Need Help With a New Aquarium

[Dan Ozment]

I need help getting an aquarium going. This is our first aquarium,
and we've been struggling with it for a couple of months at least.
The problem started when the kids called from a visit to the
grandparents to tell us that grand dad would buy them each a gold fish
if we would allow it. We said yes, and went out to buy an aquarium.
I know now that the aquarium needs to be set up for some time before
putting the fish in, and I've heard suggestions to put other fish in
for a while to let the tank cycle before we put the "keepers" in.
Unfortunately, the gold fish did not do well lying on the kitchen
counter while we waited for that to happen (we didn't really do this).

Our first mistake was to let them buy the fish before we were
prepared. Now, we're trying to figure out how to correct the
situation. We have accepted the fact that the fish may dye before
this is over.

We treated the water for chlorine, and put them in their new home.
Here's what we have: 20 gallon tank, TopFin 20 filter, air pump
with air stone, two gold fish (one about 3 inches and one about 2
inches). The pH stays at about 7.8, ammonia seems stuck at 4 ppm,
nitrite 0. We have a heater in the tank, but it's turned off and the
temp stays at around 70. For the first month I kept the ammonia low
using tablets. We decided we were stopping the cycle by doing that,
so I've let it go for about a month without doing anything. The only
thing I do is add about 20ml of bacteria starter once a week.

We think we were feeding them too much at first, and we have cut way
back. The last couple of days the fish have been kind of slow and
sometimes kind of sit on the bottom or hide under a rock. They seem
stressed. The tank became pretty much overrun with algae a few weeks
back. We had to go out of town for about four days, and we were told
that the fish would be ok to go that long between feedings. When we
returned home the water was crystal clear and the fish seemed fine.
However, the algae is starting to grow again.

We tried moving the fish out of the high-ammonia aquarium into a
borrowed aquarium (with a 50-50 mix of water from their aquarium and
freshly treated water), but they freaked out. - darting all over the
tank and slamming into the tank walls. I moved them back after about
a day.

Questions:
1) Am I stopping the cycle by bringing the ammonia down or should I
keep adding chemicals to do that?
2) Should I be doing water changes while I'm waiting for the ammonia
to peak, or would that interrupt the cycle?
3) Is there anything else I can do to get through the ammonia peak?
4) What should I do about the algae?
5) Why didn't grand dad buy them a pet rock?

I have seen questions similar to this situation on forums before, but
I've never found suggestions that seem to help our situation. I would
appreciate any assistance.

Thanks,
Dan

[Donald K]

Dan Ozment wrote:

> Questions:
> 1) Am I stopping the cycle by bringing the ammonia down or should I
> keep adding chemicals to do that?
> 2) Should I be doing water changes while I'm waiting for the ammonia
> to peak, or would that interrupt the cycle?
> 3) Is there anything else I can do to get through the ammonia peak?
> 4) What should I do about the algae?
> 5) Why didn't grand dad buy them a pet rock?
>
> I have seen questions similar to this situation on forums before, but
> I've never found suggestions that seem to help our situation. I would
> appreciate any assistance.

OK,
Here is a good place to start...
http://fins.actwin.com/mirror/begin.html

Then move onto the following link for goldfish specifics...
http://puregold.aquaria.net/pg/care/care1.htm#essentials

Note that you are about right for equipment.

Keeping the ammonia down may slow the overall cycle time, but is really
necessary for the health of your fish. Since you seem to have a test
kit, go ahead and do 50% water changes (with dechlorinated, temperature
matched water) until the ammonia is at the first, non-zero reading of
your test kit. Do additional water changes to keep it there.

Now... Here's a mystery... algae doesn't normally appear in a non-cycled
tank... Can you get the local fish store (LFS) to measure your nitrAtes
(as opposed to nitrItes) and get back to us? If you're measuring
non-zero nitrates, then the tank IS cycled and you've got some problem
that is generating too much ammonia at the front end...

Overfeeding, old food rotting, etc...

Ahhh... What sort of ammonia test kit are you using and what sort of
dechlorinator chemical are you using? Some dechlorinators will give a
false positive reading on some ammonia test kits...

As for chemicals... I'm a firm believer in nothing but dechlorinator and
occasionally some aquarium salt. If the ammonia remains a problem you
can handle it in the short term with "AmQuel" which neutralizes the
toxic ammonia, but leaves it available for the cycle.

As for algae? It is actually helping. Keep it scraped off the front
(and/or side) viewing surface but leave it on the bottom/back where it
isn't bothering anybody...

Pet rocks? Sigh... That's a different newsgroup. I had some once, but
they died.

-Donald
--
"A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy
enough people to make it worth the effort." -Herm Albright

[Dan Ozment]

On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 09:24:09 -0800, Donald K
> wrote:

>Dan Ozment wrote:
>
>> Questions:
>> 1) Am I stopping the cycle by bringing the ammonia down or should I
>> keep adding chemicals to do that?
>> 2) Should I be doing water changes while I'm waiting for the ammonia
>> to peak, or would that interrupt the cycle?
>> 3) Is there anything else I can do to get through the ammonia peak?
>> 4) What should I do about the algae?
>> 5) Why didn't grand dad buy them a pet rock?
>>
>Here is a good place to start...
>http://fins.actwin.com/mirror/begin.html

I read this one this morning. Helpful information. I think I know
how to do it right, now. The problem is figuring out how to get from
where I am (starting out wrong) to where I need to be.

>Now... Here's a mystery... algae doesn't normally appear in a non-cycled
>tank... Can you get the local fish store (LFS) to measure your nitrAtes
>(as opposed to nitrItes) and get back to us? If you're measuring
>non-zero nitrates, then the tank IS cycled and you've got some problem
>that is generating too much ammonia at the front end...

Interesting. That would be great. I'm off to the pet store!


>Ahhh... What sort of ammonia test kit are you using and what sort of
>dechlorinator chemical are you using? Some dechlorinators will give a
>false positive reading on some ammonia test kits...

I initially used Start Right Tank Buddies to to the dechlorination,
and I have used Ammonia Clear Tank Buddies to kill the ammonia. On
subsequent water changes I've gone to Aqua Plus Tap Water Conditioner.
I didn't mention before that I have also added Stress Coat. The test
kit looks like your average run of the mill generic test kit from
Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. There are two solutions that I use for the
ammonia kit. Eight drops of each in a tube of water.
>
>As for chemicals... I'm a firm believer in nothing but dechlorinator and
>occasionally some aquarium salt.

I have heard recommendations both for and against adding salt. I have
not added salt to the tank. Should I?

>
>Pet rocks? Sigh... That's a different newsgroup. I had some once, but
>they died.

Our first adventure with pets was the tad poles that our youngest
brought home from preschool. From about 8 tad poles we actually saw
2 living, breathing frogs. That was cool. Unfortuantly, they died
after a couple of months, and we promised the same fate for the
preschool teacher if she brought more tadpoles to school! If these
fish don't survive granddad had better watch his back!

Thanks for the quick advice.

Dan

[MartinOsirus]

>1) Am I stopping the cycle by bringing the ammonia down or should I
>keep adding chemicals to do that

Control excessive ammonia with water changes not chemicals. Some ammonia is
necessary to keep the cycle going. Do water changes based on how the fish are
doing i.e. if they appear toxic (excessive yawning; gasping at surface; sitting
in corner). Also can use ammonia test

>2) Should I be doing water changes while I'm waiting for the ammonia
>to peak, or would that interrupt the cycle?
Small partial water changes may prolong the cycle a bit - but are necessary to
control ammonia if the fish appear toxic
>3) Is there anything else I can do to get through the ammonia peak?

the cycle has to complete on its own
>4) What should I do about the algae?

nothing at the moment. Some algae can help with the filtration.
For goldfish - it is best to:
1. Use overfiltration ( excess filtering)
2. No gravel. Barebottom tank
3. Lots of extra aeration

>5) Why didn't grand dad buy them a pet rock?
You will have to ask him !
Good Luck!

[Mel]

While you have high ammonia I'd cut the feeding back to just a pinch every
other day. They wont starve and it will limit the waste and help lower the
ammonia reading. I'd also be doing a 20-30% water change daily to make
things easier for the fish. You're aiming to have 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite with
nitrates over 0 but preferably under 20. Once you've reaching this you can
slowly decrease the water changes to 1 or 2 per week as needed, and slowly
increase the food again to twice a day feedings. As long as you do the daily
partial changes then you shouldn't need to add Amquel or similar products.
Mel.

"MartinOsirus" > wrote in message
...
> >1) Am I stopping the cycle by bringing the ammonia down or should I
> >keep adding chemicals to do that
>
> Control excessive ammonia with water changes not chemicals. Some ammonia
is
> necessary to keep the cycle going. Do water changes based on how the fish
are
> doing i.e. if they appear toxic (excessive yawning; gasping at surface;
sitting
> in corner). Also can use ammonia test
>
> >2) Should I be doing water changes while I'm waiting for the ammonia
> >to peak, or would that interrupt the cycle?
> Small partial water changes may prolong the cycle a bit - but are
necessary to
> control ammonia if the fish appear toxic
> >3) Is there anything else I can do to get through the ammonia peak?
>
> the cycle has to complete on its own
> >4) What should I do about the algae?
>
> nothing at the moment. Some algae can help with the filtration.
> For goldfish - it is best to:
> 1. Use overfiltration ( excess filtering)
> 2. No gravel. Barebottom tank
> 3. Lots of extra aeration
>
> >5) Why didn't grand dad buy them a pet rock?
> You will have to ask him !
> Good Luck!
>
>

[Dan Ozment]

On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 18:18:19 GMT, Dan Ozment >
wrote:

>On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 09:24:09 -0800, Donald K
> wrote:
>
>
>>Now... Here's a mystery... algae doesn't normally appear in a non-cycled
>>tank... Can you get the local fish store (LFS) to measure your nitrAtes
>>(as opposed to nitrItes) and get back to us? If you're measuring
>>non-zero nitrates, then the tank IS cycled and you've got some problem
>>that is generating too much ammonia at the front end...

LFS test my water. Nitrates and nitrites zero. pH 7.8. Ammonia
6.something. The guy at PetSmart recommended that I "drain all of
the water out of the tank. Just let the fish flop around on the
bottom for a few minutes. Then, refill the tank with clean water."
That doesn't sound too "smart" to me. I think I'm going to opt for
some of the advice I've heard here today. I did a 25% water change
this afternoon. I plan to do another 25% change tomorrow and ever day
for a few days until the ammonia is down.

The guy at PetSmart said the pH is too high, and that it could be
killing the bacteria that should be controlling the ammonia. Does
that make sense>?. What should it the pH be for GF? Will the water
changes bring it down, or should I use chemicals?

The amazing thing is the fish seem to be doing fine in this water with
high ammonia. They seem to follow me around when I'm in the room.
They go to the end of the tank closest to me and stay at the glass.
Kind of reminds me of puppies wagging their tails.

Thanks, all, for the quick responses.

Dan

[Donald K]

Dan Ozment wrote:

> LFS test my water. Nitrates and nitrites zero. pH 7.8. Ammonia
> 6.something. The guy at PetSmart recommended that I "drain all of
> the water out of the tank. Just let the fish flop around on the
> bottom for a few minutes. Then, refill the tank with clean water."
> That doesn't sound too "smart" to me.

Let me know the location / name of the LFS employee. I'll put him in a
tank of CO2 and let him "flop around on the bottom for a few minutes."
What a schmuck.

> The guy at PetSmart said the pH is too high, and that it could be
> killing the bacteria that should be controlling the ammonia. Does
> that make sense>?.

No it doesn't, a pH of 7.8 is in a perfectly reasonable range.

Read here, about 2/3rds of the way down for pH info:

http://www.bioconlabs.com/nitribactfacts.html

> What should it the pH be for GF? Will the water
> changes bring it down, or should I use chemicals?

Don't worry about it. The fish will cope with 7.8. Just keep it stable
and don't jerk it around with additional chemicals.

> The amazing thing is the fish seem to be doing fine in this water with
> high ammonia. They seem to follow me around when I'm in the room.
> They go to the end of the tank closest to me and stay at the glass.
> Kind of reminds me of puppies wagging their tails.

Yup, just like a bunch of friendly puppies.

Find a new LFS.

-D
--
"A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy
enough people to make it worth the effort." -Herm Albright

[Dan Ozment]

thanks for all of the advice, Donald. I thought I would post a
quick update. I have done 25% water changes once a day for th past
three days. The ammonia is down to about 1 ppm. My kit measures
down to .25 ppm, so I'm going to keep going until it hits about there.

I'm also feeding a little every other day. The fish seem to be happy.

The algae seems to be getting worse, but based on other advice I've
gotten here, I think I'm not going to worry about it for now.

Here's another question: one of the schmucks at my FLFS (former local
fish store) said that leaving the light on too much of the time could
be causing the algae to grow. I also think I saw today that some kind
of light can slow the growth of the nitrifying bacteria. I have a
single fluorescent tube on the tank, and we've been leaving it on for
12+ hours a day. Could that be contributing to my problems?

Thanks, again, for the advice.

Dan



On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 22:13:39 -0800, Donald K
> wrote:

>Dan Ozment wrote:
>
>> LFS test my water. Nitrates and nitrites zero. pH 7.8. Ammonia
>> 6.something. The guy at PetSmart recommended that I "drain all of
>> the water out of the tank. Just let the fish flop around on the
>> bottom for a few minutes. Then, refill the tank with clean water."
>> That doesn't sound too "smart" to me.
>
>Let me know the location / name of the LFS employee. I'll put him in a
>tank of CO2 and let him "flop around on the bottom for a few minutes."
>What a schmuck.
>
>> The guy at PetSmart said the pH is too high, and that it could be
>> killing the bacteria that should be controlling the ammonia. Does
>> that make sense>?.
>
>No it doesn't, a pH of 7.8 is in a perfectly reasonable range.
>
>Read here, about 2/3rds of the way down for pH info:
>
>http://www.bioconlabs.com/nitribactfacts.html
>
>> What should it the pH be for GF? Will the water
>> changes bring it down, or should I use chemicals?
>
>Don't worry about it. The fish will cope with 7.8. Just keep it stable
>and don't jerk it around with additional chemicals.
>
>> The amazing thing is the fish seem to be doing fine in this water with
>> high ammonia. They seem to follow me around when I'm in the room.
>> They go to the end of the tank closest to me and stay at the glass.
>> Kind of reminds me of puppies wagging their tails.
>
>Yup, just like a bunch of friendly puppies.
>
>Find a new LFS.
>
>-D

[Dan Ozment]

Thanks for the advice, Martin and Mel. With you guys and Donald
around, these fish just might stand a chance!

Dan


On Sat, 6 Mar 2004 19:09:40 -0000, "Mel" > wrote:
>
>"MartinOsirus" > wrote in message
...