gasping GF

[Bill Schowengerdt]

Hi,

My wife set up the ten gal tank with 3" gravel. Overfeeding soon caused
cloudy water so I changed all the water and removed all gravel.

Held fish (2 GF,, an oscar (Yes, all get along with each other), cory,
and shag catfish (cannot remember proper name) in a 1/2 gal. tank with
old water. (GF, oscar, and shag all about 3"... cory about 2")

Refilled ten and used conditioner. Matched temp and moved fish.

Shag and oscar quickly in trouble so I moved them back to holding tank.
Soom, cory went from looking fine to upside down and curled. So.. I put
him in the holding tank and agitted him and he soon fully recovered.

For the entire time the GF were back in ten gal tank, they were "gasping"
but otherwise seemed OK (except would not feed)

After a while, I moved the shag back. he appeared fine, but after an
hour, I stopped watching for 10 minutes, and then found him dead.

So... That left me with 2 GF and cory in tank, and oscar in holding

Several hours later, one GF was in trouble. I moved him back to holding
and he lasted 5 hours.

Cory still fine, other GF fine except gasping.

About ten hours later, I decided to change the water again, and did so.
this time, I boiled the water, let cool, conditioned and transfer fish.

Now... 12 hours later.....All seems well with remaining fish except they
won't feed.

My quwstions.... Any suggestions regarding what went wrong?What did the
gasping mean? Why still not feeding?

BTW.. I sustained so many fish in 1/2 gal tank by bubbleing pure oxygen.

TIA
--
Bill

Please God, delete G Bush. NOW.

[Geezer From Freezer]

Bill,

You are massively overstocked. 10 gals per goldies. Do a 50% water change now.

[Kodiak]

One 3" OSCAR by itself is way too big for your 10gallon.
You are gonna need at very minimum a 70 gallon tank for
all those fish you mention. In a healthy environment your
OSCAR will double in size to 6", and by then even if he eats all those
fish your 70gallon will not be enough when he gets to 8".
....Kodiak

"Bill Schowengerdt" > wrote in message
...
> Hi,
>
> My wife set up the ten gal tank with 3" gravel. Overfeeding soon caused
> cloudy water so I changed all the water and removed all gravel.
>
> Held fish (2 GF,, an oscar (Yes, all get along with each other), cory,
> and shag catfish (cannot remember proper name) in a 1/2 gal. tank with
> old water. (GF, oscar, and shag all about 3"... cory about 2")
>
> Refilled ten and used conditioner. Matched temp and moved fish.
>
> Shag and oscar quickly in trouble so I moved them back to holding tank.
> Soom, cory went from looking fine to upside down and curled. So.. I put
> him in the holding tank and agitted him and he soon fully recovered.
>
> For the entire time the GF were back in ten gal tank, they were "gasping"
> but otherwise seemed OK (except would not feed)
>
> After a while, I moved the shag back. he appeared fine, but after an
> hour, I stopped watching for 10 minutes, and then found him dead.
>
> So... That left me with 2 GF and cory in tank, and oscar in holding
>
> Several hours later, one GF was in trouble. I moved him back to holding
> and he lasted 5 hours.
>
> Cory still fine, other GF fine except gasping.
>
> About ten hours later, I decided to change the water again, and did so.
> this time, I boiled the water, let cool, conditioned and transfer fish.
>
> Now... 12 hours later.....All seems well with remaining fish except they
> won't feed.
>
> My quwstions.... Any suggestions regarding what went wrong?What did the
> gasping mean? Why still not feeding?
>
> BTW.. I sustained so many fish in 1/2 gal tank by bubbleing pure oxygen.
>
> TIA
> --
> Bill
>
> Please God, delete G Bush. NOW.

[E.Otter]

What those other guys said (too small tank, too many fish, need to test
Ammonia, Nitrites, Nitrates, etc...). Also, boiled water isn't good for any
fish because the water will have significantly less oxygen than unboiled
water. Oxygen dissolves in colder water better than warmer. The warmer the
water, the more oxygen that will dissapate from the water into the air. So,
boiled water probably has almost zero oxygen. Fish still need O2 to breath
like you and I but they get it out of the water instead of the air. Unless
you have a tank setup that does a great job of putting o2 back into the
water (air-stone, filter that circulates and creates a lot of surface
activity) your fish will be in trouble.

E.Otter

[dz]

When the boiled water cooled down to room temperature, oxygen re-dissolved
into the water. Also, by boiling the water, most bugs will be killed and
give you a bug-free water.

But the size of the tank is the problem.

I cant imagine anyone will mix all those fish together in a 10 gal tank.


"E.Otter" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> What those other guys said (too small tank, too many fish, need to test
> Ammonia, Nitrites, Nitrates, etc...). Also, boiled water isn't good for
any
> fish because the water will have significantly less oxygen than unboiled
> water. Oxygen dissolves in colder water better than warmer. The warmer
the
> water, the more oxygen that will dissapate from the water into the air.
So,
> boiled water probably has almost zero oxygen. Fish still need O2 to
breath
> like you and I but they get it out of the water instead of the air.
Unless
> you have a tank setup that does a great job of putting o2 back into the
> water (air-stone, filter that circulates and creates a lot of surface
> activity) your fish will be in trouble.
>
> E.Otter
>
>

[Bill Schowengerdt]

On Mon, 8 Mar 2004 19:57:39 -0500, In the heat of the moment, "Kodiak"
> posted:
..
>One 3" OSCAR by itself is way too big for your 10gallon.
>You are gonna need at very minimum a 70 gallon tank for
>all those fish you mention. In a healthy environment your
>OSCAR will double in size to 6", and by then even if he eats all those
>fish your 70gallon will not be enough when he gets to 8".
>...Kodiak

Won't a small tank limit oscar groth like it does with GF?

--
Bill

Please God, delete G Bush. NOW.

[Bill Schowengerdt]

On Tue, 09 Mar 2004 03:10:05 GMT, In the heat of the moment, "E.Otter"
> posted:
..
>What those other guys said (too small tank, too many fish, need to test
>Ammonia, Nitrites, Nitrates, etc...). Also, boiled water isn't good for any
>fish because the water will have significantly less oxygen than unboiled
>water. Oxygen dissolves in colder water better than warmer. The warmer the
>water, the more oxygen that will dissapate from the water into the air. So,
>boiled water probably has almost zero oxygen. Fish still need O2 to breath
>like you and I but they get it out of the water instead of the air. Unless
>you have a tank setup that does a great job of putting o2 back into the
>water (air-stone, filter that circulates and creates a lot of surface
>activity) your fish will be in trouble.

All true. However, I replaced the lost O2 by airstone fed with pure O2.

I keep reading about ten gal rule, but as I recal this is actually
addressing the fish to surface area ratio in still water. Thus, bubblers.
which create much more water surface area. Doesn't that allow for more
fish load?

I mean..... The local fish store has many way overloaded 10s and they do
it by circulating well areated water through them.

Same thing at bait shops.

Why doesn't high aration vastly increase the safe load size of a ten gal
tank?
--
Bill

Please God, delete G Bush. NOW.

[blove]

that is cruelty to animals, no it doesnt limit the growth it just kills the
fish. boiling the water also gets rid of alot of minerals that the fish
need. its exactly what distilled water is wich is bad for fish. oscars and
goldfish are by far the messiest fish, they excrete alot of ammonia, hence
the 10 gallon rule for goldfish and the huge tank rule for oscars.


"Bill Schowengerdt" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 8 Mar 2004 19:57:39 -0500, In the heat of the moment, "Kodiak"
> > posted:
> .
> >One 3" OSCAR by itself is way too big for your 10gallon.
> >You are gonna need at very minimum a 70 gallon tank for
> >all those fish you mention. In a healthy environment your
> >OSCAR will double in size to 6", and by then even if he eats all those
> >fish your 70gallon will not be enough when he gets to 8".
> >...Kodiak
>
> Won't a small tank limit oscar groth like it does with GF?
>
> --
> Bill
>
> Please God, delete G Bush. NOW.

[Geezer From Freezer]

dz wrote:
>
> When the boiled water cooled down to room temperature, oxygen re-dissolved
> into the water. Also, by boiling the water, most bugs will be killed and
> give you a bug-free water.

You also remove some of the nutrients when boiling - these nutrients can be good
for goldies

[Geezer From Freezer]

Bill Schowengerdt wrote:

> I keep reading about ten gal rule, but as I recal this is actually
> addressing the fish to surface area ratio in still water. Thus, bubblers.
> which create much more water surface area. Doesn't that allow for more
> fish load?
err no.....oxygenating a tank does not remove harmful ammonia, nitrites and
nitrates!!

Also those fish need swimming room

[Geezer From Freezer]

Bill Schowengerdt wrote:
> Won't a small tank limit oscar groth like it does with GF?

You mean stunt the fish, severely shortening their life and making
them more prone to disease.

[dz]

What nutrient? Could you please point them out?

"Geezer From Freezer" > wrote in>
> dz wrote:
> >
> > When the boiled water cooled down to room temperature, oxygen
re-dissolved
> > into the water. Also, by boiling the water, most bugs will be killed and
> > give you a bug-free water.
> message ...
>

> You also remove some of the nutrients when boiling - these nutrients can
be good
> for goldies

[Tom La Bron]

Bill,

The tank size limiting the growth of a fish is an Urban Myth that keeps
being brought up. Research done in Ahrensburg, Germany by the Federal
Research Centre for Fisheries, Institute of Coastal and Inland Fisheries in
1985 proved this to be wrong. The only thing that causes the fish to not
grow is environmental waste caused by the fish themselves.

Tom L.L.
-----------------------------------------
"Bill Schowengerdt" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 8 Mar 2004 19:57:39 -0500, In the heat of the moment, "Kodiak"
> > posted:
> .
> >One 3" OSCAR by itself is way too big for your 10gallon.
> >You are gonna need at very minimum a 70 gallon tank for
> >all those fish you mention. In a healthy environment your
> >OSCAR will double in size to 6", and by then even if he eats all those
> >fish your 70gallon will not be enough when he gets to 8".
> >...Kodiak
>
> Won't a small tank limit oscar groth like it does with GF?
>
> --
> Bill
>
> Please God, delete G Bush. NOW.

[Tom La Bron]

No Geezer,

He is talking about the Urban Myth that suggests that the fish give off a
hormone that retards growth because of its build up in the limited space
environment.

Tom L.L.
----------------------------------
"Geezer From Freezer" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Bill Schowengerdt wrote:
> > Won't a small tank limit oscar groth like it does with GF?
>
> You mean stunt the fish, severely shortening their life and making
> them more prone to disease.

[Geezer From Freezer]

salt, calcium to name two!



dz wrote:
>
> What nutrient? Could you please point them out?
>
> "Geezer From Freezer" > wrote in>
> > dz wrote:
> > >
> > > When the boiled water cooled down to room temperature, oxygen
> re-dissolved
> > > into the water. Also, by boiling the water, most bugs will be killed and
> > > give you a bug-free water.
> > message ...
> >
>
> > You also remove some of the nutrients when boiling - these nutrients can
> be good
> > for goldies

[Geezer From Freezer]

Tom,

Yep - a load of BS.




Tom La Bron wrote:
>
> No Geezer,
>
> He is talking about the Urban Myth that suggests that the fish give off a
> hormone that retards growth because of its build up in the limited space
> environment.
>
> Tom L.L.
> ----------------------------------
> "Geezer From Freezer" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > Bill Schowengerdt wrote:
> > > Won't a small tank limit oscar groth like it does with GF?
> >
> > You mean stunt the fish, severely shortening their life and making
> > them more prone to disease.

[BErney1014]

>> > You also remove some of the nutrients when boiling - these nutrients
>can
>> be good
>> > for goldies

>> What nutrient? Could you please point them out?

>salt, calcium to name two!

Stop telling lies. You don't know what you are talking about.

[Geezer From Freezer]

BErney1014 wrote:
>
> >salt, calcium to name two!
>
> Stop telling lies. You don't know what you are talking about.

I guarantee you that those are found in tap water. I'll also guarantee you
that PURE H2o will kill a goldfish!

[BErney1014]

>I guarantee you that those are found in tap water. I'll also guarantee you
>that PURE H2o will kill a goldfish!

You said the salt and calcium are lost in boiling. You don't know what you are
saying either. Stop lying.

[Donald K]

Geezer From Freezer wrote:

>
>
> dz wrote:
>>
>> When the boiled water cooled down to room temperature, oxygen
>> re-dissolved into the water. Also, by boiling the water, most bugs
>> will be killed and give you a bug-free water.
>
> You also remove some of the nutrients when boiling - these nutrients
> can be good for goldies

Um, boiling does not remove salt or calcium. That's why some people have
"lime stains" in their tea pots...

Now if you say "distilling" then I'll believe you. ;-)

-Donald
--
"A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy
enough people to make it worth the effort." -Herm Albright

[Geezer From Freezer]

BErney1014 wrote:
>
> >I guarantee you that those are found in tap water. I'll also guarantee you
> >that PURE H2o will kill a goldfish!
>
> You said the salt and calcium are lost in boiling. You don't know what you are
> saying either. Stop lying.

I never said that. I was giving some instances of the minerals found in water.
At no point did I say salt and calcium are removed during boiling.
My quote was: You also remove some of the nutrients when boiling - these
nutrients can be good
for goldies

Some chemicals will change via heat.

[Bill Schowengerdt]

On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 09:13:55 +0000, In the heat of the moment, Geezer
From Freezer > posted:
..
>salt, calcium to name two!

Those are neither nutrients, nor something removed by boiling
>
>dz wrote:
>>
>> What nutrient? Could you please point them out?
>>
>> "Geezer From Freezer" > wrote in>
>> > dz wrote:
>> > >
>> > > When the boiled water cooled down to room temperature, oxygen
>> re-dissolved
>> > > into the water. Also, by boiling the water, most bugs will be killed and
>> > > give you a bug-free water.
>> > message ...
>> >
>>
>> > You also remove some of the nutrients when boiling - these nutrients can
>> be good
>> > for goldies

--
Bill

Please God, delete G Bush. NOW.

[Bill Schowengerdt]

On Tue, 09 Mar 2004 09:33:14 +0000, In the heat of the moment, Geezer
From Freezer > posted:
..
>
>
>Bill Schowengerdt wrote:
>
>> I keep reading about ten gal rule, but as I recal this is actually
>> addressing the fish to surface area ratio in still water. Thus, bubblers.
>> which create much more water surface area. Doesn't that allow for more
>> fish load?
>err no.....oxygenating a tank does not remove harmful ammonia, nitrites and
>nitrates!!
>
>Also those fish need swimming room

Then how do fish dealers get away with vastly overloaded 10 gal tanks?

--
Bill

Please God, delete G Bush. NOW.

[Bill Schowengerdt]

I do not think it is a good practice to jump into a NG and be critical of
those already posting, but in this case, I could not resist.

On Tue, 09 Mar 2004 07:04:55 GMT, In the heat of the moment, "blove"
> posted:
..
>that is cruelty to animals, no it doesnt limit the growth it just kills the
>fish.

to utilize a natural mechnisim which limits growth to fit the
environment, is hardly what I consider cruelty.

> boiling the water also gets rid of allot of minerals that the fish
>need. its exactly what distilled water is wich is bad for fish

Boiling water gets rid of only things which have a boiling point at, or
lower, than that of water. This includes most gasses and alcohols.

Minerals have much higher boiling points which is why they are not
removed. They are only concentrated.

Are you saying that you think that boiling water creates distilled water?
If so.. you are incorrect.

--
Bill

Please God, delete G Bush. NOW.

[Donald K]

Bill Schowengerdt wrote:

> Then how do fish dealers get away with vastly overloaded 10 gal tanks?
>

You're not there first thing in the morning when they net out the
deaders.

Also, in a *good* LFS the tanks are maintained more frequently than the
typical hobbiest would.

-D
--
"A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy
enough people to make it worth the effort." -Herm Albright

[Donald K]

Bill Schowengerdt wrote:

>
> I do not think it is a good practice to jump into a NG and be critical
> of those already posting, but in this case, I could not resist.

That's OK Bill... I don't think any worse of you just because of that...

> Boiling water gets rid of only things which have a boiling point at,
> or lower, than that of water. This includes most gasses and alcohols.

Most "gasses?"

Gee, when *I* took p-chem a gas was a chemical and/or element that was
in it's vapor state. It really depended on the temperature and pressure
of the surroundings.

So, something that is a gas has already "boiled" (or sublimated, if you
want to be picky).

-Donald
--
"A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy
enough people to make it worth the effort." -Herm Albright

[Donald K]

Bill Schowengerdt wrote:

> BTW.. I sustained so many fish in 1/2 gal tank by bubbleing pure
> oxygen.
>

Did you check what bubbling pure O2 did to the pH?

How did you remove ammonia caused by the fish wastes?

--
"A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy
enough people to make it worth the effort." -Herm Albright

[BErney1014]

<<<What nutrient? Could you please point them out?>>>

<<salt, calcium to name two!>>

>My quote was: You also remove some of the nutrients when boiling - these
>nutrients can be good
>for goldies


>Some chemicals will change via heat.

Could you explain?

[Kodiak]

Your taking everything out of context Bill.

1. It is not a natural mechanism to have fish poison themselves
with their own feces to the point that limits their growth. Tom
already explained to you that the actual physical tank size is not
what limits growth, but small tanks are often overloaded to the point
that terrible water conditions inhibit growth. Again, this is not a
natural
process so YES IT IS CRUEL.

2. Noone said that boiling water creates distilled water, Donald K posted
that distilling water creates distilled water ie: boil and then
condense.
Thought you would have picked up on that.

3. Your original post on the March 8th where you had 2GF, an Oscar, a Cory
and a Shag Catfish all about 3" in a 10 gallon tank is CRAZY and
CRUEL.
Your fish started dying off, we all told you it was too much, you need
100-150 gallons
for 15" of fish. 4 days later you are still asking how fish dealers
get away with it?
Fish dealers get away with overloaded 10gallon tanks because they have
a
sump system which connect all the tanks together with pipes and routes
the
water to one big Giant Filter/sump/aeration system which makes that
one
10 gallon tank able to handle a load much bigger than it's actual size.

I hope this helps, Sorry I didn't mean to be critical, but you should be
the last person
in this NG to criticize. Please move your fish to seperate tanks, unless
they are all
already dead.

....Kodiak



"Bill Schowengerdt" > wrote in message
...
>
> I do not think it is a good practice to jump into a NG and be critical of
> those already posting, but in this case, I could not resist.
>
> On Tue, 09 Mar 2004 07:04:55 GMT, In the heat of the moment, "blove"
> > posted:
> .
> >that is cruelty to animals, no it doesnt limit the growth it just kills
the
> >fish.
>
> to utilize a natural mechnisim which limits growth to fit the
> environment, is hardly what I consider cruelty.
>
> > boiling the water also gets rid of allot of minerals that the fish
> >need. its exactly what distilled water is wich is bad for fish
>
> Boiling water gets rid of only things which have a boiling point at, or
> lower, than that of water. This includes most gasses and alcohols.
>
> Minerals have much higher boiling points which is why they are not
> removed. They are only concentrated.
>
> Are you saying that you think that boiling water creates distilled water?
> If so.. you are incorrect.
>
> --
> Bill
>
> Please God, delete G Bush. NOW.

[mcgyverjones]

"Donald K" > wrote in message
...
> Bill Schowengerdt wrote:
>
snip

> > Boiling water gets rid of only things which have a boiling point at,
> > or lower, than that of water. This includes most gasses and alcohols.
>
> Most "gasses?"
>
> Gee, when *I* took p-chem a gas was a chemical and/or element that was
> in it's vapor state. It really depended on the temperature and pressure
> of the surroundings.
>
> So, something that is a gas has already "boiled" (or sublimated, if you
> want to be picky).
>
Actually, many gasses disolve in water. Have you never drunk a carbonated
drink? What about the bubbles that form on the side of a glass of tap water
when left on the counter for a few hours? Try that with water that has been
boiled for a couple of minutes.

MJ

[Donald K]

mcgyverjones wrote:

> What about the bubbles that form on the side of a glass of tap water
> when left on the counter for a few hours? Try that with water that has
> been boiled for a couple of minutes.

Yup-er-roo.

That's why some people don't like the taste of boiled water.

And if you leave that boiled water out? The gasses go back into
solution. (At least that were there by equilibrium, those that your
water company put in are probably gone for good. I don't have a
naturally high partial pressure of chlorine at my house...) That's why
the recommendation for people who don't like the taste of boiled water
is to let it sit out for a while before drinking...

-D
--
"A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy
enough people to make it worth the effort." -Herm Albright

[[email protected]]

calcium precipitates out of solution when water is boiled. one reason that coffee
pots collect a white crust. Ingrid


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

boiling gets rid of the OXYGEN. try freezing boiled water... nice clear ice no air
bubbles. distilled water can be oxygenated, but without minerals the pH swings
violently mostly dropping the pH. some kind of buffer system must be put back if
softened or RO water is used. Ingrid

"blove" > wrote:
>that is cruelty to animals, no it doesnt limit the growth it just kills the
>fish. boiling the water also gets rid of alot of minerals that the fish
>need. its exactly what distilled water is wich is bad for fish.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Geezer From Freezer]

wrote:
>
> calcium precipitates out of solution when water is boiled. one reason that coffee
> pots collect a white crust. Ingrid
>

Thank you Dr Solo - I did not know which ones, but I knew I had read that some
chemicals/minerals were removed
or changed during boiling - I was half right and half wrong!

[[email protected]]

There may be no proof it exists, but there is no way to prove it doesnt either. the
fact that a scientist cannot find a secreted hormone of some kind does not mean it
doesnt exist. inside cells extremely small amounts of chemicals can be powerful
signals.
it doesnt need to be secreted. crowding and ambient ammonia levels are going to
cause serious stress and release of cortisones IN the fish and that will stunt growth
and affect the health of the fish. Ingrid

>> He is talking about the Urban Myth that suggests that the fish give off a
>> hormone that retards growth because of its build up in the limited space
>> environment.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Donald K]

Occam's razor...

Absent experimental evidence one way or the other, I'm going to assume
that it is the accumlation of wastes until such point as there is an
observed behavior that isn't explained by the wastes hypothesis.

Fair?

-Donald

wrote:

> There may be no proof it exists, but there is no way to prove it
> doesnt either. the fact that a scientist cannot find a secreted
> hormone of some kind does not mean it
> doesnt exist. inside cells extremely small amounts of chemicals can
> be powerful signals.
> it doesnt need to be secreted. crowding and ambient ammonia levels
> are going to cause serious stress and release of cortisones IN the
> fish and that will stunt growth
> and affect the health of the fish. Ingrid
>
>>> He is talking about the Urban Myth that suggests that the fish give
>>> off a hormone that retards growth because of its build up in the
>>> limited space environment.


--
"A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy
enough people to make it worth the effort." -Herm Albright

[BErney1014]

>Thank you Dr Solo - I did not know which ones, but I knew I had read that
>some
>chemicals/minerals were removed
>or changed during boiling - I was half right and half wrong!

Your math is worse than your logic. I was hoping you are a case of bad memory,
Ingrid confirms my other hunch.

[[email protected]]

not absents at all... lots of people raise fish in "raceways" where the water flows
in one end and out the other washing all the wastes away. but there still is a limit
to how many fish per raceway.
when they want really big fish and want em to grow really fast.......... the use
recombinant DNA techniques. Ingrid

Donald K > wrote:

>Occam's razor...
>
>Absent experimental evidence one way or the other, I'm going to assume
>that it is the accumlation of wastes until such point as there is an
>observed behavior that isn't explained by the wastes hypothesis.
>
>Fair?
>
>-Donald


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Geezer From Freezer]

BErney1014 wrote:
>
> >Thank you Dr Solo - I did not know which ones, but I knew I had read that
> >some
> >chemicals/minerals were removed
> >or changed during boiling - I was half right and half wrong!
>
> Your math is worse than your logic. I was hoping you are a case of bad memory,
> Ingrid confirms my other hunch.

Yes I am wrong at times, as are you no doubt. Don't be so petty, stick to the
newsgroup
subject.

[Happy'Cam'per]

> Occam's razor...

Heh heh
I love that one. The path of least resistance or the simplest route is
usually the right one JA?
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**

[Donald K]

wrote:

> not absents at all... lots of people raise fish in "raceways" where
> the water flows
> in one end and out the other washing all the wastes away. but there
> still is a limit to how many fish per raceway.

Wouldn't the same flow that carries away waste also carry away the
hormone?

If we postulate a super strong hormone that can be active in
concentration low enough to survive a constant washing away, the
behavior we would expect to see would be something like this...

One fish in a race way: 8 inches
Two fish in a race way: 5.5 inches
Four fish in a race way: 4 inches

(specific numbers given to provide a relative measure, not that I would
expect the above numbers to be correct...)

Is that the observed behavior?

-Donald
--
"A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy
enough people to make it worth the effort." -Herm Albright

[Bill Schowengerdt]

On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 13:36:35 GMT, In the heat of the moment,
posted:
..
>calcium precipitates out of solution when water is boiled. one reason that coffee
>pots collect a white crust. Ingrid


Onlu if the water exceeds saturation, which does not happen when water is
boiled whithout cansiderable reduction.
--
Bill

Please God, delete G Bush. NOW.

[Bill Schowengerdt]

n Sat, 13 Mar 2004 00:16:41 -0500, in rec.aquaria.freshwater.goldfish
you wrote:

>I hope this helps, Sorry I didn't mean to be critical, but you should =
be
>the last person
>in this NG to criticize.=20

Sorry if my posts were seen as criticism. I was simply asking further
questions in an effort to more fully understand. I did not intend to be
viewed as argumentative.

>Please move your fish to seperate tanks, unless
>they are all
>already dead.

Nope.. Three remain. 1 GF, the Oscar, and a Cory. (8 inch total). The
tank is now set up with no actual plants, a very thin layer of gravel,
bio-wheel and small air-pump/airstone

As far as I can tell. all fish are content and healthy. I have convinced
my wife to feed what she considers a starvation diet which contains some
GF flakes and some Oscar food. I have some frozen Korean fishcake and
sometimes feed the Oscar some shavings off the cake The Oscar almost
jumps out of the water when he hits the floating shavings.

And... Not to seem argumentitive, especiually since I did not come here
to debate the ten gal rule, but.... 30 years ago I had a 20 long with
UGF, back of tank filter and lots of airstones fed by a large airpump. I
kept at least 60 inches for fish for over two years with very few losses
and no illness. The only problem I recall having was being over-run by
snails that came in with several plants, and once when I forgot to close
the lid, I had a mass suicide of mollies and swordtails jumping out of
the tank.

Perhaps I was just lucky, or perhaps I was successful because of above
average maintainance. Nonetheless. It showed me that beyond all doubt the
ten gal rule is far from unbreakable. (successfully)
--
--
Bill

Please God, delete G Bush. NOW.

[Bill Schowengerdt]

On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 18:22:11 -0800, in rec.aquaria.freshwater.goldfish
you wrote:

>Bill Schowengerdt wrote:
>
>> BTW.. I sustained so many fish in 1/2 gal tank by bubbleing pure
>> oxygen.

No.. Did not think of it
>
>Did you check what bubbling pure O2 did to the pH?
>
>How did you remove ammonia caused by the fish wastes?

Only a holding tank, fish not in it long enough to provide waste that had
time to br4eak down
--
Bill

Please God, delete G Bush. NOW.

[Bill Schowengerdt]

On Mon, 08 Mar 2004 01:20:19 -0600, In the heat of the moment, Bill
Schowengerdt > posted:
..
>Hi,
>
>My wife set up the ten gal tank with 3" gravel. Overfeeding soon caused
>cloudy water so I changed all the water and removed all gravel.
>
>Held fish (2 GF,, an oscar (Yes, all get along with each other), cory,
>and shag catfish (cannot remember proper name) in a 1/2 gal. tank with
>old water. (GF, oscar, and shag all about 3"... cory about 2")
>
>Refilled ten and used conditioner. Matched temp and moved fish.
>
>Shag and oscar quickly in trouble so I moved them back to holding tank.
>Soom, cory went from looking fine to upside down and curled. So.. I put
>him in the holding tank and agitted him and he soon fully recovered.

--snip --

Thank you all for your help and the discussion. It was very informative.
--
Bill

Please God, delete G Bush. NOW.

[Morten]

"Bill Schowengerdt" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 13:36:35 GMT, In the heat of the moment,
> posted:
> .
> >calcium precipitates out of solution when water is boiled. one reason
that coffee
> >pots collect a white crust. Ingrid
>
>
> Onlu if the water exceeds saturation, which does not happen when water is
> boiled whithout cansiderable reduction.

That depends on the starting levels :-)


/Morten



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.611 / Virus Database: 391 - Release Date: 03/03/2004

[BErney1014]

>usually the right one JA?
>--
>**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**

Geezer is really JA? Explains the ingrid/geezer tag team posts.

[Kodiak]

OK Bill, Just do a 40% water change every 3 days
with 3day old or aged or dechlorinated temp matched
water and get that OSCAR out of there before he gets
to 4".

The reason you had 60" of fish in a 20gal is because they
were not Goldfish, Catfish and Oscars, the dirtiest of all dirty
fish!. Swordtails and Mollies are alot cleaner fish and they
don't necessarily hold to the 10gal/inch rule. Nonetheless,
If you had a mass suicide of fish when you left your lid open
it's because your fish were suffering from PT (pollution Trauma).
When subjected to high levels of PT, fish will often flash, slam
into the sides of tanks, and/or try and jump out. Even if you
did a 30% water change every day, (and I doubt you did that for
2 years) you were not nice to your fish. Incidently, what happened
after the 2 years?

....Kodiak

"Bill Schowengerdt" > wrote in message
...
> n Sat, 13 Mar 2004 00:16:41 -0500, in rec.aquaria.freshwater.goldfish
> you wrote:
>
> >I hope this helps, Sorry I didn't mean to be critical, but you should =
> be
> >the last person
> >in this NG to criticize.=20
>
> Sorry if my posts were seen as criticism. I was simply asking further
> questions in an effort to more fully understand. I did not intend to be
> viewed as argumentative.
>
> >Please move your fish to seperate tanks, unless
> >they are all
> >already dead.
>
> Nope.. Three remain. 1 GF, the Oscar, and a Cory. (8 inch total). The
> tank is now set up with no actual plants, a very thin layer of gravel,
> bio-wheel and small air-pump/airstone
>
> As far as I can tell. all fish are content and healthy. I have convinced
> my wife to feed what she considers a starvation diet which contains some
> GF flakes and some Oscar food. I have some frozen Korean fishcake and
> sometimes feed the Oscar some shavings off the cake The Oscar almost
> jumps out of the water when he hits the floating shavings.
>
> And... Not to seem argumentitive, especiually since I did not come here
> to debate the ten gal rule, but.... 30 years ago I had a 20 long with
> UGF, back of tank filter and lots of airstones fed by a large airpump. I
> kept at least 60 inches for fish for over two years with very few losses
> and no illness. The only problem I recall having was being over-run by
> snails that came in with several plants, and once when I forgot to close
> the lid, I had a mass suicide of mollies and swordtails jumping out of
> the tank.
>
> Perhaps I was just lucky, or perhaps I was successful because of above
> average maintainance. Nonetheless. It showed me that beyond all doubt the
> ten gal rule is far from unbreakable. (successfully)
> --
> --
> Bill
>
> Please God, delete G Bush. NOW.

[[email protected]]

yes, of course it would. but it still leaves the stress of high density that is an
internal release of stress hormones. Ingrid


Donald K > wrote:
>Wouldn't the same flow that carries away waste also carry away the
>hormone?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

you must not live in limestone country. around here water softeners must be used to
prevent everything from getting a coating of calcium. calcium is not really very
soluble in hot water. Ingrid

Bill Schowengerdt > wrote:

>On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 13:36:35 GMT, In the heat of the moment,
posted:
>.
>>calcium precipitates out of solution when water is boiled. one reason that coffee
>>pots collect a white crust. Ingrid
>
>
>Onlu if the water exceeds saturation, which does not happen when water is
>boiled whithout cansiderable reduction.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[[email protected]]

you were both lucky and had above average maintenance. the 10 gallon rule is for
newbies or people who suffer catastrophic losses, or, those who cannot for one reason
or another keep up maintenance on a strict routine. Ingrid

Bill Schowengerdt > wrote:
>Perhaps I was just lucky, or perhaps I was successful because of above
>average maintainance. Nonetheless. It showed me that beyond all doubt the
>ten gal rule is far from unbreakable. (successfully)
>--



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

[Donald K]

BErney1014 wrote:

>>usually the right one JA?
>>--
>>**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**
>
> Geezer is really JA? Explains the ingrid/geezer tag team posts.

JA == dialect for yes.

Take your meds BErney...

-D
--
Axiom #2:
"Ability to type on a computer terminal is no guarantee of sanity,
intelligence, or common sense."

[Donald K]

FWIW,

My aquaculture rotifer buddies are now at like an order higher density
(critters/ml) than any other literature value. They are flushing a
couple thousand dollars a day of rotifers because they're not set up to
ship them economically.

At the moment they don't believe they actually have a non-physical upper
limit as long as their reactors can keep the clean water, food and
AmQuel pumping fast enough.

Of course they have several acres of algae in the world's largest
biofilter to clean up their feed water...

http://www.rotifer.com/icrs.htm

wrote:

> yes, of course it would. but it still leaves the stress of high
> density that is an
> internal release of stress hormones. Ingrid

I usually use an aqueous alcohol solution to wash away the "internal
release of stress hormones"... ;-)

>
>
> Donald K > wrote:
>>Wouldn't the same flow that carries away waste also carry away the
>>hormone?
>

--
"A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy
enough people to make it worth the effort." -Herm Albright

[Happy'Cam'per]

> >usually the right one JA?
> >--
> >**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**
>
> Geezer is really JA? Explains the ingrid/geezer tag team posts.

What are you Blathering about? Got your wires crossed there mate! :o
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**

[Geezer From Freezer]

Are you attacking me?
What is JA? JAck-ass?

BErney1014 wrote:
>
> >usually the right one JA?
> >--
> >**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**
>
> Geezer is really JA? Explains the ingrid/geezer tag team posts.

[Happy'Cam'per]

"Geezer From Freezer" > wrote in message
...
> Are you attacking me?

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1........Sensitive Geezer, go back to your freezer and
cool off ;)

> What is JA? JAck-ass?

Ja is YES in Afrikaans, or German, take your pick.
DAS IS GOED JA........Gettit??
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**

[Geezer From Freezer]

Happy'Cam'per wrote:
>
> "Geezer From Freezer" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Are you attacking me?
>
> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1........Sensitive Geezer, go back to your freezer and
> cool off ;)

No, but Berney is attacking me and Ingrid and he doesn't even know me or Ingrid.

[Happy'Cam'per]

So we'll just leave it at that then !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I actually have NO IDEA what you're on about.
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**




"Geezer From Freezer" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Happy'Cam'per wrote:
> >
> > "Geezer From Freezer" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Are you attacking me?
> >
> > !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1........Sensitive Geezer, go back to your freezer
and
> > cool off ;)
>
> No, but Berney is attacking me and Ingrid and he doesn't even know me or
Ingrid.

[Bill Schowengerdt]

On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 22:34:48 -0500, In the heat of the moment, "Kodiak"
> posted:
..
>OK Bill, Just do a 40% water change every 3 days
>with 3day old or aged or dechlorinated temp matched
>water and get that OSCAR out of there before he gets
>to 4".
>
>The reason you had 60" of fish in a 20gal is because they
>were not Goldfish, Catfish and Oscars, the dirtiest of all dirty
>fish!. Swordtails and Mollies are alot cleaner fish and they
>don't necessarily hold to the 10gal/inch rule. Nonetheless,
>If you had a mass suicide of fish when you left your lid open
>it's because your fish were suffering from PT (pollution Trauma).
>When subjected to high levels of PT, fish will often flash, slam
>into the sides of tanks, and/or try and jump out.

That was what was odd about it. I left the lid open many times with only
a very ocasional fish jumping out. And previous to the mass jumping
night, they were not flashing, but behaved quite normaly.

>Even if you
>did a 30% water change every day, (and I doubt you did that for
>2 years)

Once a week.

>Incidently, what happened
>after the 2 years?

First wife got mad and smashed the front glass with a baseball bat. She
did the same thing to a 75 gl and a 110 gal. It was not a pretty sight.

--
Bill

Please God, delete G Bush. NOW.

[Happy'Cam'per]

>
> First wife got mad and smashed the front glass with a baseball bat. She
> did the same thing to a 75 gl and a 110 gal. It was not a pretty sight.
>
> --
> Bill

Good Gawd Bill, are you still married to her??? !
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**

[Bill Schowengerdt]

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:21:45 +0200, In the heat of the moment,
"Happy'Cam'per" > posted:
..
>Good Gawd Bill, are you still married to her??? !


Absolutly not. She was truly crazy. You should have su een what she did
to my MGB AFTER we were divorced.
>--

--
Bill

Please God, delete G Bush. NOW.

[Kodiak]

Bill,
Did you ever consider that she maybe poisoned the fish?
I had a freind in a similar situation, autopsy showed the cat
was poisoned. He loved the cat, i guess that's why she hated it.
....Kodiak

"Bill Schowengerdt" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:21:45 +0200, In the heat of the moment,
> "Happy'Cam'per" > posted:
> .
> >Good Gawd Bill, are you still married to her??? !
>
>
> Absolutly not. She was truly crazy. You should have su een what she did
> to my MGB AFTER we were divorced.
> >--
>
> --
> Bill
>
> Please God, delete G Bush. NOW.

[Happy'Cam'per]

Moral of the story

If you have a forgiving girlfriend/wife when it comes to the aquarium hobby
then hold on tight. Most women I know simply despise that the fish tanks get
more attention than they do :O
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**



"Kodiak" > wrote in message
...
> Bill,
> Did you ever consider that she maybe poisoned the fish?
> I had a freind in a similar situation, autopsy showed the cat
> was poisoned. He loved the cat, i guess that's why she hated it.
> ...Kodiak
>
> "Bill Schowengerdt" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:21:45 +0200, In the heat of the moment,
> > "Happy'Cam'per" > posted:
> > .
> > >Good Gawd Bill, are you still married to her??? !
> >
> >
> > Absolutly not. She was truly crazy. You should have su een what she did
> > to my MGB AFTER we were divorced.
> > >--
> >
> > --
> > Bill
> >
> > Please God, delete G Bush. NOW.
>
>

[Bill Schowengerdt]

On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 22:14:24 -0500, In the heat of the moment, "Kodiak"
> posted:
..
>Bill,
> Did you ever consider that she maybe poisoned the fish?
>I had a freind in a similar situation, autopsy showed the cat
>was poisoned. He loved the cat, i guess that's why she hated it.
>...Kodiak

Cat poisoning is slow and creul. A good clean shot is much better.
Especially with a deer rifle. Then you get the satisfaction of seeing the
cat explode.

But.. as far as the fish went.. It was an allunimun baseball bat. The 110
gal was surprisingly hard to break. She had to take several swings at it
and she was a strong girl.

>"Bill Schowengerdt" > wrote in message
...
>> On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:21:45 +0200, In the heat of the moment,
>> "Happy'Cam'per" > posted:
>> .
>> >Good Gawd Bill, are you still married to her??? !
>>
>>
>> Absolutly not. She was truly crazy. You should have su een what she did
>> to my MGB AFTER we were divorced.
>> >--
>>
>> --
>> Bill
>>
>> Please God, delete G Bush. NOW.
>

--
Bill

Please God, delete G Bush. NOW.

[Bill Schowengerdt]

On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 10:11:30 +0200, In the heat of the moment,
"Happy'Cam'per" > posted:
..
>
>Moral of the story
>
>If you have a forgiving girlfriend/wife when it comes to the aquarium hobby
>then hold on tight. Most women I know simply despise that the fish tanks get
>more attention than they do :O

I agree. And.. no matter how hard you try to keep from getting some
carpet wet. There will still be enough for them to bitch about.

--
Bill

Please God, delete G Bush. NOW.

[Kodiak]

That is weird Bill,
Sounds like you killed her cat with a rifle...

Your X is a spoiled Bratt who needs a lesson in court for what she did.
I would use that against her to gain custody of the children.

....Kodiak

"Bill Schowengerdt" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 22:14:24 -0500, In the heat of the moment, "Kodiak"
> > posted:
> .
> >Bill,
> > Did you ever consider that she maybe poisoned the fish?
> >I had a freind in a similar situation, autopsy showed the cat
> >was poisoned. He loved the cat, i guess that's why she hated it.
> >...Kodiak
>
> Cat poisoning is slow and creul. A good clean shot is much better.
> Especially with a deer rifle. Then you get the satisfaction of seeing the
> cat explode.
>
> But.. as far as the fish went.. It was an allunimun baseball bat. The 110
> gal was surprisingly hard to break. She had to take several swings at it
> and she was a strong girl.
>
> >"Bill Schowengerdt" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:21:45 +0200, In the heat of the moment,
> >> "Happy'Cam'per" > posted:
> >> .
> >> >Good Gawd Bill, are you still married to her??? !
> >>
> >>
> >> Absolutly not. She was truly crazy. You should have su een what she did
> >> to my MGB AFTER we were divorced.
> >> >--
> >>
> >> --
> >> Bill
> >>
> >> Please God, delete G Bush. NOW.
> >
>
> --
> Bill
>
> Please God, delete G Bush. NOW.

[Bill Schowengerdt]

On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 22:32:57 -0500, In the heat of the moment, "Kodiak"
> posted:
..
>That is weird Bill,
>Sounds like you killed her cat with a rifle...

I would never be married to anyone with a cat

--
Bill

Please God, delete G Bush. NOW.