How long in the bag

[Kodiak]

Bought a small feeder goldfish at the petstore, but was in transit for 5
hours.
Is 5 hours too long to stay in a bag? The fish is about 1" long, the bag had
about 4 cups of water.
I put him in the tank, fish seems ok now, but not moving around like the
other ones. He is not eating
either, does it usually take a few days to adjust? I did soak the bag for
30min, then I let in some water,
soaked it another 5min, let in some more water, etc etc... finally let the
fish go in the tank about 45minutes
later.
....Kodiak

[[email protected]]

no, but that recommendation by pet stores and GF books to mix tank with bag water is
deadly. you can float the bag to equalize the water temp, but the minute that bag is
opened need to get the fish out of that water and into the tank.
polyaqua is soothing to the gills. give it some time. usually takes about a week or
so to overcome fried gills. Ingrid

"Kodiak" > wrote:

>Bought a small feeder goldfish at the petstore, but was in transit for 5
>hours.
>Is 5 hours too long to stay in a bag? The fish is about 1" long, the bag had
>about 4 cups of water.
>I put him in the tank, fish seems ok now, but not moving around like the
>other ones. He is not eating
>either, does it usually take a few days to adjust? I did soak the bag for
>30min, then I let in some water,
>soaked it another 5min, let in some more water, etc etc... finally let the
>fish go in the tank about 45minutes
>later.
>...Kodiak
>



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Geezer From Freezer]

wrote:
>
> no, but that recommendation by pet stores and GF books to mix tank with bag water is
> deadly. you can float the bag to equalize the water temp, but the minute that bag is
> opened need to get the fish out of that water and into the tank.
> polyaqua is soothing to the gills. give it some time. usually takes about a week or
> so to overcome fried gills. Ingrid

oh - I've always temp matched then did the "adding tank water" bit gradually
too.

[Jan Sacharuk]

In article >, wrote:
> no, but that recommendation by pet stores and GF books to mix tank with bag water is
> deadly. you can float the bag to equalize the water temp, but the minute that bag is
> opened need to get the fish out of that water and into the tank.

That's interesting. Why is the partial water add a problem?

JS

--
========================= ========================
Jan Sacharuk Member in Good Standing of The Discordian Solidarity
Turn on viewing of the X-Geek-Code header to see my Geek Code
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"This is a dumb world. In my world, there are people in chains,
and we can ride them like ponies." - Evil Willow, BtVS

[Kodiak]

Wow, every store i've been to says to add a bit of tank water
to the bag before letting them go. Even the bags themselves
have instructions on them. The only thing they say is not to let
the bag water loose into your tank (avoid contamination from
petstore water). I will take your word for it Ingrid, but can you
please elaborate on the theory? PH crash in the bag?

You mentioned 1week to recover from fried gills, do you really think
i fried my poor fishies gills from only 5 hours of transport? How can
you safely ship any fish by UPS or FEDEX then? Must need a big huge
bag of water? What is polyaqua, can you recommend a brand?

....Kodiak


"Jan Sacharuk" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
wrote:
> > no, but that recommendation by pet stores and GF books to mix tank with
bag water is
> > deadly. you can float the bag to equalize the water temp, but the
minute that bag is
> > opened need to get the fish out of that water and into the tank.
>
> That's interesting. Why is the partial water add a problem?
>
> JS
>
> --
> ========================= ========================
> Jan Sacharuk Member in Good Standing of The Discordian Solidarity
> Turn on viewing of the X-Geek-Code header to see my Geek Code
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> "This is a dumb world. In my world, there are people in chains,
> and we can ride them like ponies." - Evil Willow, BtVS

[Vissy Dartae]

"Kodiak" > wrote in message >...
> Wow, every store i've been to says to add a bit of tank water
> to the bag before letting them go. Even the bags themselves
> have instructions on them. The only thing they say is not to let
> the bag water loose into your tank (avoid contamination from
> petstore water).

I'm pretty sure that's what she means-- about the store water being
deadly if it gets into your home tank.

[Tom La Bron]

Kodiak,

You can believe what you want, but you didn't fry the gills of your fish
transporting it for 5 hours in a bag. Plus Ingrid's recommendation of
Polyaqua is a little late in the game, because this product is meant to be
used in the water as the fish is being transported from point "A" to "B".
If you read any description of the product it will say, "Specifically
formulated for hatcheries, transhippers and involved hobbyists to calm fish,
reduce losses, ease stress, minimize infection and aid in the healing
process." I use it in over populated bags of fish that I am transporting to
Fish Stores, which is what it was meant for in the first place.

There is nothing wrong with what you did except you probably should have
taken a pH reading of the water before you added your tank water to make
sure there is not a gross difference in the pH between the bag (the store
water) and your environments water chemistry. I have received shipments
from half way across the country and the lowest pH reading I have ever
recorded is 7.3pH. If you are really concerned you can put and airstone in
the bag while it floats to increase the oxygen levels in the water to help
the fish's breathing. If the pH is close to your water, then add some of
your aquarium water to the bag and do just like you did. If there is a lot
of pooh in the bag don't dump that in, but there should not be any really
problem with putting the bag water into your aquarium. Cotton pick, if
there are any bugs to worry about you are going to introducing them with the
fish any way.

I can tell you right now that that little fish is probably stressed long
before you took it home. It was probably in a bag with 3 to five gallons of
water and 300 fish, which is the way most feeders are transported. For your
own information most feeders are sold by the pound any way.

After it settles down in its new environment it will probably start feeding.
You have to remember feeders are not pampered like most of our fancy
goldfish. The are breed and feed in live ponds and scooped out and sent to
market by the pound in trucks carrying 100 -500 gallons of water and 4,000
to 6,000 or more, so the poor little guy is not use to the luxury
accommodations you are now providing, and like a foreigner in a new land it
is not familiar with the fed you are providing.

Tom L.L.
"Kodiak" > wrote in message
...
> Wow, every store i've been to says to add a bit of tank water
> to the bag before letting them go. Even the bags themselves
> have instructions on them. The only thing they say is not to let
> the bag water loose into your tank (avoid contamination from
> petstore water). I will take your word for it Ingrid, but can you
> please elaborate on the theory? PH crash in the bag?
>
> You mentioned 1week to recover from fried gills, do you really think
> i fried my poor fishies gills from only 5 hours of transport? How can
> you safely ship any fish by UPS or FEDEX then? Must need a big huge
> bag of water? What is polyaqua, can you recommend a brand?
>
> ...Kodiak
>
>
> "Jan Sacharuk" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >,

> wrote:
> > > no, but that recommendation by pet stores and GF books to mix tank
with
> bag water is
> > > deadly. you can float the bag to equalize the water temp, but the
> minute that bag is
> > > opened need to get the fish out of that water and into the tank.
> >
> > That's interesting. Why is the partial water add a problem?
> >
> > JS
> >
> > --
> > ========================= ========================
> > Jan Sacharuk Member in Good Standing of The Discordian Solidarity
> > Turn on viewing of the X-Geek-Code header to see my Geek Code
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > "This is a dumb world. In my world, there are people in chains,
> > and we can ride them like ponies." - Evil Willow, BtVS
>
>

[Kodiak]

No, she says as soon as bag is opened (after temp equalization) fish has to
be released
immediately. She says "tank water mixed into the bag water" not bag water
into the tank.
ALthough that dosen't discount the fact that the latter is also true.
....Kodiak

"Vissy Dartae" > wrote in message
om...
> "Kodiak" > wrote in message
>...
> > Wow, every store i've been to says to add a bit of tank water
> > to the bag before letting them go. Even the bags themselves
> > have instructions on them. The only thing they say is not to let
> > the bag water loose into your tank (avoid contamination from
> > petstore water).
>
> I'm pretty sure that's what she means-- about the store water being
> deadly if it gets into your home tank.

[Kodiak]

When she said "polyaqua" I assumed that's what she meant
(using it in the bag from the petstore). Yes I agree, cooties
will get in from the fish anyhow, but better minimize the chances.
I never dump bagwater into my tank. If PH is radically different,
what can I do anyhow? Slowly add the new water into the bag
over a longer pelriod say 24 hrs? Of course I would use an airstone
in that case. I like the idea,
thanks...

PS: Fish is still having a hard time adjusting. Hasn't eaten in almost three
days now. Dorsal fin is not really clamped but not completely upright.
He seems to be in energy conservation mode. PH in the tank is 7.0, too
bad I didn't check PH in the bag.

....Kodiak

"Tom La Bron" > wrote in message
...
> Kodiak,
>
> You can believe what you want, but you didn't fry the gills of your fish
> transporting it for 5 hours in a bag. Plus Ingrid's recommendation of
> Polyaqua is a little late in the game, because this product is meant to be
> used in the water as the fish is being transported from point "A" to "B".
> If you read any description of the product it will say, "Specifically
> formulated for hatcheries, transhippers and involved hobbyists to calm
fish,
> reduce losses, ease stress, minimize infection and aid in the healing
> process." I use it in over populated bags of fish that I am transporting
to
> Fish Stores, which is what it was meant for in the first place.
>
> There is nothing wrong with what you did except you probably should have
> taken a pH reading of the water before you added your tank water to make
> sure there is not a gross difference in the pH between the bag (the store
> water) and your environments water chemistry. I have received shipments
> from half way across the country and the lowest pH reading I have ever
> recorded is 7.3pH. If you are really concerned you can put and airstone
in
> the bag while it floats to increase the oxygen levels in the water to help
> the fish's breathing. If the pH is close to your water, then add some of
> your aquarium water to the bag and do just like you did. If there is a
lot
> of pooh in the bag don't dump that in, but there should not be any really
> problem with putting the bag water into your aquarium. Cotton pick, if
> there are any bugs to worry about you are going to introducing them with
the
> fish any way.
>
> I can tell you right now that that little fish is probably stressed long
> before you took it home. It was probably in a bag with 3 to five gallons
of
> water and 300 fish, which is the way most feeders are transported. For
your
> own information most feeders are sold by the pound any way.
>
> After it settles down in its new environment it will probably start
feeding.
> You have to remember feeders are not pampered like most of our fancy
> goldfish. The are breed and feed in live ponds and scooped out and sent
to
> market by the pound in trucks carrying 100 -500 gallons of water and 4,000
> to 6,000 or more, so the poor little guy is not use to the luxury
> accommodations you are now providing, and like a foreigner in a new land
it
> is not familiar with the fed you are providing.
>
> Tom L.L.
> "Kodiak" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Wow, every store i've been to says to add a bit of tank water
> > to the bag before letting them go. Even the bags themselves
> > have instructions on them. The only thing they say is not to let
> > the bag water loose into your tank (avoid contamination from
> > petstore water). I will take your word for it Ingrid, but can you
> > please elaborate on the theory? PH crash in the bag?
> >
> > You mentioned 1week to recover from fried gills, do you really think
> > i fried my poor fishies gills from only 5 hours of transport? How can
> > you safely ship any fish by UPS or FEDEX then? Must need a big huge
> > bag of water? What is polyaqua, can you recommend a brand?
> >
> > ...Kodiak
> >
> >
> > "Jan Sacharuk" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > In article >,
>
> > wrote:
> > > > no, but that recommendation by pet stores and GF books to mix tank
> with
> > bag water is
> > > > deadly. you can float the bag to equalize the water temp, but the
> > minute that bag is
> > > > opened need to get the fish out of that water and into the tank.
> > >
> > > That's interesting. Why is the partial water add a problem?
> > >
> > > JS
> > >
> > > --
> > > ========================= ========================
> > > Jan Sacharuk Member in Good Standing of The Discordian Solidarity
> > > Turn on viewing of the X-Geek-Code header to see my Geek Code
> > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > > "This is a dumb world. In my world, there are people in chains,
> > > and we can ride them like ponies." - Evil Willow, BtVS
> >
> >
>
>

[Toni]

"Vissy Dartae" > wrote in message
om...
> "Kodiak" > wrote in message
>...
> > Wow, every store i've been to says to add a bit of tank water
> > to the bag before letting them go. Even the bags themselves
> > have instructions on them. The only thing they say is not to let
> > the bag water loose into your tank (avoid contamination from
> > petstore water).
>
> I'm pretty sure that's what she means-- about the store water being
> deadly if it gets into your home tank.


There is some sort of (recently recognized) chemistry problem with gas
exchange if the bag is opened after a too long shipping/traveling time.
*I do not remember the specifics of this*- but when the bag is opened all
the carbon dioxide (produced during travel time) is immediately replaced by
air/oxygen. I believe this affects the pH and ammonia levels in some
negative respect.

If I have fish shipped in I float them to equalize temps then pick them up
and put them in the q-tank. The sooner you get them out of the nasty
shipping water the better... just IMO.

I sure hope Ingrid comes back to correct me and explain further...


--
Toni
http://www.cearbhaill.com/goldfish.htm

[George Thompson]

Isn't C02 a heavy gas?

It's difficult to loose out of a bag unless you turn it upside down or a
heavier substance displaces it. Not sure if this is true when combined
with water.

George

Toni wrote:
> "Vissy Dartae" > wrote in message
> om...
>
>>"Kodiak" > wrote in message
>
> >...
>
>>>Wow, every store i've been to says to add a bit of tank water
>>>to the bag before letting them go. Even the bags themselves
>>>have instructions on them. The only thing they say is not to let
>>> the bag water loose into your tank (avoid contamination from
>>> petstore water).
>>
>>I'm pretty sure that's what she means-- about the store water being
>>deadly if it gets into your home tank.
>
>
>
> There is some sort of (recently recognized) chemistry problem with gas
> exchange if the bag is opened after a too long shipping/traveling time.
> *I do not remember the specifics of this*- but when the bag is opened all
> the carbon dioxide (produced during travel time) is immediately replaced by
> air/oxygen. I believe this affects the pH and ammonia levels in some
> negative respect.
>
> If I have fish shipped in I float them to equalize temps then pick them up
> and put them in the q-tank. The sooner you get them out of the nasty
> shipping water the better... just IMO.
>
> I sure hope Ingrid comes back to correct me and explain further...
>
>

[esq.]

The following notes may help answer some shipping/receiving questions, or at
least be interesting to discuss.
The subjects are being passed from hobbyist to hobbyist so I do not know where
or when they first appeared.
====
Squirt & Dump Method

Those of you who have known John Kuhns since his invention of the product
NovAqua (marketed by Kordon) have known of his now famous "squirt and dump"
method of introducing new fishes into tanks. "Famous" because the method
has now been written about in The Complete Fishkeeper. This book, written
by Joseph S. Levine is subtitled: "everything aquarium fishes need to stay
alive, healthy and happy" is well written and belongs in every aquarist's
library, and is the first book that aquarium shops should sell to new
aquarists.

The excerpt that tells about the "squirt and dump" method is reproduced here:


Adding Fish to the Tank

Traditional wisdom has it that you must float fish bags in your tank for
thirty minutes, mix bag water with tank water, and then tip the bag over
and allow the fishes to swim out on their own. I prefer, however, a radical
departure from this technique that has been successfully championed by
FISHNET member and aquacultural chemist John Kuhns. John's "dose and dump
technique," which aims to get the fish out of the bag and into the tank as
soon as possible, seems preferable any time there are not dramatic
temperature differences between bag and tank water. The method is simple:
Add a little quirt of NovAqua water conditioner to the bag, add the
appropriate dose to the tank, remove the fishes from the bag, and dump them
into the tank.

This advice will disturb many old hands at the hobby, but there is sound
reasoning behind it, and it has worked well for John and numerous retailers
and hobbyists who have followed his advice. Why? While in their shipping
bags in small volumes of water, fish are constantly excreting both ammonia
(which can build up to harmful levels) and carbon dioxide (which lowers the
pH). As soon as you open the bag at home, the CO2 begins to leave the
water, and the pH rises, initiating a chain reaction that makes any ammonia
in the bag more toxic, So as long as conditions in your tank are suitable,
the faster the fish get out of the bag and into the water, the better."

In it Levine correctly reports the reasoning behind the method. He also
reports that many old-timers may find the practice questionable, but to
paraphrase Stephen Jay Gould: the progress of aquarium keeping is impeded
less by "factual lacks" than by "conceptual locks".

At the EECHO Systems' hatchery the method is employed regularly. However,
there has been an improvement. Instead of just using a squirt of NovAqua in
the bag and the tank, a squirt of AmQuel is also used. The addition of the
AmQuel aids, of course, in the reduction of ammonia that has built-up in
the bag and in handling the spike of ammonia that often results when new
fishes are added to the tank.
=
The reasons for not floating bags are quite clear and reasonable:

(a) floated bags warm up increasing the oxygen requirements of the fishes
in them

(b) it has been suggested that there is a certain amount of atmospheric gas
exchange between the water in the bag and the air outside; this gas
exchange is stopped when the bags are immersed in water

(c) bags can be expected to carry contaminating microorganisms on their
outside surfaces; floating them allows contamination of the tank water

(d) adding water to the bags almost always increases the pH and thereby
immediately increases the toxicity of the ammonia the fishes have excreted
during their transportation

(e) aerating the bags will increase the dissolved oxygen concentration and
it will drive off some of the accumulated carbon dioxide, but as the carbon
dioxide is driven off the pH can be expected to rise, and as in (d) above,
the ammonia becomes more toxic

(f) allowing water from the bags to enter the tanks is, of course, a
totally irresponsible practice; this introduces not only the pollutants
that have accumulated in the bag water, but also disease-causing organisms
are introduced to the tank

(g) finally, keeping the fishes in their polluted shipping water longer
than necessary is a poor husbandry practice

For more information about this method please contact us at EECHO Systems:
or .

[[email protected]]

you got it ... pH swing. this is only when fish been in the bag a while, not your
basic 10 min drive home.
fish make ammonia, drives pH up
fish use oxygen, make CO2, combines with water makes carbonic acid, drives pH down
ammonia is less harmful with low pH
open bag, CO2 starts venting, pH climbs, ammonia becomes more toxic
and for some unknown reason (unknown to me) mixing new water into the bag releases
toxic gases. When Jo Ann was importing she would have to burn candles for a week
after getting new fish ... or suffer headaches and nausea. odd stuff.
anyway, opening the bag and just leaving the fish in there is the worst problem,
mixing water in is a secondary problem.
Ingrid


"Kodiak" > wrote:

>Wow, every store i've been to says to add a bit of tank water
>to the bag before letting them go. Even the bags themselves
>have instructions on them. The only thing they say is not to let
> the bag water loose into your tank (avoid contamination from
> petstore water). I will take your word for it Ingrid, but can you
>please elaborate on the theory? PH crash in the bag?
>
>You mentioned 1week to recover from fried gills, do you really think
> i fried my poor fishies gills from only 5 hours of transport? How can
>you safely ship any fish by UPS or FEDEX then? Must need a big huge
>bag of water? What is polyaqua, can you recommend a brand?
>
>...Kodiak


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

it depends.
how much water was in the bag
using "bag buddies": or any other kind of sedative is a no-no
did they put a drop of something in to bind up ammonia (a good thing)
did they flush the bag with pure oxygen or just tanked air?
all fish suffer some gill frying from transport, but opening the bag and leaving them
in the bag water does the most damage.
Polyaqua is the brand name. used for soothing gills
shipping by UPS requires chilling the fish over several days and stop feeding them
for 2 or 3 days before shipping, using ice packs to keep the water cold, adding
something to bind ammonia, using hospital grade pure oxygen to flush the water and
fill the bag. and using adequate sized bag and water for size of fish, i.e.
unpacking. Jo Ann only used UPS and Delta Dash cause they would get the fish there
in 12 hours or so altho she packed such that IF the fish were out 24 or more hours
the fish still would do well. She always had good luck with fish arriving in great
shape.... but ... she did have problems with UPS dropping the box of fish causing
internal injuries. Ingrid

"Kodiak" > wrote:
>You mentioned 1week to recover from fried gills, do you really think
> i fried my poor fishies gills from only 5 hours of transport? How can
>you safely ship any fish by UPS or FEDEX then? Must need a big huge
>bag of water? What is polyaqua, can you recommend a brand?
>
>...Kodiak


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

yup-- you got it.

"Toni" > wrote:
>There is some sort of (recently recognized) chemistry problem with gas
>exchange if the bag is opened after a too long shipping/traveling time.
>*I do not remember the specifics of this*- but when the bag is opened all
>the carbon dioxide (produced during travel time) is immediately replaced by
>air/oxygen. I believe this affects the pH and ammonia levels in some
>negative respect.
>
>If I have fish shipped in I float them to equalize temps then pick them up
>and put them in the q-tank. The sooner you get them out of the nasty
>shipping water the better... just IMO.
>
>I sure hope Ingrid comes back to correct me and explain further...



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

it goes into solution, but you are correct, CO2 and CO are both heavier than air and
sink in a room. So where should the CO2 and CO monitors go in a house? Ingrid

George Thompson > wrote:

>Isn't C02 a heavy gas?
>
>It's difficult to loose out of a bag unless you turn it upside down or a
>heavier substance displaces it. Not sure if this is true when combined
>with water.
>
>George


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Toni]

Have we permission to crosspost when appropriate??

--
Toni
http://www.cearbhaill.com/discus.htm



"esq." > wrote in message
...
> The following notes may help answer some shipping/receiving questions, or
at
> least be interesting to discuss.
> The subjects are being passed from hobbyist to hobbyist so I do not know
where
> or when they first appeared.
> ====
> Squirt & Dump Method
>
> Those of you who have known John Kuhns since his invention of the product
> NovAqua (marketed by Kordon) have known of his now famous "squirt and
dump"
> method of introducing new fishes into tanks. "Famous" because the method
> has now been written about in The Complete Fishkeeper. This book, written
> by Joseph S. Levine is subtitled: "everything aquarium fishes need to stay
> alive, healthy and happy" is well written and belongs in every aquarist's
> library, and is the first book that aquarium shops should sell to new
> aquarists.
>
> The excerpt that tells about the "squirt and dump" method is reproduced
here:
>
>
> Adding Fish to the Tank
>
> Traditional wisdom has it that you must float fish bags in your tank for
> thirty minutes, mix bag water with tank water, and then tip the bag over
> and allow the fishes to swim out on their own. I prefer, however, a
radical
> departure from this technique that has been successfully championed by
> FISHNET member and aquacultural chemist John Kuhns. John's "dose and dump
> technique," which aims to get the fish out of the bag and into the tank as
> soon as possible, seems preferable any time there are not dramatic
> temperature differences between bag and tank water. The method is simple:
> Add a little quirt of NovAqua water conditioner to the bag, add the
> appropriate dose to the tank, remove the fishes from the bag, and dump
them
> into the tank.
>
> This advice will disturb many old hands at the hobby, but there is sound
> reasoning behind it, and it has worked well for John and numerous
retailers
> and hobbyists who have followed his advice. Why? While in their shipping
> bags in small volumes of water, fish are constantly excreting both ammonia
> (which can build up to harmful levels) and carbon dioxide (which lowers
the
> pH). As soon as you open the bag at home, the CO2 begins to leave the
> water, and the pH rises, initiating a chain reaction that makes any
ammonia
> in the bag more toxic, So as long as conditions in your tank are suitable,
> the faster the fish get out of the bag and into the water, the better."
>
> In it Levine correctly reports the reasoning behind the method. He also
> reports that many old-timers may find the practice questionable, but to
> paraphrase Stephen Jay Gould: the progress of aquarium keeping is impeded
> less by "factual lacks" than by "conceptual locks".
>
> At the EECHO Systems' hatchery the method is employed regularly. However,
> there has been an improvement. Instead of just using a squirt of NovAqua
in
> the bag and the tank, a squirt of AmQuel is also used. The addition of the
> AmQuel aids, of course, in the reduction of ammonia that has built-up in
> the bag and in handling the spike of ammonia that often results when new
> fishes are added to the tank.
> =
> The reasons for not floating bags are quite clear and reasonable:
>
> (a) floated bags warm up increasing the oxygen requirements of the fishes
> in them
>
> (b) it has been suggested that there is a certain amount of atmospheric
gas
> exchange between the water in the bag and the air outside; this gas
> exchange is stopped when the bags are immersed in water
>
> (c) bags can be expected to carry contaminating microorganisms on their
> outside surfaces; floating them allows contamination of the tank water
>
> (d) adding water to the bags almost always increases the pH and thereby
> immediately increases the toxicity of the ammonia the fishes have excreted
> during their transportation
>
> (e) aerating the bags will increase the dissolved oxygen concentration and
> it will drive off some of the accumulated carbon dioxide, but as the
carbon
> dioxide is driven off the pH can be expected to rise, and as in (d) above,
> the ammonia becomes more toxic
>
> (f) allowing water from the bags to enter the tanks is, of course, a
> totally irresponsible practice; this introduces not only the pollutants
> that have accumulated in the bag water, but also disease-causing organisms
> are introduced to the tank
>
> (g) finally, keeping the fishes in their polluted shipping water longer
> than necessary is a poor husbandry practice
>
> For more information about this method please contact us at EECHO Systems:
> or .
>

[[email protected]]

no.. Jo Ann recommends it be used anytime to sooth fried gills. even after treating
with QC for example (not with the QC cause it would inactivate it).
dont worry about the pH of the bag water, only worry about pH if you have really,
really hard water and the LFS water is that much different. the rule of thumb is no
problem bring fish up to 7.0, no problem bringing them down to 7.0, it is taking em
them up or down from 7.0 ( or wherever they are). alkaline water can sometimes cause
dropsy (Noga, I think). and big pH swings can cause all kinds of problems especially
stress. If there is a concern with big pH jumps, then make the pH of the tank water
identical to the pH of the water the fish were in so when you bring them home the pH
is now matched. forget the pH in the bag. waste of time.

the airstone in that bag water is going to blow off the CO2 letting the pH jump up
and ammonia become toxic. it is just pointless to keep fish in their bags when there
is a whole tank of nice fresh water for them. GET EM OUTTA THE BAG. now, when the
fish have been in transit for more than an hour, a salt dip also helps them with
electrolyte balance and strips off cooties they may have (of course they are going
into quarantine, not with established fish). Ingrid



"Kodiak" > wrote:
>When she said "polyaqua" I assumed that's what she meant
>(using it in the bag from the petstore). Yes I agree, cooties
>will get in from the fish anyhow, but better minimize the chances.
>I never dump bagwater into my tank. If PH is radically different,
>what can I do anyhow? Slowly add the new water into the bag
>over a longer pelriod say 24 hrs? Of course I would use an airstone
>in that case. I like the idea,
>thanks...
>
>PS: Fish is still having a hard time adjusting. Hasn't eaten in almost three
>days now. Dorsal fin is not really clamped but not completely upright.
>He seems to be in energy conservation mode. PH in the tank is 7.0, too
>bad I didn't check PH in the bag.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

for the most part good advice... of course Jo Ann been saying this for the last 20-30
years (for those who bought her fish).
forget the squirt of anything. most LFS water is around 75oF and most tank water is
the same so no "equalizing temps" is needed. bring the temp UP is not a problem as
long as the bag was not shipped on ice. if yes, then having the temp of the water
lower is a good idea or floating the bag closed no more than 20 minutes or so. wanna
know if the fish are doing OK? .. look at em. if they are wobbling, GET EM OUTTA THE
BAG. Ingrid


(esq.) wrote:

>The following notes may help answer some shipping/receiving questions, or at
>least be interesting to discuss.
>The subjects are being passed from hobbyist to hobbyist so I do not know where
>or when they first appeared.
>====
>Squirt & Dump Method
>
>Those of you who have known John Kuhns since his invention of the product
>NovAqua (marketed by Kordon) have known of his now famous "squirt and dump"
>method of introducing new fishes into tanks. "Famous" because the method
>has now been written about in The Complete Fishkeeper. This book, written
>by Joseph S. Levine is subtitled: "everything aquarium fishes need to stay
>alive, healthy and happy" is well written and belongs in every aquarist's
>library, and is the first book that aquarium shops should sell to new
>aquarists.
>
>The excerpt that tells about the "squirt and dump" method is reproduced here:
>
>
> Adding Fish to the Tank
>
>Traditional wisdom has it that you must float fish bags in your tank for
>thirty minutes, mix bag water with tank water, and then tip the bag over
>and allow the fishes to swim out on their own. I prefer, however, a radical
>departure from this technique that has been successfully championed by
>FISHNET member and aquacultural chemist John Kuhns. John's "dose and dump
>technique," which aims to get the fish out of the bag and into the tank as
>soon as possible, seems preferable any time there are not dramatic
>temperature differences between bag and tank water. The method is simple:
>Add a little quirt of NovAqua water conditioner to the bag, add the
>appropriate dose to the tank, remove the fishes from the bag, and dump them
>into the tank.
>
>This advice will disturb many old hands at the hobby, but there is sound
>reasoning behind it, and it has worked well for John and numerous retailers
>and hobbyists who have followed his advice. Why? While in their shipping
>bags in small volumes of water, fish are constantly excreting both ammonia
>(which can build up to harmful levels) and carbon dioxide (which lowers the
>pH). As soon as you open the bag at home, the CO2 begins to leave the
>water, and the pH rises, initiating a chain reaction that makes any ammonia
>in the bag more toxic, So as long as conditions in your tank are suitable,
>the faster the fish get out of the bag and into the water, the better."
>
>In it Levine correctly reports the reasoning behind the method. He also
>reports that many old-timers may find the practice questionable, but to
>paraphrase Stephen Jay Gould: the progress of aquarium keeping is impeded
>less by "factual lacks" than by "conceptual locks".
>
>At the EECHO Systems' hatchery the method is employed regularly. However,
>there has been an improvement. Instead of just using a squirt of NovAqua in
>the bag and the tank, a squirt of AmQuel is also used. The addition of the
>AmQuel aids, of course, in the reduction of ammonia that has built-up in
>the bag and in handling the spike of ammonia that often results when new
>fishes are added to the tank.
>=
>The reasons for not floating bags are quite clear and reasonable:
>
>(a) floated bags warm up increasing the oxygen requirements of the fishes
>in them
>
>(b) it has been suggested that there is a certain amount of atmospheric gas
>exchange between the water in the bag and the air outside; this gas
>exchange is stopped when the bags are immersed in water
>
>(c) bags can be expected to carry contaminating microorganisms on their
>outside surfaces; floating them allows contamination of the tank water
>
>(d) adding water to the bags almost always increases the pH and thereby
>immediately increases the toxicity of the ammonia the fishes have excreted
>during their transportation
>
>(e) aerating the bags will increase the dissolved oxygen concentration and
>it will drive off some of the accumulated carbon dioxide, but as the carbon
>dioxide is driven off the pH can be expected to rise, and as in (d) above,
>the ammonia becomes more toxic
>
>(f) allowing water from the bags to enter the tanks is, of course, a
>totally irresponsible practice; this introduces not only the pollutants
>that have accumulated in the bag water, but also disease-causing organisms
>are introduced to the tank
>
>(g) finally, keeping the fishes in their polluted shipping water longer
>than necessary is a poor husbandry practice
>
>For more information about this method please contact us at EECHO Systems:
or .



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[George Thompson]

No worries in my house... I'm in a 3rd story flat, all C02 goes
downstairs to the other flats.

Plus I don't have gas (I mean of the butane variety)
wrote:
> it goes into solution, but you are correct, CO2 and CO are both heavier than air and
> sink in a room. So where should the CO2 and CO monitors go in a house? Ingrid
>
> George Thompson > wrote:
>
>
>>Isn't C02 a heavy gas?
>>
>>It's difficult to loose out of a bag unless you turn it upside down or a
>>heavier substance displaces it. Not sure if this is true when combined
>>with water.
>>
>>George
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Vissy Dartae]

> PS: Fish is still having a hard time adjusting. Hasn't eaten in almost three
> days now. Dorsal fin is not really clamped but not completely upright.
> He seems to be in energy conservation mode. PH in the tank is 7.0, too
> bad I didn't check PH in the bag.
>
> ...Kodiak

Poor little guy. Don't feel bad if you lose him-- he could be
suffering from any manner of parasite/bacteria. The main thing is
that you are trying to give him a good life.

Did you try Prazi-pro? Sometimes a bad case of flukes keeps them from
eating, and they sit still on the bottom a lot.
Prazi clears flukes quickly and with minimal stress to the fish and
filter.
www.goldfishconnection.com has it and is quick to ship. Or you might
be able to find it locally. You could also salt the water to .3% (one
tablespoon per gallon-- dissolve and add it gradually over 12 hours),
which will eliminate a lot of ciliated protozoan parasites, like ich.
Keep the temperature up (around 79-80F is good) while you're treating.
Try feeding him a small part of a squished pea. (That was all one of
my fish would eat when he had flukes-- he's fine now)

Good luck.

[Kodiak]

Well that explains everything. Thank you all for the wonderful
posts on this. Just when you think your getting a handle on the
situation, you realize your doing it all wrong. Day 4 now, the fish
seems to be doing better, but he still won't eat. Wondering if I should
move him to a quiet tank on his own.

Why don't the LFS's know about this? They should remove the print on the bag
that says mix
water a bit at a time. If my fish dies because of this I will be really
upset. To think you go through
all that trouble and follow detailed instructions, and that's what's killing
your fish! Phooey!...

....Kodiak


> wrote in message
...
> it depends.
> how much water was in the bag
> using "bag buddies": or any other kind of sedative is a no-no
> did they put a drop of something in to bind up ammonia (a good thing)
> did they flush the bag with pure oxygen or just tanked air?
> all fish suffer some gill frying from transport, but opening the bag and
leaving them
> in the bag water does the most damage.
> Polyaqua is the brand name. used for soothing gills
> shipping by UPS requires chilling the fish over several days and stop
feeding them
> for 2 or 3 days before shipping, using ice packs to keep the water cold,
adding
> something to bind ammonia, using hospital grade pure oxygen to flush the
water and
> fill the bag. and using adequate sized bag and water for size of fish,
i.e.
> unpacking. Jo Ann only used UPS and Delta Dash cause they would get the
fish there
> in 12 hours or so altho she packed such that IF the fish were out 24 or
more hours
> the fish still would do well. She always had good luck with fish arriving
in great
> shape.... but ... she did have problems with UPS dropping the box of fish
causing
> internal injuries. Ingrid
>
> "Kodiak" > wrote:
> >You mentioned 1week to recover from fried gills, do you really think
> > i fried my poor fishies gills from only 5 hours of transport? How can
> >you safely ship any fish by UPS or FEDEX then? Must need a big huge
> >bag of water? What is polyaqua, can you recommend a brand?
> >
> >...Kodiak
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

the fish may need to be force fed to get em eating again. often their sense of smell
seems to have been "burned". try a bit of chopped shrimp, or, daphnia something that
moves may stimulate them to eat. are you saying you put this fish in with
established fish? that you didnt quarantine this new fish?

yes, go back to the LFS with a printout from this group and explain how their old
fashioned mythology is actually causing people to kill fish. it is the only way they
will learn. lest you think it wont change anything.... you have no idea how the
Goldfish Guru (Jo Ann Burke) has changed the keeping of GF in the few years she has
been on the internet. Ingrid

"Kodiak" > wrote:
>Well that explains everything. Thank you all for the wonderful
>posts on this. Just when you think your getting a handle on the
>situation, you realize your doing it all wrong. Day 4 now, the fish
>seems to be doing better, but he still won't eat. Wondering if I should
>move him to a quiet tank on his own.
>
>Why don't the LFS's know about this? They should remove the print on the bag
>that says mix>water a bit at a time. If my fish dies because of this I will be really
>upset. To think you go through>all that trouble and follow detailed instructions, and that's what's killing
>your fish! Phooey!...


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

I heartily recommend NOT using praziquantel with GF. It is NOT mild and can fry the
gills.
A quick 10 SECOND dip in 1 part (3%) hydrogen peroxide + 9 parts water effectively
kills all kinds of flukes. This can be repeated every 3 days if there are dacs
(hatching eggs). It is cheap, it works, and the contact with the gills is fleeting.
Ingrid


>Did you try Prazi-pro? Sometimes a bad case of flukes keeps them from
>eating, and they sit still on the bottom a lot.
>Prazi clears flukes quickly and with minimal stress to the fish and
>filter.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[BErney1014]

>Day 4 now, the fish
>seems to be doing better, but he still won't eat. Wondering if I should
>move him to a quiet tank on his own.

If it won't eat there is probably something wrong with it. Next time see if the
fish eats in the store. I missed what type of fish it is but some fish don't
recognize different food if they have been raised on one diet.
When I invented the bucket to bucket method I used a green colored series of
buckets. The green color relaxed the fish to the point they were stationary and
breathing calmly. I do not know why, but when I moved them to a different color
they were not calm. In time, and when on the mend, they start to hunt and peck
like a normal fish.

[Vissy Dartae]

Huh. I've had very good luck with Prazi.
The fish I've used it on in q-tine have turned out to be my
healthiest, liveliest ones.
It came highly recommended from sources I respect.
OH well.


wrote in message >...
> I heartily recommend NOT using praziquantel with GF. It is NOT mild and can fry the
> gills.
> A quick 10 SECOND dip in 1 part (3%) hydrogen peroxide + 9 parts water effectively
> kills all kinds of flukes. This can be repeated every 3 days if there are dacs
> (hatching eggs). It is cheap, it works, and the contact with the gills is fleeting.
> Ingrid
>
>
> >Did you try Prazi-pro? Sometimes a bad case of flukes keeps them from
> >eating, and they sit still on the bottom a lot.
> >Prazi clears flukes quickly and with minimal stress to the fish and
> >filter.
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.

[BErney1014]

>Huh. I've had very good luck with Prazi.
>The fish I've used it on in q-tine have turned out to be my
>healthiest, liveliest ones.
>It came highly recommended from sources I respect.
>OH well.


Peroxide came from a published story in 2001 and it referenced a 1997 work. The
article goes back to 1922 with credits and also cites dosages. They think no
one will check, that's how they operate.

[Kodiak]

Yes Ingrid, I know, shame on me. I put him in an established tank without
Qtine first.
The other fish in the tank were also recently purchased and not Qtine'd. I'm
just now
getting into all the intricacies of this hobby, so i proise I will never do
that again.

Day 5 now he's still not eating, should I take him out and do a bucket
brigade on him?
....Kodiak

> wrote in message
...
> the fish may need to be force fed to get em eating again. often their
sense of smell
> seems to have been "burned". try a bit of chopped shrimp, or, daphnia
something that
> moves may stimulate them to eat. are you saying you put this fish in with
> established fish? that you didnt quarantine this new fish?
>
> yes, go back to the LFS with a printout from this group and explain how
their old
> fashioned mythology is actually causing people to kill fish. it is the
only way they
> will learn. lest you think it wont change anything.... you have no idea
how the
> Goldfish Guru (Jo Ann Burke) has changed the keeping of GF in the few
years she has
> been on the internet. Ingrid
>
> "Kodiak" > wrote:
> >Well that explains everything. Thank you all for the wonderful
> >posts on this. Just when you think your getting a handle on the
> >situation, you realize your doing it all wrong. Day 4 now, the fish
> >seems to be doing better, but he still won't eat. Wondering if I should
> >move him to a quiet tank on his own.
> >
> >Why don't the LFS's know about this? They should remove the print on the
bag
> >that says mix>water a bit at a time. If my fish dies because of this I
will be really
> >upset. To think you go through>all that trouble and follow detailed
instructions, and that's what's killing
> >your fish! Phooey!...
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

you need to tempt him with something stronger smelling and/or something that moves.
most of these fish were in ponds and fed live food. try a smidgen of live blood
worms. otherwise you are going to have to force feed em. a 1 cc TB syringe (without
the needle of course) and soak some food until it is much will go up into the syringe
and back out. get the syringe all the way back down into their throat where the
pharyngeal teeth are. as you bring the fish up to the surface they will open their
mouth. that is when you put the syringe in and feed em. Ingrid

"Kodiak" > wrote:
>Yes Ingrid, I know, shame on me. I put him in an established tank without
>Qtine first.
>The other fish in the tank were also recently purchased and not Qtine'd. I'm
>just now
>getting into all the intricacies of this hobby, so i proise I will never do
>that again.
>Day 5 now he's still not eating, should I take him out and do a bucket
>brigade on him?
>...Kodiak


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

potassium permanganate has always been used successfully for gyros in the past. PP
is also not very harsh, but it is used as a bath (which always has concerns). Dacs
have always been a problem and been resistant to almost all medications, including
praziquantel.
Jo Ann figured out what dose of peroxide works with flukes on GF just in the last
year or so, so I am not surprised that others are still recommending prazi.

http://cal.vet.upenn.edu/dxendopar/drug%20pages/praziquantel.htm
"Praziquantel
Chemical group: Acylated quinoline-pyrazine
Trade names: Droncit, Tape Worm Tabs, Drontal1, Drontal Plus2
Mode of action: Modulates cell membrane permeability (calcium dependent), leads to a
disintegration of the tapeworm’s tegument.

Now if this were pond fish and the pond was loaded with organics, prazi might be the
choice. Ingrid

(Vissy Dartae) wrote:
>Huh. I've had very good luck with Prazi.
>The fish I've used it on in q-tine have turned out to be my
>healthiest, liveliest ones.
>It came highly recommended from sources I respect.
>OH well.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Vissy Dartae]

(BErney1014) wrote in message >...
> >Huh. I've had very good luck with Prazi.
> >The fish I've used it on in q-tine have turned out to be my
> >healthiest, liveliest ones.
> >It came highly recommended from sources I respect.
> >OH well.
>
>
> Peroxide came from a published story in 2001 and it referenced a 1997 work. The
> article goes back to 1922 with credits and also cites dosages. They think no
> one will check, that's how they operate.


Berney, I'm confused-- do you mean peroxide here or praziquantel?

Anyway, I stand by the use of praziquantel. There are many
responsible experienced gold-keepers who swear by it and whose fish
have benefited from its use. My fish don't react to it in the
slightest when I use it. Gill flukes will damage the gills a lot
sooner than Prazi will, IMHO.

[BErney1014]

>Berney, I'm confused-- do you mean peroxide here or praziquantel?
>
>Anyway, I stand by the use of praziquantel.

Good stance.
Prazi is the most effective treatment for flukes and it's easy on the fish.
The reference to peroxide being pioneered recently is simply not true.
Read all about it. Vol. 5 #2

http://216.168.47.67/CIS-Fishnet/WaterWorks/

[Kodiak]

I came home tonight and he seemed a bit off balance.
Strangely enough he would go to the surface for 10
seconds or so at a time, I thought he was looking for food.
Tried to feed him when he would go to the surface,
he may have swallowed one pellet by accident.

I found a 1cc syringe like you said, but before I could do
any forcefeeding he all of the sudden got very weak and
floated listless in the water. About 1 hr later he died.
....:( ...:( ....:( I am so so sad.... sniff.

Why did he die so quick, is that normal? They hang on and hang on
and then they just let go?


....Kodiak



> wrote in message
...
> you need to tempt him with something stronger smelling and/or something
that moves.
> most of these fish were in ponds and fed live food. try a smidgen of live
blood
> worms. otherwise you are going to have to force feed em. a 1 cc TB
syringe (without
> the needle of course) and soak some food until it is much will go up into
the syringe
> and back out. get the syringe all the way back down into their throat
where the
> pharyngeal teeth are. as you bring the fish up to the surface they will
open their
> mouth. that is when you put the syringe in and feed em. Ingrid
>
> "Kodiak" > wrote:
> >Yes Ingrid, I know, shame on me. I put him in an established tank without
> >Qtine first.
> >The other fish in the tank were also recently purchased and not Qtine'd.
I'm
> >just now
> >getting into all the intricacies of this hobby, so i proise I will never
do
> >that again.
> >Day 5 now he's still not eating, should I take him out and do a bucket
> >brigade on him?
> >...Kodiak
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

when they cant move they cant get oxygen across their gills. Poor thing really did go
for a long time without food. Ingrid

"Kodiak" > wrote:
>I came home tonight and he seemed a bit off balance.
>Strangely enough he would go to the surface for 10
>seconds or so at a time, I thought he was looking for food.
>Tried to feed him when he would go to the surface,
>he may have swallowed one pellet by accident.
>
>I found a 1cc syringe like you said, but before I could do
>any forcefeeding he all of the sudden got very weak and
>floated listless in the water. About 1 hr later he died.
>...:( ...:( ....:( I am so so sad.... sniff.
>
>Why did he die so quick, is that normal? They hang on and hang on
>and then they just let go?
>
>
>...Kodiak


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

I helped Jo Ann Burke write up the paper for the use of peroxide to treat flukes in
GF and it was submitted to Roy Yanong. That he chose not to list her as one of the
contributors to this research can only be explained by him.

Most people dont understand scientific research. Research is rarely totally new
discoveries, the vast majority of science is done by expanding what others have done,
by doing parallel areas of research, by fine tuning other scientific research.

Most "fish" research is on "food fish". Nobody in this country does clinical trials
on Goldfish except Jo Ann Burke. And since she has retired, there isnt anybody doing
it anymore. So while the use of peroxide for treating fish "in general" has been
known for many years, its use in Goldfish has not been researched and has not been
documented until Jo Ann did so.

I find it interesting that you, Bruce, claim "discovering" the bucket to bucket
method altho the basis of this treatment is nothing more than 100% water changes,
something the Chinese have done in keeping fish in those fancy glass bowls for the
last 1000s of years. Not to mention all the GF kept in GF bowls where little kids
put their GF into a cup of water, cleaned the bowl out completely, start with new
fresh water and put the GF back in. Your contribution was using multiple containers.


Even so, I was willing to credit you with the advancement and did credit you with
"Bruce's bucket to bucket" method until you became so abusive I got fed up. Not to
mention I found out that using a 20 gallon container that holds a lot more water than
a 5 gallon bucket worked better at which time I named the method tub to tub.

Ingrid


>The reference to peroxide being pioneered recently is simply not true.
>Read all about it. Vol. 5 #2
>http://216.168.47.67/CIS-Fishnet/WaterWorks/



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[BErney1014]

>That he chose not to list her as one of the
>contributors to this research can only be explained by him.

The project was before you claimed your partner pioneered it.
I'd be curious to know why the open invitation by the school wasn't announced
by you and your partner. The people who pioneered it were not keeping it a
secret.

Glad to see you admit you stole the bucket to bucket method. But, claim you're
justified because you don't like me? Silly girl.