Does anyone know where i can find live food for the goldies?

[Alkad Mzu]

Hey all I was wondering what everyone was feeding their Gfs. I keep it
varied. Spirulina, blood worm, brine shrimp, krill, and goldfish flakes
right now for goldfish flakes im using wardley brand from my local
petstore. I hate supporting them because they sell dogs and cats and i
firmly believe that they should only be adopted or bought from
breeders(other story other group for this matter). Anyway i hear a food
called pro gold is really good for the goldfish
http://www.goldfishconnection.com/shop/details.php?productId=2&parentId=14&catId=14

[Mel]

Pro gold is great and very nutritious, unlike flakes. As for live food, I'm
in the UK so can't recommend anywhere for you to get it, but here most fish
shops sell blocks of frozen bloodworm/brineshrimp etc which are in little
ice cubes and can be kept in the freezer and defrosted as needed. If you
have trouble getting live this might be good for you, or should I say the
fish? lol
Mel.

"Alkad Mzu" > wrote in message
news:pan.2004.01.14.14.15.39.570539@linuxquestions .org...
> Hey all I was wondering what everyone was feeding their Gfs. I keep it
> varied. Spirulina, blood worm, brine shrimp, krill, and goldfish flakes
> right now for goldfish flakes im using wardley brand from my local
> petstore. I hate supporting them because they sell dogs and cats and i
> firmly believe that they should only be adopted or bought from
> breeders(other story other group for this matter). Anyway i hear a food
> called pro gold is really good for the goldfish
>
http://www.goldfishconnection.com/shop/details.php?productId=2&parentId=14&c
atId=14
> .
>
> Does anyone know where i can find live food for the goldies?
>
> This is my first post to this group. I made the huge mistake of buying my
> eight year old son some gold fish for christmas. To start with, it didnt
> occure to me to do some research first before getting the fish. So i go
> down to my local petstore and ask the sales guy to recommend me a tank
> with the supplies needed for supporting goldfish. He's fairly young kid
> that didnt look a day over 14. he sells me a 10g tank with some freaky
> coloured gravel and one of those internal buble filters with the sponge in
> it and tells me that this should support 4 small goldfish. He also
> recomends me to let the filter process the water for a full twenty-four
> hours before actually purchasing the fish. My kitchen water faucet is
> filtered under the sink and i also have one of those pur filters on the
> mouth of the faucet. I filled the tank withthat water and added plenty of
> aquarium salt and something calle stress zyme. as for the salt, it
> suggests you add a tea spoon per 5gallons i add double the a mount being
> that my water is devoid of any thing useful to the gfs. And stress zyme i
> start with 10ml then add 5ml a day later and at partial water changes. At
> this point i sencearly belive that I have got me a plan. Since then ive
> done plenty of reading about goldfish and have developed a fondness for
> the fish. Right now i still have a 10g tank cuase funds are particulary
> low this season, but i got rid that stupid filter and purchased a tetra
> whisper 30 (im waiting on an Aquaclear 600 to arrive in the mail) i also
> want to upgrade to a better airpump with a couple of outputs (Rena Air
> Pump 400)
> . I only have two fish and they seemed to have developed into my
> christmas present. I think I have been doing alright because they look
> healthy and the water's
> usually pretty damn clear mainly because i do partial water changes every
> two days and i sponge the glass down to rid it of any accumulating algea.
> In all the fish are always moving around i provided airstones, and a small
> place for them hide and ajust to the hoodlight when it comes on. My goal
> is to move those two fish to 30 gallon tank and use the 10 as a hospital
> and temp place in the occasion that the 30 gallon needs to be cleaned out
> entirely.
>
>
> ----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
News==----
> http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000
Newsgroups
> ---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption
=---

[Toni]

"Alkad Mzu" > wrote in message >
> Does anyone know where i can find live food for the goldies?
>


I buy live blackworms from
http://www.aquaticfoods.com/intros.html to feed to my Discus, and give them
to the Goldfish very occasionally. Not too often- but they seem to enjoy a
few every once in a while.


--
Toni
http://www.cearbhaill.com/goldfish.htm

[[email protected]]

live food or freeze dried or frozen live is not recommended for GF in tanks. It is
not recommended by Jo Ann Burke who sold the best GF in the US for some 30 years.
She felt the food was a source of infections. However, now some food is irradiated
and cannot be a source of infections.
the exceptions are brine shrimp hatched from eggs. why not feed human grade food
like chopped cooked cocktail shrimp for a treat. it is best to find the highest
quality food and stick with that. if you really want to give em a treat, make em a
pond for summering outside. Ingrid


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Kay]

Alkad Mzu wrote:
> Hey all I was wondering what everyone was feeding their Gfs. I keep it
> varied. Spirulina, blood worm, brine shrimp, krill, and goldfish flakes
> right now for goldfish flakes im using wardley brand from my local
> petstore. I hate supporting them because they sell dogs and cats and i
> firmly believe that they should only be adopted or bought from
> breeders(other story other group for this matter). Anyway i hear a food
> called pro gold is really good for the goldfish
> http://www.goldfishconnection.com/shop/details.php?productId=2&parentId=14&catId=14
> .
>
> Does anyone know where i can find live food for the goldies?
>
> This is my first post to this group. I made the huge mistake of buying my
> eight year old son some gold fish for christmas. To start with, it didnt
> occure to me to do some research first before getting the fish. So i go
> down to my local petstore and ask the sales guy to recommend me a tank
> with the supplies needed for supporting goldfish. He's fairly young kid
> that didnt look a day over 14. he sells me a 10g tank with some freaky
> coloured gravel and one of those internal buble filters with the sponge in
> it and tells me that this should support 4 small goldfish. He also
> recomends me to let the filter process the water for a full twenty-four
> hours before actually purchasing the fish. My kitchen water faucet is
> filtered under the sink and i also have one of those pur filters on the
> mouth of the faucet. I filled the tank withthat water and added plenty of
> aquarium salt and something calle stress zyme. as for the salt, it
> suggests you add a tea spoon per 5gallons i add double the a mount being
> that my water is devoid of any thing useful to the gfs. And stress zyme i
> start with 10ml then add 5ml a day later and at partial water changes. At
> this point i sencearly belive that I have got me a plan. Since then ive
> done plenty of reading about goldfish and have developed a fondness for
> the fish. Right now i still have a 10g tank cuase funds are particulary
> low this season, but i got rid that stupid filter and purchased a tetra
> whisper 30 (im waiting on an Aquaclear 600 to arrive in the mail) i also
> want to upgrade to a better airpump with a couple of outputs (Rena Air
> Pump 400)
> . I only have two fish and they seemed to have developed into my
> christmas present. I think I have been doing alright because they look
> healthy and the water's
> usually pretty damn clear mainly because i do partial water changes every
> two days and i sponge the glass down to rid it of any accumulating algea.
> In all the fish are always moving around i provided airstones, and a small
> place for them hide and ajust to the hoodlight when it comes on. My goal
> is to move those two fish to 30 gallon tank and use the 10 as a hospital
> and temp place in the occasion that the 30 gallon needs to be cleaned out
> entirely.
>
>
> ----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
> http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
> ---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
I have used live black worms, Bloodworms, frozen bloodworms and brine
shrimp with no ill effects at all. Not to mention freeze dried baby
shrimp and freeze dried bloodworms. I do this once or twice a week.

Kay

[esq.]

snip
>She felt the food was a source of infections.
snip

Can you give some examples of the infections and how they were traced to live
food?

[Tom La Bron]

Lots of luck on getting an answer to that one "esq". She or Jo Ann said it,
so it doesn't need any proof. ;-)

I have feed live foods for 40 years and have never had problems, but in
Ingrid's case you have to have something to blame for your problems, you
might as well make it the live food or frozen foods.

Frozen foods are great too. My LFS has Hakari brand or tubifex, blood worms
and brine shrimp, and I have never had any problems with these either.

Tom L.L.
------------------------------------------
"esq." > wrote in message
...
> snip
> >She felt the food was a source of infections.
> snip
>
> Can you give some examples of the infections and how they were traced to
live
> food?
>

[T]

"Kay" > wrote in message
news:3jWNb.80423$8H.116676@attbi_s03...
> Alkad Mzu wrote:
> > Hey all I was wondering what everyone was feeding their Gfs. I keep it
> > varied. Spirulina, blood worm, brine shrimp, krill, and goldfish flakes
> > right now for goldfish flakes im using wardley brand from my local
> > petstore. I hate supporting them because they sell dogs and cats and i
> > firmly believe that they should only be adopted or bought from
> > breeders(other story other group for this matter). Anyway i hear a food
> > called pro gold is really good for the goldfish
> >
http://www.goldfishconnection.com/shop/details.php?productId=2&parentId=14&c
atId=14
> > .
> >
> > Does anyone know where i can find live food for the goldies?
> >
> > This is my first post to this group. I made the huge mistake of buying
my
> > eight year old son some gold fish for christmas. To start with, it didnt
> > occure to me to do some research first before getting the fish. So i go
> > down to my local petstore and ask the sales guy to recommend me a tank
> > with the supplies needed for supporting goldfish. He's fairly young kid
> > that didnt look a day over 14. he sells me a 10g tank with some freaky
> > coloured gravel and one of those internal buble filters with the sponge
in
> > it and tells me that this should support 4 small goldfish. He also
> > recomends me to let the filter process the water for a full twenty-four
> > hours before actually purchasing the fish. My kitchen water faucet is
> > filtered under the sink and i also have one of those pur filters on the
> > mouth of the faucet. I filled the tank withthat water and added plenty
of
> > aquarium salt and something calle stress zyme. as for the salt, it
> > suggests you add a tea spoon per 5gallons i add double the a mount
being
> > that my water is devoid of any thing useful to the gfs. And stress zyme
i
> > start with 10ml then add 5ml a day later and at partial water changes.
At
> > this point i sencearly belive that I have got me a plan. Since then ive
> > done plenty of reading about goldfish and have developed a fondness for
> > the fish. Right now i still have a 10g tank cuase funds are particulary
> > low this season, but i got rid that stupid filter and purchased a tetra
> > whisper 30 (im waiting on an Aquaclear 600 to arrive in the mail) i also
> > want to upgrade to a better airpump with a couple of outputs (Rena Air
> > Pump 400)
> > . I only have two fish and they seemed to have developed into my
> > christmas present. I think I have been doing alright because they look
> > healthy and the water's
> > usually pretty damn clear mainly because i do partial water changes
every
> > two days and i sponge the glass down to rid it of any accumulating
algea.
> > In all the fish are always moving around i provided airstones, and a
small
> > place for them hide and ajust to the hoodlight when it comes on. My goal
> > is to move those two fish to 30 gallon tank and use the 10 as a hospital
> > and temp place in the occasion that the 30 gallon needs to be cleaned
out
> > entirely.
> >
> >
> > ----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
News==----
> > http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000
Newsgroups
> > ---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via
Encryption =---
> I have used live black worms, Bloodworms, frozen bloodworms and brine
> shrimp with no ill effects at all. Not to mention freeze dried baby
> shrimp and freeze dried bloodworms. I do this once or twice a week.
>
> Kay
>

There is a lot of things you can feed GF that they enjoy.. A slice of
orange, garlic slivers, guppies ( I cull my guppies and feed them to an
assorted bunch of fish, but I raised these fish and know they are free from
illness's etc ), chopped up cooked prawn's. From time to time I feed them
freeze dried and fresh bloodworms and tubifex, general staple is a mixed
varity flake, green Hikari Cichlid pellets and other various dry pellet Koi
and GF food.. Lots of options if you have the time and space..

Tim...

[[email protected]]

yes, and many people have kept GF in 10 gallon tanks without doing water changes.
There are few "rules" in keeping GF that somebody doesnt ignore, many many more
ignore "recommendations" and their fish thrive. But Jo Ann's recommendations are
based on thousands of fish and 30 years of experience. I may only be one fish in 100
or 1 worm in a thousand that has the wrong kind of bacteria that can cause a GI tract
infection, or perhaps infect the eggs in a female and then the fish is in serious
trouble. Nobody can say precisely because nobody has double blind controlled studies
and nobody ever will.
In China where most of these big fancy GF are raised the fish are power fed all kinds
of live food in ponds and grow to be monsters. No doubt about live food makes big
fish. But nobody cares if individual fish die in the ponds from infection. It is
weeding out the unfit. Not to mention ponds are inherently healthier from the get go.
My fish summered out and were very healthy eating live stuff all summer long. Inside
and tanks are different. tanks are out of balance, no lush green sweater algae for a
start. So a tank is just different from a pond. And an individual fish we are fond
of is different than a whole pond full of fish too. Ingrid

Kay > wrote:
>I have used live black worms, Bloodworms, frozen bloodworms and brine
>shrimp with no ill effects at all. Not to mention freeze dried baby
>shrimp and freeze dried bloodworms. I do this once or twice a week.
>
>Kay



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

the "red flag" was people calling with sick fish and after eliminating everything
else that could be a cause of bacterial infection, live food was the only thing
left. so when enough people stopped feeding live food and reported the problems in
their tanks stopped too Jo Ann felt there might be some correlation.
there were enough incidents that Jo Ann then cultured out some of the live and some
of the frozen worms and found the same kind of bacteria .. aeromonas, which is the
chief cause of bacterial problems in GF. Aeromonas is also everywhere in nature in
low numbers, but many of these worms like tubifex feed on bacteria and if there are
higher numbers of aeromonas that is what is going to be in their gut when they are
sold or frozen. I am not sure if there is any other kind of mechanism going on. It
isnt a LOT of evidence which is why it only warrants a "not recommended" for tank GF.

Ingrid

(esq.) wrote:

>snip
>>She felt the food was a source of infections.
>snip
>
>Can you give some examples of the infections and how they were traced to live
>food?



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[esq.]

snip
>Aeromonas is also everywhere in nature in
>low numbers, but many of these worms like tubifex feed on bacteria and if
>there are
>higher numbers of aeromonas that is what is going to be in their gut when
>they are
>sold or frozen.
snip

I see your reasoning, however, wouldn't the fishes digestive or immune system
kill bacteria?
I did not know aeromonas bacteria can survive freezing or that tubifex worms
eat aeromonas.

[[email protected]]

tubifex thrive in sewage. altho I am sure they can be fed something else. yes, many
small things eat bacteria. freezing is good way to preserve bacteria. freeze drying
is even better.
many bacteria and viruses survive the digestive system of all animals. bacteria
actually line the gut of all animals and are part of the natural flora. a few
pathogenic ones wont necessarily make disease, but when there is a big dose, it does.
think about salmonella, or the pathogenic strains of E. coli ... E. coli is natural
flora in our intestines. Ingrid

(esq.) wrote:

>snip
>>Aeromonas is also everywhere in nature in
>>low numbers, but many of these worms like tubifex feed on bacteria and if
>>there are
>>higher numbers of aeromonas that is what is going to be in their gut when
>>they are
>>sold or frozen.
>snip
>
>I see your reasoning, however, wouldn't the fishes digestive or immune system
>kill bacteria?
>I did not know aeromonas bacteria can survive freezing or that tubifex worms
>eat aeromonas.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Geezer From Freezer]

I feed my baby fish live baby brine shrimp. I feed my 3 older fish cooked
chopped prawns, daphnia
and bloodworms. I've considered giving them cooked, cooled cod too, but haven't
yet as I enjoy it too
much :D

[Tom La Bron]

Esq.

To a certain extent the reasonings that Ingrid and Jo Ann have brought out
"were" true ages ago, because many tubifex worms were harvested from the
sewer seepage from large cities in the Far East, but this is ancient
history.

Since Ingrid has me on her Kill List and never reads my message you may want
to question her as to when this happened, because being in the aquaculture
community I have never heard of this in recent years. I sure that the
aquaculture community would have heard of this long before Jo Ann had
stumbled on the so called Aeromonas theory in Tubifex worms.

In any event, this is ancient history. Ingrid has been using this Mantra
for years about tubifex worms and now-a-days it is just a bunch of horse
pucky. Tubifex worms now-a-days are creatures that are supplied by
culturing the worms. The are bred in colonies using corn meal and soy bean
powdered milk. I lived in Singapore for three and a half years and had 7
55-gallon aquariums and bred goldfish and other species. I used Tubifex
that were raised in Malaysia. I never had one fish get sick from feeding
these worms. And today I still have not had a fish get sick from feeding
tubifex worms. Of course, I don't live in Singapore any more and have to
feed frozen worms, but the brand I get where I am at are Hakari and they
have been greatly accepted by my fish and have never gotten sick.

Let me make one more point. This is a quote from a well known aquaculture
veterinarian; he states:

quote:

It is commonly accepted that lateral transmission of Aeromonas occurs via
contaminated water, infected fish, and fish intestinal tracts; however, the
actually portal of entry into the fish host remains a mystery. Several
studies have demonstrated rapid uptake of the organism into susceptible
host. The final answers regarding the transmission mechanism remain
unsolved for 90 years of investigations.

Unquote.

Now isn't interesting that the portal has remained unsolved for 90 years by
qualified and dedicated researchers in the field, but a LFS owner in Alabama
(Jo Ann), with no formal training, or degree in any field, or real expertise
in Epidemiology or Pathogenesis, all of a sudden has found the way it occurs
and she, and now Ingrid, blames it all on an entire part of the fish food
industry.

Like I have said before, I have feed tubifex worms for over 40 years and
have never even had Aeromonas in my tanks or ponds. Plus where did the
individuals gets the live tubifex worms in the first place. I don't know of
any where where you can get them live, except from special biological
facilities that use them for research. They must have been harvesting them
from the mud flats themselves.

I do know that 35 years ago that you could harvest a bucket load of tubifex
in the mud flats of the Thames river in England in about 5 minutes, but
since the river has been cleaned up you would be lucky to get a thimbleful
in an hour of searching.

The reason I mention this is because this is the reason they are cultured
now, is because the natural areas where they used to breed have been cleaned
up and they don't exist anymore.

So use the tubifex worms.

HTH

Tom L.L.
-----------------------------
"esq." > wrote in message
...
>
> I see your reasoning, however, wouldn't the fishes digestive or immune
system
> kill bacteria?
> I did not know aeromonas bacteria can survive freezing or that tubifex
worms
> eat aeromonas.

[esq.]

snip
>To a certain extent the reasonings that Ingrid and Jo Ann have brought out
>"were" true ages ago
snip
added post
snipped
>freezing is good way to preserve bacteria. >freeze drying
>is even better.
snip

The general statement that live foods cause infection has now narrowed to
tubifex and aeromonas.
I am aware many ideas are passed from generation to generation. Tubifex can be
found listed like rats are for carrying disease. "Mommy, can I have a pet rat?"
"Your Grandmother would have a stroke if you brought home a rat, NO!"
I would like to make a connection to infection and live food, I raise live
foods. I'm interested in the husbandry aspect of this discussion. If I could
say my worms are clean and free of disease, great.
Aeromonas is harmless to fish unless the fish is stressed or damaged. The
bacteria is listed to live within a temperature range 42-94.1 F. I do not know
if death occurs above or below those ranges. I do not know if aeromonas
survives digestion, goldfish have digestive systems that are alkaline and the
bacteria doesn't thrive in high or low pH. I'm looking for the exact pH of the
digestive system, if anyone knows and cares to contribute, please advise.
I will follow up when time permits, please continue on.

[[email protected]]

rats do carry disease. do a google search for Monkey Pox. there was an outbreak in
Wisconsin. the rat gave the pox to prairie dogs, the dogs to people.
obviously, you have never had to live in conditions where rats were a serious health
problem. while I think pet rats bred for pets are great, people who have serious rat
infestations that are threatening to the lives do not think rats are good pets.
all fish are living in stressed conditions, they cannot help but damage their slime
coat once in a while. and it has everything to do with QUANTITY. a big dose of
bacteria will infect while a few wont.
The aeromonas that infects GF is killed by temps over 84oF, so that is one of the
treatments for it. there are several species of aeromonas that are pathogenic.
Ingrid


(esq.) wrote:
Tubifex can be
>found listed like rats are for carrying disease. "Mommy, can I have a pet rat?"
>"Your Grandmother would have a stroke if you brought home a rat, NO!"

>Aeromonas is harmless to fish unless the fish is stressed or damaged. The
>bacteria is listed to live within a temperature range 42-94.1 F. I do not know
>if death occurs above or below those ranges. I do not know if aeromonas
>survives digestion, goldfish have digestive systems that are alkaline and the
>bacteria doesn't thrive in high or low pH. I'm looking for the exact pH of the
>digestive system, if anyone knows and cares to contribute, please advise.
>I will follow up when time permits, please continue on.
>



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[esq.]

>The aeromonas that infects GF is killed by temps over 84oF, so that is one
>of the
>treatments for it. there are several species of aeromonas that are
pathogenic.

84F is a prime temperature for aeromonas bacteria. I read many leaflets,
journal pages and other science pages, 84F is optimum temperature. Where did
you get your inormation?
I couldn't read all the results for my searches because there were so many. It
would take too long, but the pages I downloaded to read were all the same so I
can conclude my text is correct.
I found additional info that takes aeromonas, the fish disease types, as high
as 37C (98.6F), that's interesting.

[[email protected]]

the aeromonas that infects GF is killed by temps over 84oF. In either one or more of
the following. Jo Ann Burke and her book, Health Care Standards for Goldfish and Koi
[$39.95/ available by calling U.S. 1-251-649-4790] Edward J. Noga, Fish Disease
Diagnosis and Treatment, Mosby 1996 [$100] or Michael K. Stoskopf, Fish Medicine,
W.B.Saunders Co., 1993 [$140].

growing on agar is not the same as in situ. Ingrid

(esq.) wrote:
>84F is a prime temperature for aeromonas bacteria. I read many leaflets,
>journal pages and other science pages, 84F is optimum temperature. Where did
>you get your inormation?
>I couldn't read all the results for my searches because there were so many. It
>would take too long, but the pages I downloaded to read were all the same so I
>can conclude my text is correct.
>I found additional info that takes aeromonas, the fish disease types, as high
>as 37C (98.6F), that's interesting.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

not at all. the genus and species E. coli is in our intestines, but there are
pathogenic strains that can contaminate meat and not killed unless the meat is well
cooked. The same is true many genus and some species.. like strep and staph. While
they are found on various surfaces inside and out, there are specific pathogenic
strains that are communicable diseases. Like the strep strain that causes scarlet
fever. Of course, just plain old E. coli can rapidly cause death if there is a
rupture of the intestines by bullet or appendicitis. So even our friendlies can turn
on us. Ingrid

(esq.) wrote:
demonstrated that genus Aeromonas was
>the dominant species in the goldfish intestines.
>Makes the point moot, don't you think? Looks like stress, not live food, is the
>cause of infection.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Kay]

WEll don't think you can compare a 10 gallon tank to the diet I feed my
fish. If thats what you are hinting at. I have sand substrate, I feed
live worms and lots of other varied diet, and my fish is happy. and that
is the only thing that matters to me.

We all don't have to believe in the same mantra here. so with this mad
cow thing I should never eat beef, cause of that one chance that it
might be infected. I think there is allot of experts with different
opinions with excellent results.

I if I have question I check out all worthy opinions.

wrote:

> yes, and many people have kept GF in 10 gallon tanks without doing water changes.
> There are few "rules" in keeping GF that somebody doesnt ignore, many many more
> ignore "recommendations" and their fish thrive. But Jo Ann's recommendations are
> based on thousands of fish and 30 years of experience. I may only be one fish in 100
> or 1 worm in a thousand that has the wrong kind of bacteria that can cause a GI tract
> infection, or perhaps infect the eggs in a female and then the fish is in serious
> trouble. Nobody can say precisely because nobody has double blind controlled studies
> and nobody ever will.
> In China where most of these big fancy GF are raised the fish are power fed all kinds
> of live food in ponds and grow to be monsters. No doubt about live food makes big
> fish. But nobody cares if individual fish die in the ponds from infection. It is
> weeding out the unfit. Not to mention ponds are inherently healthier from the get go.
> My fish summered out and were very healthy eating live stuff all summer long. Inside
> and tanks are different. tanks are out of balance, no lush green sweater algae for a
> start. So a tank is just different from a pond. And an individual fish we are fond
> of is different than a whole pond full of fish too. Ingrid
>
> Kay > wrote:
>
>>I have used live black worms, Bloodworms, frozen bloodworms and brine
>>shrimp with no ill effects at all. Not to mention freeze dried baby
>>shrimp and freeze dried bloodworms. I do this once or twice a week.
>>

[Tom La Bron]

Ingrid,

I know you are not going to read this, so for everyone else out there that
is reading this thread I would like to say that I have both the Noga book
and the Stoskopf book and no where in either book does it say that 84
degrees F will kill Aeromonas as your statement implies.

To those who's emails she is reading you may want to ask her on what page
this information is put forth, because I sure can't find it.

And as far as Jo Ann's book is concerned, I think it is a little much to use
as a reference (since it was produced by a LFS owner who has taken two
courses at college) as a credible resource of information elevating it and
comparing it to the scholarly works as a reference work to the level of
Noga's or Stoskopf's publications. In fact, for the same price the Dr.
Johnson book is a much better buy with much better instructional material
and color and photographs as illustrations instead of hand drawings.

Come on Ingrid lets get real, here.

And you are right Ingrid, growing on Agar is not the same as instu., but
most of us do not have the facilities at our homes to produce electron
micrographs for identification. Today through agar and special PCR assays
are the ways of diagnosising for Aeromonas. As a DNA person you should know
all about this, and know that this is one of the main ways of telling if
Aeromonas are present.

Oh, and why I am at it, I find it interesting that you always bring up
Aeromonas because there are nine other beasties that produce similar
symptoms, so to chose one of the most unlikely of bacteria to be the cause
of a disease over the internet is quite a feat, since virtually all the
scholarly literature seem to require electron micrographs, Agar culturing or
PCR assaying to figure out if it is Aeromonas. In actuality if we are
talking about Goldfish and aquariums it is a higher chance that the culprit
of infection is Aeromonas hydrophila. The reason that I say this is because
it is in question as to if Aeromonas salmonicida exists as a free-living
entity in the natural environment, while Aeromonas hydrophilla is known to
live freely in the natural environment. When all is said and done though,
all scholarly literature relates the disease showing up in stress of the
host.

And by-the-by, tubifex are not farmed from areas where sewage exists
anymore, they are culture and grown on corn meal and soy milk powder. What
you are talking about is ancient history. You might want to look into some
new literature and get up to speed on what is going on in the real world.

Keep the faith, esq. you are doing a great job. Unless you are injecting
Aeromonas in to your worm cultures, you probably don't have them in your
worms. In 45 years, I have seen only one case of Aeromonas salmonicida and
that was in a Ranchu that I nursed back to health a long time ago for a
friend when I was out in California, and that was long before we had all
these great meds at our disposal now-a-days.

Tom L.L.
=========================================
> wrote in message
...
> the aeromonas that infects GF is killed by temps over 84oF. In either one
or more of
> the following. Jo Ann Burke and her book, Health Care Standards for
Goldfish and Koi
> [$39.95/ available by calling U.S. 1-251-649-4790] Edward J. Noga, Fish
Disease
> Diagnosis and Treatment, Mosby 1996 [$100] or Michael K. Stoskopf, Fish
Medicine,
> W.B.Saunders Co., 1993 [$140].
>
> growing on agar is not the same as in situ. Ingrid
>
> (esq.) wrote:
> >84F is a prime temperature for aeromonas bacteria. I read many leaflets,
> >journal pages and other science pages, 84F is optimum temperature. Where
did
> >you get your inormation?
> >I couldn't read all the results for my searches because there were so
many. It
> >would take too long, but the pages I downloaded to read were all the same
so I
> >can conclude my text is correct.
> >I found additional info that takes aeromonas, the fish disease types, as
high
> >as 37C (98.6F), that's interesting.
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Kay]

Tom,
I apreciate the work and research you have done. And am very grateful
that you stay here, so that all opinions can be heard. Things said here
in the past as fact has not coinsided with my goldfish, but seeing your
post on some of these things helps me. And I would like to note that you
do this for your love of goldfish, without rewards or money. I might be
kicked off the puregold list for this post but It don't matter, I just
had to say that am really glad you and Berney are here, God Bless you
and yours.

Kay

> Ingrid,
>
> I know you are not going to read this, so for everyone else out there that
> is reading this thread I would like to say that I have both the Noga book
> and the Stoskopf book and no where in either book does it say that 84
> degrees F will kill Aeromonas as your statement implies.
>
> To those who's emails she is reading you may want to ask her on what page
> this information is put forth, because I sure can't find it.
>
> And as far as Jo Ann's book is concerned, I think it is a little much to use
> as a reference (since it was produced by a LFS owner who has taken two
> courses at college) as a credible resource of information elevating it and
> comparing it to the scholarly works as a reference work to the level of
> Noga's or Stoskopf's publications. In fact, for the same price the Dr.
> Johnson book is a much better buy with much better instructional material
> and color and photographs as illustrations instead of hand drawings.
>
> Come on Ingrid lets get real, here.
>
> And you are right Ingrid, growing on Agar is not the same as instu., but
> most of us do not have the facilities at our homes to produce electron
> micrographs for identification. Today through agar and special PCR assays
> are the ways of diagnosising for Aeromonas. As a DNA person you should know
> all about this, and know that this is one of the main ways of telling if
> Aeromonas are present.
>
> Oh, and why I am at it, I find it interesting that you always bring up
> Aeromonas because there are nine other beasties that produce similar
> symptoms, so to chose one of the most unlikely of bacteria to be the cause
> of a disease over the internet is quite a feat, since virtually all the
> scholarly literature seem to require electron micrographs, Agar culturing or
> PCR assaying to figure out if it is Aeromonas. In actuality if we are
> talking about Goldfish and aquariums it is a higher chance that the culprit
> of infection is Aeromonas hydrophila. The reason that I say this is because
> it is in question as to if Aeromonas salmonicida exists as a free-living
> entity in the natural environment, while Aeromonas hydrophilla is known to
> live freely in the natural environment. When all is said and done though,
> all scholarly literature relates the disease showing up in stress of the
> host.
>
> And by-the-by, tubifex are not farmed from areas where sewage exists
> anymore, they are culture and grown on corn meal and soy milk powder. What
> you are talking about is ancient history. You might want to look into some
> new literature and get up to speed on what is going on in the real world.
>
> Keep the faith, esq. you are doing a great job. Unless you are injecting
> Aeromonas in to your worm cultures, you probably don't have them in your
> worms. In 45 years, I have seen only one case of Aeromonas salmonicida and
> that was in a Ranchu that I nursed back to health a long time ago for a
> friend when I was out in California, and that was long before we had all
> these great meds at our disposal now-a-days.
>
> Tom L.L.
> =========================================
> > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>the aeromonas that infects GF is killed by temps over 84oF. In either one
>
> or more of
>
>>the following. Jo Ann Burke and her book, Health Care Standards for
>
> Goldfish and Koi
>
>>[$39.95/ available by calling U.S. 1-251-649-4790] Edward J. Noga, Fish
>
> Disease
>
>>Diagnosis and Treatment, Mosby 1996 [$100] or Michael K. Stoskopf, Fish
>
> Medicine,
>
>>W.B.Saunders Co., 1993 [$140].
>>
>>growing on agar is not the same as in situ. Ingrid
>>
(esq.) wrote:
>>
>>>84F is a prime temperature for aeromonas bacteria. I read many leaflets,
>>>journal pages and other science pages, 84F is optimum temperature. Where
>
> did
>
>>>you get your inormation?
>>>I couldn't read all the results for my searches because there were so
>
> many. It
>
>>>would take too long, but the pages I downloaded to read were all the same
>
> so I
>
>>>can conclude my text is correct.
>>>I found additional info that takes aeromonas, the fish disease types, as
>
> high
>
>>>as 37C (98.6F), that's interesting.
>>
>>
>>
>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
>>http://puregold.aquaria.net/
>>www.drsolo.com
>>Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
>>compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
>>endorsements or recommendations I make.
>
>
>

[[email protected]]

Kay. I wasnt aware you were on Puregold, but nobody gets kicked off for having
opinions different from mine or others. The only time anybody is removed is when
they continue to personally attack another member despite warnings. One of the major
reasons Puregold was started was because people on the original GF list were free to
personally attack each other .... and it seems the list is now defunct.
OTOH, Puregold now has 400 members and people are friendly, helpful, dont attack
newbies, dont flame. Since we began only a very few have every been removed when
they refused to stop attacking others. Ingrid

Kay > wrote:
>I apreciate the work and research you have done. And am very grateful
>that you stay here, so that all opinions can be heard. Things said here
>in the past as fact has not coinsided with my goldfish, but seeing your
>post on some of these things helps me. And I would like to note that you
>do this for your love of goldfish, without rewards or money. I might be
>kicked off the puregold list for this post but It don't matter, I just
>had to say that am really glad you and Berney are here, God Bless you
>and yours.>Kay


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Kay]

I have ran a bbs <bullet board system> for many years, then a website
site and I still do, I have a forum which Ihave run for a few years now
on "virtual fish which breed and have fry" Even Goldfish. Fancy, comet
and Black Moors. Its complicated they only came out in Japanese and had
to be converted to english by the program users....<the goldfish part
that is> Anyhow the newsgroup went under because a group formed and if
you didn't agree there was heck to pay, had a few "leaders" and lots of
follerers that shunned you if you disagreed with the "leader" Sounds so
stupid but it happened. Lawsuit threats, anom email threats. It would be
a shame if that happened here, but it would not be a surprize.

Kay


> Kay. I wasnt aware you were on Puregold, but nobody gets kicked off for having
> opinions different from mine or others. The only time anybody is removed is when
> they continue to personally attack another member despite warnings. One of the major
> reasons Puregold was started was because people on the original GF list were free to
> personally attack each other .... and it seems the list is now defunct.
> OTOH, Puregold now has 400 members and people are friendly, helpful, dont attack
> newbies, dont flame. Since we began only a very few have every been removed when
> they refused to stop attacking others. Ingrid
>
> Kay > wrote:
>
>>I apreciate the work and research you have done. And am very grateful
>>that you stay here, so that all opinions can be heard. Things said here
>>in the past as fact has not coinsided with my goldfish, but seeing your
>>post on some of these things helps me. And I would like to note that you
>>do this for your love of goldfish, without rewards or money. I might be
>>kicked off the puregold list for this post but It don't matter, I just
>>had to say that am really glad you and Berney are here, God Bless you
>>and yours.>Kay
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

well that is the other reason I started up Puregold. the GF list posted the digest
to this list and everything including real addresses went public. a lot of newbies
and others would never speak up (well you can see how many out of 400 speak up on
Puregold!) and there is always the fear of lawsuits, etc. there arent a lot of rules
on Puregold, but one is no reposting of other peoples email ANYWHERE.
yeah... I am on a dog list that has certain points of view. I nudge them from time
to time, but mostly I run down info for anyone that needs it. happily on Puregold
there are enough experienced people willing to help out that I dont need to pay real
close attention to the list anymore. Most people know they can call Jo Ann directly
for help (even tho she sold the GF business) and a lot of them do. Jo Ann is
training up Ken Fisher http://dandyorandas.com/ so he can take over more of that
too. There is nothing like being responsible for hundreds of VERY expensive Goldfish
to steeply increase the learning curve. Ingrid

Kay > wrote:
>I have ran a bbs <bullet board system> for many years, then a website
>site and I still do, I have a forum which Ihave run for a few years now
>on "virtual fish which breed and have fry" Even Goldfish. Fancy, comet
>and Black Moors. Its complicated they only came out in Japanese and had
>to be converted to english by the program users....<the goldfish part
>that is> Anyhow the newsgroup went under because a group formed and if
>you didn't agree there was heck to pay, had a few "leaders" and lots of
>follerers that shunned you if you disagreed with the "leader" Sounds so
>stupid but it happened. Lawsuit threats, anom email threats. It would be
>a shame if that happened here, but it would not be a surprize.
>Kay


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[BErney1014]

>One of the major
>reasons Puregold was started was because people on the original GF list
>were free to
>personally attack each other
>Since we began only a very few have every been removed when
>they refused to stop attacking others.

telling lies, again....
She kicked me off her list and I never even posted.

>had a few "leaders" and lots of
>follerers that shunned you if you disagreed >with the "leader"

That's Ingrid, if you check what she says and find it wrong, her minions speak
out, or, if they don't, she runs away.