Floating Oranda

[Shillelagh]

Hi
I'm new here. I have two darling Red Orandas that I've become quite
attached to. My husband is the person with the fish knowledge, but he has
Koi and Guppies.

One of my Orandas seems to float at the top of the tank quite a bit,
especially after they eat. I'm wondering if he's gulping in air with his
food. I've been feeding them flakes, but we also have pellets for them. I
read the Goldfish Care for Newbies that someone kindly posted a link for.
It sounded like we should wet the flakes and then squeeze the air out of
them so they'd sink.

My husband is also very good about cleaning the tank for me and changing the
water. I can't supply you with PH and the other stuff mentioned in some
other posts right now, but will ask him if we have the equipment to test for
those numbers.

Any thoughts/suggestions would be appreciated. TIA

Shelagh

[Watkins Lady]

HI Shelagh

You don't have to "wet" the flakes and squeeze them. What I do is take a
small cup (was part of a doll's tea set, actually), partially fill it with
water and add the flakes to it. You will notice them sink to the bottom.
This is when to give them to the fish. The air is out so they sunk...

My oranda floats like that occasionally as well. I believe it has to do
with the shape of their bodies. He is fine otherwise, but will stay at the
top when at rest, and not all the time. He seems to do it for a few weeks,
and then is fine for a few weeks.

Some other suggestions are to not feed the fish for one day per week, to let
their digestive system clean out. Also give one meal of peas - frozen,
thawed and de-shelled. Also cut into bite-sized pieces according to fish
size. I don't feed my fish for 24 hours before I clean out their tanks, and
I follow this "fast" with the peas. I also give peas one other meal during
the week, for 2x weekly.

Tammy


"Shillelagh" > wrote in message
...
> Hi
> I'm new here. I have two darling Red Orandas that I've become quite
> attached to. My husband is the person with the fish knowledge, but he has
> Koi and Guppies.
>
> One of my Orandas seems to float at the top of the tank quite a bit,
> especially after they eat. I'm wondering if he's gulping in air with his
> food. I've been feeding them flakes, but we also have pellets for them.
I
> read the Goldfish Care for Newbies that someone kindly posted a link for.
> It sounded like we should wet the flakes and then squeeze the air out of
> them so they'd sink.
>
> My husband is also very good about cleaning the tank for me and changing
the
> water. I can't supply you with PH and the other stuff mentioned in some
> other posts right now, but will ask him if we have the equipment to test
for
> those numbers.
>
> Any thoughts/suggestions would be appreciated. TIA
>
> Shelagh
>
>

[MartinOsirus]

>> One of my Orandas seems to float at the top of the tank quite a bit,
>> especially after they eat. I'm wondering if he's gulping in air with his
>> food.

Yes he's gulping air if feeding at the water surface. Feed sinking food -
pellets best for the larger fish. Pre-soak the food so it sinks. Gulping air
can cause floating.

[Mel]

It does sound like he is suffering form a mild swimbladder problem. High
nitrates have been linked to this so it is important that you test your
water parameters (ammonia, nitrite and nitrate) as soon as you can.
STarving the fish for 3 days then feeding nothing but defrosted frozen peas,
shelled and chopped for another 3 days often does the trick for mild cases
so it would be worth a try (it wont hurt your other one to follow the same
regime). It is also a good idea to feed peas twice a week in order to keep
it from happening again.
Flakes aren't that great for goldfish - high protein sinking pellets are
generally best.
Mel.

"MartinOsirus" > wrote in message
...
> >> One of my Orandas seems to float at the top of the tank quite a bit,
> >> especially after they eat. I'm wondering if he's gulping in air with
his
> >> food.
>
> Yes he's gulping air if feeding at the water surface. Feed sinking food -
> pellets best for the larger fish. Pre-soak the food so it sinks. Gulping
air
> can cause floating.

[Shillelagh]

Thanks to all of you for your replies. They were very helpful; and I do
have some frozen peas, so will do that today.

BTW, I had a peek this a.m.(didn't want to wake them up yet), and he was
floating mid-tank with the other one.

I'll keep lurking, and will ask more questions if needed.

Shelagh

[[email protected]]

http://puregold.aquaria.net/pg/care/care1.htm#essentials
http://puregold.aquaria.net/pg/disease/symptom/symptom.htm#floating%20problems

"Shillelagh" > wrote:

>
>Thanks to all of you for your replies. They were very helpful; and I do
>have some frozen peas, so will do that today.
>
>BTW, I had a peek this a.m.(didn't want to wake them up yet), and he was
>floating mid-tank with the other one.
>I'll keep lurking, and will ask more questions if needed.
>
>Shelagh
>



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Tom La Bron]

Mel,

Where does it say that high nitrates are connected to swim bladder problem?

Tom L.L.
---------------------------------------
"Mel" > wrote in message
...
> It does sound like he is suffering form a mild swimbladder problem. High
> nitrates have been linked to this so it is important that you test your
> water parameters (ammonia, nitrite and nitrate) as soon as you can.
> STarving the fish for 3 days then feeding nothing but defrosted frozen
peas,
> shelled and chopped for another 3 days often does the trick for mild cases
> so it would be worth a try (it wont hurt your other one to follow the
same
> regime). It is also a good idea to feed peas twice a week in order to keep
> it from happening again.
> Flakes aren't that great for goldfish - high protein sinking pellets are
> generally best.
> Mel.
>
> "MartinOsirus" > wrote in message
> ...
> > >> One of my Orandas seems to float at the top of the tank quite a bit,
> > >> especially after they eat. I'm wondering if he's gulping in air with
> his
> > >> food.
> >
> > Yes he's gulping air if feeding at the water surface. Feed sinking
food -
> > pellets best for the larger fish. Pre-soak the food so it sinks.
Gulping
> air
> > can cause floating.
>
>

[Shillelagh]

> wrote in message
...
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/pg/care/care1.htm#essentials
>
http://puregold.aquaria.net/pg/disease/symptom/symptom.htm#floating%20problems
>BTW, I had a peek this a.m.(didn't want to wake them up yet), and he was
> >floating mid-tank with the other one.
> >I'll keep lurking, and will ask more questions if needed.
> >
> >Shelagh

Thanks for the links - I have put them in my "favourites" (and read them
too). When I said the fish was "floating mid-tank" today, I meant that he
looked okay. He's been swimming fine, and hasn't been floating up at the
top. We're probably going to do some clean up and water exchange tomorrow.

I fed them the peas and they really gobbled them up. How often should I
feed them the peas?

Shelagh

[Mel]

Do you need a reference for everything written here? <g>
I haven't got a specific source but from my own experience I have found that
when people have fish with swimbladder problems the nitrates are often
elevated far above the recommended minimum of 20. I have also read of
research being done into this and links being found between the two but
unfortunately it was a while ago and I cant remember where I read it.
However, even if nitrates aren't linked to swimbladder problems, it's well
worth checking them and lowering them if necessary as if they are too high
they will weaken the fish and make it harder for it to overcome any health
problems which might arise/have already arisen.
Mel.


"Tom La Bron" > wrote in message
...
> Mel,
>
> Where does it say that high nitrates are connected to swim bladder
problem?
>
> Tom L.L.
> ---------------------------------------
> "Mel" > wrote in message
> ...
> > It does sound like he is suffering form a mild swimbladder problem. High
> > nitrates have been linked to this so it is important that you test your
> > water parameters (ammonia, nitrite and nitrate) as soon as you can.
> > STarving the fish for 3 days then feeding nothing but defrosted frozen
> peas,
> > shelled and chopped for another 3 days often does the trick for mild
cases
> > so it would be worth a try (it wont hurt your other one to follow the
> same
> > regime). It is also a good idea to feed peas twice a week in order to
keep
> > it from happening again.
> > Flakes aren't that great for goldfish - high protein sinking pellets are
> > generally best.
> > Mel.
> >
> > "MartinOsirus" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > >> One of my Orandas seems to float at the top of the tank quite a
bit,
> > > >> especially after they eat. I'm wondering if he's gulping in air
with
> > his
> > > >> food.
> > >
> > > Yes he's gulping air if feeding at the water surface. Feed sinking
> food -
> > > pellets best for the larger fish. Pre-soak the food so it sinks.
> Gulping
> > air
> > > can cause floating.
> >
> >
>
>

[Tom La Bron]

Mel,

Yes, in this case I think you do need collateral resource material. The
reason I ask is that I do have research that shows that Goldfish are fine
with high nitrates. Personally, I try to keep mine at or below 50ppm by
using philodendrons in my tanks and tubs, but I very seldom even worry about
it. Woo and Bruno have probably done the most research around swim bladder
problems and never once have they ever mentioned a coorelation with nitrates
and they has three books to his credit. Also if nitrates are a probability
in affecting goldfish and swim bladder problems (and goldfish are tolerant
of nitrates) you would think that Noga and Stoskopf would mention it in
their books about this correlation and they don't because many other fish
are a lot less tolerant of nitrates than Goldfish. So that is the reason I
asked for reference, because what you said does not agree with established
research.

Tom L.L.
--------------------------------------
"Mel" > wrote in message
...
> Do you need a reference for everything written here? <g>
> I haven't got a specific source but from my own experience I have found
that
> when people have fish with swimbladder problems the nitrates are often
> elevated far above the recommended minimum of 20. I have also read of
> research being done into this and links being found between the two but
> unfortunately it was a while ago and I cant remember where I read it.
> However, even if nitrates aren't linked to swimbladder problems, it's well
> worth checking them and lowering them if necessary as if they are too high
> they will weaken the fish and make it harder for it to overcome any health
> problems which might arise/have already arisen.
> Mel.
>
>
> "Tom La Bron" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Mel,
> >
> > Where does it say that high nitrates are connected to swim bladder
> problem?
> >
> > Tom L.L.
> > ---------------------------------------
> > "Mel" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > It does sound like he is suffering form a mild swimbladder problem.
High
> > > nitrates have been linked to this so it is important that you test
your
> > > water parameters (ammonia, nitrite and nitrate) as soon as you can.
> > > STarving the fish for 3 days then feeding nothing but defrosted frozen
> > peas,
> > > shelled and chopped for another 3 days often does the trick for mild
> cases
> > > so it would be worth a try (it wont hurt your other one to follow the
> > same
> > > regime). It is also a good idea to feed peas twice a week in order to
> keep
> > > it from happening again.
> > > Flakes aren't that great for goldfish - high protein sinking pellets
are
> > > generally best.
> > > Mel.
> > >
> > > "MartinOsirus" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > >> One of my Orandas seems to float at the top of the tank quite a
> bit,
> > > > >> especially after they eat. I'm wondering if he's gulping in air
> with
> > > his
> > > > >> food.
> > > >
> > > > Yes he's gulping air if feeding at the water surface. Feed sinking
> > food -
> > > > pellets best for the larger fish. Pre-soak the food so it sinks.
> > Gulping
> > > air
> > > > can cause floating.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Mel]

Yes, in this case I think you do need collateral resource material



Well sorry but I come here in my spare time and spend enough time providing
references in the assignments which I write for my MA and in my work. It is
common knowledge that high nitrates aren't good for fish, especially fancy
goldfish, and if there is already an inherent problem such as swimbladder
then lowering the nitrates or keeping them low can do nothing but help an
already ill/stressed fish.
Mel.

"Tom La Bron" > wrote in message
...
> Mel,
>
> Yes, in this case I think you do need collateral resource material. The
> reason I ask is that I do have research that shows that Goldfish are fine
> with high nitrates. Personally, I try to keep mine at or below 50ppm by
> using philodendrons in my tanks and tubs, but I very seldom even worry
about
> it. Woo and Bruno have probably done the most research around swim
bladder
> problems and never once have they ever mentioned a coorelation with
nitrates
> and they has three books to his credit. Also if nitrates are a
probability
> in affecting goldfish and swim bladder problems (and goldfish are tolerant
> of nitrates) you would think that Noga and Stoskopf would mention it in
> their books about this correlation and they don't because many other fish
> are a lot less tolerant of nitrates than Goldfish. So that is the reason
I
> asked for reference, because what you said does not agree with established
> research.
>
> Tom L.L.
> --------------------------------------
> "Mel" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Do you need a reference for everything written here? <g>
> > I haven't got a specific source but from my own experience I have found
> that
> > when people have fish with swimbladder problems the nitrates are often
> > elevated far above the recommended minimum of 20. I have also read of
> > research being done into this and links being found between the two but
> > unfortunately it was a while ago and I cant remember where I read it.
> > However, even if nitrates aren't linked to swimbladder problems, it's
well
> > worth checking them and lowering them if necessary as if they are too
high
> > they will weaken the fish and make it harder for it to overcome any
health
> > problems which might arise/have already arisen.
> > Mel.
> >
> >
> > "Tom La Bron" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Mel,
> > >
> > > Where does it say that high nitrates are connected to swim bladder
> > problem?
> > >
> > > Tom L.L.
> > > ---------------------------------------
> > > "Mel" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > It does sound like he is suffering form a mild swimbladder problem.
> High
> > > > nitrates have been linked to this so it is important that you test
> your
> > > > water parameters (ammonia, nitrite and nitrate) as soon as you can.
> > > > STarving the fish for 3 days then feeding nothing but defrosted
frozen
> > > peas,
> > > > shelled and chopped for another 3 days often does the trick for mild
> > cases
> > > > so it would be worth a try (it wont hurt your other one to follow
the
> > > same
> > > > regime). It is also a good idea to feed peas twice a week in order
to
> > keep
> > > > it from happening again.
> > > > Flakes aren't that great for goldfish - high protein sinking pellets
> are
> > > > generally best.
> > > > Mel.
> > > >
> > > > "MartinOsirus" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > > >> One of my Orandas seems to float at the top of the tank quite a
> > bit,
> > > > > >> especially after they eat. I'm wondering if he's gulping in
air
> > with
> > > > his
> > > > > >> food.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes he's gulping air if feeding at the water surface. Feed sinking
> > > food -
> > > > > pellets best for the larger fish. Pre-soak the food so it sinks.
> > > Gulping
> > > > air
> > > > > can cause floating.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[[email protected]]

I agree. Many of us are absolutely amazed by people keep a GF in absolutely
horrendous conditions and the GF thrives. But our gorgeous, expensive fancy with
long fins gets sulky and ragged finnage the minute the nitrates go over 20 ppm. High
nitrates are also just an indicator of other untested waste products in the tank as
well. As Jo Ann says "tanks are controlled sewers". Our GF deserve regular water
changes. Ingrid

"Mel" > wrote:
>Well sorry but I come here in my spare time and spend enough time providing
>references in the assignments which I write for my MA and in my work. It is
>common knowledge that high nitrates aren't good for fish, especially fancy
>goldfish, and if there is already an inherent problem such as swimbladder
>then lowering the nitrates or keeping them low can do nothing but help an
>already ill/stressed fish.
>Mel.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Watkins Lady]

Just out of curiosity...

Is it possible that the fish have just gotten used to, or adjusted, to these
conditions? If the fish is used to clean water, then obviously a rise in
ammonia, or nitrates, or whatever would stress it. On the same token, could
a gf not get used to living in higher nitrate levels? I basically look
after my tanks as close "to the book" as possible in my circumstances, but
we always hear stories of fish surviving conditions we feel are horrible.
The fish has probably just adjusted and would deteriorate in what we would
call "better" conditions, wouldn't it?

Tammy <>{


> wrote in message
...
> I agree. Many of us are absolutely amazed by people keep a GF in
absolutely
> horrendous conditions and the GF thrives. But our gorgeous, expensive
fancy with
> long fins gets sulky and ragged finnage the minute the nitrates go over 20
ppm. High
> nitrates are also just an indicator of other untested waste products in
the tank as
> well. As Jo Ann says "tanks are controlled sewers". Our GF deserve
regular water
> changes. Ingrid
>
> "Mel" > wrote:
> >Well sorry but I come here in my spare time and spend enough time
providing
> >references in the assignments which I write for my MA and in my work. It
is
> >common knowledge that high nitrates aren't good for fish, especially
fancy
> >goldfish, and if there is already an inherent problem such as swimbladder
> >then lowering the nitrates or keeping them low can do nothing but help an
> >already ill/stressed fish.
> >Mel.
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Tom La Bron]

I am sorry Mel, just because it is said that does not make it a fact or a
reality. There are a lot of things that are "common knowledge," but that
does not make them true. Just because something is said or touted long
enough or loud enough does not make it true.

You may want to check real research by Wickens, Tchobanoglous and Colt,
1976.

Tom L.L.
"Mel" > wrote in message
...
> Yes, in this case I think you do need collateral resource material
>
>
>
> Well sorry but I come here in my spare time and spend enough time
providing
> references in the assignments which I write for my MA and in my work. It
is
> common knowledge that high nitrates aren't good for fish, especially fancy
> goldfish, and if there is already an inherent problem such as swimbladder
> then lowering the nitrates or keeping them low can do nothing but help an
> already ill/stressed fish.
> Mel.
>
> "Tom La Bron" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Mel,
> >
> > Yes, in this case I think you do need collateral resource material. The
> > reason I ask is that I do have research that shows that Goldfish are
fine
> > with high nitrates. Personally, I try to keep mine at or below 50ppm by
> > using philodendrons in my tanks and tubs, but I very seldom even worry
> about
> > it. Woo and Bruno have probably done the most research around swim
> bladder
> > problems and never once have they ever mentioned a coorelation with
> nitrates
> > and they has three books to his credit. Also if nitrates are a
> probability
> > in affecting goldfish and swim bladder problems (and goldfish are
tolerant
> > of nitrates) you would think that Noga and Stoskopf would mention it in
> > their books about this correlation and they don't because many other
fish
> > are a lot less tolerant of nitrates than Goldfish. So that is the
reason
> I
> > asked for reference, because what you said does not agree with
established
> > research.
> >
> > Tom L.L.
> > --------------------------------------
> > "Mel" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Do you need a reference for everything written here? <g>
> > > I haven't got a specific source but from my own experience I have
found
> > that
> > > when people have fish with swimbladder problems the nitrates are often
> > > elevated far above the recommended minimum of 20. I have also read of
> > > research being done into this and links being found between the two
but
> > > unfortunately it was a while ago and I cant remember where I read it.
> > > However, even if nitrates aren't linked to swimbladder problems, it's
> well
> > > worth checking them and lowering them if necessary as if they are too
> high
> > > they will weaken the fish and make it harder for it to overcome any
> health
> > > problems which might arise/have already arisen.
> > > Mel.
> > >
> > >
> > > "Tom La Bron" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > Mel,
> > > >
> > > > Where does it say that high nitrates are connected to swim bladder
> > > problem?
> > > >
> > > > Tom L.L.
> > > > ---------------------------------------
> > > > "Mel" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > > It does sound like he is suffering form a mild swimbladder
problem.
> > High
> > > > > nitrates have been linked to this so it is important that you test
> > your
> > > > > water parameters (ammonia, nitrite and nitrate) as soon as you
can.
> > > > > STarving the fish for 3 days then feeding nothing but defrosted
> frozen
> > > > peas,
> > > > > shelled and chopped for another 3 days often does the trick for
mild
> > > cases
> > > > > so it would be worth a try (it wont hurt your other one to follow
> the
> > > > same
> > > > > regime). It is also a good idea to feed peas twice a week in order
> to
> > > keep
> > > > > it from happening again.
> > > > > Flakes aren't that great for goldfish - high protein sinking
pellets
> > are
> > > > > generally best.
> > > > > Mel.
> > > > >
> > > > > "MartinOsirus" > wrote in message
> > > > > ...
> > > > > > >> One of my Orandas seems to float at the top of the tank quite
a
> > > bit,
> > > > > > >> especially after they eat. I'm wondering if he's gulping in
> air
> > > with
> > > > > his
> > > > > > >> food.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes he's gulping air if feeding at the water surface. Feed
sinking
> > > > food -
> > > > > > pellets best for the larger fish. Pre-soak the food so it
sinks.
> > > > Gulping
> > > > > air
> > > > > > can cause floating.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[[email protected]]

yes. individual fish may be able adjust to various levels of toxins. but they dont
thrive either. toxins are a stress and any stress weakens the fish immune system.
But what people are saying is their fanciest fish, the one with the longest fins do
not tolerate even relatively low levels of nitrates. Maybe this is one of the big
differences between ponds and aquariums. Outdoor in my ponds my fish are NEVER
exposed to any nitrates at all and they thrive and grow and get brilliant colored.
Once inside, they just dont do as well.
Of course, look at tropicals. A friend, the Pond Lady had some and said her well
water had nitrates in it (she was in agricultural area) and she had to leave the
water in another heavily planted tank to clean out the nitrates before using it in
her trops tank. trops evidently wont tolerate any nitrates at all. So GF do
tolerate some without dying, but I think over the long haul it slowly takes em down
too. one reason I like to send my GF out to summer camp. Ingrid

"Watkins Lady" > wrote:
>Just out of curiosity...
>
>Is it possible that the fish have just gotten used to, or adjusted, to these
>conditions? If the fish is used to clean water, then obviously a rise in
>ammonia, or nitrates, or whatever would stress it. On the same token, could
>a gf not get used to living in higher nitrate levels? I basically look
>after my tanks as close "to the book" as possible in my circumstances, but
>we always hear stories of fish surviving conditions we feel are horrible.
>The fish has probably just adjusted and would deteriorate in what we would
>call "better" conditions, wouldn't it?
>
>Tammy


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.