PH Crashed Damn what's going on Now!

[Kodiak]

PH crashed in my 33gal three days ago.
stats were ammo 0, Nitrite 0, nitrate <10
but PH crashed to 6.0, KH was 0, kaput, nonexistant.
GH was very very low like 10. My Pleco died.

Did 50% water, PH only went up to 6.5, KH was still really bad.
Waited 12 hours and added 1 teaspoon baking soda.
PH went back up to 7.5 KH was 60 and GH 80. Fish got much
happier.

Today fish are acting all funny like they are hurting again.
Some are sitting on the bottom, most are bunched
together and hanging out near the filter inlet. Two of them
have minute signs of fin rot or look a bit frayed on the tips
that seems new. I rechecked stats all seems normal.
PH 7.5 KH 50, GH 60, ammo 0, nitrite0 nitrate<10.
Did another 30% water tonight and they seem much happier
again.

Tank is a bit overstocked but it's been running a long time
and never had these problems. I'm running a good airstone,
an Aquaclear300 with lavarock and biomax media, temp is
72, i use 48hour airstone aged temp matched water with
recomended shot of dechlor. I also run a 0.05% salt solution.

I usually do a 30% water
with gravel siphon once a week. However, now i really
really siphon the gravel, I run a garden hose to the basement
so it really gets the krud out. My Nitrates are really low now,
always less than 10ppm. Could it be i'm overcleaning the gravel
and killing off good bacteria? If so shouldn't I see ammo or Nitrite
spike? Did the PH swing cause long term damage that will take a
while to recover? Did the PH swing hurt my biofilter? If so wouldn't
I see a spike?

Anyone have any idea what's going on here?

....Kodiak

[Geezer From Freezer]

not sure why your PH crashed in the first place, but your fish "might"
not be happy because you raised the PH too fast

[Happy'Cam'per]

Ive missed the beginning of this thread so I don't have the full picture but
why on earth are you missioning so badly with the ph???
STOP IT.....leave it alone. Your fish will be fine!!! Try and keep it stable
rather than adding all sorts of crap that keeps shifting it all over the
place. Thats why your fish are dying!!!!! Just say NO :)
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**


"Kodiak" > wrote in message
. ..
> PH crashed in my 33gal three days ago.
> stats were ammo 0, Nitrite 0, nitrate <10
> but PH crashed to 6.0, KH was 0, kaput, nonexistant.
> GH was very very low like 10. My Pleco died.
>
> Did 50% water, PH only went up to 6.5, KH was still really bad.
> Waited 12 hours and added 1 teaspoon baking soda.
> PH went back up to 7.5 KH was 60 and GH 80. Fish got much
> happier.
>
> Today fish are acting all funny like they are hurting again.
> Some are sitting on the bottom, most are bunched
> together and hanging out near the filter inlet. Two of them
> have minute signs of fin rot or look a bit frayed on the tips
> that seems new. I rechecked stats all seems normal.
> PH 7.5 KH 50, GH 60, ammo 0, nitrite0 nitrate<10.
> Did another 30% water tonight and they seem much happier
> again.
>
> Tank is a bit overstocked but it's been running a long time
> and never had these problems. I'm running a good airstone,
> an Aquaclear300 with lavarock and biomax media, temp is
> 72, i use 48hour airstone aged temp matched water with
> recomended shot of dechlor. I also run a 0.05% salt solution.
>
> I usually do a 30% water
> with gravel siphon once a week. However, now i really
> really siphon the gravel, I run a garden hose to the basement
> so it really gets the krud out. My Nitrates are really low now,
> always less than 10ppm. Could it be i'm overcleaning the gravel
> and killing off good bacteria? If so shouldn't I see ammo or Nitrite
> spike? Did the PH swing cause long term damage that will take a
> while to recover? Did the PH swing hurt my biofilter? If so wouldn't
> I see a spike?
>
> Anyone have any idea what's going on here?
>
> ...Kodiak
>
>

[[email protected]]

when there is an inobvious problem with fish acting toxed out, or worse, fish dying
move the fish to a bucket of fresh water and then clean the tank out. your gravel
sounds like it has gone toxic. Jo Ann had every test known and she would get a
situation going where the fish were acting weird and NOTHING showed up on the tests
and she would just move the fish out to a new tank and she would empty and clean the
old one. some things cant be "figured out" in time to save the fish.
the longer any tank has been set up the more likely the tank has gone toxic somehow.
what kind of gravel you got?
Ingrid

"Kodiak" > wrote:

>PH crashed in my 33gal three days ago.
>stats were ammo 0, Nitrite 0, nitrate <10
>but PH crashed to 6.0, KH was 0, kaput, nonexistant.
>GH was very very low like 10. My Pleco died.
>
>Did 50% water, PH only went up to 6.5, KH was still really bad.
>Waited 12 hours and added 1 teaspoon baking soda.
>PH went back up to 7.5 KH was 60 and GH 80. Fish got much
>happier.
>
>Today fish are acting all funny like they are hurting again.
>Some are sitting on the bottom, most are bunched
>together and hanging out near the filter inlet. Two of them
>have minute signs of fin rot or look a bit frayed on the tips
>that seems new. I rechecked stats all seems normal.
>PH 7.5 KH 50, GH 60, ammo 0, nitrite0 nitrate<10.
>Did another 30% water tonight and they seem much happier
>again.
>
>Tank is a bit overstocked but it's been running a long time
>and never had these problems. I'm running a good airstone,
>an Aquaclear300 with lavarock and biomax media, temp is
>72, i use 48hour airstone aged temp matched water with
>recomended shot of dechlor. I also run a 0.05% salt solution.
>
>I usually do a 30% water
>with gravel siphon once a week. However, now i really
>really siphon the gravel, I run a garden hose to the basement
>so it really gets the krud out. My Nitrates are really low now,
>always less than 10ppm. Could it be i'm overcleaning the gravel
>and killing off good bacteria? If so shouldn't I see ammo or Nitrite
>spike? Did the PH swing cause long term damage that will take a
>while to recover? Did the PH swing hurt my biofilter? If so wouldn't
>I see a spike?
>
>Anyone have any idea what's going on here?
>
>...Kodiak
>



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Kodiak]

What is "fine" about my Pleco dying?
I guess you missed that although it was in THIS post.
You also missed that i raised the PH slowly
over a 24 hour period, first 12 hours with a 50%
water, and another 12 hours with the soda.
I guess you also missed that the soda made the fish
much happier. If I took your advice, and that would be do
nothing when your PH crashes, my fish would probably
all be dead by now and i would be a happy camper NOT!...
read this....

http://www.koivet.com/html/articles/articles_details.php?article_id=206&category=12&name=Water%20Quality

....Kodiak

"Happy'Cam'per" > wrote in message
...
>
> Ive missed the beginning of this thread so I don't have the full picture
but
> why on earth are you missioning so badly with the ph???
> STOP IT.....leave it alone. Your fish will be fine!!! Try and keep it
stable
> rather than adding all sorts of crap that keeps shifting it all over the
> place. Thats why your fish are dying!!!!! Just say NO :)
> --
> **So long, and thanks for all the fish!**
>
>
> "Kodiak" > wrote in message
> . ..
> > PH crashed in my 33gal three days ago.
> > stats were ammo 0, Nitrite 0, nitrate <10
> > but PH crashed to 6.0, KH was 0, kaput, nonexistant.
> > GH was very very low like 10. My Pleco died.
> >
> > Did 50% water, PH only went up to 6.5, KH was still really bad.
> > Waited 12 hours and added 1 teaspoon baking soda.
> > PH went back up to 7.5 KH was 60 and GH 80. Fish got much
> > happier.
> >
> > Today fish are acting all funny like they are hurting again.
> > Some are sitting on the bottom, most are bunched
> > together and hanging out near the filter inlet. Two of them
> > have minute signs of fin rot or look a bit frayed on the tips
> > that seems new. I rechecked stats all seems normal.
> > PH 7.5 KH 50, GH 60, ammo 0, nitrite0 nitrate<10.
> > Did another 30% water tonight and they seem much happier
> > again.
> >
> > Tank is a bit overstocked but it's been running a long time
> > and never had these problems. I'm running a good airstone,
> > an Aquaclear300 with lavarock and biomax media, temp is
> > 72, i use 48hour airstone aged temp matched water with
> > recomended shot of dechlor. I also run a 0.05% salt solution.
> >
> > I usually do a 30% water
> > with gravel siphon once a week. However, now i really
> > really siphon the gravel, I run a garden hose to the basement
> > so it really gets the krud out. My Nitrates are really low now,
> > always less than 10ppm. Could it be i'm overcleaning the gravel
> > and killing off good bacteria? If so shouldn't I see ammo or Nitrite
> > spike? Did the PH swing cause long term damage that will take a
> > while to recover? Did the PH swing hurt my biofilter? If so wouldn't
> > I see a spike?
> >
> > Anyone have any idea what's going on here?
> >
> > ...Kodiak
> >
> >
>
>

[Kodiak]

Thanks ingrid, i like where your going with this.
I have standard rainbow coulored Aquarium gravel,
bought it 5 years ago and been using it ever since
with no issues.

What I noticed that is weird is, i'll approach the tank
around feeding time, fish seem allright, they hang out at the
surface, i turn the lights on and feed them, they eat a bit,
then they dart around like mad and stop eating alltogether.
Could it be the black crud that accumulates on my aquarium
lid (i'm using egg crate material like the stuff to diffuse lights)
leaching back into the tank surface water? Is that stuff toxic?
Am I overcleaning the gravel? Is <10ppm Nitrates actually a
good thing?

I know the food is good cause I use it in my other tanks, no issues
with the other fish.

Still I suspect my water hardness is too low. My KH out of the tap
is around 30ppm or less, and when this whole thing started the PH crashed
and KH was 0, could toxins cause something like that?

....Kodiak


> wrote in message
...
> when there is an inobvious problem with fish acting toxed out, or worse,
fish dying
> move the fish to a bucket of fresh water and then clean the tank out.
your gravel
> sounds like it has gone toxic. Jo Ann had every test known and she would
get a
> situation going where the fish were acting weird and NOTHING showed up on
the tests
> and she would just move the fish out to a new tank and she would empty and
clean the
> old one. some things cant be "figured out" in time to save the fish.
> the longer any tank has been set up the more likely the tank has gone
toxic somehow.
> what kind of gravel you got?
> Ingrid
>
> "Kodiak" > wrote:
>
> >PH crashed in my 33gal three days ago.
> >stats were ammo 0, Nitrite 0, nitrate <10
> >but PH crashed to 6.0, KH was 0, kaput, nonexistant.
> >GH was very very low like 10. My Pleco died.
> >
> >Did 50% water, PH only went up to 6.5, KH was still really bad.
> >Waited 12 hours and added 1 teaspoon baking soda.
> >PH went back up to 7.5 KH was 60 and GH 80. Fish got much
> >happier.
> >
> >Today fish are acting all funny like they are hurting again.
> >Some are sitting on the bottom, most are bunched
> >together and hanging out near the filter inlet. Two of them
> >have minute signs of fin rot or look a bit frayed on the tips
> >that seems new. I rechecked stats all seems normal.
> >PH 7.5 KH 50, GH 60, ammo 0, nitrite0 nitrate<10.
> >Did another 30% water tonight and they seem much happier
> >again.
> >
> >Tank is a bit overstocked but it's been running a long time
> >and never had these problems. I'm running a good airstone,
> >an Aquaclear300 with lavarock and biomax media, temp is
> >72, i use 48hour airstone aged temp matched water with
> >recomended shot of dechlor. I also run a 0.05% salt solution.
> >
> >I usually do a 30% water
> >with gravel siphon once a week. However, now i really
> >really siphon the gravel, I run a garden hose to the basement
> >so it really gets the krud out. My Nitrates are really low now,
> >always less than 10ppm. Could it be i'm overcleaning the gravel
> >and killing off good bacteria? If so shouldn't I see ammo or Nitrite
> >spike? Did the PH swing cause long term damage that will take a
> >while to recover? Did the PH swing hurt my biofilter? If so wouldn't
> >I see a spike?
> >
> >Anyone have any idea what's going on here?
> >
> >...Kodiak
> >
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

unfortunately, the source you give is confused.
first of all, it doesnt take a lot of hydrogen ions to have the pH drop. In
distilled water there is no "buffer" so just a slight excess of H+ ions sends pH
spiraling downward. When there is a buffer present, the excess H+ hydrogen is
neutralized. The purpose of a buffer is to "resist" changes in the pH.
And rise in pH is due to an excess of OH- or hydroxide ions. Again, in distilled
water it doesnt take much OH to make the pH climb. And the buffer resist the change
in pH by neutralizing the excess OH-.
http://members.aol.com/BearFlag45/Biology1A/Reviews/ph.html

The major source of CO2 in water is from the air. Rotting vegetation will put CO2
into the water because it is one end product of bacterial action. A plant that is
submerged will use up CO2 during the day and put out oxygen. At night it uses up
oxygen and puts out some CO2, but much less than it is using unless the plant is dead
and decaying. Plants that only have their roots in the water will not even put that
much CO2 into the water. CO2 cannot dissolve endlessly in water. At around pH 6.4 no
more net CO2 will dissolve in water it just goes in as a gas to a limited extent.
that is, it enters a steady state with CO2 going into solution and coming out of
solution at the same rate. Fish can do fine at pH 6.4.

What pushes the pH down below around pH 6.4 is the presence of organic acids. Dead
plant matter and feces that are undergoing anaerobic digestion by bacteria will
result in partially digested organic breakdown products. These are acidic and can
continue to build up as long as there are bacteria that can live at those acid
conditions. When there is an abundance of oxygen where bacteria are "working" they
will break organic matter down to CO2 and H2O plus other non-toxic compound.

Organic dolomitic limestone is a good source of buffer having both calcium and
magnesium. Oyster shells have almost no magnesium
http://www.eggcartons.com/item653.htm which is one reason they are used as grit for
chickens --- magnesium evidently inhibits egg laying. I put the ground up organic
limestone loose in my filter where it is dissolved as needed. Not everything that is
lime is safe. There are limes that are unstable and cause pH to swing up and down,
there are limes that just keep going into solution to high pH and kill fish.. like
quick lime. So always, always try a handful of the lime material in a gallon of tank
or pond water and test the pH over a couple days to make absolutely sure it is safe
to use.

When baking soda is put into acidic water CO2 is liberated. Put a LOT of baking soda
into a very acidic water and a LOT of CO2 is generated which means that until that
CO2 has time to out gas and leave the water it is very toxic to the fish. Fish are
no different than we are. We cannot have high levels of CO2 in the air even if there
is plenty of oxygen. Fish cannot have high levels of CO2 in the water even if there
is oxygen. It is important to slowly add the baking soda WITH plenty of aeration.
It is the aeration that moves the CO2 out of the water. Vigorous aeration that
breaks the surface speeds the release of excess CO2.

And the big point should be that it isnt just the increase in CO2, it is the lack of
oxygen in a system that results in the accumulation of organic acids that leads to
acidosis and death in fish. So this is why bare bottom tanks are so good. There is
no where for rotting organics to accumulate and be broken down anaerobically. Well,
unless the filter is a closed system. One reason I like my hang over the back
Whispers is the filter is open to the air.

You did right in raising the pH but with aeration you could have raised it much
faster. Changing the pH from acid to pH 7.0 will not cause big problems. They dont
undergo the same kind of shock as going from acid to alkaline, or alkaline to acid.
Baking soda is a temporary fix. You need to get the hardness up, a good buffering
system established. Ingrid


"Kodiak" > wrote:
>You also missed that i raised the PH slowly
>over a 24 hour period, first 12 hours with a 50%
>water, and another 12 hours with the soda.
>I guess you also missed that the soda made the fish
>much happier. If I took your advice, and that would be do
>nothing when your PH crashes, my fish would probably
>all be dead by now and i would be a happy camper NOT!...
>read this....
>
>http://www.koivet.com/html/articles/articles_details.php?article_id=206&category=12&name=Water%20Quality
>
>...Kodiak


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

sorry, but that colored and maybe coated gravel breaks down and becomes really toxic
all on its own, even without being the site of anaerobic digestion. you are not over
cleaning your gravel, it has gone toxic. get it out, if you must use plain old pea
gravel.
yes, the black crud could be a toxic type of algae. bleach the lid, rinse well of
course. and get and use some organic dolomitic limestone. you can get this at
garden centers. it is usually quite gritty, white powder with darker gritty pieces.
try it out in a bucket of water for 2-3 days first, pHing it to make absolutely sure.
make sure it doesnt have any additives. mine actually just sits on the bottom of my
bare bottom tanks. please, dont consider using plaster of paris in any form. it
wont work. Ingrid

"Kodiak" > wrote:
>Thanks ingrid, i like where your going with this.
>I have standard rainbow coulored Aquarium gravel,
>bought it 5 years ago and been using it ever since
>with no issues.
>
>What I noticed that is weird is, i'll approach the tank
>around feeding time, fish seem allright, they hang out at the
>surface, i turn the lights on and feed them, they eat a bit,
>then they dart around like mad and stop eating alltogether.
>Could it be the black crud that accumulates on my aquarium
>lid (i'm using egg crate material like the stuff to diffuse lights)
>leaching back into the tank surface water? Is that stuff toxic?
>Am I overcleaning the gravel? Is <10ppm Nitrates actually a
>good thing?
>
>I know the food is good cause I use it in my other tanks, no issues
>with the other fish.
>
>Still I suspect my water hardness is too low. My KH out of the tap
>is around 30ppm or less, and when this whole thing started the PH crashed
>and KH was 0, could toxins cause something like that?
>
>...Kodiak
>
>
> wrote in message
...
>> when there is an inobvious problem with fish acting toxed out, or worse,
>fish dying
>> move the fish to a bucket of fresh water and then clean the tank out.
>your gravel
>> sounds like it has gone toxic. Jo Ann had every test known and she would
>get a
>> situation going where the fish were acting weird and NOTHING showed up on
>the tests
>> and she would just move the fish out to a new tank and she would empty and
>clean the
>> old one. some things cant be "figured out" in time to save the fish.
>> the longer any tank has been set up the more likely the tank has gone
>toxic somehow.
>> what kind of gravel you got?
>> Ingrid
>>
>> "Kodiak" > wrote:
>>
>> >PH crashed in my 33gal three days ago.
>> >stats were ammo 0, Nitrite 0, nitrate <10
>> >but PH crashed to 6.0, KH was 0, kaput, nonexistant.
>> >GH was very very low like 10. My Pleco died.
>> >
>> >Did 50% water, PH only went up to 6.5, KH was still really bad.
>> >Waited 12 hours and added 1 teaspoon baking soda.
>> >PH went back up to 7.5 KH was 60 and GH 80. Fish got much
>> >happier.
>> >
>> >Today fish are acting all funny like they are hurting again.
>> >Some are sitting on the bottom, most are bunched
>> >together and hanging out near the filter inlet. Two of them
>> >have minute signs of fin rot or look a bit frayed on the tips
>> >that seems new. I rechecked stats all seems normal.
>> >PH 7.5 KH 50, GH 60, ammo 0, nitrite0 nitrate<10.
>> >Did another 30% water tonight and they seem much happier
>> >again.
>> >
>> >Tank is a bit overstocked but it's been running a long time
>> >and never had these problems. I'm running a good airstone,
>> >an Aquaclear300 with lavarock and biomax media, temp is
>> >72, i use 48hour airstone aged temp matched water with
>> >recomended shot of dechlor. I also run a 0.05% salt solution.
>> >
>> >I usually do a 30% water
>> >with gravel siphon once a week. However, now i really
>> >really siphon the gravel, I run a garden hose to the basement
>> >so it really gets the krud out. My Nitrates are really low now,
>> >always less than 10ppm. Could it be i'm overcleaning the gravel
>> >and killing off good bacteria? If so shouldn't I see ammo or Nitrite
>> >spike? Did the PH swing cause long term damage that will take a
>> >while to recover? Did the PH swing hurt my biofilter? If so wouldn't
>> >I see a spike?
>> >
>> >Anyone have any idea what's going on here?
>> >
>> >...Kodiak
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
>> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
>> www.drsolo.com
>> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
>> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
>> endorsements or recommendations I make.
>



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[BErney1014]

>sorry, but that colored and maybe coated gravel breaks down and becomes
>really toxic
>all on its own,

Gravel will raise hardness if it's the "wrong" kind. Pour some acid on the
gravel, does it fizz? Kodiak's problem was lack of alkalinity.

you
>are not over
>cleaning your gravel, it has gone toxic. get it out, if you must use plain
>old pea
>gravel.

Kodiak, common practice is NOT to clean the entire bed at one time. If you are
serious, install a UGF.

>yes, the black crud could be a toxic type of algae. bleach the lid, rinse
>well of
>course.

She's making it up.

Good luck Kodiak, too bad she's feeding you voodoo.

[Kodiak]

Thanks for all the info Ingrid, I have a descent airstone and big
Aquaclear300
for a tank that small (33gal) but I didn't want to chance it and get too
much CO2
in there so I raised it slowly. I will definitely look into the dolomitic
limestone as
you mentioned in the other post.
....Kodiak

> wrote in message
...
> unfortunately, the source you give is confused.
> first of all, it doesnt take a lot of hydrogen ions to have the pH drop.
In
> distilled water there is no "buffer" so just a slight excess of H+ ions
sends pH
> spiraling downward. When there is a buffer present, the excess H+
hydrogen is
> neutralized. The purpose of a buffer is to "resist" changes in the pH.
> And rise in pH is due to an excess of OH- or hydroxide ions. Again, in
distilled
> water it doesnt take much OH to make the pH climb. And the buffer resist
the change
> in pH by neutralizing the excess OH-.
> http://members.aol.com/BearFlag45/Biology1A/Reviews/ph.html
>
> The major source of CO2 in water is from the air. Rotting vegetation will
put CO2
> into the water because it is one end product of bacterial action. A plant
that is
> submerged will use up CO2 during the day and put out oxygen. At night it
uses up
> oxygen and puts out some CO2, but much less than it is using unless the
plant is dead
> and decaying. Plants that only have their roots in the water will not
even put that
> much CO2 into the water. CO2 cannot dissolve endlessly in water. At
around pH 6.4 no
> more net CO2 will dissolve in water it just goes in as a gas to a limited
extent.
> that is, it enters a steady state with CO2 going into solution and coming
out of
> solution at the same rate. Fish can do fine at pH 6.4.
>
> What pushes the pH down below around pH 6.4 is the presence of organic
acids. Dead
> plant matter and feces that are undergoing anaerobic digestion by bacteria
will
> result in partially digested organic breakdown products. These are acidic
and can
> continue to build up as long as there are bacteria that can live at those
acid
> conditions. When there is an abundance of oxygen where bacteria are
"working" they
> will break organic matter down to CO2 and H2O plus other non-toxic
compound.
>
> Organic dolomitic limestone is a good source of buffer having both calcium
and
> magnesium. Oyster shells have almost no magnesium
> http://www.eggcartons.com/item653.htm which is one reason they are used
as grit for
> chickens --- magnesium evidently inhibits egg laying. I put the ground up
organic
> limestone loose in my filter where it is dissolved as needed. Not
everything that is
> lime is safe. There are limes that are unstable and cause pH to swing up
and down,
> there are limes that just keep going into solution to high pH and kill
fish.. like
> quick lime. So always, always try a handful of the lime material in a
gallon of tank
> or pond water and test the pH over a couple days to make absolutely sure
it is safe
> to use.
>
> When baking soda is put into acidic water CO2 is liberated. Put a LOT of
baking soda
> into a very acidic water and a LOT of CO2 is generated which means that
until that
> CO2 has time to out gas and leave the water it is very toxic to the fish.
Fish are
> no different than we are. We cannot have high levels of CO2 in the air
even if there
> is plenty of oxygen. Fish cannot have high levels of CO2 in the water
even if there
> is oxygen. It is important to slowly add the baking soda WITH plenty of
aeration.
> It is the aeration that moves the CO2 out of the water. Vigorous aeration
that
> breaks the surface speeds the release of excess CO2.
>
> And the big point should be that it isnt just the increase in CO2, it is
the lack of
> oxygen in a system that results in the accumulation of organic acids that
leads to
> acidosis and death in fish. So this is why bare bottom tanks are so good.
There is
> no where for rotting organics to accumulate and be broken down
anaerobically. Well,
> unless the filter is a closed system. One reason I like my hang over the
back
> Whispers is the filter is open to the air.
>
> You did right in raising the pH but with aeration you could have raised it
much
> faster. Changing the pH from acid to pH 7.0 will not cause big problems.
They dont
> undergo the same kind of shock as going from acid to alkaline, or alkaline
to acid.
> Baking soda is a temporary fix. You need to get the hardness up, a good
buffering
> system established. Ingrid
>
>
> "Kodiak" > wrote:
> >You also missed that i raised the PH slowly
> >over a 24 hour period, first 12 hours with a 50%
> >water, and another 12 hours with the soda.
> >I guess you also missed that the soda made the fish
> >much happier. If I took your advice, and that would be do
> >nothing when your PH crashes, my fish would probably
> >all be dead by now and i would be a happy camper NOT!...
> >read this....
> >
>
>http://www.koivet.com/html/articles/articles_details.php?article_id=206&cat
egory=12&name=Water%20Quality
> >
> >...Kodiak
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> www.drsolo.com
> Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Kodiak]

Hi Berney,
You made me laugh with this post (voodoo reference) ...:)
This stuff sure does seem like VooDoo to m sometimes.
I've been watching this group and most people don't believe in the
UGF. Are you having good results with a UGF? Didn't think
it was ideal for Goldfish. Please comment on your setup.

About your comment on not cleaning the entire gravel bed at the
same time, are you saying that maybe I did overclean my gravel?
My Nitrates use to hover around 40ppm, 50ppm worst case.
After i devised this killer suction gravel siphoner system (I attach
a 3/4" garden hose to a python and run it 20ft down into the basement,
the suction is crazy) now my Nitrates are always below10ppm, is that
a bad thing?

Besides that it's true that my city water KH is way too low (25ppm)
I really think my problem was as you say, lack of Alkhalinity.

....Kodiak

"BErney1014" > wrote in message
...
>
> >sorry, but that colored and maybe coated gravel breaks down and becomes
> >really toxic
> >all on its own,
>
> Gravel will raise hardness if it's the "wrong" kind. Pour some acid on the
> gravel, does it fizz? Kodiak's problem was lack of alkalinity.
>
> you
> >are not over
> >cleaning your gravel, it has gone toxic. get it out, if you must use
plain
> >old pea
> >gravel.
>
> Kodiak, common practice is NOT to clean the entire bed at one time. If you
are
> serious, install a UGF.
>
> >yes, the black crud could be a toxic type of algae. bleach the lid,
rinse
> >well of
> >course.
>
> She's making it up.
>
> Good luck Kodiak, too bad she's feeding you voodoo.

[[email protected]]

unless you boiled or bleached your gravel there is no way to over clean regular
gravel. if your gravel is coated your siphoning may have accelerated the removal of
the plastic like coating, but it really couldnt harm normal gravel. You were doing
it the right way if you kept nitrates down. accumulation of rotting organic stuff in
the gravel is what leads to high nitrates all the time.
even smooth gravel has small pores in it, this is where the colonies of biobugs are
found. organic stuff that filters down onto the gravel and covers it forms a barrier
to the oxygen and water getting to the colonies, this stops the colonies from
working, so if the entire gravel bed can be siphoned without removing all the tank
water, that is recommended. Ingrid

"Kodiak" > wrote:
>About your comment on not cleaning the entire gravel bed at the
>same time, are you saying that maybe I did overclean my gravel?
>My Nitrates use to hover around 40ppm, 50ppm worst case.
>After i devised this killer suction gravel siphoner system (I attach
>a 3/4" garden hose to a python and run it 20ft down into the basement,
>the suction is crazy) now my Nitrates are always below10ppm, is that
>a bad thing?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Geezer From Freezer]

Ingrid is spot on with that post.

[BErney1014]

>Are you having good results with a UGF? Didn't think
>it was ideal for Goldfish. Please comment on your setup.
>
>About your comment on not cleaning the entire gravel bed at the
>same time, are you saying that maybe I did

Kodiak,
I told you in my first post exactly what happened in your tank and I gave you
the product to fix the problem for good. Seachem equilibrium. It's that simple.
I gave you the name of a reference in the tech talk at Aquatic eco systems web
site and a quote from real science. The site has the chart for you to see the
co2 level you had and explain why the pH drop, etc.
Gravel cleaning is a distruption of a shallow layer of bio film, not a big deal
unless you have a borderline situation like you do with low alkalinity. Carbon
based life forms utilize carbon, in water they suck out carbonates.
You can, for the short term, add baking soda and a little epsom salt to hold
you over.

If you have an interest in my tanks, fine, I can explain it in simple terms:
balance. I have a tank with a ugf deep substrate and NO FILTER. It's been
running for over five years. I have another with deep onxy sand that's been
running for two years, no ugf, it has a sump. What do you want to know?
Again, good luck

[Tom La Bron]

Kodiak,

You may not be able to find Dolomite limestone, it is not carried just any
where any more. You used to able to buy it all the time for it was used as
a supplement for cattle and sheep, but about the only place you can find it
now are places where there is a lot of aquaculture facilities. If you can't
find it you may have to try oyster shells. I you have a feed store near you
can get oyster shell chicken grit, or if that is not available you can some
time go to the bird area of your local pet store and look for certain bird
grits. Wash it very good, for sometimes it is pretty dusty, and then put in
a bag made of nylon net from the yard good area of a sewing store or tulle.
Put the bag either in the discharge area of the filter or in the jump flow
of bubbles from you airstone.

Oyster shells keep my ponds between 80 and 129ppm of KH.

HTH

Tom L.L.
-----------------------------------

"Kodiak" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks for all the info Ingrid, I have a descent airstone and big
> Aquaclear300
> for a tank that small (33gal) but I didn't want to chance it and get too
> much CO2
> in there so I raised it slowly. I will definitely look into the dolomitic
> limestone as
> you mentioned in the other post.
> ...Kodiak
>
> > wrote in message
> ...
> > unfortunately, the source you give is confused.
> > first of all, it doesnt take a lot of hydrogen ions to have the pH drop.
> In
> > distilled water there is no "buffer" so just a slight excess of H+ ions
> sends pH
> > spiraling downward. When there is a buffer present, the excess H+
> hydrogen is
> > neutralized. The purpose of a buffer is to "resist" changes in the pH.
> > And rise in pH is due to an excess of OH- or hydroxide ions. Again, in
> distilled
> > water it doesnt take much OH to make the pH climb. And the buffer
resist
> the change
> > in pH by neutralizing the excess OH-.
> > http://members.aol.com/BearFlag45/Biology1A/Reviews/ph.html
> >
> > The major source of CO2 in water is from the air. Rotting vegetation
will
> put CO2
> > into the water because it is one end product of bacterial action. A
plant
> that is
> > submerged will use up CO2 during the day and put out oxygen. At night it
> uses up
> > oxygen and puts out some CO2, but much less than it is using unless the
> plant is dead
> > and decaying. Plants that only have their roots in the water will not
> even put that
> > much CO2 into the water. CO2 cannot dissolve endlessly in water. At
> around pH 6.4 no
> > more net CO2 will dissolve in water it just goes in as a gas to a
limited
> extent.
> > that is, it enters a steady state with CO2 going into solution and
coming
> out of
> > solution at the same rate. Fish can do fine at pH 6.4.
> >
> > What pushes the pH down below around pH 6.4 is the presence of organic
> acids. Dead
> > plant matter and feces that are undergoing anaerobic digestion by
bacteria
> will
> > result in partially digested organic breakdown products. These are
acidic
> and can
> > continue to build up as long as there are bacteria that can live at
those
> acid
> > conditions. When there is an abundance of oxygen where bacteria are
> "working" they
> > will break organic matter down to CO2 and H2O plus other non-toxic
> compound.
> >
> > Organic dolomitic limestone is a good source of buffer having both
calcium
> and
> > magnesium. Oyster shells have almost no magnesium
> > http://www.eggcartons.com/item653.htm which is one reason they are used
> as grit for
> > chickens --- magnesium evidently inhibits egg laying. I put the ground
up
> organic
> > limestone loose in my filter where it is dissolved as needed. Not
> everything that is
> > lime is safe. There are limes that are unstable and cause pH to swing
up
> and down,
> > there are limes that just keep going into solution to high pH and kill
> fish.. like
> > quick lime. So always, always try a handful of the lime material in a
> gallon of tank
> > or pond water and test the pH over a couple days to make absolutely sure
> it is safe
> > to use.
> >
> > When baking soda is put into acidic water CO2 is liberated. Put a LOT
of
> baking soda
> > into a very acidic water and a LOT of CO2 is generated which means that
> until that
> > CO2 has time to out gas and leave the water it is very toxic to the
fish.
> Fish are
> > no different than we are. We cannot have high levels of CO2 in the air
> even if there
> > is plenty of oxygen. Fish cannot have high levels of CO2 in the water
> even if there
> > is oxygen. It is important to slowly add the baking soda WITH plenty of
> aeration.
> > It is the aeration that moves the CO2 out of the water. Vigorous
aeration
> that
> > breaks the surface speeds the release of excess CO2.
> >
> > And the big point should be that it isnt just the increase in CO2, it is
> the lack of
> > oxygen in a system that results in the accumulation of organic acids
that
> leads to
> > acidosis and death in fish. So this is why bare bottom tanks are so
good.
> There is
> > no where for rotting organics to accumulate and be broken down
> anaerobically. Well,
> > unless the filter is a closed system. One reason I like my hang over
the
> back
> > Whispers is the filter is open to the air.
> >
> > You did right in raising the pH but with aeration you could have raised
it
> much
> > faster. Changing the pH from acid to pH 7.0 will not cause big
problems.
> They dont
> > undergo the same kind of shock as going from acid to alkaline, or
alkaline
> to acid.
> > Baking soda is a temporary fix. You need to get the hardness up, a
good
> buffering
> > system established. Ingrid
> >
> >
> > "Kodiak" > wrote:
> > >You also missed that i raised the PH slowly
> > >over a 24 hour period, first 12 hours with a 50%
> > >water, and another 12 hours with the soda.
> > >I guess you also missed that the soda made the fish
> > >much happier. If I took your advice, and that would be do
> > >nothing when your PH crashes, my fish would probably
> > >all be dead by now and i would be a happy camper NOT!...
> > >read this....
> > >
> >
>
>http://www.koivet.com/html/articles/articles_details.php?article_id=206&cat
> egory=12&name=Water%20Quality
> > >
> > >...Kodiak
> >
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> > http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> > www.drsolo.com
> > Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> > compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> > endorsements or recommendations I make.
>
>

[Kodiak]

Sorry Berney, I didn't get your post until this evening.
And that was the post on the 24th about "The Relationship
of Hardness, Alkalinity and Carbon Dioxide" I'm not sure
it's the same post you mean here since i don't see any reference
to Seachem Equilibrium product.

You did mention a graph in that post about "Carbon dioxide level can be
estimated, using the graph on this page, if the pH and alkalinity are
known."

but there was no graph on my page, and no link pointing to a graph.

My ISP has been giving me problems lately and I do miss some posts
occasionally.
Please repost if you can.

About your UGF, i wanted to know if it's true about the problems like when
gravel gets pushed out and "short circuits" as they say, the UGF. But I
imagine
that's why you have deep substrate. How practical is a UGF for a big tank
like 100
gallon, does anyone even make a UGF for tanks that size? Also what do you
think of
those sponge filters you just bury gravel around and attach an air pump to
it?

....Kodiak

"BErney1014" > wrote in message
...
> >Are you having good results with a UGF? Didn't think
> >it was ideal for Goldfish. Please comment on your setup.
> >
> >About your comment on not cleaning the entire gravel bed at the
> >same time, are you saying that maybe I did
>
> Kodiak,
> I told you in my first post exactly what happened in your tank and I gave
you
> the product to fix the problem for good. Seachem equilibrium. It's that
simple.
> I gave you the name of a reference in the tech talk at Aquatic eco systems
web
> site and a quote from real science. The site has the chart for you to see
the
> co2 level you had and explain why the pH drop, etc.
> Gravel cleaning is a distruption of a shallow layer of bio film, not a big
deal
> unless you have a borderline situation like you do with low alkalinity.
Carbon
> based life forms utilize carbon, in water they suck out carbonates.
> You can, for the short term, add baking soda and a little epsom salt to
hold
> you over.
>
> If you have an interest in my tanks, fine, I can explain it in simple
terms:
> balance. I have a tank with a ugf deep substrate and NO FILTER. It's been
> running for over five years. I have another with deep onxy sand that's
been
> running for two years, no ugf, it has a sump. What do you want to know?
> Again, good luck

[Tom La Bron]

Kodiak,

Many of us have used UGF's for years. Many people don't appreciate UGF's is
because of bad press and because they too are susceptible to overstocking
and overfeeding of the Goldfish just like any filter, even powerfilters, but
the problems that occur to UGF's are not easily seen. In my opinion, and
because of my extensive experience, I think the UGF is just a good escape
goat for problems that occur. Hey, you have to put the blame somewhere, why
not the UGF. Case in point, is your situation, you are having a problem and
the first thing that Ingrid suggests is the UGF is the problem and if it is
not that it is the kind of sand you are using.

At one time I had one UGF tank set up for 12 years, the latest one was set
up for 7 years. Never had a problem with either. The problem most people
have with UGF's is that they are not setup correctly. You should have 1 1/2
inches of gravel on top of the UGF plates to 2 inches. If you are using a
Reverse UGF you need to have at least 2 inches to almost three inches of
gravel. The reason for the deeper levels with RUGF is due to the water
being pushed through the filters by high power powerheads. In any event,
the secret is the depth of the sand. Just for my own piece of mind I still
usually run a small power filter in conjunction with the UGF.

I have been around long enough to know there was a time when UGF were the
high tech alternative to air driven outside filters. There was no such
thing as powerfilters with little motors in them. At one time I had one of
the professional air driven filters that was a plastic box that was about 12
inches square and had two siphon tubes in with s-curves that were 1 inch in
diameter and a air driven return that pumped almost 500 gallons an hour. Of
course, you needed a Silent Giant air pump to run just one of these filters,
but it was pretty impressive.

So much for the history lesson, the point is that UGF's have been around and
used for a long time and when you clean the gravel in a tank with an UGF
you use the suction tube and use a pattern method or quadrant method for
cleaning the sand. Then the next time you vacuum you used a different
pattern and/or go to a different quadrant.

Water changes are up to you. I use philodendrons in my tanks and tubs while
the fish are in the house and my nitrates are virtually zero. The thing you
have to remember is that if your tank is cycled the KH is going to be eaten
up by the biocycle so it is important that the KH stays up between 80 and
120ppm. If you don't keep your KH up you pH will crash. It is just that
simple. For a quick and easy fix to your balance problem the Seachem
product that Bruce mentions works great, and in my case for long term
affects the oyster shell chicken grit works great. I would certainly try a
feed store for the oyster chicken grit because it is a lot cheaper that way
that getting it from the pet shop.

In any event, it is not the fault of your UGF it is poor water management.
You have to remember you are the keeper of the environment, and you are
working with small amounts of water that if not taken care of will kick you
in the pants. It is just that simple Goldfish Husbandry.

Good luck, and HTH.

Tom L.L.
---------------------------------------------
"Kodiak" > wrote in message
...
> Hi Berney,
> You made me laugh with this post (voodoo reference) ...:)
> This stuff sure does seem like VooDoo to m sometimes.
> I've been watching this group and most people don't believe in the
> UGF. Are you having good results with a UGF? Didn't think
> it was ideal for Goldfish. Please comment on your setup.
>
> About your comment on not cleaning the entire gravel bed at the
> same time, are you saying that maybe I did overclean my gravel?
> My Nitrates use to hover around 40ppm, 50ppm worst case.
> After i devised this killer suction gravel siphoner system (I attach
> a 3/4" garden hose to a python and run it 20ft down into the basement,
> the suction is crazy) now my Nitrates are always below10ppm, is that
> a bad thing?
>
> Besides that it's true that my city water KH is way too low (25ppm)
> I really think my problem was as you say, lack of Alkhalinity.
>
> ...Kodiak
>
> "BErney1014" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > >sorry, but that colored and maybe coated gravel breaks down and becomes
> > >really toxic
> > >all on its own,
> >
> > Gravel will raise hardness if it's the "wrong" kind. Pour some acid on
the
> > gravel, does it fizz? Kodiak's problem was lack of alkalinity.
> >
> > you
> > >are not over
> > >cleaning your gravel, it has gone toxic. get it out, if you must use
> plain
> > >old pea
> > >gravel.
> >
> > Kodiak, common practice is NOT to clean the entire bed at one time. If
you
> are
> > serious, install a UGF.
> >
> > >yes, the black crud could be a toxic type of algae. bleach the lid,
> rinse
> > >well of
> > >course.
> >
> > She's making it up.
> >
> > Good luck Kodiak, too bad she's feeding you voodoo.
>
>

[Kodiak]

Hey Tom,
I just bought some crushed Coral and was about to do
the same thing. (put it in a baggy and jam it into my
Aquaclear 500). You think it will be as good as the Oyster shells?
....Kodiak

"Tom La Bron" > wrote in message
...
> Kodiak,
>
> You may not be able to find Dolomite limestone, it is not carried just any
> where any more. You used to able to buy it all the time for it was used
as
> a supplement for cattle and sheep, but about the only place you can find
it
> now are places where there is a lot of aquaculture facilities. If you
can't
> find it you may have to try oyster shells. I you have a feed store near
you
> can get oyster shell chicken grit, or if that is not available you can
some
> time go to the bird area of your local pet store and look for certain bird
> grits. Wash it very good, for sometimes it is pretty dusty, and then put
in
> a bag made of nylon net from the yard good area of a sewing store or
tulle.
> Put the bag either in the discharge area of the filter or in the jump flow
> of bubbles from you airstone.
>
> Oyster shells keep my ponds between 80 and 129ppm of KH.
>
> HTH
>
> Tom L.L.
> -----------------------------------
>
> "Kodiak" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Thanks for all the info Ingrid, I have a descent airstone and big
> > Aquaclear300
> > for a tank that small (33gal) but I didn't want to chance it and get too
> > much CO2
> > in there so I raised it slowly. I will definitely look into the
dolomitic
> > limestone as
> > you mentioned in the other post.
> > ...Kodiak
> >
> > > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > unfortunately, the source you give is confused.
> > > first of all, it doesnt take a lot of hydrogen ions to have the pH
drop.
> > In
> > > distilled water there is no "buffer" so just a slight excess of H+
ions
> > sends pH
> > > spiraling downward. When there is a buffer present, the excess H+
> > hydrogen is
> > > neutralized. The purpose of a buffer is to "resist" changes in the
pH.
> > > And rise in pH is due to an excess of OH- or hydroxide ions. Again,
in
> > distilled
> > > water it doesnt take much OH to make the pH climb. And the buffer
> resist
> > the change
> > > in pH by neutralizing the excess OH-.
> > > http://members.aol.com/BearFlag45/Biology1A/Reviews/ph.html
> > >
> > > The major source of CO2 in water is from the air. Rotting vegetation
> will
> > put CO2
> > > into the water because it is one end product of bacterial action. A
> plant
> > that is
> > > submerged will use up CO2 during the day and put out oxygen. At night
it
> > uses up
> > > oxygen and puts out some CO2, but much less than it is using unless
the
> > plant is dead
> > > and decaying. Plants that only have their roots in the water will not
> > even put that
> > > much CO2 into the water. CO2 cannot dissolve endlessly in water. At
> > around pH 6.4 no
> > > more net CO2 will dissolve in water it just goes in as a gas to a
> limited
> > extent.
> > > that is, it enters a steady state with CO2 going into solution and
> coming
> > out of
> > > solution at the same rate. Fish can do fine at pH 6.4.
> > >
> > > What pushes the pH down below around pH 6.4 is the presence of organic
> > acids. Dead
> > > plant matter and feces that are undergoing anaerobic digestion by
> bacteria
> > will
> > > result in partially digested organic breakdown products. These are
> acidic
> > and can
> > > continue to build up as long as there are bacteria that can live at
> those
> > acid
> > > conditions. When there is an abundance of oxygen where bacteria are
> > "working" they
> > > will break organic matter down to CO2 and H2O plus other non-toxic
> > compound.
> > >
> > > Organic dolomitic limestone is a good source of buffer having both
> calcium
> > and
> > > magnesium. Oyster shells have almost no magnesium
> > > http://www.eggcartons.com/item653.htm which is one reason they are
used
> > as grit for
> > > chickens --- magnesium evidently inhibits egg laying. I put the
ground
> up
> > organic
> > > limestone loose in my filter where it is dissolved as needed. Not
> > everything that is
> > > lime is safe. There are limes that are unstable and cause pH to swing
> up
> > and down,
> > > there are limes that just keep going into solution to high pH and kill
> > fish.. like
> > > quick lime. So always, always try a handful of the lime material in a
> > gallon of tank
> > > or pond water and test the pH over a couple days to make absolutely
sure
> > it is safe
> > > to use.
> > >
> > > When baking soda is put into acidic water CO2 is liberated. Put a LOT
> of
> > baking soda
> > > into a very acidic water and a LOT of CO2 is generated which means
that
> > until that
> > > CO2 has time to out gas and leave the water it is very toxic to the
> fish.
> > Fish are
> > > no different than we are. We cannot have high levels of CO2 in the
air
> > even if there
> > > is plenty of oxygen. Fish cannot have high levels of CO2 in the water
> > even if there
> > > is oxygen. It is important to slowly add the baking soda WITH plenty
of
> > aeration.
> > > It is the aeration that moves the CO2 out of the water. Vigorous
> aeration
> > that
> > > breaks the surface speeds the release of excess CO2.
> > >
> > > And the big point should be that it isnt just the increase in CO2, it
is
> > the lack of
> > > oxygen in a system that results in the accumulation of organic acids
> that
> > leads to
> > > acidosis and death in fish. So this is why bare bottom tanks are so
> good.
> > There is
> > > no where for rotting organics to accumulate and be broken down
> > anaerobically. Well,
> > > unless the filter is a closed system. One reason I like my hang over
> the
> > back
> > > Whispers is the filter is open to the air.
> > >
> > > You did right in raising the pH but with aeration you could have
raised
> it
> > much
> > > faster. Changing the pH from acid to pH 7.0 will not cause big
> problems.
> > They dont
> > > undergo the same kind of shock as going from acid to alkaline, or
> alkaline
> > to acid.
> > > Baking soda is a temporary fix. You need to get the hardness up, a
> good
> > buffering
> > > system established. Ingrid
> > >
> > >
> > > "Kodiak" > wrote:
> > > >You also missed that i raised the PH slowly
> > > >over a 24 hour period, first 12 hours with a 50%
> > > >water, and another 12 hours with the soda.
> > > >I guess you also missed that the soda made the fish
> > > >much happier. If I took your advice, and that would be do
> > > >nothing when your PH crashes, my fish would probably
> > > >all be dead by now and i would be a happy camper NOT!...
> > > >read this....
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>http://www.koivet.com/html/articles/articles_details.php?article_id=206&cat
> > egory=12&name=Water%20Quality
> > > >
> > > >...Kodiak
> > >
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> > > http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> > > www.drsolo.com
> > > Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> > > compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> > > endorsements or recommendations I make.
> >
> >
>
>

[Kodiak]

Hey Tom,
Thanks for the UGF info. I don't have a UGF, but i
was thinking of putting one in tandem with the AquaClear 300.
Have you gotten better results with RUGF? Why is it better or worst?
I was also thinking of putting in the Phillies, How do you put them
in the tank? Are any of the leaves submersed? Do you just use a
floating mesh basket and let the roots grow in them and the leaves
hang outside of the tank? As for the Aquaclear 300 (33gallon tank with
five 1.5"-2" Goldfish) how often would you clean/rinse filter media? (with
tank
water of course).
....Kodiak


"Tom La Bron" > wrote in message
...
> Kodiak,
>
> Many of us have used UGF's for years. Many people don't appreciate UGF's
is
> because of bad press and because they too are susceptible to overstocking
> and overfeeding of the Goldfish just like any filter, even powerfilters,
but
> the problems that occur to UGF's are not easily seen. In my opinion, and
> because of my extensive experience, I think the UGF is just a good escape
> goat for problems that occur. Hey, you have to put the blame somewhere,
why
> not the UGF. Case in point, is your situation, you are having a problem
and
> the first thing that Ingrid suggests is the UGF is the problem and if it
is
> not that it is the kind of sand you are using.
>
> At one time I had one UGF tank set up for 12 years, the latest one was set
> up for 7 years. Never had a problem with either. The problem most people
> have with UGF's is that they are not setup correctly. You should have 1
1/2
> inches of gravel on top of the UGF plates to 2 inches. If you are using a
> Reverse UGF you need to have at least 2 inches to almost three inches of
> gravel. The reason for the deeper levels with RUGF is due to the water
> being pushed through the filters by high power powerheads. In any event,
> the secret is the depth of the sand. Just for my own piece of mind I
still
> usually run a small power filter in conjunction with the UGF.
>
> I have been around long enough to know there was a time when UGF were the
> high tech alternative to air driven outside filters. There was no such
> thing as powerfilters with little motors in them. At one time I had one
of
> the professional air driven filters that was a plastic box that was about
12
> inches square and had two siphon tubes in with s-curves that were 1 inch
in
> diameter and a air driven return that pumped almost 500 gallons an hour.
Of
> course, you needed a Silent Giant air pump to run just one of these
filters,
> but it was pretty impressive.
>
> So much for the history lesson, the point is that UGF's have been around
and
> used for a long time and when you clean the gravel in a tank with an UGF
> you use the suction tube and use a pattern method or quadrant method for
> cleaning the sand. Then the next time you vacuum you used a different
> pattern and/or go to a different quadrant.
>
> Water changes are up to you. I use philodendrons in my tanks and tubs
while
> the fish are in the house and my nitrates are virtually zero. The thing
you
> have to remember is that if your tank is cycled the KH is going to be
eaten
> up by the biocycle so it is important that the KH stays up between 80 and
> 120ppm. If you don't keep your KH up you pH will crash. It is just that
> simple. For a quick and easy fix to your balance problem the Seachem
> product that Bruce mentions works great, and in my case for long term
> affects the oyster shell chicken grit works great. I would certainly try
a
> feed store for the oyster chicken grit because it is a lot cheaper that
way
> that getting it from the pet shop.
>
> In any event, it is not the fault of your UGF it is poor water management.
> You have to remember you are the keeper of the environment, and you are
> working with small amounts of water that if not taken care of will kick
you
> in the pants. It is just that simple Goldfish Husbandry.
>
> Good luck, and HTH.
>
> Tom L.L.
> ---------------------------------------------
> "Kodiak" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Hi Berney,
> > You made me laugh with this post (voodoo reference) ...:)
> > This stuff sure does seem like VooDoo to m sometimes.
> > I've been watching this group and most people don't believe in the
> > UGF. Are you having good results with a UGF? Didn't think
> > it was ideal for Goldfish. Please comment on your setup.
> >
> > About your comment on not cleaning the entire gravel bed at the
> > same time, are you saying that maybe I did overclean my gravel?
> > My Nitrates use to hover around 40ppm, 50ppm worst case.
> > After i devised this killer suction gravel siphoner system (I attach
> > a 3/4" garden hose to a python and run it 20ft down into the basement,
> > the suction is crazy) now my Nitrates are always below10ppm, is that
> > a bad thing?
> >
> > Besides that it's true that my city water KH is way too low (25ppm)
> > I really think my problem was as you say, lack of Alkhalinity.
> >
> > ...Kodiak
> >
> > "BErney1014" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > >sorry, but that colored and maybe coated gravel breaks down and
becomes
> > > >really toxic
> > > >all on its own,
> > >
> > > Gravel will raise hardness if it's the "wrong" kind. Pour some acid on
> the
> > > gravel, does it fizz? Kodiak's problem was lack of alkalinity.
> > >
> > > you
> > > >are not over
> > > >cleaning your gravel, it has gone toxic. get it out, if you must use
> > plain
> > > >old pea
> > > >gravel.
> > >
> > > Kodiak, common practice is NOT to clean the entire bed at one time. If
> you
> > are
> > > serious, install a UGF.
> > >
> > > >yes, the black crud could be a toxic type of algae. bleach the lid,
> > rinse
> > > >well of
> > > >course.
> > >
> > > She's making it up.
> > >
> > > Good luck Kodiak, too bad she's feeding you voodoo.
> >
> >
>
>

[Tom La Bron]

Kodiak,

It is a good alternative. Just pack it loose so the water will flow through
it. You really don't need a lot unless you water is pretty acidic. In my
ponds I have a tray of the oyster shells in the filter and every spring I
put about three quarters of an inch in it. One year when we had incessant
rains when I put more shells in the next Spring there was only about 3/8 of
an inch left in the tray. You don't necessarily see the decrease but it
does occur.

Tom L.L.
-------------------------------------
"Kodiak" > wrote in message
.. .
> Hey Tom,
> I just bought some crushed Coral and was about to do
> the same thing. (put it in a baggy and jam it into my
> Aquaclear 500). You think it will be as good as the Oyster shells?
> ...Kodiak
>
> "Tom La Bron" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Kodiak,
> >
> > You may not be able to find Dolomite limestone, it is not carried just
any
> > where any more. You used to able to buy it all the time for it was used
> as
> > a supplement for cattle and sheep, but about the only place you can find
> it
> > now are places where there is a lot of aquaculture facilities. If you
> can't
> > find it you may have to try oyster shells. I you have a feed store near
> you
> > can get oyster shell chicken grit, or if that is not available you can
> some
> > time go to the bird area of your local pet store and look for certain
bird
> > grits. Wash it very good, for sometimes it is pretty dusty, and then
put
> in
> > a bag made of nylon net from the yard good area of a sewing store or
> tulle.
> > Put the bag either in the discharge area of the filter or in the jump
flow
> > of bubbles from you airstone.
> >
> > Oyster shells keep my ponds between 80 and 129ppm of KH.
> >
> > HTH
> >
> > Tom L.L.
> > -----------------------------------
> >
> > "Kodiak" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Thanks for all the info Ingrid, I have a descent airstone and big
> > > Aquaclear300
> > > for a tank that small (33gal) but I didn't want to chance it and get
too
> > > much CO2
> > > in there so I raised it slowly. I will definitely look into the
> dolomitic
> > > limestone as
> > > you mentioned in the other post.
> > > ...Kodiak
> > >
> > > > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > unfortunately, the source you give is confused.
> > > > first of all, it doesnt take a lot of hydrogen ions to have the pH
> drop.
> > > In
> > > > distilled water there is no "buffer" so just a slight excess of H+
> ions
> > > sends pH
> > > > spiraling downward. When there is a buffer present, the excess H+
> > > hydrogen is
> > > > neutralized. The purpose of a buffer is to "resist" changes in the
> pH.
> > > > And rise in pH is due to an excess of OH- or hydroxide ions. Again,
> in
> > > distilled
> > > > water it doesnt take much OH to make the pH climb. And the buffer
> > resist
> > > the change
> > > > in pH by neutralizing the excess OH-.
> > > > http://members.aol.com/BearFlag45/Biology1A/Reviews/ph.html
> > > >
> > > > The major source of CO2 in water is from the air. Rotting
vegetation
> > will
> > > put CO2
> > > > into the water because it is one end product of bacterial action. A
> > plant
> > > that is
> > > > submerged will use up CO2 during the day and put out oxygen. At
night
> it
> > > uses up
> > > > oxygen and puts out some CO2, but much less than it is using unless
> the
> > > plant is dead
> > > > and decaying. Plants that only have their roots in the water will
not
> > > even put that
> > > > much CO2 into the water. CO2 cannot dissolve endlessly in water. At
> > > around pH 6.4 no
> > > > more net CO2 will dissolve in water it just goes in as a gas to a
> > limited
> > > extent.
> > > > that is, it enters a steady state with CO2 going into solution and
> > coming
> > > out of
> > > > solution at the same rate. Fish can do fine at pH 6.4.
> > > >
> > > > What pushes the pH down below around pH 6.4 is the presence of
organic
> > > acids. Dead
> > > > plant matter and feces that are undergoing anaerobic digestion by
> > bacteria
> > > will
> > > > result in partially digested organic breakdown products. These are
> > acidic
> > > and can
> > > > continue to build up as long as there are bacteria that can live at
> > those
> > > acid
> > > > conditions. When there is an abundance of oxygen where bacteria are
> > > "working" they
> > > > will break organic matter down to CO2 and H2O plus other non-toxic
> > > compound.
> > > >
> > > > Organic dolomitic limestone is a good source of buffer having both
> > calcium
> > > and
> > > > magnesium. Oyster shells have almost no magnesium
> > > > http://www.eggcartons.com/item653.htm which is one reason they are
> used
> > > as grit for
> > > > chickens --- magnesium evidently inhibits egg laying. I put the
> ground
> > up
> > > organic
> > > > limestone loose in my filter where it is dissolved as needed. Not
> > > everything that is
> > > > lime is safe. There are limes that are unstable and cause pH to
swing
> > up
> > > and down,
> > > > there are limes that just keep going into solution to high pH and
kill
> > > fish.. like
> > > > quick lime. So always, always try a handful of the lime material in
a
> > > gallon of tank
> > > > or pond water and test the pH over a couple days to make absolutely
> sure
> > > it is safe
> > > > to use.
> > > >
> > > > When baking soda is put into acidic water CO2 is liberated. Put a
LOT
> > of
> > > baking soda
> > > > into a very acidic water and a LOT of CO2 is generated which means
> that
> > > until that
> > > > CO2 has time to out gas and leave the water it is very toxic to the
> > fish.
> > > Fish are
> > > > no different than we are. We cannot have high levels of CO2 in the
> air
> > > even if there
> > > > is plenty of oxygen. Fish cannot have high levels of CO2 in the
water
> > > even if there
> > > > is oxygen. It is important to slowly add the baking soda WITH
plenty
> of
> > > aeration.
> > > > It is the aeration that moves the CO2 out of the water. Vigorous
> > aeration
> > > that
> > > > breaks the surface speeds the release of excess CO2.
> > > >
> > > > And the big point should be that it isnt just the increase in CO2,
it
> is
> > > the lack of
> > > > oxygen in a system that results in the accumulation of organic acids
> > that
> > > leads to
> > > > acidosis and death in fish. So this is why bare bottom tanks are so
> > good.
> > > There is
> > > > no where for rotting organics to accumulate and be broken down
> > > anaerobically. Well,
> > > > unless the filter is a closed system. One reason I like my hang
over
> > the
> > > back
> > > > Whispers is the filter is open to the air.
> > > >
> > > > You did right in raising the pH but with aeration you could have
> raised
> > it
> > > much
> > > > faster. Changing the pH from acid to pH 7.0 will not cause big
> > problems.
> > > They dont
> > > > undergo the same kind of shock as going from acid to alkaline, or
> > alkaline
> > > to acid.
> > > > Baking soda is a temporary fix. You need to get the hardness up, a
> > good
> > > buffering
> > > > system established. Ingrid
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Kodiak" > wrote:
> > > > >You also missed that i raised the PH slowly
> > > > >over a 24 hour period, first 12 hours with a 50%
> > > > >water, and another 12 hours with the soda.
> > > > >I guess you also missed that the soda made the fish
> > > > >much happier. If I took your advice, and that would be do
> > > > >nothing when your PH crashes, my fish would probably
> > > > >all be dead by now and i would be a happy camper NOT!...
> > > > >read this....
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>http://www.koivet.com/html/articles/articles_details.php?article_id=206&cat
> > > egory=12&name=Water%20Quality
> > > > >
> > > > >...Kodiak
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > > List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> > > > http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> > > > www.drsolo.com
> > > > Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > > Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> > > > compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> > > > endorsements or recommendations I make.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Tom La Bron]

Kodiak,

The reason I don't use RUGF is because it requires a larger layer of gravel
over the plates. Of course, now a days with the newer high tech plates
this may not be that big of a problem, but you have to remember the gravel
displaces the water and you are decreasing your water availability for
stocking in your tank. The other thing is that unless you have a very large
tank, in the 50 to 100gallon range, the powerheads have a tendency to create
a lot of water movement for the fancier type Goldfish depending on the
capacity of the powerheads. When using powerheads make sure the powerheads
are equal in gph.

As far as the Phillies are concerned, I just use a small bag made of nylon
netting and that was because I wanted something to be able to hold then on
the tank. The root ball just grows out of the bag and the leaves drape over
the side of the tank and grow around the tank. You can just put the a
length of the stem in the water and let it root on its own. If leaves get
into the water they eventually fall off so just strip any leaves from the
stem that you put in the water. I would not suggest putting it in the
Aquaclear filter box. The roots will grow into the sponge very quickly. I
have been fooling around overwintering a Taro for the outside ponds and I
ending up putting it in one of my Aquaclears and it is growing like mad but
it too starting growing in to the sponge and in to the impeller bow so I
will have to do something else with it this weekend to get it out of the
filter box.

As far as the filter media is concerned I squeeze them out in aquarium water
once a week.

HTH

Tom L.L.
--------------------------------------------------
"Kodiak" > wrote in message
.. .
> Hey Tom,
> Thanks for the UGF info. I don't have a UGF, but i
> was thinking of putting one in tandem with the AquaClear 300.
> Have you gotten better results with RUGF? Why is it better or worst?
> I was also thinking of putting in the Phillies, How do you put them
> in the tank? Are any of the leaves submersed? Do you just use a
> floating mesh basket and let the roots grow in them and the leaves
> hang outside of the tank? As for the Aquaclear 300 (33gallon tank with
> five 1.5"-2" Goldfish) how often would you clean/rinse filter media? (with
> tank
> water of course).
> ...Kodiak
>
>
> "Tom La Bron" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Kodiak,
> >
> > Many of us have used UGF's for years. Many people don't appreciate UGF's
> is
> > because of bad press and because they too are susceptible to
overstocking
> > and overfeeding of the Goldfish just like any filter, even powerfilters,
> but
> > the problems that occur to UGF's are not easily seen. In my opinion,
and
> > because of my extensive experience, I think the UGF is just a good
escape
> > goat for problems that occur. Hey, you have to put the blame somewhere,
> why
> > not the UGF. Case in point, is your situation, you are having a problem
> and
> > the first thing that Ingrid suggests is the UGF is the problem and if it
> is
> > not that it is the kind of sand you are using.
> >
> > At one time I had one UGF tank set up for 12 years, the latest one was
set
> > up for 7 years. Never had a problem with either. The problem most
people
> > have with UGF's is that they are not setup correctly. You should have 1
> 1/2
> > inches of gravel on top of the UGF plates to 2 inches. If you are using
a
> > Reverse UGF you need to have at least 2 inches to almost three inches of
> > gravel. The reason for the deeper levels with RUGF is due to the water
> > being pushed through the filters by high power powerheads. In any
event,
> > the secret is the depth of the sand. Just for my own piece of mind I
> still
> > usually run a small power filter in conjunction with the UGF.
> >
> > I have been around long enough to know there was a time when UGF were
the
> > high tech alternative to air driven outside filters. There was no such
> > thing as powerfilters with little motors in them. At one time I had one
> of
> > the professional air driven filters that was a plastic box that was
about
> 12
> > inches square and had two siphon tubes in with s-curves that were 1 inch
> in
> > diameter and a air driven return that pumped almost 500 gallons an hour.
> Of
> > course, you needed a Silent Giant air pump to run just one of these
> filters,
> > but it was pretty impressive.
> >
> > So much for the history lesson, the point is that UGF's have been around
> and
> > used for a long time and when you clean the gravel in a tank with an
UGF
> > you use the suction tube and use a pattern method or quadrant method for
> > cleaning the sand. Then the next time you vacuum you used a different
> > pattern and/or go to a different quadrant.
> >
> > Water changes are up to you. I use philodendrons in my tanks and tubs
> while
> > the fish are in the house and my nitrates are virtually zero. The thing
> you
> > have to remember is that if your tank is cycled the KH is going to be
> eaten
> > up by the biocycle so it is important that the KH stays up between 80
and
> > 120ppm. If you don't keep your KH up you pH will crash. It is just that
> > simple. For a quick and easy fix to your balance problem the Seachem
> > product that Bruce mentions works great, and in my case for long term
> > affects the oyster shell chicken grit works great. I would certainly
try
> a
> > feed store for the oyster chicken grit because it is a lot cheaper that
> way
> > that getting it from the pet shop.
> >
> > In any event, it is not the fault of your UGF it is poor water
management.
> > You have to remember you are the keeper of the environment, and you are
> > working with small amounts of water that if not taken care of will kick
> you
> > in the pants. It is just that simple Goldfish Husbandry.
> >
> > Good luck, and HTH.
> >
> > Tom L.L.
> > ---------------------------------------------
> > "Kodiak" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Hi Berney,
> > > You made me laugh with this post (voodoo reference) ...:)
> > > This stuff sure does seem like VooDoo to m sometimes.
> > > I've been watching this group and most people don't believe in the
> > > UGF. Are you having good results with a UGF? Didn't think
> > > it was ideal for Goldfish. Please comment on your setup.
> > >
> > > About your comment on not cleaning the entire gravel bed at the
> > > same time, are you saying that maybe I did overclean my gravel?
> > > My Nitrates use to hover around 40ppm, 50ppm worst case.
> > > After i devised this killer suction gravel siphoner system (I attach
> > > a 3/4" garden hose to a python and run it 20ft down into the basement,
> > > the suction is crazy) now my Nitrates are always below10ppm, is that
> > > a bad thing?
> > >
> > > Besides that it's true that my city water KH is way too low (25ppm)
> > > I really think my problem was as you say, lack of Alkhalinity.
> > >
> > > ...Kodiak
> > >
> > > "BErney1014" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > >sorry, but that colored and maybe coated gravel breaks down and
> becomes
> > > > >really toxic
> > > > >all on its own,
> > > >
> > > > Gravel will raise hardness if it's the "wrong" kind. Pour some acid
on
> > the
> > > > gravel, does it fizz? Kodiak's problem was lack of alkalinity.
> > > >
> > > > you
> > > > >are not over
> > > > >cleaning your gravel, it has gone toxic. get it out, if you must
use
> > > plain
> > > > >old pea
> > > > >gravel.
> > > >
> > > > Kodiak, common practice is NOT to clean the entire bed at one time.
If
> > you
> > > are
> > > > serious, install a UGF.
> > > >
> > > > >yes, the black crud could be a toxic type of algae. bleach the
lid,
> > > rinse
> > > > >well of
> > > > >course.
> > > >
> > > > She's making it up.
> > > >
> > > > Good luck Kodiak, too bad she's feeding you voodoo.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Kodiak]

So this stuff really dissolves?
I was just thinking today that i overpack my
Aquaclear filters with media. I see alot of the water
flow past the top bypass notch. I think that means
I should pack my media more loosely?
....Kodiak

"Tom La Bron" > wrote in message
...
> Kodiak,
>
> It is a good alternative. Just pack it loose so the water will flow
through
> it. You really don't need a lot unless you water is pretty acidic. In my
> ponds I have a tray of the oyster shells in the filter and every spring I
> put about three quarters of an inch in it. One year when we had incessant
> rains when I put more shells in the next Spring there was only about 3/8
of
> an inch left in the tray. You don't necessarily see the decrease but it
> does occur.
>
> Tom L.L.
> -------------------------------------
> "Kodiak" > wrote in message
> .. .
> > Hey Tom,
> > I just bought some crushed Coral and was about to do
> > the same thing. (put it in a baggy and jam it into my
> > Aquaclear 500). You think it will be as good as the Oyster shells?
> > ...Kodiak
> >
> > "Tom La Bron" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Kodiak,
> > >
> > > You may not be able to find Dolomite limestone, it is not carried just
> any
> > > where any more. You used to able to buy it all the time for it was
used
> > as
> > > a supplement for cattle and sheep, but about the only place you can
find
> > it
> > > now are places where there is a lot of aquaculture facilities. If you
> > can't
> > > find it you may have to try oyster shells. I you have a feed store
near
> > you
> > > can get oyster shell chicken grit, or if that is not available you can
> > some
> > > time go to the bird area of your local pet store and look for certain
> bird
> > > grits. Wash it very good, for sometimes it is pretty dusty, and then
> put
> > in
> > > a bag made of nylon net from the yard good area of a sewing store or
> > tulle.
> > > Put the bag either in the discharge area of the filter or in the jump
> flow
> > > of bubbles from you airstone.
> > >
> > > Oyster shells keep my ponds between 80 and 129ppm of KH.
> > >
> > > HTH
> > >
> > > Tom L.L.
> > > -----------------------------------
> > >
> > > "Kodiak" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > Thanks for all the info Ingrid, I have a descent airstone and big
> > > > Aquaclear300
> > > > for a tank that small (33gal) but I didn't want to chance it and get
> too
> > > > much CO2
> > > > in there so I raised it slowly. I will definitely look into the
> > dolomitic
> > > > limestone as
> > > > you mentioned in the other post.
> > > > ...Kodiak
> > > >
> > > > > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > > unfortunately, the source you give is confused.
> > > > > first of all, it doesnt take a lot of hydrogen ions to have the pH
> > drop.
> > > > In
> > > > > distilled water there is no "buffer" so just a slight excess of H+
> > ions
> > > > sends pH
> > > > > spiraling downward. When there is a buffer present, the excess H+
> > > > hydrogen is
> > > > > neutralized. The purpose of a buffer is to "resist" changes in
the
> > pH.
> > > > > And rise in pH is due to an excess of OH- or hydroxide ions.
Again,
> > in
> > > > distilled
> > > > > water it doesnt take much OH to make the pH climb. And the buffer
> > > resist
> > > > the change
> > > > > in pH by neutralizing the excess OH-.
> > > > > http://members.aol.com/BearFlag45/Biology1A/Reviews/ph.html
> > > > >
> > > > > The major source of CO2 in water is from the air. Rotting
> vegetation
> > > will
> > > > put CO2
> > > > > into the water because it is one end product of bacterial action.
A
> > > plant
> > > > that is
> > > > > submerged will use up CO2 during the day and put out oxygen. At
> night
> > it
> > > > uses up
> > > > > oxygen and puts out some CO2, but much less than it is using
unless
> > the
> > > > plant is dead
> > > > > and decaying. Plants that only have their roots in the water will
> not
> > > > even put that
> > > > > much CO2 into the water. CO2 cannot dissolve endlessly in water.
At
> > > > around pH 6.4 no
> > > > > more net CO2 will dissolve in water it just goes in as a gas to a
> > > limited
> > > > extent.
> > > > > that is, it enters a steady state with CO2 going into solution and
> > > coming
> > > > out of
> > > > > solution at the same rate. Fish can do fine at pH 6.4.
> > > > >
> > > > > What pushes the pH down below around pH 6.4 is the presence of
> organic
> > > > acids. Dead
> > > > > plant matter and feces that are undergoing anaerobic digestion by
> > > bacteria
> > > > will
> > > > > result in partially digested organic breakdown products. These
are
> > > acidic
> > > > and can
> > > > > continue to build up as long as there are bacteria that can live
at
> > > those
> > > > acid
> > > > > conditions. When there is an abundance of oxygen where bacteria
are
> > > > "working" they
> > > > > will break organic matter down to CO2 and H2O plus other non-toxic
> > > > compound.
> > > > >
> > > > > Organic dolomitic limestone is a good source of buffer having both
> > > calcium
> > > > and
> > > > > magnesium. Oyster shells have almost no magnesium
> > > > > http://www.eggcartons.com/item653.htm which is one reason they
are
> > used
> > > > as grit for
> > > > > chickens --- magnesium evidently inhibits egg laying. I put the
> > ground
> > > up
> > > > organic
> > > > > limestone loose in my filter where it is dissolved as needed. Not
> > > > everything that is
> > > > > lime is safe. There are limes that are unstable and cause pH to
> swing
> > > up
> > > > and down,
> > > > > there are limes that just keep going into solution to high pH and
> kill
> > > > fish.. like
> > > > > quick lime. So always, always try a handful of the lime material
in
> a
> > > > gallon of tank
> > > > > or pond water and test the pH over a couple days to make
absolutely
> > sure
> > > > it is safe
> > > > > to use.
> > > > >
> > > > > When baking soda is put into acidic water CO2 is liberated. Put a
> LOT
> > > of
> > > > baking soda
> > > > > into a very acidic water and a LOT of CO2 is generated which means
> > that
> > > > until that
> > > > > CO2 has time to out gas and leave the water it is very toxic to
the
> > > fish.
> > > > Fish are
> > > > > no different than we are. We cannot have high levels of CO2 in
the
> > air
> > > > even if there
> > > > > is plenty of oxygen. Fish cannot have high levels of CO2 in the
> water
> > > > even if there
> > > > > is oxygen. It is important to slowly add the baking soda WITH
> plenty
> > of
> > > > aeration.
> > > > > It is the aeration that moves the CO2 out of the water. Vigorous
> > > aeration
> > > > that
> > > > > breaks the surface speeds the release of excess CO2.
> > > > >
> > > > > And the big point should be that it isnt just the increase in CO2,
> it
> > is
> > > > the lack of
> > > > > oxygen in a system that results in the accumulation of organic
acids
> > > that
> > > > leads to
> > > > > acidosis and death in fish. So this is why bare bottom tanks are
so
> > > good.
> > > > There is
> > > > > no where for rotting organics to accumulate and be broken down
> > > > anaerobically. Well,
> > > > > unless the filter is a closed system. One reason I like my hang
> over
> > > the
> > > > back
> > > > > Whispers is the filter is open to the air.
> > > > >
> > > > > You did right in raising the pH but with aeration you could have
> > raised
> > > it
> > > > much
> > > > > faster. Changing the pH from acid to pH 7.0 will not cause big
> > > problems.
> > > > They dont
> > > > > undergo the same kind of shock as going from acid to alkaline, or
> > > alkaline
> > > > to acid.
> > > > > Baking soda is a temporary fix. You need to get the hardness up,
a
> > > good
> > > > buffering
> > > > > system established. Ingrid
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Kodiak" > wrote:
> > > > > >You also missed that i raised the PH slowly
> > > > > >over a 24 hour period, first 12 hours with a 50%
> > > > > >water, and another 12 hours with the soda.
> > > > > >I guess you also missed that the soda made the fish
> > > > > >much happier. If I took your advice, and that would be do
> > > > > >nothing when your PH crashes, my fish would probably
> > > > > >all be dead by now and i would be a happy camper NOT!...
> > > > > >read this....
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>http://www.koivet.com/html/articles/articles_details.php?article_id=206&cat
> > > > egory=12&name=Water%20Quality
> > > > > >
> > > > > >...Kodiak
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > > > List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
> > > > > http://puregold.aquaria.net/
> > > > > www.drsolo.com
> > > > > Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
> > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > > > Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
> > > > > compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
> > > > > endorsements or recommendations I make.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Kodiak]

Geez, you rinse your sponge once a week?
Is that really necessary? I thought that too
clean is no good? I guess I'm waiting too
long if I rinse once a month?

Thanks for the tips on the Phillies, i will try.
....Kodiak

"Tom La Bron" > wrote in message
...
> Kodiak,
>
> The reason I don't use RUGF is because it requires a larger layer of
gravel
> over the plates. Of course, now a days with the newer high tech plates
> this may not be that big of a problem, but you have to remember the gravel
> displaces the water and you are decreasing your water availability for
> stocking in your tank. The other thing is that unless you have a very
large
> tank, in the 50 to 100gallon range, the powerheads have a tendency to
create
> a lot of water movement for the fancier type Goldfish depending on the
> capacity of the powerheads. When using powerheads make sure the
powerheads
> are equal in gph.
>
> As far as the Phillies are concerned, I just use a small bag made of nylon
> netting and that was because I wanted something to be able to hold then on
> the tank. The root ball just grows out of the bag and the leaves drape
over
> the side of the tank and grow around the tank. You can just put the a
> length of the stem in the water and let it root on its own. If leaves get
> into the water they eventually fall off so just strip any leaves from the
> stem that you put in the water. I would not suggest putting it in the
> Aquaclear filter box. The roots will grow into the sponge very quickly.
I
> have been fooling around overwintering a Taro for the outside ponds and I
> ending up putting it in one of my Aquaclears and it is growing like mad
but
> it too starting growing in to the sponge and in to the impeller bow so I
> will have to do something else with it this weekend to get it out of the
> filter box.
>
> As far as the filter media is concerned I squeeze them out in aquarium
water
> once a week.
>
> HTH
>
> Tom L.L.
> --------------------------------------------------
> "Kodiak" > wrote in message
> .. .
> > Hey Tom,
> > Thanks for the UGF info. I don't have a UGF, but i
> > was thinking of putting one in tandem with the AquaClear 300.
> > Have you gotten better results with RUGF? Why is it better or worst?
> > I was also thinking of putting in the Phillies, How do you put them
> > in the tank? Are any of the leaves submersed? Do you just use a
> > floating mesh basket and let the roots grow in them and the leaves
> > hang outside of the tank? As for the Aquaclear 300 (33gallon tank with
> > five 1.5"-2" Goldfish) how often would you clean/rinse filter media?
(with
> > tank
> > water of course).
> > ...Kodiak
> >
> >
> > "Tom La Bron" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Kodiak,
> > >
> > > Many of us have used UGF's for years. Many people don't appreciate
UGF's
> > is
> > > because of bad press and because they too are susceptible to
> overstocking
> > > and overfeeding of the Goldfish just like any filter, even
powerfilters,
> > but
> > > the problems that occur to UGF's are not easily seen. In my opinion,
> and
> > > because of my extensive experience, I think the UGF is just a good
> escape
> > > goat for problems that occur. Hey, you have to put the blame
somewhere,
> > why
> > > not the UGF. Case in point, is your situation, you are having a
problem
> > and
> > > the first thing that Ingrid suggests is the UGF is the problem and if
it
> > is
> > > not that it is the kind of sand you are using.
> > >
> > > At one time I had one UGF tank set up for 12 years, the latest one was
> set
> > > up for 7 years. Never had a problem with either. The problem most
> people
> > > have with UGF's is that they are not setup correctly. You should have
1
> > 1/2
> > > inches of gravel on top of the UGF plates to 2 inches. If you are
using
> a
> > > Reverse UGF you need to have at least 2 inches to almost three inches
of
> > > gravel. The reason for the deeper levels with RUGF is due to the
water
> > > being pushed through the filters by high power powerheads. In any
> event,
> > > the secret is the depth of the sand. Just for my own piece of mind I
> > still
> > > usually run a small power filter in conjunction with the UGF.
> > >
> > > I have been around long enough to know there was a time when UGF were
> the
> > > high tech alternative to air driven outside filters. There was no
such
> > > thing as powerfilters with little motors in them. At one time I had
one
> > of
> > > the professional air driven filters that was a plastic box that was
> about
> > 12
> > > inches square and had two siphon tubes in with s-curves that were 1
inch
> > in
> > > diameter and a air driven return that pumped almost 500 gallons an
hour.
> > Of
> > > course, you needed a Silent Giant air pump to run just one of these
> > filters,
> > > but it was pretty impressive.
> > >
> > > So much for the history lesson, the point is that UGF's have been
around
> > and
> > > used for a long time and when you clean the gravel in a tank with an
> UGF
> > > you use the suction tube and use a pattern method or quadrant method
for
> > > cleaning the sand. Then the next time you vacuum you used a different
> > > pattern and/or go to a different quadrant.
> > >
> > > Water changes are up to you. I use philodendrons in my tanks and tubs
> > while
> > > the fish are in the house and my nitrates are virtually zero. The
thing
> > you
> > > have to remember is that if your tank is cycled the KH is going to be
> > eaten
> > > up by the biocycle so it is important that the KH stays up between 80
> and
> > > 120ppm. If you don't keep your KH up you pH will crash. It is just
that
> > > simple. For a quick and easy fix to your balance problem the Seachem
> > > product that Bruce mentions works great, and in my case for long term
> > > affects the oyster shell chicken grit works great. I would certainly
> try
> > a
> > > feed store for the oyster chicken grit because it is a lot cheaper
that
> > way
> > > that getting it from the pet shop.
> > >
> > > In any event, it is not the fault of your UGF it is poor water
> management.
> > > You have to remember you are the keeper of the environment, and you
are
> > > working with small amounts of water that if not taken care of will
kick
> > you
> > > in the pants. It is just that simple Goldfish Husbandry.
> > >
> > > Good luck, and HTH.
> > >
> > > Tom L.L.
> > > ---------------------------------------------
> > > "Kodiak" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > Hi Berney,
> > > > You made me laugh with this post (voodoo reference) ...:)
> > > > This stuff sure does seem like VooDoo to m sometimes.
> > > > I've been watching this group and most people don't believe in the
> > > > UGF. Are you having good results with a UGF? Didn't think
> > > > it was ideal for Goldfish. Please comment on your setup.
> > > >
> > > > About your comment on not cleaning the entire gravel bed at the
> > > > same time, are you saying that maybe I did overclean my gravel?
> > > > My Nitrates use to hover around 40ppm, 50ppm worst case.
> > > > After i devised this killer suction gravel siphoner system (I attach
> > > > a 3/4" garden hose to a python and run it 20ft down into the
basement,
> > > > the suction is crazy) now my Nitrates are always below10ppm, is that
> > > > a bad thing?
> > > >
> > > > Besides that it's true that my city water KH is way too low (25ppm)
> > > > I really think my problem was as you say, lack of Alkhalinity.
> > > >
> > > > ...Kodiak
> > > >
> > > > "BErney1014" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > >
> > > > > >sorry, but that colored and maybe coated gravel breaks down and
> > becomes
> > > > > >really toxic
> > > > > >all on its own,
> > > > >
> > > > > Gravel will raise hardness if it's the "wrong" kind. Pour some
acid
> on
> > > the
> > > > > gravel, does it fizz? Kodiak's problem was lack of alkalinity.
> > > > >
> > > > > you
> > > > > >are not over
> > > > > >cleaning your gravel, it has gone toxic. get it out, if you must
> use
> > > > plain
> > > > > >old pea
> > > > > >gravel.
> > > > >
> > > > > Kodiak, common practice is NOT to clean the entire bed at one
time.
> If
> > > you
> > > > are
> > > > > serious, install a UGF.
> > > > >
> > > > > >yes, the black crud could be a toxic type of algae. bleach the
> lid,
> > > > rinse
> > > > > >well of
> > > > > >course.
> > > > >
> > > > > She's making it up.
> > > > >
> > > > > Good luck Kodiak, too bad she's feeding you voodoo.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>