> There is another couple in the club who feel that there might be
counter
> >> indications (is that the correct term?) using Finquel & Tricide-Neo.
That
> >> they cause an adverse reaction. Their theory is only based on a leather
> >koi
> >> that went thru the Finquel into the dip and came out filleted.... the
wife
> >> said he left it in the dip 10 minutes and the directions say no longer
> >than
> >> 5. So I have to verify that. Then there is my experience, but both fish
> >> were pretty far along in their problems by the time I got set up and
the
> >> meds in the mail. Thus, if anyone else results are different, I'd like
to
> >> hear about it. ~ jan
> >>
> >> See my ponds and filter design:
> >> http://users.owt.com/jjspond/
> >>
> >> ~Keep 'em Wet!~
> >> Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
> >> To e-mail see website
> >
>
>
> See my ponds and filter design:
> http://users.owt.com/jjspond/
>
> ~Keep 'em Wet!~
> Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
> To e-mail see website

[Lee Brouillet]

Hmmm. I've only worked with little fish, under 6" in 3 different labs. The
fish usually rolled over in about 3-4 minutes and could be handled easily.
When done, they were placed in a second tank with airstones running, and
they recouped in about 2 minutes. In fact, catching them to return them to
the main population was a problem, so they *definitely* felt better! We were
using 5 drops to the gallon. It's funny that you say the KHA course doesn't
exactly approve of the Oil of Clove; Doc Johnson stated that it was safer,
inasmuch as he had fish that he thought were dead from it, only to have them
revive on the trip home. He thought it was safer in "amateur" hands than
Finquel, the "vet approved" anasthesia, which is *definitely* fatal if
mishandled or overdosed. I haven't used the Finquel - maybe "one of these
days"???? so I guess it's a matter of what YOU - the person in charge! - is
most comfortable with.

Let me know how it goes with this final dip. I haven't had to use IT,
either! I have a full stock of meds in my first aid kit, but hope I never
have to use them <G>

Lee

"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
> From taking the KHA course Oil of Clove was not recommended because it
> takes longer to put them out and longer to wake them up. They did not feel
> it was as forgiving as your experience. My fish were barely knocked out.
>
> Regardless though, from my experience, Finquel just isn't necessary if one
> does the bag method. Last dip was done today, btw. Now we wait. ~ jan
>
> >On 23 Jul 2003 09:24:13 -0500, "Lee Brouillet" > wrote:
>
> >I saw your posting on another board regarding this subject. Finquel is
the
> >"vet" stuff, and much more potent. Folks I know that have done the
> >"anesthesia" route and the TriCide Neo have used Oil of Cloves, much more
> >passive and forgiving regarding dosing. Finquel dosing is, well, finicky!
A
> >little too much, and oops! - which may be the cause of the problems. Oil
of
> >Cloves is a LOT cheaper, too. And smells better! Finquel is fine for
actual
> >surgical procedures, to put the fish "under". It's also the only
anesthesia
> >allowed for food fish. But being as I'm not planning on eating my koi,
the
> >Oil of Cloves is kinda like (to draw an analogy!) the laughing gas at the
> >dentist's office: They just don't care! Both have their place: it's just
> >that I only keep Oil of Cloves on hand because I'm not planning on
> >performing surgery. It's better suited for fish that you just want to
> >handle, IMHO. I'm lucky if I can bowl any of my koi; forget about
handling
> >them without a struggle.
> >
> >Lee
> >
> >"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> >On 22 Jul 2003 07:53:04 -0500, "Lee Brouillet" >
wrote:
> >>
> >> >I hadn't thought of separating it -- duh! BTW, if you don't have one,
a
> >> >digital postal scale is a cheap way to get around the expensive gram
> >scales.
> >> >Mine does ounces or grams, including tare (so you don't include the
> >weight
> >> >of your container when you're measuring), and goes up to 5 lbs. I
think
> >it
> >> >cost about $30.00 or so. FYG, if you didn't see it anywhere, Doc J
says
> >you
> >> >can strain the mix through a coffee filter to remove excess slime and
> >fish
> >> >poo, etc. and refrigerate the mix to get about a month out of it.
> >>
> >> Course if you're still having trouble after a month...... ;o) The dip
> >seems
> >> to stay fairly clean and doesn't make the fish shed its slime coat that
I
> >> can tell. I really wonder if Doc J came up with these ideas, but hasn't
> >> experienced them, because.....
> >>
> >> > the spray method will allow the mixture to go further, for those on a
> >budget.
> >>
> >> just forget this. To use the spray method you must sedate the fish and
> >> Finquel isn't cheap either, in liquid form has a storage of up to a
week
> >at
> >> room temp, so you can get thru a treatment on the same container....
> >again,
> >> if the fish doesn't contaminate it with feces.
> >>
> >> I did this method first, pulled weakest fish out, sedated, sprayed and
> >kept
> >> moist for 2-3 minutes, put into wake up water, dead as a door nail. I
> >> worked on it for 15 minutes with airstone all but stuck in its mouth.
> >>
> >> Next fish, sedated, sprayed it and 1 minute into treatment it wakes up.
It
> >> flipping and a flopping all over the hot tub cover. Meds & slime going
all
> >> over me, the hot tub cover, the house & window. It's one thing to hold
a
> >> fish that is wet & slimy, but when covered with this medication, there
is
> >> no holding it. I was lucky just to get a grip as it flipped off the
edge
> >of
> >> the hot tub and stopped struggling. Had it continued it would have gone
> >> behind the hot tub, on to the dusty cement and I would have had the
devil
> >> of a time getting it out from behind there. Gives me shivers just to
think
> >> about it. If you chose this method, sprayed it inside a tub.
> >>
> >> Personally though, it just not worth going thru the sedating procedure,
> >> imo. Not to mention all those containers need to be very close in temp
&
> >> pH, or one just adds more stress.
> >>
> >> There is another couple in the club who feel that there might be
counter
> >> indications (is that the correct term?) using Finquel & Tricide-Neo.
That
> >> they cause an adverse reaction. Their theory is only based on a leather
> >koi
> >> that went thru the Finquel into the dip and came out filleted.... the
wife
> >> said he left it in the dip 10 minutes and the directions say no longer
> >than
> >> 5. So I have to verify that. Then there is my experience, but both fish
> >> were pretty far along in their problems by the time I got set up and
the
> >> meds in the mail. Thus, if anyone else results are different, I'd like
to
> >> hear about it. ~ jan
> >>
> >> See my ponds and filter design:
> >> http://users.owt.com/jjspond/
> >>
> >> ~Keep 'em Wet!~
> >> Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
> >> To e-mail see website
> >
>
>
> See my ponds and filter design:
> http://users.owt.com/jjspond/
>
> ~Keep 'em Wet!~
> Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
> To e-mail see website

[Lee Brouillet]

You should be seeing signs that the ulcer is healing by now (getting
white-ish around the edges, maybe a "film" of new skin?) Photos I've seen
indicate perhaps 25-50% healing in 2 weeks, depending on the initial size.
Everything I've read says to return the fish to his "home" after the final
treatment: usually, "home" has the best water quality, and the fish likes to
be back in its normal surroundings with its friends, so there's a
psychological benefit, also. (For those that may be reading this and
thinking that I'm anthropomorphizing, I'm not: koi are community fish and
sulk if left alone - they like company.) Of course, water quality should be
top notch (if it's your pond, I'm not worried, but if it's someone else's
pond, it needs to be emphasized). Me? I'd get some Koizyme (formerly
Lymnozyme) in there, too: you can't have too much help.

Good luck!
Lee

<snip>
"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
> >On 24 Jul 2003 08:12:11 -0500, "Lee Brouillet" > wrote:
>

> All fish in the pond are looking good too, I am wondering if I can relax
> yet?
>
> Can anyone tell me how long it might take an ucler the size of a quarter
to
> heal up? Should one wait till it is completely healed before returning
fish
> to pond with its buddies? ~ jan
>
> See my ponds and filter design:
> http://users.owt.com/jjspond/
>
> ~Keep 'em Wet!~
> Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
> To e-mail see website

[Lee Brouillet]

You should be seeing signs that the ulcer is healing by now (getting
white-ish around the edges, maybe a "film" of new skin?) Photos I've seen
indicate perhaps 25-50% healing in 2 weeks, depending on the initial size.
Everything I've read says to return the fish to his "home" after the final
treatment: usually, "home" has the best water quality, and the fish likes to
be back in its normal surroundings with its friends, so there's a
psychological benefit, also. (For those that may be reading this and
thinking that I'm anthropomorphizing, I'm not: koi are community fish and
sulk if left alone - they like company.) Of course, water quality should be
top notch (if it's your pond, I'm not worried, but if it's someone else's
pond, it needs to be emphasized). Me? I'd get some Koizyme (formerly
Lymnozyme) in there, too: you can't have too much help.

Good luck!
Lee

<snip>
"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
> >On 24 Jul 2003 08:12:11 -0500, "Lee Brouillet" > wrote:
>

> All fish in the pond are looking good too, I am wondering if I can relax
> yet?
>
> Can anyone tell me how long it might take an ucler the size of a quarter
to
> heal up? Should one wait till it is completely healed before returning
fish
> to pond with its buddies? ~ jan
>
> See my ponds and filter design:
> http://users.owt.com/jjspond/
>
> ~Keep 'em Wet!~
> Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
> To e-mail see website

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

I've got a cycled sick tank with a filter on it, so water is good and I can
maintain the salt up and feed MediKoi just to the sick fish. From what I
can see the ulcer is white. There is one under the dorsal fin that is hard
to see, it was the worst, so I'll keep an eye on it for a bit.

As far as KoiZyme, I agree! Been using it since this all started and next
year I'll be putting it in before problems arise. I'm really sold on that
stuff now. ~ jan

>On 29 Jul 2003 08:47:06 -0500, "Lee Brouillet" > wrote:

>You should be seeing signs that the ulcer is healing by now (getting
>white-ish around the edges, maybe a "film" of new skin?) Photos I've seen
>indicate perhaps 25-50% healing in 2 weeks, depending on the initial size.
>Everything I've read says to return the fish to his "home" after the final
>treatment: usually, "home" has the best water quality, and the fish likes to
>be back in its normal surroundings with its friends, so there's a
>psychological benefit, also. (For those that may be reading this and
>thinking that I'm anthropomorphizing, I'm not: koi are community fish and
>sulk if left alone - they like company.) Of course, water quality should be
>top notch (if it's your pond, I'm not worried, but if it's someone else's
>pond, it needs to be emphasized). Me? I'd get some Koizyme (formerly
>Lymnozyme) in there, too: you can't have too much help.
>
>Good luck!
>Lee
>
><snip>
>"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
>> >On 24 Jul 2003 08:12:11 -0500, "Lee Brouillet" > wrote:
>>
>
>> All fish in the pond are looking good too, I am wondering if I can relax
>> yet?
>>
>> Can anyone tell me how long it might take an ucler the size of a quarter
>to
>> heal up? Should one wait till it is completely healed before returning
>fish
>> to pond with its buddies? ~ jan
>>
>> See my ponds and filter design:
>> http://users.owt.com/jjspond/
>>
>> ~Keep 'em Wet!~
>> Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
>> To e-mail see website
>


See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

[~ jan JJsPond.us]

I've got a cycled sick tank with a filter on it, so water is good and I can
maintain the salt up and feed MediKoi just to the sick fish. From what I
can see the ulcer is white. There is one under the dorsal fin that is hard
to see, it was the worst, so I'll keep an eye on it for a bit.

As far as KoiZyme, I agree! Been using it since this all started and next
year I'll be putting it in before problems arise. I'm really sold on that
stuff now. ~ jan

>On 29 Jul 2003 08:47:06 -0500, "Lee Brouillet" > wrote:

>You should be seeing signs that the ulcer is healing by now (getting
>white-ish around the edges, maybe a "film" of new skin?) Photos I've seen
>indicate perhaps 25-50% healing in 2 weeks, depending on the initial size.
>Everything I've read says to return the fish to his "home" after the final
>treatment: usually, "home" has the best water quality, and the fish likes to
>be back in its normal surroundings with its friends, so there's a
>psychological benefit, also. (For those that may be reading this and
>thinking that I'm anthropomorphizing, I'm not: koi are community fish and
>sulk if left alone - they like company.) Of course, water quality should be
>top notch (if it's your pond, I'm not worried, but if it's someone else's
>pond, it needs to be emphasized). Me? I'd get some Koizyme (formerly
>Lymnozyme) in there, too: you can't have too much help.
>
>Good luck!
>Lee
>
><snip>
>"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
>> >On 24 Jul 2003 08:12:11 -0500, "Lee Brouillet" > wrote:
>>
>
>> All fish in the pond are looking good too, I am wondering if I can relax
>> yet?
>>
>> Can anyone tell me how long it might take an ucler the size of a quarter
>to
>> heal up? Should one wait till it is completely healed before returning
>fish
>> to pond with its buddies? ~ jan
>>
>> See my ponds and filter design:
>> http://users.owt.com/jjspond/
>>
>> ~Keep 'em Wet!~
>> Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
>> To e-mail see website
>


See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

[Lee Brouillet]

Yea Koizyme! It's cheap insurance compared to the alternative. There are
only 2 things I routinely add (weekly) to the pond: clay and Koizyme.

Lee

"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
> I've got a cycled sick tank with a filter on it, so water is good and I
can
> maintain the salt up and feed MediKoi just to the sick fish. From what I
> can see the ulcer is white. There is one under the dorsal fin that is hard
> to see, it was the worst, so I'll keep an eye on it for a bit.
>
> As far as KoiZyme, I agree! Been using it since this all started and next
> year I'll be putting it in before problems arise. I'm really sold on that
> stuff now. ~ jan
>
> >On 29 Jul 2003 08:47:06 -0500, "Lee Brouillet" > wrote:
>
> >You should be seeing signs that the ulcer is healing by now (getting
> >white-ish around the edges, maybe a "film" of new skin?) Photos I've seen
> >indicate perhaps 25-50% healing in 2 weeks, depending on the initial
size.
> >Everything I've read says to return the fish to his "home" after the
final
> >treatment: usually, "home" has the best water quality, and the fish likes
to
> >be back in its normal surroundings with its friends, so there's a
> >psychological benefit, also. (For those that may be reading this and
> >thinking that I'm anthropomorphizing, I'm not: koi are community fish and
> >sulk if left alone - they like company.) Of course, water quality should
be
> >top notch (if it's your pond, I'm not worried, but if it's someone else's
> >pond, it needs to be emphasized). Me? I'd get some Koizyme (formerly
> >Lymnozyme) in there, too: you can't have too much help.
> >
> >Good luck!
> >Lee
> >
> ><snip>
> >"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> >On 24 Jul 2003 08:12:11 -0500, "Lee Brouillet" >
wrote:
> >>
> >
> >> All fish in the pond are looking good too, I am wondering if I can
relax
> >> yet?
> >>
> >> Can anyone tell me how long it might take an ucler the size of a
quarter
> >to
> >> heal up? Should one wait till it is completely healed before returning
> >fish
> >> to pond with its buddies? ~ jan
> >>
> >> See my ponds and filter design:
> >> http://users.owt.com/jjspond/
> >>
> >> ~Keep 'em Wet!~
> >> Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
> >> To e-mail see website
> >
>
>
> See my ponds and filter design:
> http://users.owt.com/jjspond/
>
> ~Keep 'em Wet!~
> Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
> To e-mail see website

[Lee Brouillet]

Yea Koizyme! It's cheap insurance compared to the alternative. There are
only 2 things I routinely add (weekly) to the pond: clay and Koizyme.

Lee

"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
...
> I've got a cycled sick tank with a filter on it, so water is good and I
can
> maintain the salt up and feed MediKoi just to the sick fish. From what I
> can see the ulcer is white. There is one under the dorsal fin that is hard
> to see, it was the worst, so I'll keep an eye on it for a bit.
>
> As far as KoiZyme, I agree! Been using it since this all started and next
> year I'll be putting it in before problems arise. I'm really sold on that
> stuff now. ~ jan
>
> >On 29 Jul 2003 08:47:06 -0500, "Lee Brouillet" > wrote:
>
> >You should be seeing signs that the ulcer is healing by now (getting
> >white-ish around the edges, maybe a "film" of new skin?) Photos I've seen
> >indicate perhaps 25-50% healing in 2 weeks, depending on the initial
size.
> >Everything I've read says to return the fish to his "home" after the
final
> >treatment: usually, "home" has the best water quality, and the fish likes
to
> >be back in its normal surroundings with its friends, so there's a
> >psychological benefit, also. (For those that may be reading this and
> >thinking that I'm anthropomorphizing, I'm not: koi are community fish and
> >sulk if left alone - they like company.) Of course, water quality should
be
> >top notch (if it's your pond, I'm not worried, but if it's someone else's
> >pond, it needs to be emphasized). Me? I'd get some Koizyme (formerly
> >Lymnozyme) in there, too: you can't have too much help.
> >
> >Good luck!
> >Lee
> >
> ><snip>
> >"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> >On 24 Jul 2003 08:12:11 -0500, "Lee Brouillet" >
wrote:
> >>
> >
> >> All fish in the pond are looking good too, I am wondering if I can
relax
> >> yet?
> >>
> >> Can anyone tell me how long it might take an ucler the size of a
quarter
> >to
> >> heal up? Should one wait till it is completely healed before returning
> >fish
> >> to pond with its buddies? ~ jan
> >>
> >> See my ponds and filter design:
> >> http://users.owt.com/jjspond/
> >>
> >> ~Keep 'em Wet!~
> >> Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
> >> To e-mail see website
> >
>
>
> See my ponds and filter design:
> http://users.owt.com/jjspond/
>
> ~Keep 'em Wet!~
> Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
> To e-mail see website

[Nedra]

I'm ready to be scolded or flamed ... whatever! I just got
my order of KoiZyme from KoiVet. I notice that I have to
know how many gallons of water are in the pond in order to
treat it. ... and here is the problem. My health has taken a
nosedive - I can't do
anything around the pond except water changes and adding
Koi Clay, Amquel etc.
Therefore, doing the testing to see how many gallons of water are
in the pond is not possible.
Can I ball park the dosage of KoiZyme - you know, treat
the pond using 2,000 gallons instead of a real number?
I thought the pond was a 3,000 gallons but now I'm not sure.

Nedra

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118
"Lee Brouillet" > wrote in message
...
> Yea Koizyme! It's cheap insurance compared to the alternative. There are
> only 2 things I routinely add (weekly) to the pond: clay and Koizyme.
>
> Lee
>
> "~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I've got a cycled sick tank with a filter on it, so water is good and I
> can
> > maintain the salt up and feed MediKoi just to the sick fish. From what I
> > can see the ulcer is white. There is one under the dorsal fin that is
hard
> > to see, it was the worst, so I'll keep an eye on it for a bit.
> >
> > As far as KoiZyme, I agree! Been using it since this all started and
next
> > year I'll be putting it in before problems arise. I'm really sold on
that
> > stuff now. ~ jan
> >
> > >On 29 Jul 2003 08:47:06 -0500, "Lee Brouillet" > wrote:
> >
> > >You should be seeing signs that the ulcer is healing by now (getting
> > >white-ish around the edges, maybe a "film" of new skin?) Photos I've
seen
> > >indicate perhaps 25-50% healing in 2 weeks, depending on the initial
> size.
> > >Everything I've read says to return the fish to his "home" after the
> final
> > >treatment: usually, "home" has the best water quality, and the fish
likes
> to
> > >be back in its normal surroundings with its friends, so there's a
> > >psychological benefit, also. (For those that may be reading this and
> > >thinking that I'm anthropomorphizing, I'm not: koi are community fish
and
> > >sulk if left alone - they like company.) Of course, water quality
should
> be
> > >top notch (if it's your pond, I'm not worried, but if it's someone
else's
> > >pond, it needs to be emphasized). Me? I'd get some Koizyme (formerly
> > >Lymnozyme) in there, too: you can't have too much help.
> > >
> > >Good luck!
> > >Lee
> > >
> > ><snip>
> > >"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >> >On 24 Jul 2003 08:12:11 -0500, "Lee Brouillet" >
> wrote:
> > >>
> > >
> > >> All fish in the pond are looking good too, I am wondering if I can
> relax
> > >> yet?
> > >>
> > >> Can anyone tell me how long it might take an ucler the size of a
> quarter
> > >to
> > >> heal up? Should one wait till it is completely healed before
returning
> > >fish
> > >> to pond with its buddies? ~ jan
> > >>
> > >> See my ponds and filter design:
> > >> http://users.owt.com/jjspond/
> > >>
> > >> ~Keep 'em Wet!~
> > >> Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
> > >> To e-mail see website
> > >
> >
> >
> > See my ponds and filter design:
> > http://users.owt.com/jjspond/
> >
> > ~Keep 'em Wet!~
> > Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
> > To e-mail see website
>
>
>

[K30a]

Nedra wrote
<< My health has taken a
nosedive >>

This isn't good!
I haven't been paying attention to
the KoiZyme thread but hopefully
someone can give you a short cut or
estimate method.
Be well!


k30a
yearly brother website posting
http://www.30acreimaging.com/

[RichToyBox]

Nedra,

Googling your pond size, posts show it to be 3000 gallons plus. As John
said, if you are having problems, double the dose. Other than the wallet,
it does not hurt anything, and really does help. I would not under dose. I
have had some problems pop up, even with regular dosing, and had to increase
to double.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html


"Nedra" > wrote in message
thlink.net...
> I'm ready to be scolded or flamed ... whatever! I just got
> my order of KoiZyme from KoiVet. I notice that I have to
> know how many gallons of water are in the pond in order to
> treat it. ... and here is the problem. My health has taken a
> nosedive - I can't do
> anything around the pond except water changes and adding
> Koi Clay, Amquel etc.
> Therefore, doing the testing to see how many gallons of water are
> in the pond is not possible.
> Can I ball park the dosage of KoiZyme - you know, treat
> the pond using 2,000 gallons instead of a real number?
> I thought the pond was a 3,000 gallons but now I'm not sure.
>
> Nedra
>
> http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
> http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118
> "Lee Brouillet" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Yea Koizyme! It's cheap insurance compared to the alternative. There are
> > only 2 things I routinely add (weekly) to the pond: clay and Koizyme.
> >
> > Lee
> >
> > "~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > I've got a cycled sick tank with a filter on it, so water is good and
I
> > can
> > > maintain the salt up and feed MediKoi just to the sick fish. From what
I
> > > can see the ulcer is white. There is one under the dorsal fin that is
> hard
> > > to see, it was the worst, so I'll keep an eye on it for a bit.
> > >
> > > As far as KoiZyme, I agree! Been using it since this all started and
> next
> > > year I'll be putting it in before problems arise. I'm really sold on
> that
> > > stuff now. ~ jan
> > >
> > > >On 29 Jul 2003 08:47:06 -0500, "Lee Brouillet" >
wrote:
> > >
> > > >You should be seeing signs that the ulcer is healing by now (getting
> > > >white-ish around the edges, maybe a "film" of new skin?) Photos I've
> seen
> > > >indicate perhaps 25-50% healing in 2 weeks, depending on the initial
> > size.
> > > >Everything I've read says to return the fish to his "home" after the
> > final
> > > >treatment: usually, "home" has the best water quality, and the fish
> likes
> > to
> > > >be back in its normal surroundings with its friends, so there's a
> > > >psychological benefit, also. (For those that may be reading this and
> > > >thinking that I'm anthropomorphizing, I'm not: koi are community fish
> and
> > > >sulk if left alone - they like company.) Of course, water quality
> should
> > be
> > > >top notch (if it's your pond, I'm not worried, but if it's someone
> else's
> > > >pond, it needs to be emphasized). Me? I'd get some Koizyme (formerly
> > > >Lymnozyme) in there, too: you can't have too much help.
> > > >
> > > >Good luck!
> > > >Lee
> > > >
> > > ><snip>
> > > >"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >> >On 24 Jul 2003 08:12:11 -0500, "Lee Brouillet" >
> > wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >> All fish in the pond are looking good too, I am wondering if I can
> > relax
> > > >> yet?
> > > >>
> > > >> Can anyone tell me how long it might take an ucler the size of a
> > quarter
> > > >to
> > > >> heal up? Should one wait till it is completely healed before
> returning
> > > >fish
> > > >> to pond with its buddies? ~ jan
> > > >>
> > > >> See my ponds and filter design:
> > > >> http://users.owt.com/jjspond/
> > > >>
> > > >> ~Keep 'em Wet!~
> > > >> Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
> > > >> To e-mail see website
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > See my ponds and filter design:
> > > http://users.owt.com/jjspond/
> > >
> > > ~Keep 'em Wet!~
> > > Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
> > > To e-mail see website
> >
> >
> >
>
>

[johnrutz]

Nedra wrote:
> I'm ready to be scolded or flamed ... whatever! I just got
> my order of KoiZyme from KoiVet. I notice that I have to
> know how many gallons of water are in the pond in order to
> treat it. ... and here is the problem. My health has taken a
> nosedive - I can't do
> anything around the pond except water changes and adding
> Koi Clay, Amquel etc.
> Therefore, doing the testing to see how many gallons of water are
> in the pond is not possible.
> Can I ball park the dosage of KoiZyme - you know, treat
> the pond using 2,000 gallons instead of a real number?
> I thought the pond was a 3,000 gallons but now I'm not sure.
>
> Nedra
from Doc Johnson

Q: I currently have a Aeromonas problem, should I increase the Koizyme
dosage and is that safe to do?

A: We strongly recommend that you double the dosage rate if you have a
existing Aeromonas problem. By doubling the dosage rate, you will speed
up the rate that the Koizyme will consume the bad "nutrients" from the
pond water, thus starving out the Aeromonas sooner.

It is almost impossible to overdose with Koizyme. I have dosed my
hospital tank, with 9 Koi in it, at the rate of 200ml (over 6 oz.)/1,000
gallons for a period of three weeks with no affect on the fish or the
biofilter. Also, by increasing the dosage rate during an existing
Aeromonas problem, Koizyme bacteria will displace the Aeromonas bacteria
off the ulcer or infected area of the fish.

You will see the infected area start to "white over" soon after
treatment is started. BUT, let me say this, if the ulcer is in an
advanced state (into the "meat" of the fish), you should treat that fish
with antibiotics because most likely that Aeromonas bacteria has gotten
into it's bloodstream.

John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

never miss a good oportunity to shut up

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

[Nedra]

Thanks Rich and John....

taking a big sigh of relief.

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"johnrutz" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Nedra wrote:
> > I'm ready to be scolded or flamed ... whatever! I just got
> > my order of KoiZyme from KoiVet. I notice that I have to
> > know how many gallons of water are in the pond in order to
> > treat it. ... and here is the problem. My health has taken a
> > nosedive - I can't do
> > anything around the pond except water changes and adding
> > Koi Clay, Amquel etc.
> > Therefore, doing the testing to see how many gallons of water are
> > in the pond is not possible.
> > Can I ball park the dosage of KoiZyme - you know, treat
> > the pond using 2,000 gallons instead of a real number?
> > I thought the pond was a 3,000 gallons but now I'm not sure.
> >
> > Nedra
> from Doc Johnson
>
> Q: I currently have a Aeromonas problem, should I increase the Koizyme
> dosage and is that safe to do?
>
> A: We strongly recommend that you double the dosage rate if you have a
> existing Aeromonas problem. By doubling the dosage rate, you will speed
> up the rate that the Koizyme will consume the bad "nutrients" from the
> pond water, thus starving out the Aeromonas sooner.
>
> It is almost impossible to overdose with Koizyme. I have dosed my
> hospital tank, with 9 Koi in it, at the rate of 200ml (over 6 oz.)/1,000
> gallons for a period of three weeks with no affect on the fish or the
> biofilter. Also, by increasing the dosage rate during an existing
> Aeromonas problem, Koizyme bacteria will displace the Aeromonas bacteria
> off the ulcer or infected area of the fish.
>
> You will see the infected area start to "white over" soon after
> treatment is started. BUT, let me say this, if the ulcer is in an
> advanced state (into the "meat" of the fish), you should treat that fish
> with antibiotics because most likely that Aeromonas bacteria has gotten
> into it's bloodstream.
>
> John Rutz
> Z5 New Mexico
>
> never miss a good oportunity to shut up
>
> see my pond at:
>
> http://www.fuerjefe.com
>
>

[Lee Brouillet]

Sorry to hear you're not feeling well, Nedra. Hope you improve shortly! As
others have stated, it's nearly impossible to overdose on Koizyme. They're
bioengineered bacteria, and if they don't have a food source, they simply
die. They're programmed to die (anyway) in 3 days, which is why you have to
treat every 3 days in the beginning, then once a week for maintenance. If
your pond "calculates" to 3,000 gallons or so, it's a pretty safe bet that
it's actually less. Initially, I'd treat it as if it's 3,000; once you get
to the maintenance level, try 2,000 gallons. I usually just shake up the
bottle and pour a quick "glunk" in the pond. Remember to keep it
refrigerated: the biobugs will hibernate and last longer than if the bottle
is room temp. And NEVER let it get hot! You won't have to use it during the
winter when the water cools, but it is *imperative* that you start using it
as soon as the water gets into the 50's to prevent the aeromonas/pseudomonas
(ulcer-causing bacteria) from getting a start on the fish before their
immune system kicks in.

Hope you feel better!

Lee

"Nedra" > wrote in message
thlink.net...
> I'm ready to be scolded or flamed ... whatever! I just got
> my order of KoiZyme from KoiVet. I notice that I have to
> know how many gallons of water are in the pond in order to
> treat it. ... and here is the problem. My health has taken a
> nosedive - I can't do
> anything around the pond except water changes and adding
> Koi Clay, Amquel etc.
> Therefore, doing the testing to see how many gallons of water are
> in the pond is not possible.
> Can I ball park the dosage of KoiZyme - you know, treat
> the pond using 2,000 gallons instead of a real number?
> I thought the pond was a 3,000 gallons but now I'm not sure.
>
> Nedra
>
> http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
> http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118
> "Lee Brouillet" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Yea Koizyme! It's cheap insurance compared to the alternative. There are
> > only 2 things I routinely add (weekly) to the pond: clay and Koizyme.
> >
> > Lee
> >
> > "~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > I've got a cycled sick tank with a filter on it, so water is good and
I
> > can
> > > maintain the salt up and feed MediKoi just to the sick fish. From what
I
> > > can see the ulcer is white. There is one under the dorsal fin that is
> hard
> > > to see, it was the worst, so I'll keep an eye on it for a bit.
> > >
> > > As far as KoiZyme, I agree! Been using it since this all started and
> next
> > > year I'll be putting it in before problems arise. I'm really sold on
> that
> > > stuff now. ~ jan
> > >
> > > >On 29 Jul 2003 08:47:06 -0500, "Lee Brouillet" >
wrote:
> > >
> > > >You should be seeing signs that the ulcer is healing by now (getting
> > > >white-ish around the edges, maybe a "film" of new skin?) Photos I've
> seen
> > > >indicate perhaps 25-50% healing in 2 weeks, depending on the initial
> > size.
> > > >Everything I've read says to return the fish to his "home" after the
> > final
> > > >treatment: usually, "home" has the best water quality, and the fish
> likes
> > to
> > > >be back in its normal surroundings with its friends, so there's a
> > > >psychological benefit, also. (For those that may be reading this and
> > > >thinking that I'm anthropomorphizing, I'm not: koi are community fish
> and
> > > >sulk if left alone - they like company.) Of course, water quality
> should
> > be
> > > >top notch (if it's your pond, I'm not worried, but if it's someone
> else's
> > > >pond, it needs to be emphasized). Me? I'd get some Koizyme (formerly
> > > >Lymnozyme) in there, too: you can't have too much help.
> > > >
> > > >Good luck!
> > > >Lee
> > > >
> > > ><snip>
> > > >"~ jan JJsPond.us" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >> >On 24 Jul 2003 08:12:11 -0500, "Lee Brouillet" >
> > wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >> All fish in the pond are looking good too, I am wondering if I can
> > relax
> > > >> yet?
> > > >>
> > > >> Can anyone tell me how long it might take an ucler the size of a
> > quarter
> > > >to
> > > >> heal up? Should one wait till it is completely healed before
> returning
> > > >fish
> > > >> to pond with its buddies? ~ jan
> > > >>
> > > >> See my ponds and filter design:
> > > >> http://users.owt.com/jjspond/
> > > >>
> > > >> ~Keep 'em Wet!~
> > > >> Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
> > > >> To e-mail see website
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > See my ponds and filter design:
> > > http://users.owt.com/jjspond/
> > >
> > > ~Keep 'em Wet!~
> > > Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
> > > To e-mail see website
> >
> >
> >
>
>

[pixi]

If you run to West Virginia for any length of time be sure to go west of
Grant County. This year we are getting lots of rain but usually we get very
little. And if you are a gardener, the soil is awful!!

Oh to be back in Michigan!!!
"FBCS" > wrote in message
...
> Not me!
> We are Marylanders and are always running to West VA.
> "K30a" > wrote in message
> ...
> > BV wrote >>All of my in-laws now live in MD, as of two weeks ago. I
think
> what
> > you are
> > saying is I am actually dead?<<
> >
> > So Heaven is in Maryland, who'da thought?
> > ;-)
> >
> >
> > k30a
>
>