Re: Confused here!!!

[Donald Kerns]

Akomic wrote:

> People are telling me that I am overstocked... but when I bought the
> tank (from a very good fish place), I was informed that the tank would
> easily support 2 or 3 fish.
>
> Now, I was given an equation to work out... I forget the details
> unfortunatley... but it was something like 1 ltr per cm of fish...?
>
> My fish are currently small, and I am aware that they will grow
> fairly large and require re-tanking... but can someone please explain
> why 3 little fish (no more than 12 cm total cumulitive length) are not
> able to live in my £60+ tank???

Goldfish are considerably dirtier (meaning they produce more poop ) than
other fish.

The typically quoted rule of thumb around here is 10 gallons per
(gold)fish. I like 10 gallons per fish or 3 gallons per inch whichever
is larger. (You can even poke about and find people who want 40 or 100
gallons per fish for "natural conditions.")

Several people here (myself included) have kept goldfish at 5
gallons/fish and lower. At least Gunther and myself have noticed that
our personal work AND problems with the goldfish are much less at 10
gal/fish.

Bottom line, 12 cm is roughly 5 inches, which would be 30 gallons at the
high end or 15 gallons (~60L) at the low end. So your fish will
survive, but you'll be working harder (more water changes) and your
fish won't be as healthy as they should/could be. But it may allow you
time to save pennies to buy a 30 gallon before they grow too much...

Not advocating keeping the fish in your current conditions, just trying
to tell it like it is...

-D
--
"Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving
that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the
proof." -Galbraith's Law

[Akomic]

Thanks loads for your reply... THAT makes sense!!!

I'll keep an eye on the water quality. I had it checked a couple of weeks
ago (2 months into it's existence) and the levels etc were perfect... but
I'll make sure I regularly change 1/4 of the water... how often do you
recommend? Weekly? Fortnightly? Monthly?

The situation is basically that I have the tank that I have... and nothing
can change about it... so I'm having to work with what I've got!

I'm happy to work at it... and the kids in my class enjoy looking after
tham, so things are going well!!!

I'll keep you informed as to when you can all stick your tongue out at me
and say 'Told you so!!!'

Thanks again,

Jon


"Donald Kerns" > wrote in message
...
> Akomic wrote:
>
> > People are telling me that I am overstocked... but when I bought the
> > tank (from a very good fish place), I was informed that the tank would
> > easily support 2 or 3 fish.
> >
> > Now, I was given an equation to work out... I forget the details
> > unfortunatley... but it was something like 1 ltr per cm of fish...?
> >
> > My fish are currently small, and I am aware that they will grow
> > fairly large and require re-tanking... but can someone please explain
> > why 3 little fish (no more than 12 cm total cumulitive length) are not
> > able to live in my £60+ tank???
>
> Goldfish are considerably dirtier (meaning they produce more poop ) than
> other fish.
>
> The typically quoted rule of thumb around here is 10 gallons per
> (gold)fish. I like 10 gallons per fish or 3 gallons per inch whichever
> is larger. (You can even poke about and find people who want 40 or 100
> gallons per fish for "natural conditions.")
>
> Several people here (myself included) have kept goldfish at 5
> gallons/fish and lower. At least Gunther and myself have noticed that
> our personal work AND problems with the goldfish are much less at 10
> gal/fish.
>
> Bottom line, 12 cm is roughly 5 inches, which would be 30 gallons at the
> high end or 15 gallons (~60L) at the low end. So your fish will
> survive, but you'll be working harder (more water changes) and your
> fish won't be as healthy as they should/could be. But it may allow you
> time to save pennies to buy a 30 gallon before they grow too much...
>
> Not advocating keeping the fish in your current conditions, just trying
> to tell it like it is...
>
> -D
> --
> "Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving
> that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the
> proof." -Galbraith's Law

[[email protected]]

salt wont touch argulus.
those little fish are dirty and they will get BIG ... tanks are controlled sewers and
the more water per fish, the better they grow, the healthier they are. spend the
money now, or spend it on meds later. Ingrid

"Akomic" > wrote:

>My fish are currently small, and I am aware that they will grow fairly
>large and require re-tanking... but can someone please explain why 3 little
>fish (no more than 12 cm total cumulitive length) are not able to live in my
>£60+ tank???
>
>Many thanks,
>
>Jon
>



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Akomic]

Why is everyone so aggresive on here?

And... why do you feel the need to call my pets dirty?

I came on here asking for information... instead, I seem to have stumbled
across a few helpful people, but the majority of people seem to be
intollerant and biggoted regarding fish care! I do not have thousands of
pounds to spend on a fish tank with all the latest mod cons... what I do
have is a fairly expensive tank, for what are, to all intents and purposes,
cheap pets!

The simple truth of the matter is that when people come in with questions...
they deserve the respect for sensible answers! I've already said that I
know my fish will grow... and the reply to that is YOUR FISH WILL GROW!!!

I tell you what... you go and buy me a million pound aquarium, and then you
can answer my questions without smart arsed sarcasm!!!




> wrote in message
...
> salt wont touch argulus.
> those little fish are dirty and they will get BIG ... tanks are controlled
sewers and
> the more water per fish, the better they grow, the healthier they are.
spend the
> money now, or spend it on meds later. Ingrid
>
> "Akomic" > wrote:
>
> >My fish are currently small, and I am aware that they will grow fairly
> >large and require re-tanking... but can someone please explain why 3
little
> >fish (no more than 12 cm total cumulitive length) are not able to live in
my
> >£60+ tank???
> >
> >Many thanks,
> >
> >Jon
> >
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Donald Kerns]

Akomic wrote:

> I'll keep an eye on the water quality. I had it checked a couple of
> weeks ago (2 months into it's existence) and the levels etc were
> perfect...

At this point in the aquarium's existance your primary two parameters to
check should be nitrATEs and perhaps pH.

You should adapt your water change regieme so that the nitrAtes stay
under (a religious number here) say 20 ppm.

(Everybody will agree that lower than 20 is healthy, some will go much
higher than that)

If you check the nitrates every week and they are climbing, do more
frequent water changes.

This could make a neat little science project depending on the grade
level...

> but I'll make sure I regularly change 1/4 of the water...
> how often do you
> recommend? Weekly? Fortnightly? Monthly?

25% per week should make for happy fish. If you're in a classroom
situation, perhaps you could charge some of your students with being
"fish monitors."

> The situation is basically that I have the tank that I have... and
> nothing can change about it... so I'm having to work with what I've
> got!

If things get bad, you could send one of the fish home with a student...

> I'm happy to work at it... and the kids in my class enjoy looking
> after tham, so things are going well!!!

Beware of overfeeding. Extra food will make the tank even dirtier. About
as much as the fish can eat in 3 minutes, twice a day.

>
> I'll keep you informed as to when you can all stick your tongue out at
> me and say 'Told you so!!!'

Keep in mind that the audience are all levels from amateur to near
professional (and some professional) fishkeepers. We care about the
critters.

Most of the folks here get REALLY frustrated. We care about the fish and
there are a lot of folks/pet shops/TV shows that have goldfish in 1
gallon bowls. And they people wonder why they need new fish every
couple of weeks...

-D
--
"There is nothing so strong as gentleness, and there is nothing so
gentle as real strength." St. Francis de Sales

[Gail Futoran]

"Akomic" > wrote in message
...
> Why is everyone so aggresive on here?

They're not. Only two people responsed so far (based on
what has appeared on my server); neither poster did anything
other than try to be helpful. Both Donald and Ingrid are
frequent posters here who are very knowledgeable about fish
and spend a lot of uncompensated time helping people. If
you don't like someone's style of writing, ignore them. But
attack them? That makes zero sense and shows extremely poor
netiquette.

> And... why do you feel the need to call my pets dirty?

Fish ARE dirty. So are cats. So are people. And dogs.
Etc. We clean up after them/ourselves. I thought the other
posters explained the reasons for all that rather well.

> I came on here asking for information...

And - you got it.

instead, I seem to have stumbled
> across a few helpful people, but the majority of people
seem to be
> intollerant and biggoted regarding fish care!

Posters here tend to fall into two categories: fish lovers
or trolls. Trolls might be intolerant or bigoted, but I
haven't noticed any trolls answering your questions.

People have different writing styles. You have to be
careful not to ascribe motive or mood to a person when you
have very little information about them other than a few
words on a monitor. If you had read the newsgroup before
posting, you would have learned who are the regular posters
and what is their typical writing style. And you wouldn't
have misunderstood what was intended to be helpful.

I do not have thousands of
> pounds to spend on a fish tank with all the latest mod
cons...

No one suggested you do that. Both Donald & Ingrid made the
point that *at some point* you're going to have to give your
fish more space. The alternative is let them die well
before their time. That's your choice. Unfortunately the
latter is what happens to most goldfish, as Donald noted in
his second post.

what I do
> have is a fairly expensive tank, for what are, to all
intents and purposes,
> cheap pets!

If anyone here really hated what you were doing with your
fish, they wouldn't have bothered trying to help you. Try
looking at it that way, rather than taking offense over a
short post written by someone you don't know whose advice is
given freely.

> The simple truth of the matter is that when people come in
with questions...
> they deserve the respect for sensible answers!

People like Ingrid & Donald who spend a lot of time trying
to help others with their fish problems deserve to be given
respect and the benefit of the doubt regarding writing
style.

Don't take my word for it; do a google search in the aquaria
newsgroups on their usernames. We're talking on the order of
hundreds of lines worth of posts in most months (at a wild
guess; I just did a cursory search), all for the love of pet
fish.
http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search?hl=en

I've already said that I
> know my fish will grow... and the reply to that is YOUR
FISH WILL GROW!!!

Sometimes people will repeat something for emphasis, or to
provide a context for their response to try to minimize
misunderstanding.

> I tell you what... you go and buy me a million pound
aquarium, and then you
> can answer my questions without smart arsed sarcasm!!!

The only disrespect I've seen in this thread is coming from
you.

My post was meant to be helpful but you should feel free to
take it any way you like.

Gail

[Magic menagerie]

HI! The joys of goldfish... so I'm finding out... We started out with a 10
gallon tank and 5 goldfishies. They were little and very cute. The store
clerk said we'd be fine with 5 in the tank. What we were to learn over the
next year are several facts:

1) Goldfish are "dirtier fish". This means that they seem to produce more
excrement and ammonia than other fish do. It's for this reason that they say
to not mix goldfish with others - as the ammonia levels will kill of the
others..

2) Yes, they grow - and FAST! We have tropical tiger barbs too, but the gold
fish have grown much faster than the barbs ever will. In fact, in a pond,
goldies can get up to 15" or so inches! YIKES!

3) As the fish grow, they "go" more and the 10 gallon tank that once only
needed claening once a week, becomes 2-3 times a week as the 5 fish grew!

4)As the fish become too big for their tank, they will show signs of stress and
begin to breathe faster as their own excrement and cramped conditions "get to
them". Once we moved our fish from a 10 gal to a 50 gal tank, they became less
stressed and stopped "panting" all the time!

5) A store clerk that gets paid minimum wage can not be expected to know as
much as Jo-Ann or Ingrid, who have spent years studying fishies (see Ingrid's
site). Most store clerks know only "enough to be dangerous".

6) You can find less expensive larger tanks and accessories at yard sales,
private sales, or even at fish stores clearing out old stock. We got our 50
gallon tank and pump for $7!

7) While the caring adviceyou receive at this site may not be in time to save
your dying fishies, it was given with the best intentions...

Other observations I have noticed, but can't count as a fact are... Teachers
here usually have a single beta fish in the classroom. AND, teachers are
usually of a nicer demeanor. I hope none of your students sees how you express
yourself online...

Have fun learning about goldfish!

[Donald Kerns]

Magic menagerie wrote:

> HI! The joys of goldfish... so I'm finding out... We started out with
> a 10
> gallon tank and 5 goldfishies. They were little and very cute. The
> store
> clerk said we'd be fine with 5 in the tank. What we were to learn
> over the next year are several facts:

Brava!

This one goes into the "keepers" file!

Heck, I'll probably bookmark the google page to point out to the next...
5 or 6 people who take issue with the advice "please don't keep 12
"little goldfish" in a 10 gallon tank."

-D
--
"Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving
that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the
proof." -Galbraith's Law