baby moor dying! ?

[Geezer From The Freezer]

My little baby moor has had ich for the last 3 days or so.
Treated on Saturday with a 0.15 solution of salt and upped
that on Monday to 0.3. I have also raised the temp to 82degrees.
Today when I went home for lunch I noticed him sat at the bottom of
the tank in the corner. He seemed to be breathing heavily.

The other fish in the tank seems quite fine. I decided to do a 20% water
change there and then and add some ich remedy. So I now have a tank
with a 0.24 solution of salt and some ich remedy. Is there any chance this
little fish can live - he was still sat at the bottom of the tank in the
corner, with his dorsal fin down.

:(

[Donald Kerns]

Geezer From The Freezer wrote:

> My little baby moor has had ich for the last 3 days or so.
> Treated on Saturday with a 0.15 solution of salt and upped
> that on Monday to 0.3. I have also raised the temp to 82degrees.
> Today when I went home for lunch I noticed him sat at the bottom of
> the tank in the corner. He seemed to be breathing heavily.
>
> The other fish in the tank seems quite fine. I decided to do a 20%
> water change there and then and add some ich remedy. So I now have a
> tank with a 0.24 solution of salt and some ich remedy. Is there any
> chance this little fish can live - he was still sat at the bottom of
> the tank in the corner, with his dorsal fin down.
>
> :(

Did you up the aeration in the tank? 82 deg F doesn't hold as much O2 as
lower temps do.

And while I don't KNOW, I believe that 82 deg F isn't warm enough...

In the paper "Ich (White Spot Disease)" by R.M. Durborow et al of the
Southern Regional Aquaculture Center it says

"The amount of time needed for Ich to complete its life cycle is
temperature dependent. Ich commonly infects fish between 68-77 deg F,
but infections do occur at colder temperatures (as low as 33 deg F).

TYPICALLY, ich cannot reproduce properly at water temperatures above 85
deg F. (Got that folks 85 deg F!!!). However, in a case in central
Florida, Ich was responsible for killing fish at 92 deg F."

If it were ME at this point, I'd isolate the fish in a tub, with 1
aquarium salt as per instructions, lots of aeration and rely on the
anti-ich med following the directions on thekrib website...

http://www.thekrib.com/Diseases/ich.html

-D
--
"Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving
that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the
proof." -Galbraith's Law

[Mel]

I've used the Interpet ich med before and it was great. The spots
dissapeared within 24 hours. Salt at 1 tablespoon per gallon (for 2 weeks)
usually clears it up alone so if you haven't tried that much then it might
be worth a try.
Also turn your tank lights out and cover the tank in a towel or sheet or
something too as the parasites don't like the dark. Add loads of extra
aeration too because of the high temps.
It could be the case that if this one fish isn't responding to treatment,
and the others are all fine, that there is some other underlying problem
causing the stress which in turn is causing the ich. Hopefully this isn't
the case though.
Good luck and I hope the little fella makes it.
Mel.


"Donald Kerns" > wrote in message
...
> Geezer From The Freezer wrote:
>
> > My little baby moor has had ich for the last 3 days or so.
> > Treated on Saturday with a 0.15 solution of salt and upped
> > that on Monday to 0.3. I have also raised the temp to 82degrees.
> > Today when I went home for lunch I noticed him sat at the bottom of
> > the tank in the corner. He seemed to be breathing heavily.
> >
> > The other fish in the tank seems quite fine. I decided to do a 20%
> > water change there and then and add some ich remedy. So I now have a
> > tank with a 0.24 solution of salt and some ich remedy. Is there any
> > chance this little fish can live - he was still sat at the bottom of
> > the tank in the corner, with his dorsal fin down.
> >
> > :(
>
> Did you up the aeration in the tank? 82 deg F doesn't hold as much O2 as
> lower temps do.
>
> And while I don't KNOW, I believe that 82 deg F isn't warm enough...
>
> In the paper "Ich (White Spot Disease)" by R.M. Durborow et al of the
> Southern Regional Aquaculture Center it says
>
> "The amount of time needed for Ich to complete its life cycle is
> temperature dependent. Ich commonly infects fish between 68-77 deg F,
> but infections do occur at colder temperatures (as low as 33 deg F).
>
> TYPICALLY, ich cannot reproduce properly at water temperatures above 85
> deg F. (Got that folks 85 deg F!!!). However, in a case in central
> Florida, Ich was responsible for killing fish at 92 deg F."
>
> If it were ME at this point, I'd isolate the fish in a tub, with 1
> aquarium salt as per instructions, lots of aeration and rely on the
> anti-ich med following the directions on thekrib website...
>
> http://www.thekrib.com/Diseases/ich.html
>
> -D
> --
> "Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving
> that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the
> proof." -Galbraith's Law

[T]

Hey Geezer, if your little feller don't make it. I will let you have my
feller... That is if you live in my area... I still have many fish to find
homes for...


Timmer..



"Mel" > wrote in message
...
>
> I've used the Interpet ich med before and it was great. The spots
> dissapeared within 24 hours. Salt at 1 tablespoon per gallon (for 2 weeks)
> usually clears it up alone so if you haven't tried that much then it might
> be worth a try.
> Also turn your tank lights out and cover the tank in a towel or sheet or
> something too as the parasites don't like the dark. Add loads of extra
> aeration too because of the high temps.
> It could be the case that if this one fish isn't responding to treatment,
> and the others are all fine, that there is some other underlying problem
> causing the stress which in turn is causing the ich. Hopefully this isn't
> the case though.
> Good luck and I hope the little fella makes it.
> Mel.
>
>
> "Donald Kerns" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Geezer From The Freezer wrote:
> >
> > > My little baby moor has had ich for the last 3 days or so.
> > > Treated on Saturday with a 0.15 solution of salt and upped
> > > that on Monday to 0.3. I have also raised the temp to 82degrees.
> > > Today when I went home for lunch I noticed him sat at the bottom of
> > > the tank in the corner. He seemed to be breathing heavily.
> > >
> > > The other fish in the tank seems quite fine. I decided to do a 20%
> > > water change there and then and add some ich remedy. So I now have a
> > > tank with a 0.24 solution of salt and some ich remedy. Is there any
> > > chance this little fish can live - he was still sat at the bottom of
> > > the tank in the corner, with his dorsal fin down.
> > >
> > > :(
> >
> > Did you up the aeration in the tank? 82 deg F doesn't hold as much O2 as
> > lower temps do.
> >
> > And while I don't KNOW, I believe that 82 deg F isn't warm enough...
> >
> > In the paper "Ich (White Spot Disease)" by R.M. Durborow et al of the
> > Southern Regional Aquaculture Center it says
> >
> > "The amount of time needed for Ich to complete its life cycle is
> > temperature dependent. Ich commonly infects fish between 68-77 deg F,
> > but infections do occur at colder temperatures (as low as 33 deg F).
> >
> > TYPICALLY, ich cannot reproduce properly at water temperatures above 85
> > deg F. (Got that folks 85 deg F!!!). However, in a case in central
> > Florida, Ich was responsible for killing fish at 92 deg F."
> >
> > If it were ME at this point, I'd isolate the fish in a tub, with 1
> > aquarium salt as per instructions, lots of aeration and rely on the
> > anti-ich med following the directions on thekrib website...
> >
> > http://www.thekrib.com/Diseases/ich.html
> >
> > -D
> > --
> > "Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving
> > that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the
> > proof." -Galbraith's Law
>
>

[[email protected]]

heat and salt OR,
anti-ich meds but NOT heat and salt too.
Ingrid

Geezer From The Freezer > wrote:

>My little baby moor has had ich for the last 3 days or so.
>Treated on Saturday with a 0.15 solution of salt and upped
>that on Monday to 0.3. I have also raised the temp to 82degrees.
>Today when I went home for lunch I noticed him sat at the bottom of
>the tank in the corner. He seemed to be breathing heavily.
>
>The other fish in the tank seems quite fine. I decided to do a 20% water
>change there and then and add some ich remedy. So I now have a tank
>with a 0.24 solution of salt and some ich remedy. Is there any chance this
>little fish can live - he was still sat at the bottom of the tank in the
>corner, with his dorsal fin down.
>
>:(



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Geezer From The Freezer]

Well I stopped off at the LFS and bought a much better air pump and
stone. Attached that. Heat was at 86degrees. Fishy was hanging by
the filter intake, I could see he was on his way out.

Poor little fella died - my first fish death. I was gutted.
girlfriend was even worse. Gonna bury the little fella tonight.

Still have the 2 adults in the main tank and another baby in the
quarantine tank - hope he will be ok. He has shown signs of very mild
ich (you can hardly see the spots - I know that doesn't mean he hasn't
got it).

I will be doing 10% water changes and replacing with 10% new water
and 1 tablespoon additional salt (10% = 1 gallon in the quarantine).

T - I believe you are in Canada - I'm in England. Thanks for the offer
most nice. Also thank you Ingrid and Mel for the suggestions.

My girlfriend was asking me if we could save a one eyed more in the shop.
He is a little bigger than the baby, but I'm not sure it's a good idea,
especially as there has been an ich outbreak in that tank - suggestions?

[Geezer From The Freezer]

Another point i didn't mention. Both fish seem to have/had white lips.
Not cotton wool looking, just white - what can that be?

[T]

I am a Canadian in California for the time being.. Not for much longer
though... To bad you were not closer, I am certain you would have liked my
fellow...

Timmer...
"Geezer From The Freezer" > wrote in message
...
>
> Another point i didn't mention. Both fish seem to have/had white lips.
> Not cotton wool looking, just white - what can that be?

[[email protected]]

thickened slime coat. Ingrid

Geezer From The Freezer > wrote:

>
>Another point i didn't mention. Both fish seem to have/had white lips.
>Not cotton wool looking, just white - what can that be?



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Geezer From The Freezer]

Ingrid, what would cause this, the additional salt or the heat?

[[email protected]]

when you run the heat up (only 78oF) you risk stimulating other kinds of parasites to
explode in population. I simply never ever treat ich with heat and/or salt. it is
so simple to use quick cure for ich since my tanks are at higher temp. ich is a
problem of brand new fish, a problem of sharp temp drops, of high stress. otherwise,
there should never be ich in a tank.
follow the procedures for quarantining new fish ... for at least a month and you wont
introduce ich into main tanks. Ingrid



Geezer From The Freezer > wrote:
>Well I stopped off at the LFS and bought a much better air pump and
>stone. Attached that. Heat was at 86degrees. Fishy was hanging by
>the filter intake, I could see he was on his way out.
>
>Poor little fella died - my first fish death. I was gutted.
>girlfriend was even worse. Gonna bury the little fella tonight.
>
>Still have the 2 adults in the main tank and another baby in the
>quarantine tank - hope he will be ok. He has shown signs of very mild
>ich (you can hardly see the spots - I know that doesn't mean he hasn't
>got it).
>
>I will be doing 10% water changes and replacing with 10% new water
>and 1 tablespoon additional salt (10% = 1 gallon in the quarantine).

>My girlfriend was asking me if we could save a one eyed more in the shop.
>He is a little bigger than the baby, but I'm not sure it's a good idea,
>especially as there has been an ich outbreak in that tank - suggestions?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Geezer From The Freezer]

Ingrid,

Yep - he is in quarantine - wouldn't risk him being put in with
the two big ones. Unfortunately I cannot get Quick Cure in the UK :(

I do have Interpet White Spot...I could always gradually water change
all of the salt out...

[Donald Kerns]

Geezer From The Freezer wrote:

> Unfortunately I cannot get Quick Cure in the UK

Look for something that has the same ingredients and concentrations...

-Donald
--
"Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving
that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the
proof." -Galbraith's Law

[George Thompson]

> I do have Interpet White Spot...I could always gradually water change
> all of the salt out...

So did I. Didn't do the fish any good - I think mine was too far
gone. When I took him back to the LFS to have a look, as soon as he
stuck him under a tank light, the whitespot lit up like a christmas
tree. No wonder he was so poorly.

He was a black moor, bought from PetSmart or is it PetsAtHome? Either
which way they were helpful and gave me the treatment free of charge
(since it was newly purchased)

But after recent visits to the store, most of their fish have white
spot 90% of the time. Unfortunately most of the stores have one
filter for all the tanks. Disease spreads like wildfire and even a
healthy fish gets it quite quickly. Combined with the attitude of
"well, they've just been brought in today, we can sell them tommorrow"
attitude, weekly stocking of tanks and constant movement = stress to
fish, it's a wonder any survive.

that's my .02 <insert currency here>

ps, I had to buy a fish and put it to sleep myself due to the fact it
was swimming sideways, torn fins, large boils on its side and had skin
flaps over it's eyes. It seemed to either have bones sticking out of
its side, or thick white paracites. It looked pitiful. I told the
bloke and he said "it's under treatment" I queried further and was
told "for white spot". I laughed, told him I'd deal with it and he
quite reasonably knocked 10% off. I only go in there these days for
rescue missions. Poor thing, why keep something in as much misery as
that for the sake of 80p? I don't think there was anything else I
could have done except that cup in the freezer.

[Donald Kerns]

George Thompson wrote:

> But after recent visits to the store, most of their fish have white
> spot 90% of the time. Unfortunately most of the stores have one
> filter for all the tanks. Disease spreads like wildfire and even a
> healthy fish gets it quite quickly.

GGGGRRRRRrrrrrrrrr.

How about a nice UV unit on the filter output at least?

Nah, that would play with the accounting columns too much. Cheaper just
to bring in more "livestock."

George, please don't give them anymore of your money. And let the store
manager and district manager (and whoever higher up you can find) know
why you're not.

Heck, you can even tell them _I'm_ not going to give them any of MY
money either... ;-)

They've become a member of the axis of the strongly vexing. An
international pet store pariah they are.

-D
--
"Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving
that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the
proof." -Galbraith's Law

[Geezer From The Freezer]

Donald Kerns wrote:
>
> Geezer From The Freezer wrote:
>
> > Unfortunately I cannot get Quick Cure in the UK
>
> Look for something that has the same ingredients and concentrations...


Donald, any idea what ingredients are in it?

[[email protected]]

parasites.

Geezer From The Freezer > wrote:

>
>Ingrid, what would cause this, the additional salt or the heat?



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

anything that is a formalin (formaldehyde) and malachite green combo is Quick Cure.
and you can basically order anything online. Ingrid

Geezer From The Freezer > wrote:

>
>Ingrid,
>
>Yep - he is in quarantine - wouldn't risk him being put in with
>the two big ones. Unfortunately I cannot get Quick Cure in the UK :(
>
>I do have Interpet White Spot...I could always gradually water change
>all of the salt out...



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Donald Kerns]

Geezer From The Freezer wrote:
>
> Donald Kerns wrote:
>>
>> Geezer From The Freezer wrote:
>>
>> > Unfortunately I cannot get Quick Cure in the UK
>>
>> Look for something that has the same ingredients and
>> concentrations...
>
> Donald, any idea what ingredients are in it?

Ingrid posted them up thread.

A google search on "quick cure ich" shows that they are Formaldehyde
(aka formalin) and Malachite Green.

I recommend http://www.thekrib.com/Diseases/ich.html to those trying to
treat ich.

-Donald
--
"Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving
that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the
proof." -Galbraith's Law