Is a Air Pump necessary?

[FBCS]

I have read lots have natural ponds/VG filter no falls and they do not talk
of the need for an air pump/stone. How necessary is a air pump/air stone to
the health of the pond? Do you calculate size by gal with this type of pump
also. If not what would be a typical size for a pond, better yet, what do
you use? Joann

[K30a]

Joann wrote >>I have read lots have natural ponds/VG filter no falls and they
do not talk
of the need for an air pump/stone. How necessary is a air pump/air stone to
the health of the pond?<<

It all depends on the pond.

Our ornamental garden ponds usually suffer from way too many nutrients stuffed
into too small a space. The decomposition of these nutrients (fish poo,
decaying plant matter, etc.) uses up oxygen. And we love plants, so we stuff
lots of those in too. At night the plants stop making O2 and start consuming
it.

It is all a balancing act.

A good way to tell if your pond needs more 02 is to get up before the sun
rises. If you see fish gasping at the surface then adding an airstone would be
a good fix for them.

Low fish stocking is also a key to having an easy pond to manage.


k30a
yearly brother website posting
http://www.30acreimaging.com/

[K30a]

Joann wrote >>I have read lots have natural ponds/VG filter no falls and they
do not talk
of the need for an air pump/stone. How necessary is a air pump/air stone to
the health of the pond?<<

It all depends on the pond.

Our ornamental garden ponds usually suffer from way too many nutrients stuffed
into too small a space. The decomposition of these nutrients (fish poo,
decaying plant matter, etc.) uses up oxygen. And we love plants, so we stuff
lots of those in too. At night the plants stop making O2 and start consuming
it.

It is all a balancing act.

A good way to tell if your pond needs more 02 is to get up before the sun
rises. If you see fish gasping at the surface then adding an airstone would be
a good fix for them.

Low fish stocking is also a key to having an easy pond to manage.


k30a
yearly brother website posting
http://www.30acreimaging.com/

[Sam Hopkins]

Unless your fish are hanging at the top of the water gasping you dont need
an airstone.

"FBCS" > wrote in message
...
> I have read lots have natural ponds/VG filter no falls and they do not
talk
> of the need for an air pump/stone. How necessary is a air pump/air stone
to
> the health of the pond? Do you calculate size by gal with this type of
pump
> also. If not what would be a typical size for a pond, better yet, what do
> you use? Joann
>
>

[BenignVanilla]

"Sam Hopkins" > wrote in message
.. .
> Unless your fish are hanging at the top of the water gasping you dont need
> an airstone.
>
> "FBCS" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I have read lots have natural ponds/VG filter no falls and they do not
> talk
> > of the need for an air pump/stone. How necessary is a air pump/air stone
> to
> > the health of the pond? Do you calculate size by gal with this type of
> pump
> > also. If not what would be a typical size for a pond, better yet, what
do
> > you use? Joann

Sam, I think scientifically this is probably true, but if someone is
strangling you, would you like them to stop now, or wait until you turn
blue? Either way you will probably live, but which is really better? It's
cheap and easy to aerate.

BV.

[[email protected]]

all "unnatural" ponds need aeration. any pond with pea soup is a ticking time bomb
when the temp heats up the water wont hold enough oxygen and the big fish start
dying. just leave a container of water around without aeration and it starts
stinking really bad. drop in an airstone and it sweetens right up. everything in
the pond except the nasty bacteria need air. using a UV to clear the pea soup does
not mean there is enough oxygen. Ingrid


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Andrew Burgess]

"Lee Brouillet" > writes:

>I must (respectfully) disagree with you on this, Sam. By the time the fish
>are hanging out on the surface or at the waterfall, they're STARVED for
>oxygen, which is nearly too late. Why wait that long? They will grow better
>and be much happier with adequate O2 in the water. Mother Nature pulls a
>dirty trick on fish: in the summer, when they're the most active and
>growing, she yanks the oxygen out of the water because it's warm. Think of
>it like trying to run a marathon in Denver without training for it . . .
>sorry, there's just not much O2 in the air up there <G>. Same thing: not
>much O2 in warm water. Aeration is like filtration: you can't get too much.

There is a saturation point for oxygen dissolving in water.

For filtration I agree, just because if its twice as big it needs to be cleaned
half as often.

[FBCS]

But you didn't answer the second part of my question. If airation w/
airstone is necessary what size and type do I look for. They do not hang at
the top, but they are in full sun most of the day and in only 18" of depth
until I can finish digging. They is a slight waterfall they love to play in
and swim against the flow.
"BenignVanilla" > wrote in message
...
> "Sam Hopkins" > wrote in message
> .. .
> > Unless your fish are hanging at the top of the water gasping you dont
need
> > an airstone.
> >
> > "FBCS" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > I have read lots have natural ponds/VG filter no falls and they do not
> > talk
> > > of the need for an air pump/stone. How necessary is a air pump/air
stone
> > to
> > > the health of the pond? Do you calculate size by gal with this type of
> > pump
> > > also. If not what would be a typical size for a pond, better yet, what
> do
> > > you use? Joann
>
> Sam, I think scientifically this is probably true, but if someone is
> strangling you, would you like them to stop now, or wait until you turn
> blue? Either way you will probably live, but which is really better? It's
> cheap and easy to aerate.
>
> BV.
>
>

[BenignVanilla]

"FBCS" > wrote in message
...
> But you didn't answer the second part of my question. If airation w/
> airstone is necessary what size and type do I look for. They do not hang
at
> the top, but they are in full sun most of the day and in only 18" of depth
> until I can finish digging. They is a slight waterfall they love to play
in
> and swim against the flow.
<snip>

I am not sure of the correct answer. I can tell you that I aerate my pond
with a 300gph pump that is pumping up about 2.3 feet of head, and just
empties on a rock that splashes back to the pond. I dunno if that helps. I
have 3000 gallons.

BV.

[Sam Hopkins]

I'll say this if you have absolutely no moving water in your pond you need
areation because the bacteria will form a surface layer of scum and start to
stink.

> wrote in message
...
> all "unnatural" ponds need aeration. any pond with pea soup is a ticking
time bomb
> when the temp heats up the water wont hold enough oxygen and the big fish
start
> dying. just leave a container of water around without aeration and it
starts
> stinking really bad. drop in an airstone and it sweetens right up.
everything in
> the pond except the nasty bacteria need air. using a UV to clear the pea
soup does
> not mean there is enough oxygen. Ingrid
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Lee Brouillet]

How big is your pond (surface area and gallons)? How deep is the water?
Where do you live, i.e., do you have to deal with freezing water? What is
the temp of your water during the summer? How many fish do you have and how
big are they? What kind of fish, goldies or koi (the reason is in the growth
rate and eventual size)? It's not a simple answer, like "one 12" air
stone". But then again, ANY helps!

Lee

"FBCS" > wrote in message
...
> But you didn't answer the second part of my question. If airation w/
> airstone is necessary what size and type do I look for. They do not hang
at
> the top, but they are in full sun most of the day and in only 18" of depth
> until I can finish digging. They is a slight waterfall they love to play
in
> and swim against the flow.
> "BenignVanilla" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Sam Hopkins" > wrote in message
> > .. .
> > > Unless your fish are hanging at the top of the water gasping you dont
> need
> > > an airstone.
> > >
> > > "FBCS" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > I have read lots have natural ponds/VG filter no falls and they do
not
> > > talk
> > > > of the need for an air pump/stone. How necessary is a air pump/air
> stone
> > > to
> > > > the health of the pond? Do you calculate size by gal with this type
of
> > > pump
> > > > also. If not what would be a typical size for a pond, better yet,
what
> > do
> > > > you use? Joann
> >
> > Sam, I think scientifically this is probably true, but if someone is
> > strangling you, would you like them to stop now, or wait until you turn
> > blue? Either way you will probably live, but which is really better?
It's
> > cheap and easy to aerate.
> >
> > BV.
> >
> >
>
>

[K30a]

Theo wrote << Do not buy cheap air pumps as they will fail very soon.>>

I got my air pump from
http://www.aquaticecosystems.com
good site
(standard disclaimer applies)

k30a

[Sam Hopkins]

O2 enters water by its contact with it. So with that said the more surface
area you have for air to contact the water the quicker O2 can be
(re)absorbed. However, once the surface water is saturated with O2 no more
O2 will be absorbed in the pond. Very little O2 is added to water via the
air that comes out of an airstone. It's main purpose is to agitate the water
surface and create current so that the saturated surface water that was
exposed to the air drops and O2 depleted water raises to the surface.

If you had an airstone that made it so that there were always 1,000 bubbles
with a size of 1/32 of an inch in your water you'd only be adding around 12
square inches of surface area to your pond. That's a 3"X4" square.

If you have a pump that's creating current in your water you're fine. Now
using a fountain is a great way to get O2 in the water because you're
generating a HUGE amount of surface area because the water is being blown
apart into droplets and wrapped around by air. You'd be better served though
to have the pump for the fountain at the bottom of the pond. If it's input
is at the top of the pond you're saturating water you just saturated.

This is why those big air stone disks for rec ponds work so well. Ponds less
then 8-12 feet don't stratify (meaning there is no current caused by
different temperatures of water raising and failing). The disks are placed
at the bottom of the pond and make a current that takes the low O2 air at
the bottom and pushes it to the top of the pond to get saturated.

Sam


"FBCS" > wrote in message
...
> I have read lots have natural ponds/VG filter no falls and they do not
talk
> of the need for an air pump/stone. How necessary is a air pump/air stone
to
> the health of the pond? Do you calculate size by gal with this type of
pump
> also. If not what would be a typical size for a pond, better yet, what do
> you use? Joann
>
>

[Andrew Burgess]

"Lee Brouillet" > writes:

>I understand, Andrew. And I prefer to keep the O2 in my water at saturation,
>not "less than".

As do I.

>A spray bar on the water return to your pond would help
>with the pond's O2 levels; the spray bar to your filter is excellent for
>keeping the biobugs happy, but may not do too much for the fish once the
>water gets back to the pond.

I don't see your logic here. The biobugs consume a fixed amount of oxygen
regardless of where aeration occurs (as do the fish). Aerating the water in the
filter aerates the pond. Its the way to go if you don't want the noise or
appearence of aeration in the pond itself.

[FBCS]

Thanks all - for your imput. Joann
"FBCS" > wrote in message
...
> I have read lots have natural ponds/VG filter no falls and they do not
talk
> of the need for an air pump/stone. How necessary is a air pump/air stone
to
> the health of the pond? Do you calculate size by gal with this type of
pump
> also. If not what would be a typical size for a pond, better yet, what do
> you use? Joann
>
>

[[email protected]]

good aeration also helps move other gases up and out of the water... like CO2 and
H2S. Ingrid

"Theo van Daele" > wrote:

>>>And I prefer to keep the O2 in my water at saturation,
>not "less than".
>
>Agreed 100 %. O2 is one of these things you can never overdose.
>
>Lots of plants / morning / thunderstorm impending / some decaying mulm...
>one would be amazed how much O2 levels can drop in just a few hours. Fish
>need O2 more than they need water so to speak.
>
>But !: (big but) Do not buy cheap air pumps as they will fail very soon.
>The good ones are more expensive than you'd expect (IMHO)
>
>Learned this the hard way.
>
>Theo
>



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

just aerating the filters is not the same. everything in the pond needs oxygen too
AND aeration moves unwanted gases out of the pond. Ingrid


Andrew Burgess > wrote:
>I don't see your logic here. The biobugs consume a fixed amount of oxygen
>regardless of where aeration occurs (as do the fish). Aerating the water in the
>filter aerates the pond. Its the way to go if you don't want the noise or
>appearence of aeration in the pond itself.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Snooze]

Ingrid,

The amount of surface area a few hundred bubbles adds is insignificant, compared to the surface area of the pond.

See a post made by Jagath last year. I could go through the math again, but he did a much better job then I could. In that particular post, he was discussing the value of using an airbubbler to keep a hole open over winter, and how an airbubbler affects the gas exchange.

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=bubbles+surface+area+group:rec.ponds&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=rec.ponds&safe=off&selm=3D6FC1F1.1070404%40nospam.com&rnum=1

http://tinyurl.com/iufg

The main thing an airbubbler does, is create circulation. The water follows the air bubbles to the surface. But the same could be done with a pump, and that sucks water from the bottom and discharges it at the surface of the pond.

Sameer

> wrote in message ...
> wrong.. a great deal of air exchange occurs between the small air bubbles and the
> water... those fine bubbles have a tremendous surface area and it not only puts air
> (all the molecules of gases in air, not just oxygen) into the water, it lightens the
> water and moves the water to the surface where it helps degas the CO2 and H2S and
> other unwanted gases. think about sponge filters and how an airstone down inside
> them creates enough of a suction that it pulls crap from the tank into and thru the
> sponge. Ingrid
>
> Very little O2 is added to water via the
> >air that comes out of an airstone. It's main purpose is to agitate the water
> >surface and create current so that the saturated surface water that was
> >exposed to the air drops and O2 depleted water raises to the surface.

[Andrew Burgess]

writes:

>wrong.. a great deal of air exchange occurs between the small air bubbles and the
>water... those fine bubbles have a tremendous surface area and it not only puts air
>(all the molecules of gases in air, not just oxygen) into the water,

Small bubbles have small amounts of air too.

I read an experiment decades ago in aquariums where bubbling air VS pure oxygen
was tried. Suprisingly, no difference in water O2 levels. It happens at the surface.

>it lightens the
>water and moves the water to the surface where it helps degas the CO2 and H2S and
>other unwanted gases. think about sponge filters and how an airstone down inside
>them creates enough of a suction that it pulls crap from the tank into and thru the
>sponge. Ingrid

Yes, circulation and agitation are the keys.

[Andrew Burgess]

Andrew Burgess > writes:

writes:

>>just aerating the filters is not the same.i

>Oh? I suppose biofiltering in the filter isn't the same as doing it in the pond
>either?

>Saturate the water in the filter and the whole pond gets saturated.

>>everything in the pond needs oxygen too

>The water circulates.

If you want to pick nits, there is a slight difference between aerating
in the filter and then pond. It changes who gets to use the oxygen first.

So if you aerate to saturation in the filter, the biofilter consumes a little
and the fish see a tiny bit less than saturation.

The bottom line is if you don't want aeration in the pond because of
appearance or noise then put it in the filter and you won't notice a difference
nor will the fish.

[FBCS]

Boy I stirred up a lot of bubbles with this thread (LOL), but great
information.
"FBCS" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks all - for your imput. Joann
> "FBCS" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I have read lots have natural ponds/VG filter no falls and they do not
> talk
> > of the need for an air pump/stone. How necessary is a air pump/air stone
> to
> > the health of the pond? Do you calculate size by gal with this type of
> pump
> > also. If not what would be a typical size for a pond, better yet, what
do
> > you use? Joann
> >
> >
>
>

[jammer]

LOL...I know, i am laughing picturing you sitting there with a pencil
and tablet doing all these math equations.



On Sun, 03 Aug 2003 02:38:24 GMT, "FBCS" > wrote:

>Boy I stirred up a lot of bubbles with this thread (LOL), but great
>information.
>"FBCS" > wrote in message
...
>> Thanks all - for your imput. Joann
>> "FBCS" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > I have read lots have natural ponds/VG filter no falls and they do not
>> talk
>> > of the need for an air pump/stone. How necessary is a air pump/air stone
>> to
>> > the health of the pond? Do you calculate size by gal with this type of
>> pump
>> > also. If not what would be a typical size for a pond, better yet, what
>do
>> > you use? Joann
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>

[[email protected]]

oxygen diffusion surely does occur all along the path of bubbles and the finer the
bubbles the better aeration is. but that is not the whole story.
from previous posts.... this is in the aquatic ecosystems catalog
http://www.aquaticeco.com/aquatic1v1/index.icl?referer=http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=aquatic+ecosystems&eflag=2

on page 35 tech talk #84
Air and Oxygen Diffusers: .....
"Oxygen transfer is proportional to bubble size and contact time. Small bubbles have
a greater air to water contact surface area than the same volume of gas in fewer
large bubbles (see bubble size tech notes).
and the bubble notes are on page 33. "a short course in fine bubbles tech talk #52
"Mechanical aerators agitate water to produce liquid/air contact, while underwater
diffusers introduce bubbles from a depth to achieve oxygen transfer and mixing. ...
Bubble aerators are also better at removing gases, such as ammonia and carbon
dioxide".
Ingrid


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

in a saturated oxygen condition, no further saturation will occur in the bubble
stream or at the surface.
for the experiment to be meaningful would require a thick layer of oil on top of the
water, then let the oxygen levels drop, then introduce the oxygen.
however, oxygen is also a superb "oxidizer" that reacts with and breaks down organic
compounds. it detoxifies gases like H2S. so good aeration is multi-functional.
Ingrid

Andrew Burgess > wrote:
>I read an experiment decades ago in aquariums where bubbling air VS pure oxygen
>was tried. Suprisingly, no difference in water O2 levels. It happens at the surface.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Sue Walsh]

"Lee Brouillet" > wrote in message >...
> All fish benefit from O2 saturation. It's just that
> most don't get it. For instance, well water has almost NO oxygen, and it
> must be introduced via degassing.

Lee,
What does this mean 'well water...introduced via degassing'? I fill
my pond with well water(don't know about degassing) and I thought
since I didn't have any chlorine to deal with, that was a good thing.
Is there something I need to do other than run the hose into the pond?
I usually allow it to spalsh in from a few inches above water level,
rather than submerge the hose in the water.

Sue W.

[Andrew Burgess]

"Lee Brouillet" > writes:

>Water coming out of the ground via well has no (or very little) oxygen in
>it. The same thing as water pushed through miles of pipe . . . the oxygen
>has been knocked out of it.

And where was the oxygen knocked to?

[john rutz]

Sue Walsh wrote:
> "Lee Brouillet" > wrote in message >...
>
>>All fish benefit from O2 saturation. It's just that
>>most don't get it. For instance, well water has almost NO oxygen, and it
>>must be introduced via degassing.
>
>
> Lee,
> What does this mean 'well water...introduced via degassing'? I fill
> my pond with well water(don't know about degassing) and I thought
> since I didn't have any chlorine to deal with, that was a good thing.
> Is there something I need to do other than run the hose into the pond?
> I usually allow it to spalsh in from a few inches above water level,
> rather than submerge the hose in the water.
>
> Sue W.


--
I will chip in here if you have a deep well most do the water has no
o2 so by spraying it like you do you degass any bad gases and add oxegen.

my well is nearly 200 ft down so I have a permanent pipe set 2 ft above
the pond for filling it causes a lot of splash to mix water and air




John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

never miss a good oportunity to shut up

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

[Lee Brouillet]

Thanks John.

Lee

"john rutz" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Sue Walsh wrote:
> > "Lee Brouillet" > wrote in message
>...
> >
> >>All fish benefit from O2 saturation. It's just that
> >>most don't get it. For instance, well water has almost NO oxygen, and it
> >>must be introduced via degassing.
> >
> >
> > Lee,
> > What does this mean 'well water...introduced via degassing'? I fill
> > my pond with well water(don't know about degassing) and I thought
> > since I didn't have any chlorine to deal with, that was a good thing.
> > Is there something I need to do other than run the hose into the pond?
> > I usually allow it to spalsh in from a few inches above water level,
> > rather than submerge the hose in the water.
> >
> > Sue W.
>
>
> --
> I will chip in here if you have a deep well most do the water has no
> o2 so by spraying it like you do you degass any bad gases and add
oxegen.
>
> my well is nearly 200 ft down so I have a permanent pipe set 2 ft above
> the pond for filling it causes a lot of splash to mix water and air
>
>
>
>
> John Rutz
> Z5 New Mexico
>
> never miss a good oportunity to shut up
>
> see my pond at:
>
> http://www.fuerjefe.com
>

[Sue Walsh]

Thanks All for the information, very interesting. I will try to even
raise the hose up higher to get more of a spalsh when filling from now
on.

BTW: While I'm waiting for this pond to 'mature' should I be doing
any 25% water changes?

Sue W

"Lee Brouillet" > wrote in message >...
> Thanks John.
>
> Lee
>
> "john rutz" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > Sue Walsh wrote:
> > > "Lee Brouillet" > wrote in message
> >...
> > >
> > >>All fish benefit from O2 saturation. It's just that
> > >>most don't get it. For instance, well water has almost NO oxygen, and it
> > >>must be introduced via degassing.
> > >
> > >
> > > Lee,
> > > What does this mean 'well water...introduced via degassing'? I fill
> > > my pond with well water(don't know about degassing) and I thought
> > > since I didn't have any chlorine to deal with, that was a good thing.
> > > Is there something I need to do other than run the hose into the pond?
> > > I usually allow it to spalsh in from a few inches above water level,
> > > rather than submerge the hose in the water.
> > >
> > > Sue W.
> >
> >
> > --
> > I will chip in here if you have a deep well most do the water has no
> > o2 so by spraying it like you do you degass any bad gases and add
> oxegen.
> >
> > my well is nearly 200 ft down so I have a permanent pipe set 2 ft above
> > the pond for filling it causes a lot of splash to mix water and air
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > John Rutz
> > Z5 New Mexico
> >
> > never miss a good oportunity to shut up
> >
> > see my pond at:
> >
> > http://www.fuerjefe.com
> >

[Lee Brouillet]

If you have a bead filter, change the water via the "waste" setting, not the
"backflush". You don't want to dislodge your hard-won biobugs! If you have a
"regular" filter, then you can do the changes. However, I'd do 10%, not 25%.
Twenty-five percent is a bit radical for weekly changes unless there's a
reason to do so, like getting meds or a heavy salt level out or something
like that. Watch your KH levels and adjust as necessary (between rain and
whatever your ambient KH levels are, you need to keep the KH ~200 ppm).

Lee
"Sue Walsh" > wrote in message
om...
> Thanks All for the information, very interesting. I will try to even
> raise the hose up higher to get more of a spalsh when filling from now
> on.
>
> BTW: While I'm waiting for this pond to 'mature' should I be doing
> any 25% water changes?
>
> Sue W
>
> "Lee Brouillet" > wrote in message
>...
> > Thanks John.
> >
> > Lee
> >
> > "john rutz" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > >
> > > Sue Walsh wrote:
> > > > "Lee Brouillet" > wrote in message
> > >...
> > > >
> > > >>All fish benefit from O2 saturation. It's just that
> > > >>most don't get it. For instance, well water has almost NO oxygen,
and it
> > > >>must be introduced via degassing.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Lee,
> > > > What does this mean 'well water...introduced via degassing'? I fill
> > > > my pond with well water(don't know about degassing) and I thought
> > > > since I didn't have any chlorine to deal with, that was a good
thing.
> > > > Is there something I need to do other than run the hose into the
pond?
> > > > I usually allow it to spalsh in from a few inches above water
level,
> > > > rather than submerge the hose in the water.
> > > >
> > > > Sue W.
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > I will chip in here if you have a deep well most do the water has no
> > > o2 so by spraying it like you do you degass any bad gases and add
> > oxegen.
> > >
> > > my well is nearly 200 ft down so I have a permanent pipe set 2 ft
above
> > > the pond for filling it causes a lot of splash to mix water and air
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > John Rutz
> > > Z5 New Mexico
> > >
> > > never miss a good oportunity to shut up
> > >
> > > see my pond at:
> > >
> > > http://www.fuerjefe.com
> > >

[BenignVanilla]

"Sue Walsh" > wrote in message
om...
> Thanks All for the information, very interesting. I will try to even
> raise the hose up higher to get more of a spalsh when filling from now
> on.
>
> BTW: While I'm waiting for this pond to 'mature' should I be doing
> any 25% water changes?
<snip>

I do NO water changes. I simply top off periodically.

BV.

[BenignVanilla]

"Lee Brouillet" > wrote in message
...
> Not looking to "lock horns": there is always debate about water
> changes/topping off, kinda like the rocks/no rocks on the bottom thing.
Lots
> of folks don't do water changes and say they're just fine. But the fact
> remains that when you let water evaporate and just refill the pond, you
get
> a cumulative, concentrated build-up of goodies (and not-so-goodies). When
> you do a water change (think EXchange), you take old water out and replace
> it with new. Some folks complain that their fish aren't growing, but they
> will again when water changes are done. That's a result of growth
inhibiting
> hormones secreted by the fish: once a certain concentration is reached,
they
> stop growing so they don't overgrow their surroundings. Salt will never
> leave the pond: the concentration will remain the same, except right
before
> when you top off, in which case the ppm will be higher unless you exchange
> water. Meds will never leave the pond.
>
> Your pond is new, so exchange is not that serious at this point. But there
> may (will?) come a time when it may make the difference.
<snip>

Consider the worms out of can...

What about filtration? Are you saying your filtration system cannot clean
these compounds out of the water?

BV.

[Lee Brouillet]

To be totally honest, I don't know of any filter that can remove the
dissolved salts, the hormones, or the levels of medication in terms of which
I speak. Perhaps RO (reverse osmosis) or distillation, but certainly nothing
like we use in the ponds. When medicating, many times you have to bypass
your filtration so that you don't kill off your bio-bugs. That's why it's so
nice that many of the newer drugs are filter-friendly. But before you think
I'm speaking out of turn, to answer your question: No, my filters will not
remove growth inhibiting hormones from my pond's water. Not salt, either. Or
medications. That's why I have to do water exchanges - and I do 10-15% each
and every week, even when it rains - but that's mostly to backflush the
filter.

Lee



"BenignVanilla" > wrote in message
...
>
> Consider the worms out of can...
>
> What about filtration? Are you saying your filtration system cannot clean
> these compounds out of the water?
>
> BV.

[BenignVanilla]

"Lee Brouillet" > wrote in message
...
> To be totally honest, I don't know of any filter that can remove the
> dissolved salts, the hormones, or the levels of medication in terms of
which
> I speak. Perhaps RO (reverse osmosis) or distillation, but certainly
nothing
> like we use in the ponds. When medicating, many times you have to bypass
> your filtration so that you don't kill off your bio-bugs. That's why it's
so
> nice that many of the newer drugs are filter-friendly. But before you
think
> I'm speaking out of turn, to answer your question: No, my filters will not
> remove growth inhibiting hormones from my pond's water. Not salt, either.
Or
> medications. That's why I have to do water exchanges - and I do 10-15%
each
> and every week, even when it rains - but that's mostly to backflush the
> filter.
<snip>

Is there a test for the "proteins"?

BV.

[Andrew Burgess]

"BenignVanilla" > writes:


>"Lee Brouillet" > wrote in message
...
>> To be totally honest, I don't know of any filter that can remove the
>> dissolved salts, the hormones, or the levels of medication in terms of
>which
>> I speak. Perhaps RO (reverse osmosis) or distillation, but certainly
>nothing
>> like we use in the ponds. When medicating, many times you have to bypass
>> your filtration so that you don't kill off your bio-bugs. That's why it's
>so
>> nice that many of the newer drugs are filter-friendly. But before you
>think
>> I'm speaking out of turn, to answer your question: No, my filters will not
>> remove growth inhibiting hormones from my pond's water. Not salt, either.
>Or
>> medications. That's why I have to do water exchanges - and I do 10-15%
>each
>> and every week, even when it rains - but that's mostly to backflush the
>> filter.
><snip>

>Is there a test for the "proteins"?

Foaming can indicate proteins (DOC - dissolved organic compounds). There is
a gadget called a protein skimmer that uses the foaming behavior to remove
them. Basically an airstone pushes foam up a tube and whatever makes it to the
top falls into a waste container. Common in marine aquariums, supposedly more
difficult in freshwater (salt water foams easier). I read article on people
making them for their ponds.

Damn, I've got to cut down on that caffeine,,,

[Lee Brouillet]

None that we as normal folk can do! You can send a sample to a lab and the
folks in the long white coats can tell you right down to the molecules
what's in your pond, but most test kits available on the market are limited
to the environmental aspects of water.

Lee

"BenignVanilla" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Lee Brouillet" > wrote in message
> ...
> > To be totally honest, I don't know of any filter that can remove the
> > dissolved salts, the hormones, or the levels of medication in terms of
> which
> > I speak. Perhaps RO (reverse osmosis) or distillation, but certainly
> nothing
> > like we use in the ponds. When medicating, many times you have to bypass
> > your filtration so that you don't kill off your bio-bugs. That's why
it's
> so
> > nice that many of the newer drugs are filter-friendly. But before you
> think
> > I'm speaking out of turn, to answer your question: No, my filters will
not
> > remove growth inhibiting hormones from my pond's water. Not salt,
either.
> Or
> > medications. That's why I have to do water exchanges - and I do 10-15%
> each
> > and every week, even when it rains - but that's mostly to backflush the
> > filter.
> <snip>
>
> Is there a test for the "proteins"?
>
> BV.
>
>

[Lee Brouillet]

I have instructions for making a "foam fractionator" that I copied to my
hard drive and can send to you, if you'd like. It's on my growing list of
"My, wouldn't that be great to build one of these days?" things. It appears
to be relatively simple to build: it's *hiding* the damn thing that may be
troublesome.

Lee

"Andrew Burgess" > wrote in message
...
> "BenignVanilla" > writes:
>
>
> >"Lee Brouillet" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> To be totally honest, I don't know of any filter that can remove the
> >> dissolved salts, the hormones, or the levels of medication in terms of
> >which
> >> I speak. Perhaps RO (reverse osmosis) or distillation, but certainly
> >nothing
> >> like we use in the ponds. When medicating, many times you have to
bypass
> >> your filtration so that you don't kill off your bio-bugs. That's why
it's
> >so
> >> nice that many of the newer drugs are filter-friendly. But before you
> >think
> >> I'm speaking out of turn, to answer your question: No, my filters will
not
> >> remove growth inhibiting hormones from my pond's water. Not salt,
either.
> >Or
> >> medications. That's why I have to do water exchanges - and I do 10-15%
> >each
> >> and every week, even when it rains - but that's mostly to backflush the
> >> filter.
> ><snip>
>
> >Is there a test for the "proteins"?
>
> Foaming can indicate proteins (DOC - dissolved organic compounds). There
is
> a gadget called a protein skimmer that uses the foaming behavior to remove
> them. Basically an airstone pushes foam up a tube and whatever makes it to
the
> top falls into a waste container. Common in marine aquariums, supposedly
more
> difficult in freshwater (salt water foams easier). I read article on
people
> making them for their ponds.
>
> Damn, I've got to cut down on that caffeine,,,
>

[BenignVanilla]

"Lee Brouillet" > wrote in message
...
> I have instructions for making a "foam fractionator" that I copied to my
> hard drive and can send to you, if you'd like. It's on my growing list of
> "My, wouldn't that be great to build one of these days?" things. It
appears
> to be relatively simple to build: it's *hiding* the damn thing that may be
> troublesome.
<snip>

My concern with the water changes, is that it violates the prime directive,
STOP MESSING WITH THE DAMN POND!!!. I figure if I am changing water on a
regular basis, I am more prone to have a problem. I dunno. Maybe it's my
newbie ignorance, but my guy tells me to leave it alone. And top off on a
regular basis


BV.

[Lee Brouillet]

I had a nagging thought I checked on: activated charcoal will remove the
hormones/pheromones. It will also remove residual medication (which is why
you must remove any activated charcoal from your system prior to doing PP or
other meds). It *won't* remove salt. Activated charcoal is used at the rate
of 3 lbs. per 1,000 gallons of pond, replaced every 3 months. I like to put
mine in knee-high stockings, tied at the top (double stockings is not a bad
idea). Queen size have the most "give". The "bags" need to be placed in a
high volume flow area (I keep mine in the waterfall box), and you should
remember to knead them every few weeks to keep the biofilm from getting too
thick (clogging the pores) thereby preventing the charcoal from being able
to absorb.

Lee

"BenignVanilla" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Lee Brouillet" > wrote in message
> ...
> > To be totally honest, I don't know of any filter that can remove the
> > dissolved salts, the hormones, or the levels of medication in terms of
> which
> > I speak. Perhaps RO (reverse osmosis) or distillation, but certainly
> nothing
> > like we use in the ponds. When medicating, many times you have to bypass
> > your filtration so that you don't kill off your bio-bugs. That's why
it's
> so
> > nice that many of the newer drugs are filter-friendly. But before you
> think
> > I'm speaking out of turn, to answer your question: No, my filters will
not
> > remove growth inhibiting hormones from my pond's water. Not salt,
either.
> Or
> > medications. That's why I have to do water exchanges - and I do 10-15%
> each
> > and every week, even when it rains - but that's mostly to backflush the
> > filter.
> <snip>
>
> Is there a test for the "proteins"?
>
> BV.
>
>

[Andrew Burgess]

"BenignVanilla" > writes:

>My concern with the water changes, is that it violates the prime directive,
>STOP MESSING WITH THE DAMN POND!!!. I figure if I am changing water on a
>regular basis, I am more prone to have a problem. I dunno. Maybe it's my
>newbie ignorance, but my guy tells me to leave it alone. And top off on a
>regular basis

I have an automatic changer, just a 1 gal/hr drip irrigation emmiter. No
worries about chlorine at that rate. You do need an overflow though...

[john rutz]

BenignVanilla wrote:
> "Lee Brouillet" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>I have instructions for making a "foam fractionator" that I copied to my
>>hard drive and can send to you, if you'd like. It's on my growing list of
>>"My, wouldn't that be great to build one of these days?" things. It
>
> appears
>
>>to be relatively simple to build: it's *hiding* the damn thing that may be
>>troublesome.
>
> <snip>
>
> My concern with the water changes, is that it violates the prime directive,
> STOP MESSING WITH THE DAMN POND!!!. I figure if I am changing water on a
> regular basis, I am more prone to have a problem. I dunno. Maybe it's my
> newbie ignorance, but my guy tells me to leave it alone. And top off on a
> regular basis
>
>
> BV.
>
>

BV

when I had 150 fish in my pond i did water changes every week, now that
I only have 10 i still do them, its just one of those "maintenance"
things like cleaning pump intakes or filters.

the way I do it is when the evaporation has necisitated a top off then
I drain out another 500 gallons or so I figure that way I get more of
the disoved solids and other builtup whatevers per gallon, then refill
with the new water. this gives me roughly 1000 gal of new fresh water a
week good fr the fish and good for the plants
--





John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

never miss a good oportunity to shut up

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com