Scale loss

[Alexandra]

We got our goldfish from our friends who had a pond in their backyard.
They brought their fish back to the house for winter. They gave us
one of their "baby" fish. It was a very happy and healthy fish, but
did not servive the move very well. Our goldfish lost one scale after
it was moved to a fish bowl, but it seemed to be healthy otherwise and
did not loose its appetite. We kept it in a bowl for 2 months, but
since I read that a goldfish should not be kept in a bowl, we got a
small fish tank and moved our fish to the tank. We followed all the
rules for a new fish tank (with keeping an empty tank for 4 days,
adding good bacteria to it, etc.) We introduced our fish to a new tank
only after 4 days. Unfortunately our fish did not like the move and
it was very stressed out. We tested the tank water again after 2 days
and the ammonia level was high (2.5). We changed about 20% of the
water. Unfortunately our fish lost 4 more scales (all in one
spot)within the last week. The fish looks healthy otherwise, but it
is a little bit afraid and does not want to come closer to get food
(it used to do it before), it likes hiding behind the plants when we
approach the tank. It is still hungry and it did not loose its
appetite. It is pretty active when the light is on, but it can also
"sit" in one position for a longer time (even during a day).
Is the loss of scales a symptom of some kind of a disease? I
understand that the quality of water is essential, but what else can
we do? What kind of medication can we use? Would our fish scales
grow back? Please advise. Thank you for your help.

[Vissy Dartae]

Are you checking the ammonia/nitrites/nitrates/pH regularly?

How often/much do you change the water? 20% would not help much at
those ammonia levels. You might need to change it a couple
times/week, at least 50% while the tank is still cycling, and unless
you used Bio-spira or some kind of media from another cycled tank, it
won't cycle in four days.

How big is the tank? GF need 10 gals/fish at least-- they are very
messy.

Here is some reading that could be helpful for you:

http://faq.thekrib.com
http://www.actwin.com/fish/mirror/

Good Luck!

[Alexandra]

Thank you for your advice. I will check the links you suggested. It
is a small 4 gallon tank (our fish is pretty small, too - about 3.5"
including the tail). I will do the water tests again today.
Are there any chances that the scales grow back?

[alkad mzu]

Alexandra wrote:
> Thank you for your advice. I will check the links you suggested. It
> is a small 4 gallon tank (our fish is pretty small, too - about 3.5"
> including the tail). I will do the water tests again today.
> Are there any chances that the scales grow back?

hi,
You've probably been told this but my server deletes the messagages
faster than I can read them all. get a bigger tank.
when I first bought my goldfish, I bought them for my son for christmas.
I had them in a tengallon tank with gravel and one of those cheap
bubble filters. only two of them survived my ignorance. I hate seeing
fish die. they say ten gallon per fish becuase all of the amonia they
produce, but ten gallon should actually be and emergency place for them
becuase if you ever needed to house them in a temp place; there are
plenty of cheap 30g rubbermaid containers that once the water is aged
and aerated the fish are better off in.
what type of filter could possibly fit on a 4 gallon tank.
I could go on and on. while keeping two fish in a ten gallon
I had to change the water everyday and the smaller of the two
was alway full of gas floating and at some point it lost some scale due
to the nitrite level getting toxic right under my nose. any way my fish
survived to see the promise land (a 20 gallon tank) once goldfish are
give generous amount of space they take on new light and display all sorts
of interesting behavior that is not possible in small captivity.
think about a tiger or an ape in a 7x7 cage for a home.
for now take the gravel out. your supposed to doit slowly, it should
take about 4 days to get all your gravel but being that you have such a
small tank what I suggest you do is get a clean 20- 30 gallon bucket
container fill it with your tap water and throw in some airstones let
that setup settle overnight then relocate the fish while you clean out
the small tank. unfortunatelly the smaller the tank the harder it is to
maintain a stable environment. let the small tank sit for another 12
hours filter on with new filter media. scales may not growback with
color depending on how much scales were lost and usually the healing
process looks like rust is beginning to form around the areas where the
scales were lost.
sorry for the long message get a bigger setup here's a list of things
you should get http://puregold.aquaria.net/pg/care/care1.htm#essentials

[Tim]

(Alexandra) wrote in message >...
> Thank you for your advice. I will check the links you suggested. It
> is a small 4 gallon tank (our fish is pretty small, too - about 3.5"
> including the tail). I will do the water tests again today.
> Are there any chances that the scales grow back?

That's pretty much a disaster waiting to happen! The general rule is
1" to 1 gal, but with a newly cycled tank (especially one of only 4
gallons) I'd be doing a 20% water change a day!

Goldfish are very, very messy. I have two fish in my tank having a
party. It's 15g and they've got a fair bit of space. My goldfish has
also lost a few scales, but this I believe is due to the rough and
tumble the two indulge in.

[[email protected]]

1 inch for 1 gallon is for trops. not for GF. all GF need minimum of 10 gallons
cause they grow larger than trops and as you point out, produce a lot of wastes.
Ingrid

(Tim) wrote:

(Alexandra) wrote in message >...
>> Thank you for your advice. I will check the links you suggested. It
>> is a small 4 gallon tank (our fish is pretty small, too - about 3.5"
>> including the tail). I will do the water tests again today.
>> Are there any chances that the scales grow back?
>
>That's pretty much a disaster waiting to happen! The general rule is
>1" to 1 gal, but with a newly cycled tank (especially one of only 4
>gallons) I'd be doing a 20% water change a day!
>
>Goldfish are very, very messy. I have two fish in my tank having a
>party. It's 15g and they've got a fair bit of space. My goldfish has
>also lost a few scales, but this I believe is due to the rough and
>tumble the two indulge in.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Alexandra]

Thank you very much. The link you sent me was great (very useful for
beginners like myself - thanks again). I understand the space (size
of a tank) is an issue here. We were notified yesterday that our new
tank (46 gallons) arrived. This supposed to be a new home for my
goldfish and any new friends of her (3-4 of them). I am not sure what
to do now. I will definitely wait for a week to cycle the new tank.
Someone advised me that I change 20% of water in my 4-gallon tank each
day. I will definitely do it till I move the fish to the new tank.
The question is: How long should I wait till I get other fish for
that tank? I do not want other fish to get sick, because my fish is
sick (loosing scales). I have 2 plants, treasure box (with air
bubbles) and another small decoration in a tank. Should I remove the
decorations to give my fish more space?

alkad mzu > wrote in message >...
> Alexandra wrote:
> > Thank you for your advice. I will check the links you suggested. It
> > is a small 4 gallon tank (our fish is pretty small, too - about 3.5"
> > including the tail). I will do the water tests again today.
> > Are there any chances that the scales grow back?
>
> hi,
> You've probably been told this but my server deletes the messagages
> faster than I can read them all. get a bigger tank.
> when I first bought my goldfish, I bought them for my son for christmas.
> I had them in a tengallon tank with gravel and one of those cheap
> bubble filters. only two of them survived my ignorance. I hate seeing
> fish die. they say ten gallon per fish becuase all of the amonia they
> produce, but ten gallon should actually be and emergency place for them
> becuase if you ever needed to house them in a temp place; there are
> plenty of cheap 30g rubbermaid containers that once the water is aged
> and aerated the fish are better off in.
> what type of filter could possibly fit on a 4 gallon tank.
> I could go on and on. while keeping two fish in a ten gallon
> I had to change the water everyday and the smaller of the two
> was alway full of gas floating and at some point it lost some scale due
> to the nitrite level getting toxic right under my nose. any way my fish
> survived to see the promise land (a 20 gallon tank) once goldfish are
> give generous amount of space they take on new light and display all sorts
> of interesting behavior that is not possible in small captivity.
> think about a tiger or an ape in a 7x7 cage for a home.
> for now take the gravel out. your supposed to doit slowly, it should
> take about 4 days to get all your gravel but being that you have such a
> small tank what I suggest you do is get a clean 20- 30 gallon bucket
> container fill it with your tap water and throw in some airstones let
> that setup settle overnight then relocate the fish while you clean out
> the small tank. unfortunatelly the smaller the tank the harder it is to
> maintain a stable environment. let the small tank sit for another 12
> hours filter on with new filter media. scales may not growback with
> color depending on how much scales were lost and usually the healing
> process looks like rust is beginning to form around the areas where the
> scales were lost.
> sorry for the long message get a bigger setup here's a list of things
> you should get http://puregold.aquaria.net/pg/care/care1.htm#essentials

[Vissy Dartae]

(Alexandra) wrote in message >...
> tank (46 gallons) arrived. This supposed to be a new home for my
> goldfish and any new friends of her (3-4 of them). I am not sure what
> to do now. I will definitely wait for a week to cycle the new tank.
> Someone advised me that I change 20% of water in my 4-gallon tank each
> day. I will definitely do it till I move the fish to the new tank.
> The question is: How long should I wait till I get other fish for
> that tank? I do not want other fish to get sick, because my fish is
> sick (loosing scales). I have 2 plants, treasure box (with air
> bubbles) and another small decoration in a tank. Should I remove the
> decorations to give my fish more space?

A 46 gallon tank should be OK for about 4 goldfish until they get big,
but you'd have better luck with the water quality and fish health if
you keep the load down to 2 or 3. You could have two golds and maybe
a couple of small compatible trops like dojos or white cloud mountain
minnows.

Meanwhile I think I'd take the decorations out of the 4 gallon to
maximize the amount of water available and wait til you have the big
tank ready before you decorate. You have to keep testing the water
for ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, and pH to find out if it's cycled.
Ammonia shows up first, then nitrItes, then nitrAtes. All are toxic
to fish and have to be kept to a minimum. A good water conditioner
like Prime will help a little bit in the short term, but you have to
do big frequent water changes until the good bacteria get established.
Once you have only nitrAtes showing, your tank is cycled. There is a
product called BioSpira (by Marineland) which can rush this process,
but normally on its own a tank takes about 4-6 weeks to fully cycle.

The daily changes in the four gallon are a very good idea-- I'd go to
50% or more daily. In that small of a tank it shouldn't be very hard.

Good luck and have fun.

[Elizabeth Naime]

I've been thinking... why not move the single goldie into the 46 gallon?
I know it's not cycled yet, but what I'm thinking is that the more water
you have per fish, the less stressfull the cycle is going to be. With 46
gallons for one small fish ammonia just isn't going to build up so
quickly, and the biobugs might even be able to keep up -- even if water
changes are still needed, it seems the 46 gallon would be a better
environment.

If this were my fish I'd do the move now, and move any filter material I
can to preserve what biobugs you already have. I'd monitor water
conditions closely and do water changes whenever there's ammonia or
nitrite; I do water changes every week for maintenance, and that seems
to be enough to keep nitrates down. Then I'd wait for my singleton fish
to perk up and start healing. Scales will grow back if the fish is
otherwise healthy. For adding new fish, I'd be concerned about
quarantine. If you can swap filter media back and forth you might be
able to run the 4 gallon from established 46 gallon tank media and
quarantine one very small fish at a time.


-----------------------------------------
Only know that there is no spork.