"erik" wrote in message
...
| This reminds me of how confusing things were when I first got
started.
| I read a couple of good books ( a couple of times each ) before I
| started to "get it". I'll try to summarize a little here.
|
|
| The Basics of Filtration for the Reef Aquarium
| http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...3/beginner.htm
|
| These people are a little weird but they have a lot of good info
| online. Look at the stuff about the "bullet proof reef"
| http://www.garf.org
|
|


Well done, erik. May I also point you to www.reefcentral.com
if you haven't been there already. Absolutely the best reef\marine
source I've ever found.

billy


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erik wrote in message . ..
This reminds me of how confusing things were when I first got started.
I read a couple of good books ( a couple of times each ) before I
started to "get it".

Erik

Thank you very much for the clearest explanation of reef tank
microbiology and biochemistry for beginners like us we have seen to
date. Superb and really helpful.

Now the dilemma. We are sitting here looking at our nice neat setup
based on instructions from the original dealer who advised us. We also
spoke with a dealer yesterday, seemed to be a pretty experienced guy,
about whether he could help us make choices in terms of compatible
stock. His first question was where we are headed - and we confirmed
that we wanted a mixed tank with fish corels and crustaceans. Is
second question was about the setup we have - and we explained to him
the dual mechanical filter arrangement. At this point, he expressed
his approval of the "more than adequate" filtration capacity and
confirmed that the only thing missing was a skimmer.

We also discussed the fact that we had been advised to use biomature
fluid rather than live rock to drive the maturation process. He said
there were different schools of thought but that the biomature route
was the most reliable. He also confirmed that live rock could/should
be added later (a third dealer confirmed this story last week). What
we didn't discuss was substrate depth, though the original dealer
advised a thin 1cm layer of corel sand, which we have gone with.

So, the dilemma is whether to start again with a deep sand bed and
live rock to drive the maturation process and form the foundation for
biological recycling, with a skimmer added for the reasons we now
understand (losing the canister and decommisioning the internal Juwel
mechanical filter along the way)

-OR-

Try to adjust the setup we have to deal with the Nitrate accumulation
problem and the associated algae proloferation issue.

Let's assume for a minute that we wanted to exhaust the possibilities
of the second option before driving down the "no mechanical
filtration" route (because of the investment we have made and the
advice we are receiving from dealers). Would the introduction of live
rock and a deep sand bed not minimise the problem and make it
manageable?

Please don't misunderstand - we are not looking to disregard all of
the great advice we are receiving, but before taking what to us seems
like a drastic step which deviates from the books we have read and the
views of the local guys, we want to make sure there is no other option
for producing a relatively safe and stable reef environment

This is a fascinating discussion though, and if nothing else, is
confirming our commitment to getting to grips with this whole area,

Cheers
Dale and H

The first part of what I said regarding how the bacteria work is
simple fact.

The second part on how to best utilize these biological processes in
order to accomplish your goals is only my opinion.

There are many ways to run a reef. Some are clearly better than
others. The rest are a matter of opinion and how much work you care
to do.

I say ask questions and then go with whatever you are comfortable
with. Meanwhile, get yourself some good books and snoop around on
the internet. Study your new hobby. Then as you learn more, you can
go back and correct any mistakes you might have made.



Erik


On 31 Aug 2004 13:43:14 -0700, (Dale & H) wrote:

erik wrote in message . ..
This reminds me of how confusing things were when I first got started.
I read a couple of good books ( a couple of times each ) before I
started to "get it".

Erik

Thank you very much for the clearest explanation of reef tank
microbiology and biochemistry for beginners like us we have seen to
date. Superb and really helpful.

Now the dilemma. We are sitting here looking at our nice neat setup
based on instructions from the original dealer who advised us. We also
spoke with a dealer yesterday, seemed to be a pretty experienced guy,
about whether he could help us make choices in terms of compatible
stock. His first question was where we are headed - and we confirmed
that we wanted a mixed tank with fish corels and crustaceans. Is
second question was about the setup we have - and we explained to him
the dual mechanical filter arrangement. At this point, he expressed
his approval of the "more than adequate" filtration capacity and
confirmed that the only thing missing was a skimmer.

We also discussed the fact that we had been advised to use biomature
fluid rather than live rock to drive the maturation process. He said
there were different schools of thought but that the biomature route
was the most reliable. He also confirmed that live rock could/should
be added later (a third dealer confirmed this story last week). What
we didn't discuss was substrate depth, though the original dealer
advised a thin 1cm layer of corel sand, which we have gone with.

So, the dilemma is whether to start again with a deep sand bed and
live rock to drive the maturation process and form the foundation for
biological recycling, with a skimmer added for the reasons we now
understand (losing the canister and decommisioning the internal Juwel
mechanical filter along the way)

-OR-

Try to adjust the setup we have to deal with the Nitrate accumulation
problem and the associated algae proloferation issue.

Let's assume for a minute that we wanted to exhaust the possibilities
of the second option before driving down the "no mechanical
filtration" route (because of the investment we have made and the
advice we are receiving from dealers). Would the introduction of live
rock and a deep sand bed not minimise the problem and make it
manageable?

Please don't misunderstand - we are not looking to disregard all of
the great advice we are receiving, but before taking what to us seems
like a drastic step which deviates from the books we have read and the
views of the local guys, we want to make sure there is no other option
for producing a relatively safe and stable reef environment

This is a fascinating discussion though, and if nothing else, is
confirming our commitment to getting to grips with this whole area,

Cheers
Dale and H

You should run some carbon every now and then.


"MonkeyBoy" wrote in message
...
"Billy" wrote in message
...
"Toni" wrote in message
. ..

|
|
|
| I would say yes to the skimmer.... trade the cannister filter in
for it.
|


Agreed, cannister filters are not really a good choice for a reef
tank, they manufacture nitrates at an alarming rate. Some reefers
will tell stories of amazingly high nitrates for years on end, but
it's just not worth the risk. Trade\sell the 204 and aquire the best
skimmer you can afford.

billy


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I'm setting up my 10 gal reef (LR & LS) currently and was planning to
use both a Prizm Skimmer (Deluxe model) as well as an Eheim 2211
canister filter. Are you saying that it's a bad idea to use the
canister filter even in conjunction with the skimmer? Don't I need
some form of mechanical filtration?

Regards,

MB

"MonkeyBoy" wrote in message
...
|
| I'm setting up my 10 gal reef (LR & LS) currently and was planning
to
| use both a Prizm Skimmer (Deluxe model) as well as an Eheim 2211
| canister filter. Are you saying that it's a bad idea to use the
| canister filter even in conjunction with the skimmer? Don't I need
| some form of mechanical filtration?
|

I don't use any mechanical filtration in my 75. My cleanup crew keeps
the particulates down. Every now and them I throw the magnum on to
polish the water. FWIW, your Prizm Deluxe has a chamber for filter
media. And no, I would NOT use the canister filter on a reef tank. A
*good* skimmer is the key.


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Scroll down for previous reply.

Erik have given you the starting point.
Local Fish Store {LFS) will sell you more than you need.

If you want reef or close to reef, try the natural way as much as possible.
Regarding about nitrate, the final stage of the cycle, can not be perform by
mechanical device to be remove nitrate. Only bacteria can breakdown nitrate
to harmless nitrogen gas from a DSB [Not from a shadow sand bed]. If you
opt for some sort of device to remove ntirate, then try Protein Skimmer.
Protein Skimmer remove any DOC or nutrient that maybe floating with the
current.

My suggestion is to remove any BiosFilteration or mechanical filteration.
LR or any scanvenager like crab / shrimp / star / snail and even fish will
remove any possible uneaten food.

Suggestion:
LR
LS
PS
Varies scanvenger [commonly call janitoral crew].

On other note - try not to add any inhabitant until your new tank get
cycled. Your water reading should be :
Amnona / Nitrite / Nitrate = non-detectable.

CapFusion,....


"Dale & H" wrote in message
om...
erik wrote in message
. ..

Erik

Thank you very much for the clearest explanation of reef tank
microbiology and biochemistry for beginners like us we have seen to
date. Superb and really helpful.

Now the dilemma. We are sitting here looking at our nice neat setup
based on instructions from the original dealer who advised us. We also
spoke with a dealer yesterday, seemed to be a pretty experienced guy,
about whether he could help us make choices in terms of compatible
stock. His first question was where we are headed - and we confirmed
that we wanted a mixed tank with fish corels and crustaceans. Is
second question was about the setup we have - and we explained to him
the dual mechanical filter arrangement. At this point, he expressed
his approval of the "more than adequate" filtration capacity and
confirmed that the only thing missing was a skimmer.

We also discussed the fact that we had been advised to use biomature
fluid rather than live rock to drive the maturation process. He said
there were different schools of thought but that the biomature route
was the most reliable. He also confirmed that live rock could/should
be added later (a third dealer confirmed this story last week). What
we didn't discuss was substrate depth, though the original dealer
advised a thin 1cm layer of corel sand, which we have gone with.

So, the dilemma is whether to start again with a deep sand bed and
live rock to drive the maturation process and form the foundation for
biological recycling, with a skimmer added for the reasons we now
understand (losing the canister and decommisioning the internal Juwel
mechanical filter along the way)

-OR-

Try to adjust the setup we have to deal with the Nitrate accumulation
problem and the associated algae proloferation issue.

Let's assume for a minute that we wanted to exhaust the possibilities
of the second option before driving down the "no mechanical
filtration" route (because of the investment we have made and the
advice we are receiving from dealers). Would the introduction of live
rock and a deep sand bed not minimise the problem and make it
manageable?

Please don't misunderstand - we are not looking to disregard all of
the great advice we are receiving, but before taking what to us seems
like a drastic step which deviates from the books we have read and the
views of the local guys, we want to make sure there is no other option
for producing a relatively safe and stable reef environment

This is a fascinating discussion though, and if nothing else, is
confirming our commitment to getting to grips with this whole area,

Cheers
Dale and H

snipped

We also discussed the fact that we had been advised to use biomature
fluid rather than live rock to drive the maturation process. He said
there were different schools of thought but that the biomature route
was the most reliable. He also confirmed that live rock could/should
be added later (a third dealer confirmed this story last week). What
we didn't discuss was substrate depth, though the original dealer
advised a thin 1cm layer of corel sand, which we have gone with.

snipped

You "could" add live rock later, but if you wait until your tank cycles and
stabilizes, adding the live rock then will cause problems, as there's always
some dieoff of the "live" stuff in the rock. IMO you'd be much better off
starting out with a deep sand bed and live rock as the base for your setup.
It'll cost more, but be worth it in the long run. Plus the rock is so
fascinating to watch as critters come out and things grow on it. AND the
person who said that fish stores will sell you more than you need is
absolutely right! Half the time they have no idea what they're talking
about in regards to aquariums in general and reef tanks in particular.

Cindy