bettas in plastic cups - bettas.jpg (0/1)
 

Koi-lo wrote:

I don't know if this still holds true but I read some statistics some years
back that fully 80% of all tropical fish are dead within a few weeks of
being sold. As I recall ignorance on the part of the owner and parasite
infestation were the main causes. Neglect after the novelty wore off was
also high on the list. There may be newer statistics out there now.

I don't know if it applies to marine aquariums. It probably does.

Things are probably much worse with sea- than freshwater fishes. While
freshwater fishes are often bred in captivity, this is not possible with
most sea water fishes. Instead, those are taken from the wild, often by
cyanide fishing. This results in very high losses during capture and
transport, in addition the weakend fish easily die after delivery to the
customer. That sea water tanks are more complicated to maintain and less
forgiving than fresh water only adds to these losses.

bettas in plastic cups - bettas.jpg (0/1)
 

"Gill Passman" wrote in message
.. .
Koi-lo wrote:
I did come up
with two more 2 gallon tanks from my outbuilding but don't have the room
to set them up until after the holidays.
==================
Bet your bettas will be thrilled to bits with their late Christmas
present....you'll need to update the photos on your site...

$$ Yeah, that's another project for a long winter evening, updating my
website.

Until I had the bettas I never truly realised how expressive fish can be
of their "feelings". I bought Bob a fake hollow log yesterday - after a
few nudges he swam through it then came up to the front of the tank to
me - flared and did a little dance then straight back to playing with his
new toy :-) One happy betta I guess....

$$ Sure sounds like it! :-) All my guys are doing is swimming back and
forth, back and forth watching me as I do my thing around the kitchen and
diningroom, hoping for another tasty "snack".... what little beggars they
are!
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

bettas in plastic cups - bettas.jpg (0/1)
 

"NetMax" wrote in message
.. .
"Koi-lo" wrote in message
...
## This may work with a Petco or Superpets but what about a Wal*Mart or
privately owned store where the owner is oblivious?
========
With a privately owned store, it may not. Wal-Mart does respond to
complaints, but their staff training will likely never be sufficient to
responsibly sell live creatures. Their fish dept is imo, a lost leader,
it's only there to draw sales to food, tanks and accessories. I don't
consider Wal-Mart an LFS, most of them are more like fish-pimps.

## Happily, many of them here in TN no longer carry live creatures. They
just sell pet supplies. I wish all their stores would stop selling live
fish. I haven't seen birds in any of their stores in awhile.

I just hope you don't give up or come to accept the improper conditions
you see.

## I will never give up.

The difference between an LFS doing a good job and those not
doing a good job is basically *care*. If the company cares, or the
employees care, then minimum wage makes no difference, training is done
because it can be done while they are working.

## Wages aside, actually they get little training here other than to
*always* be polite to the customers, sell them as much in the way of
supplies as you can, dress neatly, etc. Here we have the blind leading the
blind when you have one disinterested teenager teaching another
disinterested teenager. I see this over and over in the pet stores I've
frequented. Or sometimes the kid is interested and believes him/herself to
be a pro because they have a 10 gallon tank of guppies at home. What I'm
saying is to make these jobs "serious jobs" with serious training and a
living wage with benefits. One large privately owned store in Nashville
does this and the employees stay there for years! I wish this store was
closer.

If new hobbyists don't
care, it's because they don't see it. If experienced hobbyists don't care
and make excuses for them, then we are in trouble (imnsho ;~).

## This is true.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

bettas in plastic cups - bettas.jpg (0/1)
 

"Dr Engelbert Buxbaum" wrote in message
...
Koi-lo wrote:

I don't know if this still holds true but I read some statistics some
years
back that fully 80% of all tropical fish are dead within a few weeks of
being sold. As I recall ignorance on the part of the owner and parasite
infestation were the main causes. Neglect after the novelty wore off was
also high on the list. There may be newer statistics out there now.

I don't know if it applies to marine aquariums. It probably does.
===================
Things are probably much worse with sea- than freshwater fishes. While
freshwater fishes are often bred in captivity, this is not possible with
most sea water fishes. Instead, those are taken from the wild, often by
cyanide fishing.

$$ Yes, I read about this some years ago in TFH magazine. :-( I think
harvesting these fish for the pet trade should be stopped. The reefs are
being damaged and these fish are surely doomed. But it appears $$$ wins out
and the practice will continue until the reefs are picked clean.

This results in very high losses during capture and
transport, in addition the weakend fish easily die after delivery to the
customer. That sea water tanks are more complicated to maintain and less
forgiving than fresh water only adds to these losses.

$$ That is so sad....... :*(
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

bettas in plastic cups - Today at The Pet Dept.
 

To his credit the manager over the pet dept. in a huge nationwide store
allowed me to show the new teenager how to do water changes on the "cups"
all their bettas were in. These cups were like cesspools.

When I left the young man was doing fine and never owned a fish in his life.
:-)
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

bettas in plastic cups - bettas.jpg (0/1)
 

Koi-lo wrote:


## And my country is one of them. I cannot locate anyone to complain to
about the conditions I'm aware of at a large well known store's pet dept.
The manager agrees, claims he'll have the "problems" taken care of and
doesn't. What can a person do? It's frustrating and aggravating.... no
one cares!!!

I can not say anything about the legal system in the US, as my stay over
there was too short. But here in Germany (and IIRC in England as well)
there are animal protection laws that make it a felony to cause
unnecessary harm to a vertebrate. The ministery of Agriculture and
Forestry (which is responsible for animal welfare) has detailed
guidelines on its web pages for the life fish trade. If those standarts
are obviously not met, a complaint to the local Trading Standards Office
or the police would result in promt action. Notification of animal
welfare organisations would result in picket lines outside the shop. I
can not believe that there is any civilised country were this would be
substantially different.

bettas in plastic cups - bettas.jpg (0/1)
 

Koi-lo wrote:

Are you suggesting we force these
chains to hire and train people how to tell who is and isn't qualified to
buy fish? To teach them about the hundreds of fish being sold in the USA?
There are two problems with that. One is who PAYS for this training,
especially when we all know these employees will soon be gone? The other is
how many people are going to want such training when so few are interested
in fish? Most are college kids who take these jobs here in the USA, not
someone looking to make a long-term commitment to such a low-paying
position.

There seems to be a different attitude toward staff in the US as
compared to, say, Europe and may be Japan as well. Here we train our
"human resources" as best we can, pay them well and hold onto them even
if buisiness is slack. In return we have a reliable, well trained work
force providing quality service. In the US, people get hired when
buisiness is good and fired again when it isn't, with one week notice.
No training, as that would increase cost. The result is well sumarised
by the saying: You get what you pay for.

One of the reasons for the success of Airbus over Boing is product
quality as a result of well trained staff. I recall reading a paper once
describing how Lufthansa would send their own engineers over to Boing to
supervise construction of their new planes, then fly them home empty,
take them appart and rebuild them, just to make sure they wouldn't fall
appart in mid-air.

Unfortunately, the short-term, "shareholder value" oriented approach is
gaining ground here too. As if the shareholders interest were not better
served by a company growing steadily in the long term.

bettas in plastic cups
 

NetMax wrote:


Their ref# 51539 (60 cm is a 24" tank) led he
http://www.bml.de/index-272804D294E2...9D9C2BC4C.html
but it requires some German fluency to do a proper search, and that's not
a language I know.

If you need specific info, email me and I check it up for you.

bettas in plastic cups - bettas.jpg (0/1)
 

"Dr Engelbert Buxbaum" wrote in message
...
Koi-lo wrote:


## And my country is one of them. I cannot locate anyone to complain to
about the conditions I'm aware of at a large well known store's pet dept.
The manager agrees, claims he'll have the "problems" taken care of and
doesn't. What can a person do? It's frustrating and aggravating.... no
one cares!!!
-------------
I can not say anything about the legal system in the US, as my stay over
there was too short. But here in Germany (and IIRC in England as well)
there are animal protection laws that make it a felony to cause
unnecessary harm to a vertebrate.

# We have such laws that cover livestock, dogs, cats and such but nothing
where fish are concerned. I did find another manager at the same store and
he allowed me to show the young man (who admitted he knew nothing about
fish) how to clean up the betta cups etc. The boy saw they were in bad
shape but was clueless as to what to do..... multiply this situation by
thousands of stores here in the USA. :-(

The ministery of Agriculture and
Forestry (which is responsible for animal welfare) has detailed
guidelines on its web pages for the life fish trade. If those standarts
are obviously not met, a complaint to the local Trading Standards Office
or the police would result in promt action. Notification of animal
welfare organisations would result in picket lines outside the shop. I
can not believe that there is any civilised country were this would be
substantially different.

# It's hard to believe alright, but here in the USA the stores can abuse
and neglect fish until they die - no one can do anything about it. Animal
rights groups are for the most part seen as kooks and ignored by the general
public. That is unless they resort to something truly outrageous such as
throwing blood on someone wearing furs.......
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

bettas in plastic cups - bettas.jpg (0/1)
 

"Dr Engelbert Buxbaum" wrote in message
...
Koi-lo wrote:

Are you suggesting we force these
chains to hire and train people how to tell who is and isn't qualified to
buy fish? To teach them about the hundreds of fish being sold in the
USA?
There are two problems with that. One is who PAYS for this training,
especially when we all know these employees will soon be gone? The other
is
how many people are going to want such training when so few are
interested
in fish? Most are college kids who take these jobs here in the USA, not
someone looking to make a long-term commitment to such a low-paying
position.
-----------
There seems to be a different attitude toward staff in the US as
compared to, say, Europe and may be Japan as well. Here we train our
"human resources" as best we can, pay them well and hold onto them even
if buisiness is slack. In return we have a reliable, well trained work
force providing quality service. In the US, people get hired when
buisiness is good and fired again when it isn't, with one week notice.
No training, as that would increase cost. The result is well sumarised
by the saying: You get what you pay for.

## EXACTLY!!!! These people are seen as expendable as there is a never
ending supply of college kids looking for a temporary job. Few places will
waste time training them because they know the low-wages will soon drive
them away. They seem to be entry level jobs. As the young person gains
working experience they move on to something that pays better and has better
hours. Once out of school they're gone. The turn-over in the shops where I
live is unbelievable. You seldom see the same face twice.

One of the reasons for the success of Airbus over Boing is product
quality as a result of well trained staff. I recall reading a paper once
describing how Lufthansa would send their own engineers over to Boing to
supervise construction of their new planes, then fly them home empty,
take them appart and rebuild them, just to make sure they wouldn't fall
appart in mid-air.

Unfortunately, the short-term, "shareholder value" oriented approach is
gaining ground here too. As if the shareholders interest were not better
served by a company growing steadily in the long term.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o