Need advice on setting up new tank

[Jan Sacharuk]

So, I've got a tank with 4 fish in it, and they're doing
okay. However, the commons have started getting aggressive during
dinner time, and they're pushing the veiltails around (though the
veiltails are getting enough food just fine). So, we moved up the date
of getting the new tank. I put a handful of the gravel from the
current tank into the new tank, as well as one of the water filters
and about half a litre of water. Should I be moving more water or
gravel into the new tank? How long should I let the water cycle before
putting the commons in there and starting the process of
monitoring/water changes? I don't really want to shock the fish, and I
do know that it's possible though not desirable to put them directly
into this water, as long as I keep a very close eye on them.

As a sort of related question, what's with the commons? They'll push
each other around, and they'll push the veiltails around the tank. If
one common pushes another, the other one pushes back, so I'm not so
worried. The veiltails just swim around and look kinda sad.

Thanks,

JS

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[E.Otter]

I was in this situation not too long ago... patience is important.
Over the course of a week I moved my decorations and about 3-4 cups of
gravel from my old tank to the new one. Not all at ounce, just a little bit
at a time. I also took an old replacement filter from my current tank's
penguin bio-wheel filter and put it into the filter on my tank. It wasn't
the right size, but I didn't need it to do any filtering, just transfer the
nitrifying bacteria on it to the new tank. Same for the decoratios and
gravel. I didn't really like the decorations and gravel, its just that they
had the nitrifying bacteria on them to help jump start the cycling process.

Once that week was completed, I then let the filtration and air stones for
another week on the new tank.

Then I added the fish. Its important not too add too many fish or you'll
overload the cycling system before it gets strong enough to deal with the
increased load. I added 3 small goldfish to a 29g tank. I monitored the
amonia, nitrites, and nitrates twice daily. The results were quite good.
After one week the tank cycled. I got a nitrate readings between 5 and
10ppm and at no time did I have any detectable ammonia and nitrites.

Three weeks total. No undo stress or harm to the fish.

"Jan Sacharuk" > wrote in message
...
So, I've got a tank with 4 fish in it, and they're doing
okay. However, the commons have started getting aggressive during
dinner time, and they're pushing the veiltails around (though the
veiltails are getting enough food just fine). So, we moved up the date
of getting the new tank. I put a handful of the gravel from the
current tank into the new tank, as well as one of the water filters
and about half a litre of water. Should I be moving more water or
gravel into the new tank? How long should I let the water cycle before
putting the commons in there and starting the process of
monitoring/water changes? I don't really want to shock the fish, and I
do know that it's possible though not desirable to put them directly
into this water, as long as I keep a very close eye on them.

As a sort of related question, what's with the commons? They'll push
each other around, and they'll push the veiltails around the tank. If
one common pushes another, the other one pushes back, so I'm not so
worried. The veiltails just swim around and look kinda sad.

Thanks,

JS

--
======================== ========================
Jan Sacharuk Member in Good Standing of The Discordian Solidarity
Turn on viewing of the X-Geek-Code header to see my Geek Code
----------------------------------------------------------------
And Caesar's spirit, ranging for revenge, with Ate by his side
come hot from hell, shall in these confines with a monarch's voice
cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war.
- Antony, Julius Caesar Act III, scene i

[Mick Manford]

Seems to me that there are so many variables involved in cycling any
tank, that its dangerous to rely on things to go to timetable. I'd
recommend that regular testing of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate is the
only way to know when its cycled. Water and gravel from your first
tank will speed things along but the bottom line is wait until the
ammonia and nitrite show as zero on your test, and there is a little
nitrate. Then add one fish at a time, waiting for the readings to
stabilise again before adding any more.

As to what is going on with your fish - well think of your veiltails
as sensitive poets and your commons as sports jocks.

They don't make good roomies.

The general rule is that single tailed goldfish should not be kept
with double tailed goldfish. So while shubunkins and comets are ok
with commons - moors, orandas, veils etc are not.

[Dennis Fox]

Mick Manford wrote:

>
> The general rule is that single tailed goldfish should not be kept
> with double tailed goldfish. So while shubunkins and comets are ok
> with commons - moors, orandas, veils etc are not.

Is this really a general rule? I ask only because I have not run into
it before ... though I have been reading in this newsgroup for several
months and doing research about GF on the web.

I am also curious since I am considering a redcap oranda as a playmate
for my common.

Thanks all,
Dennis

[Jan Sacharuk]

In article et>,
E.Otter wrote:
> I was in this situation not too long ago... patience is important.
> Over the course of a week I moved my decorations and about 3-4 cups of
> gravel from my old tank to the new one. Not all at ounce, just a little bit
> at a time. I also took an old replacement filter from my current tank's
> penguin bio-wheel filter and put it into the filter on my tank. It wasn't
> the right size, but I didn't need it to do any filtering, just transfer the
> nitrifying bacteria on it to the new tank. Same for the decoratios and
> gravel. I didn't really like the decorations and gravel, its just that they
> had the nitrifying bacteria on them to help jump start the cycling process.
>
> Once that week was completed, I then let the filtration and air stones for
> another week on the new tank.

Alas, I didn't have the opportunity to wait this long. Like (I think)
I said before, I added some gravel from the old tank, a bit of water,
and a filter that was a couple weeks old to the new tank, and let the
tank work with that for about a week. We couldn't wait any longer than
that, though, since the smallest fish, a veiltail, looked like he
might be in danger of being badly hurt. We thought it would be for the
best to move the fish, even if the water wasn't exactly perfect.

I'm doing daily 25% - 30% water changes. Nitrite levels are slightly
elevated...somewhere between 0.5ppm - 1.0ppm. The fish aren't in any
terrible danger, but I ended up subjecting them to a bit more stress
than I would have liked. Ammonia levels are right at zero, though.

Thanks for your advice. I wish I had had a chance to follow it
better. :)

JS

--
========================= ========================
Jan Sacharuk Member in Good Standing of The Discordian Solidarity
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[Azul]

On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 23:25:15 GMT, Jan Sacharuk
> wrote:

>In article et>,
>E.Otter wrote:
>> I was in this situation not too long ago... patience is important.
>> Over the course of a week I moved my decorations and about 3-4 cups of
>> gravel from my old tank to the new one. Not all at ounce, just a little bit
>> at a time. I also took an old replacement filter from my current tank's
>> penguin bio-wheel filter and put it into the filter on my tank. It wasn't
>> the right size, but I didn't need it to do any filtering, just transfer the
>> nitrifying bacteria on it to the new tank. Same for the decoratios and
>> gravel. I didn't really like the decorations and gravel, its just that they
>> had the nitrifying bacteria on them to help jump start the cycling process.
>>
>> Once that week was completed, I then let the filtration and air stones for
>> another week on the new tank.
>
>Alas, I didn't have the opportunity to wait this long. Like (I think)
>I said before, I added some gravel from the old tank, a bit of water,
>and a filter that was a couple weeks old to the new tank, and let the
>tank work with that for about a week. We couldn't wait any longer than
>that, though, since the smallest fish, a veiltail, looked like he
>might be in danger of being badly hurt. We thought it would be for the
>best to move the fish, even if the water wasn't exactly perfect.
>
>I'm doing daily 25% - 30% water changes. Nitrite levels are slightly
>elevated...somewhere between 0.5ppm - 1.0ppm. The fish aren't in any
>terrible danger, but I ended up subjecting them to a bit more stress
>than I would have liked. Ammonia levels are right at zero, though.
>
>Thanks for your advice. I wish I had had a chance to follow it
>better. :)
>
>JS
A tank will not cycle without fish in it, unless you follow
instructions for a fishless cycle. Just adding stuff from your old
tank will not promote the growth of the necessary bacteria, because
they have no food. One set of bacteria live off the ammonia, while
the second set live off the nitrite. The ammonia is provided by the
fish as a waste product.

When I bought my 30 G tank, I started a filter going on my 40 G
tank a few weeks in advance. That gave the filter itself time to
get some bacteria going in it. I filled my new tank, ran the air
pump in it for a day, added the filter from the other tank and the
fish.

From that point, I just monitored the ammonia and nitrite levels,
while doing water changes to keep them in check. My two fish
are very happy in their new home. It took 3 to 3 1/2 weeks to
cycle the new tank as opposed to the 4 - 6 weeks it took for the first
one to cycle.

Azul

[[email protected]]

yes. single tails are stronger and more aggressive for food and in general. Ingrid

Dennis Fox > wrote:

>Mick Manford wrote:
>
>>
>> The general rule is that single tailed goldfish should not be kept
>> with double tailed goldfish. So while shubunkins and comets are ok
>> with commons - moors, orandas, veils etc are not.
>
>Is this really a general rule? I ask only because I have not run into
>it before ... though I have been reading in this newsgroup for several
>months and doing research about GF on the web.
>
>I am also curious since I am considering a redcap oranda as a playmate
>for my common.
>
>Thanks all,
>Dennis



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[coelacanth]

Well, I've certainly heard this before--the rationale usually
given is that the double tailed fish can't compete for
food, so you either slowly starve them or grossly overfeed
the tank. Does anyone have any practical experience with
this?

-coelacanth


"Dennis Fox" > wrote in message
...
> Mick Manford wrote:
>
> >
> > The general rule is that single tailed goldfish should not be kept
> > with double tailed goldfish. So while shubunkins and comets are ok
> > with commons - moors, orandas, veils etc are not.
>
> Is this really a general rule? I ask only because I have not run into
> it before ... though I have been reading in this newsgroup for several
> months and doing research about GF on the web.
>
> I am also curious since I am considering a redcap oranda as a playmate
> for my common.
>
> Thanks all,
> Dennis
>

[Mick Manford]

Dennis Fox > wrote in message >...
> Mick Manford wrote:
>
> >
> > The general rule is that single tailed goldfish should not be kept
> > with double tailed goldfish. So while shubunkins and comets are ok
> > with commons - moors, orandas, veils etc are not.
>
> Is this really a general rule? I ask only because I have not run into
> it before ... though I have been reading in this newsgroup for several
> months and doing research about GF on the web.


Dennis,

Doubtless there are commons and orandas that get along fine, but if
you trawl newsgroups, goldfish websites etc you will find countless
tales of those that don't - so its all about playing the averages.

Commons are pretty close to the wild-style of fish, and therefore
incorprate more of the traits instilled through survival of the
fittest. They are fast agile swimmers.

Orandas are the results of hundreds of years of selective breeding by
humans, and are the products of survival of the fanciest.

In the simplest terms, it becomes extremely difficult to ensure that
fancy goldfish can get enough food in a tank containing their
wilder-type cousins.

In addition, shoaling goldfish will set up a pecking-order. Amongst
commons the rough and tumble employed in this process will cause
little harm, but fancies are always going to have a hard time.

Sorry to hit you with another metaphor, but we are talking tame wolf
and poodle here. Sure, it might be possible that a tame wolf and a
poodle might get along, but it is far more likely the poodle is going
to get its ass kicked.

Like all fish tips on newsgroups - whether its percentage water change
a week, best way to cycle, or what type of food to give - it is all
subjective and people have to make their own minds up. The reason I
said "general rule" is because you will find its the sort of advice
many very experienced fishkeepers will give you. One or two might say
different but most in my experience will tell you don't mix single
finned goldfish with fantails, veils, moors or orandas.

Or to look at it another way - don't mix egg-shaped goldfish with
cigar shaped goldfish.

Its a rule of thumb. If you want to say what the heck, I want to have
a go mixing fish, perhaps you should have a fall-back plan should
things go wrong - ie another tank which will allow you to split them
up, or a buddy prepared to take fish from you.

[Dennis Fox]

Dennis Fox wrote:
> Mick Manford wrote:
>
>>
>> The general rule is that single tailed goldfish should not be kept
>> with double tailed goldfish. So while shubunkins and comets are ok
>> with commons - moors, orandas, veils etc are not.
>
>
> Is this really a general rule? I ask only because I have not run into
> it before ... though I have been reading in this newsgroup for several
> months and doing research about GF on the web.
>
> I am also curious since I am considering a redcap oranda as a playmate
> for my common.

Thanks for all the replies Mick, Ingrid and coelacanth. Guess I will
need to rethink my GF expansion plan. Good thing I like the looks of
Shubunkins and comets, too.

-Dennis