Unethical business practices.....

[Wilson]

I recently bought a 5.5' x 15' liner from justliners.com to build my
waterfall and was pleased to say the least with the price($23.95 + shipping
$8.00 UPS), it was delivered in approx. 4 days and the quality is more than
I expected.

A week or two before I visited my local (I wouldn't call them a pond supply
store), more of a rock/paver/statuary/but we also order pond supplies from
Aquascape kind of place....went in and asked her to get me prices on a
liner,pump and rocks.....2 weeks later! she calls me back after I already
had finished my waterfall and gives me prices on a liner: 4'x8'
45mil-$96.00!! I told her basically that she had rocks in her head and that
I now understood why nobody even knew of this place even though it had been
open since last October....and that she would never get a dime from me. What
I imagine she was doing is charging me for a roll of liner and cutting my
piece from it.

What I've learned so far about buying supplies for ponds is you must look
around, most places prices are way out of wack on most thing...example: I
visited a pond supplier in a nearby town that carried barley(my mom wanted
me to pick her up some for her pond) $45.00 for what amounted to a 1/2
pillow size bag of barley! Unreal.

I've only checked a few places and websites so far but I'd have to say that
justliners.com is probably the best and cheapest place to go.

My .02 Just felt like venting....sorry, we now return you to your regular
programming.

~Wilson~

[joe]

Wilson wrote:

> What I've learned so far about buying supplies for ponds is you must look
> around, most places prices are way out of wack on most thing...example: I
> visited a pond supplier in a nearby town that carried barley(my mom wanted
> me to pick her up some for her pond) $45.00 for what amounted to a 1/2
> pillow size bag of barley! Unreal.
>
> I've only checked a few places and websites so far but I'd have to say that
> justliners.com is probably the best and cheapest place to go.


Yup. Caveat emptor. It's amazing to me that in an age when you can find
pretty much the best price on any item (even after shipping) on the
internet, people are still willing to just plunk down their hard earned cash
for over priced stuff.

Just my 2 cents.

Joe



-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

[*muffin*]

of, course there are people who will pay that much!!!
they are the ones who think they are too good to step inside a k-mart! &
only do their shopping in high-priced stores
(I just cannot get over some people would rather pay $50. for a blender HERE
than $25 for the same one at k-mart........



"joe" > wrote in message
...
> Wilson wrote:
>
> > What I've learned so far about buying supplies for ponds is you must
look
> > around, most places prices are way out of wack on most thing...example:
I
> > visited a pond supplier in a nearby town that carried barley(my mom
wanted
> > me to pick her up some for her pond) $45.00 for what amounted to a 1/2
> > pillow size bag of barley! Unreal.
> >
> > I've only checked a few places and websites so far but I'd have to say
that
> > justliners.com is probably the best and cheapest place to go.
>
>
> Yup. Caveat emptor. It's amazing to me that in an age when you can find
> pretty much the best price on any item (even after shipping) on the
> internet, people are still willing to just plunk down their hard earned
cash
> for over priced stuff.
>
> Just my 2 cents.
>
> Joe
>
>
>
> -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

[BenignVanilla]

"joe" > wrote in message
...
> Wilson wrote:
>
> > What I've learned so far about buying supplies for ponds is you must
look
> > around, most places prices are way out of wack on most thing...example:
I
> > visited a pond supplier in a nearby town that carried barley(my mom
wanted
> > me to pick her up some for her pond) $45.00 for what amounted to a 1/2
> > pillow size bag of barley! Unreal.
> >
> > I've only checked a few places and websites so far but I'd have to say
that
> > justliners.com is probably the best and cheapest place to go.
>
>
> Yup. Caveat emptor. It's amazing to me that in an age when you can find
> pretty much the best price on any item (even after shipping) on the
> internet, people are still willing to just plunk down their hard earned
cash
> for over priced stuff.
>
> Just my 2 cents.

I was thinking about this thread last night, as I was shopping on line. I
need a hitch for my mini-van, and I need it fast. I can get a good deal
on-line, but I don't think they can ship it fast enough, so I may be faced
with doing it brick and mortar style, with nasal style payments. It occurred
to me last night, when I was surfing, that sometimes, those on-line deals
are just out of reach.

BV.

[John Hines]

"BenignVanilla" > wrote:

>"joe" > wrote in message
...
>> Wilson wrote:
>>
>> > What I've learned so far about buying supplies for ponds is you must
>look
>> > around, most places prices are way out of wack on most thing...example:
>I
>> > visited a pond supplier in a nearby town that carried barley(my mom
>wanted
>> > me to pick her up some for her pond) $45.00 for what amounted to a 1/2
>> > pillow size bag of barley! Unreal.
>> >
>> > I've only checked a few places and websites so far but I'd have to say
>that
>> > justliners.com is probably the best and cheapest place to go.
>>
>>
>> Yup. Caveat emptor. It's amazing to me that in an age when you can find
>> pretty much the best price on any item (even after shipping) on the
>> internet, people are still willing to just plunk down their hard earned
>cash
>> for over priced stuff.
>>
>> Just my 2 cents.
>
>I was thinking about this thread last night, as I was shopping on line. I
>need a hitch for my mini-van, and I need it fast. I can get a good deal
>on-line, but I don't think they can ship it fast enough, so I may be faced
>with doing it brick and mortar style, with nasal style payments. It occurred
>to me last night, when I was surfing, that sometimes, those on-line deals
>are just out of reach.

Just go get one, at a local place that also installs them. Unless your
really mechanical, don't risk your life. Don't forget that you'll need
to have an electrical hook up for the trailer lights.

The place by me is a small shop, selling nothing but hitches, for over
20 years, I got one installed on my car as a teen so I could haul stuff
for the family vacation.

[BenignVanilla]

"John Hines" > wrote in message
...
<snip>
> Just go get one, at a local place that also installs them. Unless your
> really mechanical, don't risk your life. Don't forget that you'll need
> to have an electrical hook up for the trailer lights.
>
> The place by me is a small shop, selling nothing but hitches, for over
> 20 years, I got one installed on my car as a teen so I could haul stuff
> for the family vacation.

I have a friend that will professionally install it for me, but I need to
buy it first. I will probably never tow anything with it. I just want to put
one of those shelves on the back for camping.

I can't find a local hitch place. Any thoughts on how to find one?

BV.

[BenignVanilla]

"BenignVanilla" > wrote in message
...
> "John Hines" > wrote in message
> ...
> <snip>
> > Just go get one, at a local place that also installs them. Unless your
> > really mechanical, don't risk your life. Don't forget that you'll need
> > to have an electrical hook up for the trailer lights.
> >
> > The place by me is a small shop, selling nothing but hitches, for over
> > 20 years, I got one installed on my car as a teen so I could haul stuff
> > for the family vacation.
>
> I have a friend that will professionally install it for me, but I need to
> buy it first. I will probably never tow anything with it. I just want to
put
> one of those shelves on the back for camping.
>
> I can't find a local hitch place. Any thoughts on how to find one?

Gave it one more try, and found a hitch not to far away. I will pick it up
Monday!

BV.

[skooch]

Hey BV

I thought you lived around "Baltmore". From the sounds of all your
problems getting things UD think you lived the "backwoods" and a trip to
town was a weekly event and 40 miles away.

Did you ever get your potash? (0-0-50)

My local farm co-op dad (20) 5# bags on the shelf today, when I went for
mine.

If you need it what say we trade some of your Duckweed,. I can't find it
around here, every body seems to sell only Azolla.

/\/\ike

BenignVanilla wrote:
> "BenignVanilla" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>"John Hines" > wrote in message
...
>><snip>
>>
>>>Just go get one, at a local place that also installs them. Unless your
>>>really mechanical, don't risk your life. Don't forget that you'll need
>>>to have an electrical hook up for the trailer lights.
>>>
>>>The place by me is a small shop, selling nothing but hitches, for over
>>>20 years, I got one installed on my car as a teen so I could haul stuff
>>>for the family vacation.
>>
>>I have a friend that will professionally install it for me, but I need to
>>buy it first. I will probably never tow anything with it. I just want to
>
> put
>
>>one of those shelves on the back for camping.
>>
>>I can't find a local hitch place. Any thoughts on how to find one?
>
>
> Gave it one more try, and found a hitch not to far away. I will pick it up
> Monday!
>
> BV.
>
>

[Cybe R. Wizard]

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 18:49:43 +0000 (UTC)
(Kelly E Jones) wrote:

> in no case is it unethical. If this is unethical, so are all
> purveyors of bottled water (they buy it for about $0.0001 per bottle,
> and sell it for $0.99 a bottle!), pet rocks, and

< /Windows operating systems/ >.

Two out of three ain't bad!

Cybe
registered GNU/Linux user #126326

[Wilson]

Kelly E Jones > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Wilson > wrote:
>
>
> >> I also disagree with your title - there is nothing unethical in a
> >> shopkeeper trying to make a profit. If she doesn't, she won't be in
> >> business very long.
> >
> >You have every right to disagree....I have every right to point out your
> >mistake.
> >
> >She won't be in business long trying to cheat customers and lying by
> >ommission either.
>
> Look, you asked for a quote, and she gave you one. Granted, the quote
> was way high, and late. That doesn't make her unethical, though it
> probably makes her a bad businessperson. She has the right to charge
> anything she wants; you have the right to accept or decline the offer.
> If the price is way high she's either shrewd (if someone actually
> pays that price) or dumb (if it puts her out of consideration), but
> in no case is it unethical. If this is unethical, so are all purveyors of
> bottled water (they buy it for about $0.0001 per bottle, and sell it
> for $0.99 a bottle!), pet rocks, and Windows operating systems.

Unethical: not conforming to approved standards of social or professional
behavior.

I realize that anyone can read anything into that they choose, but I'd say
lying to a customer would foot that bill.

The problem with your theory is that I asked her for a price on a certain
size liner....she told me she would call and get a price on that size liner,
she never told me that I had to purchase an entire roll or that I was
supplying her store with inventory. Your comparison of Evian or pet rocks is
flawed because we all know what and how much of it we are buying....and how
stupid we are for doing it, I see the price of Evian and I pick up a bottle
anyway BUT if the clerk charges me 5 bucks for the bottle then grabs the 4
extra bottles and resells them.....that is an unfair business practice.

Believe it or not there is a differece between a liner company selling all
their 4x8 liners for 96.00 and what this moron tried to do. One is greed or
a nice tidy profit....one is a lie.


> There are enough businesses out there which really ARE unethical, that
> we should reserve the term for them, and refrain from libeling those
> who are merely incompetent.

Which businesses might those be Kelly? Would you give us examples?

Oh btw, to be libel the statement in writing should be false :) and "must"
be public and "must" damage(or attempt to) someone's character. Right?
Tell me Kelly, what is the name of the person or business I am referring to?


~Wilson~

[Nedra]

not that anyone asked ... but I Vote with Wilson.
Unethical.

Nedra

"Wilson" > wrote in message
...
>
> Kelly E Jones > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >,
> > Wilson > wrote:
> >
> >
> > >> I also disagree with your title - there is nothing unethical in a
> > >> shopkeeper trying to make a profit. If she doesn't, she won't be in
> > >> business very long.
> > >
> > >You have every right to disagree....I have every right to point out
your
> > >mistake.
> > >
> > >She won't be in business long trying to cheat customers and lying by
> > >ommission either.
> >
> > Look, you asked for a quote, and she gave you one. Granted, the quote
> > was way high, and late. That doesn't make her unethical, though it
> > probably makes her a bad businessperson. She has the right to charge
> > anything she wants; you have the right to accept or decline the offer.
> > If the price is way high she's either shrewd (if someone actually
> > pays that price) or dumb (if it puts her out of consideration), but
> > in no case is it unethical. If this is unethical, so are all purveyors
of
> > bottled water (they buy it for about $0.0001 per bottle, and sell it
> > for $0.99 a bottle!), pet rocks, and Windows operating systems.
>
> Unethical: not conforming to approved standards of social or professional
> behavior.
>
> I realize that anyone can read anything into that they choose, but I'd
say
> lying to a customer would foot that bill.
>
> The problem with your theory is that I asked her for a price on a certain
> size liner....she told me she would call and get a price on that size
liner,
> she never told me that I had to purchase an entire roll or that I was
> supplying her store with inventory. Your comparison of Evian or pet rocks
is
> flawed because we all know what and how much of it we are buying....and
how
> stupid we are for doing it, I see the price of Evian and I pick up a
bottle
> anyway BUT if the clerk charges me 5 bucks for the bottle then grabs the 4
> extra bottles and resells them.....that is an unfair business practice.
>
> Believe it or not there is a differece between a liner company selling all
> their 4x8 liners for 96.00 and what this moron tried to do. One is greed
or
> a nice tidy profit....one is a lie.
>
>
> > There are enough businesses out there which really ARE unethical, that
> > we should reserve the term for them, and refrain from libeling those
> > who are merely incompetent.
>
> Which businesses might those be Kelly? Would you give us examples?
>
> Oh btw, to be libel the statement in writing should be false :) and
"must"
> be public and "must" damage(or attempt to) someone's character. Right?
> Tell me Kelly, what is the name of the person or business I am referring
to?
>
>
> ~Wilson~
>
>
>
>

[Wilson]

"Nedra" > wrote in message
link.net...
> not that anyone asked ... but I Vote with Wilson.
> Unethical.
>
> Nedra

Ty Nedra.

Phew! I thought nobody was going to take my side :P and it was going to
turn into a flame war............sit down Just Me "Koi"! :)

I do however see where PlainBill and Kelly are coming from, buyer beware and
if not you just overpaid but there has to be boundaries. A lie is a lie is a
lie.

~Wilson~

[Tom La Bron]

Hey Folks,

It is typical. I have a small soap business and I am on several listservs
and people are always selling stuff in a "CO-OP" fashion or a "Fast-Buy"
situation. What is interesting is the the price offered can almost always
be beat almost anywhere on the internet even with S&H, but in many cases
most people don't want to deal the a "Business Organization" but will pay
more (after fees and S&H) for the priveledge to deal with an individual from
the listserv. From what I have ascertained over the years is that people
do get the shaft about as much as dealing with a business.

People feel safer, walking in to a store down the street or near by that
dealing with someone/business on the internet. Plus, business dictates rule
a small business. As an example, I just bought the pistol air pump from
drsfostersmith.com for $46. The LFS, the owner who is a friend, I checked
with him first and his cost was higher than what I got it for plus S&H that
I paid. Of course the only person he sells these pumps to is the University
in the area and they just say buy this pump for me and bills us. Well, with
his costs and markup the cost is about $90.

Small businesses that can not buy in volume are stuck at paying a lot higher
prices for single items or special order items and the same items bought by
big companies are a lot cheaper because of the volume of the total purchase
or the number of items purchased.

So You should not be too hard on the people who are trying to give a
service to the local community. There are always going to be people that
want to have face to face contact with the people that they are dealing with
and if the local business is fair and honest with their customers they will
make it, but if they don't what they are doing and give bad advice and/or
wrong equipment they won't last very long.

It is hard to be local business person giving service to the community.

Tom L.L.
"*muffin*" > wrote in message
...
> of, course there are people who will pay that much!!!
> they are the ones who think they are too good to step inside a k-mart! &
> only do their shopping in high-priced stores
> (I just cannot get over some people would rather pay $50. for a blender
HERE
> than $25 for the same one at k-mart........
>
>
>
> "joe" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Wilson wrote:
> >
> > > What I've learned so far about buying supplies for ponds is you must
> look
> > > around, most places prices are way out of wack on most
thing...example:
> I
> > > visited a pond supplier in a nearby town that carried barley(my mom
> wanted
> > > me to pick her up some for her pond) $45.00 for what amounted to a
1/2
> > > pillow size bag of barley! Unreal.
> > >
> > > I've only checked a few places and websites so far but I'd have to say
> that
> > > justliners.com is probably the best and cheapest place to go.
> >
> >
> > Yup. Caveat emptor. It's amazing to me that in an age when you can find
> > pretty much the best price on any item (even after shipping) on the
> > internet, people are still willing to just plunk down their hard earned
> cash
> > for over priced stuff.
> >
> > Just my 2 cents.
> >
> > Joe
> >
> >
> >
> > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
>
>

[Cybe R. Wizard]

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 14:07:37 -0600
john rutz > wrote:

>
>
> Cybe R. Wizard wrote:
> > On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 18:49:43 +0000 (UTC)
> > (Kelly E Jones) wrote:
> >
> >
> >>in no case is it unethical. If this is unethical, so are all
> >>purveyors of bottled water (they buy it for about $0.0001 per
> >bottle,>and sell it for $0.99 a bottle!), pet rocks, and
> >
> >
> > < /Windows operating systems/ >.
> >
> > Two out of three ain't bad!
> >
> > Cybe
> > registered GNU/Linux user #126326
>
> the penquin rules
>
Yep, so much so that I've been thinking about getting a nice
refrigeration unit to freeze one of my ponds. I could have a whole
flock of 'em! ;-}

Cybe -silly about his OS

[Kelly E Jones]

In article >,
Wilson > wrote:
>
>Kelly E Jones > wrote in message
...
>> In article >,
>> Wilson > wrote:

> I realize that anyone can read anything into that they choose, but I'd say
>lying to a customer would foot that bill.
>
>The problem with your theory is that I asked her for a price on a certain
>size liner....she told me she would call and get a price on that size liner,
>she never told me that I had to purchase an entire roll or that I was
>supplying her store with inventory.

She's not forcing you to purchase an entire roll (if she is, that's
new information, you've never stated that before). Just because her
price is equal to what you would pay for an entire roll elsewhere,
doesn't mean that's how whe set her price. Even if she is, that's
STILL not unethical. Doesn't the grocery store 'force' you to
purchase an entire loaf of bread? Lots of places have minimum
purchase requirements, ESPECIALLY for special orders. Frankly, I don't
see how she's lied to you: she said she'd give you a price, and she
did.

[Anne Lurie]

I must differ with this one part of Tom LaBron's post:

"People feel safer, walking in to a store down the street or near by that
dealing with someone/business on the internet."

Admittedly, I got into the Amazon.com habit when we lived in northern
Vermont, where there was actually quite a bit of stuff we couldn't find
nearby. And then, we really learned to love Amazon because my CPA hubby
could order the specialized books he needs, but that no bookstore would be
likely to sell ($50-90 with no guaranteed market).

I suppose that I might feel "safer" (or more trusting) if I could go to a
store "down the street" but the only thing less than a 10-minute drive
(one-way) is a gas station & hairdresser. Soooo...... to make my point, I
buy online all the time (just as I ordered from catalogues for 20 years
before that, *especially* for Christmas presents, as life is too short for
me to box up stuff & stand in line at the post office).

Just my $.02,

Anne Lurie
[just outside] Raleigh, NC



"Tom La Bron" > wrote in message
...
> Hey Folks,
>
> It is typical. I have a small soap business and I am on several listservs
> and people are always selling stuff in a "CO-OP" fashion or a "Fast-Buy"
> situation. What is interesting is the the price offered can almost always
> be beat almost anywhere on the internet even with S&H, but in many cases
> most people don't want to deal the a "Business Organization" but will pay
> more (after fees and S&H) for the priveledge to deal with an individual
from
> the listserv. From what I have ascertained over the years is that people
> do get the shaft about as much as dealing with a business.
>
> People feel safer, walking in to a store down the street or near by that
> dealing with someone/business on the internet. Plus, business dictates
rule
> a small business. As an example, I just bought the pistol air pump from
> drsfostersmith.com for $46. The LFS, the owner who is a friend, I checked
> with him first and his cost was higher than what I got it for plus S&H
that
> I paid. Of course the only person he sells these pumps to is the
University
> in the area and they just say buy this pump for me and bills us. Well,
with
> his costs and markup the cost is about $90.
>
> Small businesses that can not buy in volume are stuck at paying a lot
higher
> prices for single items or special order items and the same items bought
by
> big companies are a lot cheaper because of the volume of the total
purchase
> or the number of items purchased.
>
> So You should not be too hard on the people who are trying to give a
> service to the local community. There are always going to be people that
> want to have face to face contact with the people that they are dealing
with
> and if the local business is fair and honest with their customers they
will
> make it, but if they don't what they are doing and give bad advice and/or
> wrong equipment they won't last very long.
>
> It is hard to be local business person giving service to the community.
>
> Tom L.L.
> "*muffin*" > wrote in message
> ...
> > of, course there are people who will pay that much!!!
> > they are the ones who think they are too good to step inside a k-mart! &
> > only do their shopping in high-priced stores
> > (I just cannot get over some people would rather pay $50. for a blender
> HERE
> > than $25 for the same one at k-mart........
> >
> >
> >
> > "joe" > wrote in message
> > ...[i]
> > > Wilson wrote:
> > >
> > > > What I've learned so far about buying supplies for ponds is you must
> > look
> > > > around, most places prices are way out of wack on most
> thing...example:
> > I
> > > > visited a pond supplier in a nearby town that carried barley(my mom
> > wanted
> > > > me to pick her up some for her pond) $45.00 for what amounted to a
> 1/2
> > > > pillow size bag of barley! Unreal.
> > > >
> > > > I've only checked a few places and websites so far but I'd have to
say
> > that
> > > > justliners.com is probably the best and cheapest place to go.
> > >
> > >
> > > Yup. Caveat emptor. It's amazing to me that in an age when you can
find
> > > pretty much the best price on any item (even after shipping) on the
> > > internet, people are still willing to just plunk down their hard
earned
> > cash
> > > for over priced stuff.
> > >
> > > Just my 2 cents.
> > >
> > > Joe
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> > > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> > > -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
> >
> >
>
>

[Kelly E Jones]

In article >,
Wilson > wrote:

>Kelly, <sigh>...one more time, I asked her to give me a price for a specific
>liner...she agreed that she'd get a price for a specific size liner, she
>then priced me a roll of liner and tried to pass it off as a 4'x8' price.
>Your bread analogy doesn't work well...I go into the store WANTING a whole
>loaf (LOL) I didn't walk into her store wanting a whole roll of liner. But
>the point is she lied about it, she called me back and said the price of a
>4'x8' liner was $96.00.

No lie. That's exactly what she was planning to charge you for a 4X8
liner; that was her price. If you don't get it, that's OK, I can deal
with it.

In the meantime, thanks for the tip... I'll investigate
justliners.com for my next liner as you recommend, and stay AWAY from
any dealer asking 4-5X the going rate.

Kelly

[Anne Lurie]

Bill, I initially had the same thought you did about a special order, until
it occurred to me that the store owner could have ordered from the same
place Wilson did! Even allowing for a small mark-up, the price would have
been reasonable.

Or, if she did not have a source for such a special item, she should have
honestly said that it was not cost-efficient for her to research prices for
something for which she was not likely to have any other customers.

Anne Lurie
Raleigh, NC


"PlainBill" > wrote in message
...
> I'd like to point out a few things you perhaps failed to consider.
> Your local place most likely does not stock pond liner. To fill your
> request, she would have to special order a roll of material, then keep
> the balance on hand until another buyer came along. All the while she
> has the money tied up in inventory, AND the remainder of the roll
> taking up space in the stockroom. This is why I seldom ask a business
> to special order items. If they hope to hope to stay in business,
> they must charge you for the cost of the item, plus the time it takes
> to locate it, plus the shipping, plus their normal markup.
>
> I also disagree with your title - there is nothing unethical in a
> shopkeeper trying to make a profit. If she doesn't, she won't be in
> business very long.
>
> That said, there is no excuse for taking two weeks to call you with
> the price.
>
> PlainBill
>
> On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 14:12:18 -0500, "Wilson" >
> wrote:
>
> >I recently bought a 5.5' x 15' liner from justliners.com to build my
> >waterfall and was pleased to say the least with the price($23.95 +
shipping
> >$8.00 UPS), it was delivered in approx. 4 days and the quality is more
than
> >I expected.
> >
> > A week or two before I visited my local (I wouldn't call them a pond
supply
> >store), more of a rock/paver/statuary/but we also order pond supplies
from
> >Aquascape kind of place....went in and asked her to get me prices on a
> >liner,pump and rocks.....2 weeks later! she calls me back after I already
> >had finished my waterfall and gives me prices on a liner: 4'x8'
> >45mil-$96.00!! I told her basically that she had rocks in her head and
that
> >I now understood why nobody even knew of this place even though it had
been
> >open since last October....and that she would never get a dime from me.
What
> >I imagine she was doing is charging me for a roll of liner and cutting my
> >piece from it.
> >
> >What I've learned so far about buying supplies for ponds is you must look
> >around, most places prices are way out of wack on most thing...example:
I
> >visited a pond supplier in a nearby town that carried barley(my mom
wanted
> >me to pick her up some for her pond) $45.00 for what amounted to a 1/2
> >pillow size bag of barley! Unreal.
> >
> >I've only checked a few places and websites so far but I'd have to say
that
> >justliners.com is probably the best and cheapest place to go.
> >
> >My .02 Just felt like venting....sorry, we now return you to your
regular
> >programming.
> >
> >~Wilson~
> >
>

[john rutz]

she probably checked her supplyers to find one that would sell the cut
to size peice
paid them their price pluss S&H and added her markup

>
John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

never miss a good oportunity to shut up

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

[john rutz]

>
>
> Kelly, <sigh>...one more time, I asked her to give me a price for a specific
> liner...she agreed that she'd get a price for a specific size liner, she
> then priced me a roll of liner and tried to pass it off as a 4'x8' price.
> Your bread analogy doesn't work well...I go into the store WANTING a whole
> loaf (LOL) I didn't walk into her store wanting a whole roll of liner. But
> the point is she lied about it, she called me back and said the price of a
> 4'x8' liner was $96.00. Period...end of discussion.
>
> ~Wilson~
>
>

there is now way a whole roll of epdm sells for only 96.00
wholesale it is about 15 c a sq ft and comes in a 20x100 ft roll
--





John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

never miss a good oportunity to shut up

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

[john rutz]

john rutz wrote:
> she probably checked her supplyers to find one that would sell the cut
> to size peice
> paid them their price pluss S&H and added her markup

I havent bought epdm in a couple years I called three local suplyers
prices ranged from 21 - 32 for that peice

>
>>
> John Rutz
> Z5 New Mexico
>
> never miss a good oportunity to shut up
>
> see my pond at:
>
> http://www.fuerjefe.com
>


--





John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

never miss a good oportunity to shut up

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

[PlainBill]

Anne, there is a saying, "Time is money". The typical shopkeeper has
many things to do. Finding the lowest cost for a special order item
is pretty low on the list of priorities for most of them.

As I see it, the shopkeeper was negligent - she should have gotten
back to Wilson within a day. Two weeks is unreasonable for a task
that should have taken no more than 10 minutes. However, that is not
unethical. And quoting a price several times higher than an e-store
charges is not unethical - we have no idea what she would have to pay
for it!

PlainBill

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 22:02:19 GMT, "Anne Lurie" >
wrote:

>Bill, I initially had the same thought you did about a special order, until
>it occurred to me that the store owner could have ordered from the same
>place Wilson did! Even allowing for a small mark-up, the price would have
>been reasonable.
>
>Or, if she did not have a source for such a special item, she should have
>honestly said that it was not cost-efficient for her to research prices for
>something for which she was not likely to have any other customers.
>
>Anne Lurie
>Raleigh, NC
>
>
>"PlainBill" > wrote in message
...
>> I'd like to point out a few things you perhaps failed to consider.
>> Your local place most likely does not stock pond liner. To fill your
>> request, she would have to special order a roll of material, then keep
>> the balance on hand until another buyer came along. All the while she
>> has the money tied up in inventory, AND the remainder of the roll
>> taking up space in the stockroom. This is why I seldom ask a business
>> to special order items. If they hope to hope to stay in business,
>> they must charge you for the cost of the item, plus the time it takes
>> to locate it, plus the shipping, plus their normal markup.
>>
>> I also disagree with your title - there is nothing unethical in a
>> shopkeeper trying to make a profit. If she doesn't, she won't be in
>> business very long.
>>
>> That said, there is no excuse for taking two weeks to call you with
>> the price.
>>
>> PlainBill
>>
>> On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 14:12:18 -0500, "Wilson" >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >I recently bought a 5.5' x 15' liner from justliners.com to build my
>> >waterfall and was pleased to say the least with the price($23.95 +
>shipping
>> >$8.00 UPS), it was delivered in approx. 4 days and the quality is more
>than
>> >I expected.
>> >
>> > A week or two before I visited my local (I wouldn't call them a pond
>supply
>> >store), more of a rock/paver/statuary/but we also order pond supplies
>from
>> >Aquascape kind of place....went in and asked her to get me prices on a
>> >liner,pump and rocks.....2 weeks later! she calls me back after I already
>> >had finished my waterfall and gives me prices on a liner: 4'x8'
>> >45mil-$96.00!! I told her basically that she had rocks in her head and
>that
>> >I now understood why nobody even knew of this place even though it had
>been
>> >open since last October....and that she would never get a dime from me.
>What
>> >I imagine she was doing is charging me for a roll of liner and cutting my
>> >piece from it.
>> >
>> >What I've learned so far about buying supplies for ponds is you must look
>> >around, most places prices are way out of wack on most thing...example:
>I
>> >visited a pond supplier in a nearby town that carried barley(my mom
>wanted
>> >me to pick her up some for her pond) $45.00 for what amounted to a 1/2
>> >pillow size bag of barley! Unreal.
>> >
>> >I've only checked a few places and websites so far but I'd have to say
>that
>> >justliners.com is probably the best and cheapest place to go.
>> >
>> >My .02 Just felt like venting....sorry, we now return you to your
>regular
>> >programming.
>> >
>> >~Wilson~
>> >
>>
>

[PlainBill]

Wilson, how did she lie? Did she promise to give you the best
possible price? Did she claim her price was the lowest possible
price? Did she promise to call you back the next day?

PlainBill

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 15:12:31 -0500, "Wilson" >
wrote:

>
>"Nedra" > wrote in message
link.net...
>> not that anyone asked ... but I Vote with Wilson.
>> Unethical.
>>
>> Nedra
>
>Ty Nedra.
>
>Phew! I thought nobody was going to take my side :P and it was going to
>turn into a flame war............sit down Just Me "Koi"! :)
>
>I do however see where PlainBill and Kelly are coming from, buyer beware and
>if not you just overpaid but there has to be boundaries. A lie is a lie is a
>lie.
>
>~Wilson~
>

[Wilson]

"PlainBill" > wrote in message
...
> Wilson, how did she lie? Did she promise to give you the best
> possible price? Did she claim her price was the lowest possible
> price? Did she promise to call you back the next day?
>
> PlainBill



It really doesn't matter to me what you think that is, the truth is....that
is deceptive,questionable and unethical business practice. She lied to me
about what I was buying....she did not quote me the price for the size liner
I asked for. I will also continue to spread it around that she runs her
business like that and promote a supplier like justliners.com. Hey, I guess
she got what she asked for huh?

~Wilson~

[Snooze]

Wilson, sorry my friend, but I fail to see what was unethical in what she
did. Yes it's crummy that she took two weeks to reply back to you. But let's
face it, special order items are pretty low on the priority list of things a
store owner must worry about.

Admittedly it only takes 10 minutes to fax/email/call the supplier and ask
about the price of a custom liner, and she should have had the price ready
for you in a day or two. Let's pretend she was extremely agressive in her
attempt to find a cheaper supplier for a single order liner, how much profit
would she have made? Compare that to the time and resources she spent
looking for that, rather then just calling her standard supplier and asking
them for the price on it.

Given the standard retail markup is 2 times wholesale, if custom cut liner
is $32 (including shipping), retail would be about $64, given it's a niche
product in a specialty shop, the markups are higher, so $90 is reasonable.

Go to http://maps.yahoo.com and look at where justliners is located.
35507B Clearpond Road, Shawnee, OK 74801
I bet justliners doesn't have, the lease overhead that your local store
does.

When you go on vacation, and visit an amusement park, the t-shirts sold
there are often about $25 each. Old Navy sells t-shirts, 3 for $10. Do you
consider that unethical? The lesson to be learnt here is America is based on
a free market economy, if someone wants to sell liners for $100 they can,
you can buy it, or you can find someone else to sell you the same item for
less.

Sameer

"Wilson" > wrote in message
...
> I recently bought a 5.5' x 15' liner from justliners.com to build my
> waterfall and was pleased to say the least with the price($23.95 +
shipping
> $8.00 UPS), it was delivered in approx. 4 days and the quality is more
than
> I expected.
>
> A week or two before I visited my local (I wouldn't call them a pond
supply
> store), more of a rock/paver/statuary/but we also order pond supplies from

> Aquascape kind of place....went in and asked her to get me prices on a
> liner,pump and rocks.....2 weeks later! she calls me back after I already
> had finished my waterfall and gives me prices on a liner: 4'x8'
> 45mil-$96.00!! I told her basically that she had rocks in her head and
that
> I now understood why nobody even knew of this place even though it had
been
> open since last October....and that she would never get a dime from me.
What
> I imagine she was doing is charging me for a roll of liner and cutting my
> piece from it.
>
> What I've learned so far about buying supplies for ponds is you must look
> around, most places prices are way out of wack on most thing...example: I
> visited a pond supplier in a nearby town that carried barley(my mom wanted
> me to pick her up some for her pond) $45.00 for what amounted to a 1/2
> pillow size bag of barley! Unreal.
>
> I've only checked a few places and websites so far but I'd have to say
that
> justliners.com is probably the best and cheapest place to go.
>
> My .02 Just felt like venting....sorry, we now return you to your regular
> programming.
>
> ~Wilson~
>
>
>

[BenignVanilla]

"skooch" > wrote in message
...
> Hey BV
>
> I thought you lived around "Baltmore". From the sounds of all your
> problems getting things UD think you lived the "backwoods" and a trip to
> town was a weekly event and 40 miles away.

You would. I don't know if I am not looking hard enough or what.

> Did you ever get your potash? (0-0-50)

I have been too busy to look lately. I have not hit any real garden shops. I
have checked the Lowes, Home Depot and a few nursuries to no avail.

> My local farm co-op dad (20) 5# bags on the shelf today, when I went for
> mine.
>
> If you need it what say we trade some of your Duckweed,. I can't find it
> around here, every body seems to sell only Azolla.

Sure.
<snip>

BV.

[BenignVanilla]

"Wilson" > wrote in message
...
<snip>
> Kelly, <sigh>...one more time, I asked her to give me a price for a
specific
> liner...she agreed that she'd get a price for a specific size liner, she
> then priced me a roll of liner and tried to pass it off as a 4'x8' price.
> Your bread analogy doesn't work well...I go into the store WANTING a
whole
> loaf (LOL) I didn't walk into her store wanting a whole roll of liner.
But
> the point is she lied about it, she called me back and said the price of a
> 4'x8' liner was $96.00. Period...end of discussion.

Wilson, you didn't say that at anytime in this thread, except for the theory
in your original post:

"I imagine she was doing is charging me for a roll of liner and cutting my
piece from it."

Did she say she was getting you a roll, or did you imagine that? I am
confused.

BV.

[Susan H. Simko]

Anne Lurie wrote:

> I suppose that I might feel "safer" (or more trusting) if I could go to a
> store "down the street" but the only thing less than a 10-minute drive
> (one-way) is a gas station & hairdresser. Soooo...... to make my point, I
> buy online all the time (just as I ordered from catalogues for 20 years
> before that, *especially* for Christmas presents, as life is too short for
> me to box up stuff & stand in line at the post office).

I think every UPS guy in the area knows our address by now. *grin* I
hate to shop with the exception of Lowes, Home Depot and grocery stores.
The variety online is *wonderful* and without ever having to leave my
home. This leaves a lot more time for reading, gardening and ponding.
Besides, by ordering online I usually get exactly what I want with no
compromises. My s.o.'s mother is constantly amazed by the fact that I
buy almost all my plants for the yard from online stores. IF she wasn't
so adverse to it, she too could have a chocolate peppermint plant and a
lime scented geranium. *grin*

Susan
shsimko at duke dot edu

[Wilson]

>
> Wilson, you didn't say that at anytime in this thread, except for the
theory
> in your original post:
>
> "I imagine she was doing is charging me for a roll of liner and cutting my
> piece from it."
>
> Did she say she was getting you a roll, or did you imagine that? I am
> confused.
>
> BV.

We agreed she would get a price on a 4x8....I then ASS U ME d that she was
probably getting a roll for herself and cutting my piece off of that.

~Wilson~

[Wilson]

Snooze > wrote in message
thlink.net...
> Wilson, sorry my friend, but I fail to see what was unethical in what she
> did. Yes it's crummy that she took two weeks to reply back to you. But
let's
> face it, special order items are pretty low on the priority list of things
a
> store owner must worry about.
>
> Admittedly it only takes 10 minutes to fax/email/call the supplier and ask
> about the price of a custom liner, and she should have had the price ready
> for you in a day or two. Let's pretend she was extremely agressive in her
> attempt to find a cheaper supplier for a single order liner, how much
profit
> would she have made? Compare that to the time and resources she spent
> looking for that, rather then just calling her standard supplier and
asking
> them for the price on it.
>
> Given the standard retail markup is 2 times wholesale, if custom cut liner
> is $32 (including shipping), retail would be about $64, given it's a niche
> product in a specialty shop, the markups are higher, so $90 is reasonable.
>
> Go to http://maps.yahoo.com and look at where justliners is located.
> 35507B Clearpond Road, Shawnee, OK 74801
> I bet justliners doesn't have, the lease overhead that your local store
> does.
>
> When you go on vacation, and visit an amusement park, the t-shirts sold
> there are often about $25 each. Old Navy sells t-shirts, 3 for $10. Do you
> consider that unethical?

No, and I'll tell you why....I can find many stores that sell shirt (even
t-shirts) that sell for $25+ but I'll bet you can't find one place that
sells a 4x8 liner for $96. Unless of course you come to my hometown. I
don't mind paying the industry average even if it's high. Are you talking
t-shirts for $3.33? I don't recall seeing Six Flags selling plain
t-shirts....what I do see them is selling t-shirts with iron on type
advertisement of their business, that's like comparing apples to oranges.
All this lady did was make a call and didn't alter the product in any way.


The lesson to be learnt here is America is based on
> a free market economy, if someone wants to sell liners for $100 they can,
> you can buy it, or you can find someone else to sell you the same item for
> less.
>
> Sameer

I don't know....I've checked around found the price I paid is the low end of
average, I just find the price she quoted hard to digest. I consider jacking
up the price that high and preying on people that don't know better,
unethical. You can give examples all day long of businesses that border on
that gray area but I think her making what amounts to be a $50+ phone call
is just a bit out of line.

If you don't want to call it unethical that's fine....but I'm going to.

~Wilson~

[Wilson]

> I am confused...what was the lie? She called you and gave you a price for
a
> product. The priced sucked. What is the lie?
>
> BV.

This is one of those arguments that is hard to argue either way.... if you
go put new tires on your car and the guy who orders them gets 8 instead of 4
then charges his normal markup, is he a good businessman or an honest one?
No matter what you can always say he can charge what he wants, and that's
true but it doesn't make it right.

The difference between paying $23.00....and $96.00, is just someone trying
to take advantage of a monopoly in the area and an unknowledgable public.
That in my opinion is unethical.

The definition of Unethical is not conforming to approved standards of
social or professional behavior.....answer me this question, if someone
walked in to that same business who really knew their stuff and she realized
this and quoted a different price to them than she did for me.... for the
same liner, would it then be unethical? Now before you answer that, know
that in the insurance industry a producer can have his license revoked for
that very practice....because it's an unethical business practice. There is
no way that I can prove that she would do this, but given the fact that her
price is so out of whack it's not hard to imagine that she does
whatever....whenever.

You say it's not....I say it is.

~Wilson~

[Kelly E Jones]

In article >,
Wilson > wrote:
>
>> I am confused...what was the lie? She called you and gave you a price for
>a
>> product. The priced sucked. What is the lie?
>>
>> BV.
>
>This is one of those arguments that is hard to argue either way.... if you
>go put new tires on your car and the guy who orders them gets 8 instead of 4
>then charges his normal markup, is he a good businessman or an honest
one?

Not sure I understand your premise, but if you're saying he quoted a
price which was about what you would normally pay for 8 tires, and the
customer agreed to that price, then he's done nothing unethical.

>
>The difference between paying $23.00....and $96.00, is just someone trying
>to take advantage of a monopoly in the area and an unknowledgable public.
>That in my opinion is unethical.

As you have demonstrated, there is no 'monopoly in the area', as
everyone in that area has the internet, and dozens of mail-order
suppliers to go to if they don't like the local price. And it is not
the dealer's fault if the public is unknowledgeable, it is the
public's. (And the public is probably not so unknowledgeable as you
assume: I know of at least one person who was smart enough to reject
that price, and got a much better deal online! :)


>The definition of Unethical is not conforming to approved standards of
>social or professional behavior

So what is the approved standard of professional behavior which is not
being followed? That you shouldn't charge really high prices? About
the only time this is considered a standard is in times of emergency
or great need: It is generally considered unethical (and in many
places, illegal) to charge a higher-than-normal markup on bottled
water after a natural disaster, for example. Obviously that situation
does not apply here.

>.....answer me this question, if someone
>walked in to that same business who really knew their stuff and she realized
>this and quoted a different price to them than she did for me.... for the
>same liner, would it then be unethical?

No. Again, it is the customer's responsibility to be educated. Be
assured that price differentials exist all over the place. Unless
they're based on something like race, religion, or some other
'protected class', they are neither illegal nor unethical. (So far,
'stupidity' isn't considered a protected class :)

> Now before you answer that, know
>that in the insurance industry a producer can have his license revoked for
>that very practice....because it's an unethical business practice.

No, because it's against the law. Insurance, unlike retail pond
supplies, is a regulated industry.

> There is
>no way that I can prove that she would do this, but given the fact that her
>price is so out of whack it's not hard to imagine that she does
>whatever....whenever.

Your whole argument seems to be based upon assumptions, presumptions,
and imaginings. Not a strong case.

I whole-heartedly support you calling our attention to a retailer with
unreasonable prices, and pointing out a great place to get liners at a
good price. But I have a special venom I reserve for unethical
merchants, and this just doesn't qualify.

[BenignVanilla]

"Wilson" > wrote in message
...
>
> > I am confused...what was the lie? She called you and gave you a price
for
> a
> > product. The priced sucked. What is the lie?
> >
> > BV.
>
> This is one of those arguments that is hard to argue either way.... if you
> go put new tires on your car and the guy who orders them gets 8 instead of
4
> then charges his normal markup, is he a good businessman or an honest one?
> No matter what you can always say he can charge what he wants, and that's
> true but it doesn't make it right.
>
> The difference between paying $23.00....and $96.00, is just someone trying
> to take advantage of a monopoly in the area and an unknowledgable public.
> That in my opinion is unethical.
>
> The definition of Unethical is not conforming to approved standards of
> social or professional behavior.....answer me this question, if someone
> walked in to that same business who really knew their stuff and she
realized
> this and quoted a different price to them than she did for me.... for the
> same liner, would it then be unethical? Now before you answer that, know
> that in the insurance industry a producer can have his license revoked for
> that very practice....because it's an unethical business practice. There
is
> no way that I can prove that she would do this, but given the fact that
her
> price is so out of whack it's not hard to imagine that she does
> whatever....whenever.
>
> You say it's not....I say it is.

I don't disagree with anything you say above, I am just confused about the
lie part. You called for a product and didn't like her price. The part about
ordering a roll, and charging you for a piece was a theory you had, based on
nothing but the dollar amount. I think you are just shocked by the price and
reacting to it. I know when I bought my liner, shopping around saved me
about $100.00 as well. I don't think the other guys were dishonest, I just
think they were pricing their materials wrong.

BV.

[BenignVanilla]

"Wilson" > wrote in message
...
<snip>
> I don't know....I've checked around found the price I paid is the low end
of
> average, I just find the price she quoted hard to digest. I consider
jacking
> up the price that high and preying on people that don't know better,
> unethical. You can give examples all day long of businesses that border
on
> that gray area but I think her making what amounts to be a $50+ phone
call
> is just a bit out of line.
>
> If you don't want to call it unethical that's fine....but I'm going to.
<snip>

Sounds like you have never bought a new car. *laugh* Clearly, we are talking
semantics here, but I think you lost some of us with the supposition of the
retailer buying a roll and charging you for a piece. That was an assumption,
not fact. You found someone with awful prices, and slow response time. What
this tells me is one of two things 1) it is an awfully run business and will
soon disappear or 2) they did not have the product, and it would be too
expensive for them to get it, so instead of turning you away, she made the
deal unattractive so you would walk away.

BV.

[Wilson]

> I worked for a software company years ago that called to do an upgrade for
a
> client. The client was a total pain, and the project was destined to fail
> for political and technical reasons. Our company put a bid in that no-one
> would accept. The CEO felt it was better to be priced out, then to do it
and
> fail or to say, "No" to a customer. In some ways, a respectable solution.
> The bad news...they took the bid without squabble. The good news...we did
> the project, with money and time to spare.

I won't respond to that until after you send the plants...LOL....maybe not
at all actually :D

> As for the plants...I have been so busy I have not gotten it done, and I
am
> on vacation starting Thursday. If I can get them done before then, I will
> send them out. If not, next week I promise.
>
> BV.

I'm in no hurry, just changing the subject on ya.

~Wilson~

[[email protected]]

In >, on 07/21/03
at 10:28 AM, "BenignVanilla" >
said:

>Our U-Haul place does not sell nor install them. I finally found a shop
>in Randallstown, MD that sells hitchs and had one in stock for my van.
>The wifey-poo is picking it up today.


Do you live somewhere near Randallstown?


Alan

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[BenignVanilla]

"Wilson" > wrote in message
...
>
> > I worked for a software company years ago that called to do an upgrade
for
> a
> > client. The client was a total pain, and the project was destined to
fail
> > for political and technical reasons. Our company put a bid in that
no-one
> > would accept. The CEO felt it was better to be priced out, then to do it
> and
> > fail or to say, "No" to a customer. In some ways, a respectable
solution.
> > The bad news...they took the bid without squabble. The good news...we
did
> > the project, with money and time to spare.
>
> I won't respond to that until after you send the plants...LOL....maybe not
> at all actually :D
>
> > As for the plants...I have been so busy I have not gotten it done, and I
> am
> > on vacation starting Thursday. If I can get them done before then, I
will
> > send them out. If not, next week I promise.
> >
> > BV.
>
> I'm in no hurry, just changing the subject on ya.

I swear I am trying...work has been busy this week, and we're planning our
yearly camping trip which starts Thursday...and Nedra is on my butt about
pictures of Lotus...and I have to start digging my next pond...and I need a
haircut...I promise soon...

BV.

[BenignVanilla]

> wrote in message
ganews.com...
> In >, on 07/21/03
> at 10:28 AM, "BenignVanilla" >
> said:
>
> >Our U-Haul place does not sell nor install them. I finally found a shop
> >in Randallstown, MD that sells hitchs and had one in stock for my van.
> >The wifey-poo is picking it up today.
>
>
> Do you live somewhere near Randallstown?

Just a short drive, yes.

BV.