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"chris nuttall" wrote in message
om... what is 'old tank syndrome'? chris Basically, everything organic (uneaten food, fish waste, dead plant matter etc) slowly gets broken down by bacteria releasing ammonia, and acidifying the water (by first reducing your buffer and then reducing your pH). Under normal conditions, this extra ammonia is consumed by nitrifying bacteria and the acidifying effect is absorbed by your water's buffer (also known as the karbonate hardness or kH). The buffer is replenished by routine water changes. In tanks which have been running a long time and/or haven't been properly maintained, this dissolving organic matter (detritus or mulm) accumulates in the gravel and its effects begin overtaking the aquarium system's ability to cope with them. In hard-water tanks, this manifests itself as very high and persistent nitrates (NO3). In all other tanks, OTS manifests itself by extremely and persistently low pH. You can detect the onset of OTS in most tanks by measuring to see if there is a significant difference between your source water kH and your tank water kH (usually measured in degrees or dkH, ie: under 2dkH = danger, under 4dkH = caution - dependant on application). hth http://www.2cah.com/netmax/basics/water/water.shtml#ots -- www.NetMax.tk |
|| about the co2 level; i do not inject co2, there is an air pump
|| running (which should have the opposite effect i think). The ph and || kh only start at those values, they soon fall to much lower levels. || for 2 years there was no problem, its only recently started happening || (co-incidentally at the same time i started getting a lot of snails, || i wonder if they could be robbing the water of bicarbonates?) Not likely... || i have tried bicardonate of soda, the ph and kh still fall, they just || start from a higher value, i tried evian too, with the same result. || i think i should get some coral, then as it dissolves there will be || more 'in reserve' || || chris I'm leaning towards a bad test kit... how old are they? -- | RedForeman ©® fabricator and creator of the ratbike streetfighter!!! | ========================== | 2003 TRX450ES | 1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale) | '98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted.... | ========================== | ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø | ((((º`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·.¸. ((((º ·´¯`·. , .·´¯`·.. ((((º | for any questions you may have.... | www.gmail.com |
the test kit is a strip with multiple tests on it, there is a pot of
25 and i have been testing quite frequently lately, so they are only a few weeks old. I think that the falling kh and ph are real, after a waterchange the values are normal, and as i test during the next week the kh slowly drops, and once it reaches 3 or 4 then the ph starts to drop too, then if i let it go on, i come downstairs one morning to dead fish (i guess the ph drops further during the hight due to the respiration of the plants). the question is why is it happening. the tank is not over stocked, i dont think i overfeed, i do a partial waterchange every week, the tap water is reasonble, and it is stable over a week or more if left in a glass. The only thing which is out of the ordinary is the number of these snails in the gravel, there are hundreds of them. I have a lot of bottom feeders so much of the food ends up on the substrate, which is why i suppose the snails get anything to eat. The guy in the lfs thinks the number of snails could be taking my modest stocking level up to the limit, both in terms of C02 emmitted, and of amonia produced- both of these thinks produce acid. I am declairing war on the snails, and if it turns out not to be their fault, then they can form a terrorist cell in the uk and side with all of the other needlessly persecuted populations of the world.....i think this is beginning to get to me!!! chris |
|| The only thing which is out of the ordinary is the number of these
|| snails in the gravel, there are hundreds of them. I have a lot of || bottom feeders so much of the food ends up on the substrate, which is || why i suppose the snails get anything to eat. The guy in the lfs || thinks the number of snails could be taking my modest stocking level || up to the limit, both in terms of C02 emmitted, and of amonia || produced- both of these thinks produce acid. I am declairing war on || the snails, and if it turns out not to be their fault, then they can || form a terrorist cell in the uk and side with all of the other || needlessly persecuted populations of the world.....i think this is || beginning to get to me!!! || || chris I don't buy into that, because, my 10g, only has 2 kribs, 3 kuhlis, and a bristlenose in it, planted, and it's got well over several thousand MTS and I maintain a healthy 7.2pH and kH of 3 using ONLY black onyx sand... hmmm We've never discussed what substrate you have.... what ARE you using? -- | RedForeman ©® fabricator and creator of the ratbike streetfighter!!! | ========================== | 2003 TRX450ES | 1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale) | '98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted.... | ========================== | ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø | ((((º`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·.¸. ((((º ·´¯`·. , .·´¯`·.. ((((º | for any questions you may have.... | Gmail - the ultimate in disappointment... |
I don't buy into that, because, my 10g, only has 2 kribs, 3 kuhlis, and a
bristlenose in it, planted, and it's got well over several thousand MTS and I maintain a healthy 7.2pH and kH of 3 using ONLY black onyx sand... hmmm We've never discussed what substrate you have.... what ARE you using? it's plain old gravel, roughly 1/4" in size. I recently (like two weeks ago) removed half of it, so it is now about 1" deep. Less for the snails to live in. I siphon the gravel well every time i do a w/c (which is currently weekly) I have heard that bog wood can lower the ph, but i dont know how, or how vigerous it is. There is a 9" long bit in there for the bristlenoses(apparently there is a theory that munching on it is essential to their diet - they do munch on it too, they also spawn regularly under it) -could this be the trouble? It has been in the tank since day one - 3 years now, never a problem before...... I have also heard that mature sword plants which grow vigerously (again - i have one) can de-calcify the water, causing a kh drop, but i dont know how serious it is..... The latest thing to happen in this tale of woe is a mild outbreak of ich, i have spotted it early and am treting with a formaldahide based product. I think the ph droips are ****ing the fish off somewhat! at a loss..... chris |
||| I don't buy into that, because, my 10g, only has 2 kribs, 3 kuhlis,
||| and a bristlenose in it, planted, and it's got well over several ||| thousand MTS and I maintain a healthy 7.2pH and kH of 3 using ONLY ||| black onyx sand... hmmm ||| ||| We've never discussed what substrate you have.... what ARE you ||| using? || || it's plain old gravel, roughly 1/4" in size. I recently (like two || weeks ago) removed half of it, so it is now about 1" deep. Less for || the snails to live in. || I siphon the gravel well every time i do a w/c (which is currently || weekly) regular gravel is inert... and disturbing the gravel can lead to some nasties getting into the water, which you already see/smell... || I have heard that bog wood can lower the ph, but i dont know how, or || how vigerous it is. There is a 9" long bit in there for the || bristlenoses(apparently there is a theory that munching on it is || essential to their diet - they do munch on it too, they also spawn || regularly under it) -could this be the trouble? It has been in the || tank since day one - 3 years now, never a problem before...... I think the driftwood/bogwood soften the water, not sure they actually lower pH... || I have also heard that mature sword plants which grow vigerously || (again - i have one) can de-calcify the water, causing a kh drop, but || i dont know how serious it is..... First time I've ever heard that.... || The latest thing to happen in this tale of woe is a mild outbreak of || ich, i have spotted it early and am treting with a formaldahide based || product. I think the ph droips are ****ing the fish off somewhat! I can see where you'd be frustrated.... Can I offer a totally off the wall beginning step to a possible end result type of solution?? 1. Identify what pH you'd like to target... Lets use 7.0 for starters..Make your ritual waterchanges as normal, possibly adding baking soda to buffer up to 7.6 or so...(btw, 7.0 is ok for 90% of fish), since your doing weely w/c, it won't run out in a week. That should stabilize your buffer, and help maintain a rock solid pH... if it does drop, try option 2. 2. Add some crushed coral to a used pair of pantyhose and drop it in the back of your filter(after rinsing thoroughly). Double bagging might make it too hard to leech, so maybe one single wrapping will suffice... What that will aid in, is to release or dissolve a bit at a time and help keep your pH more stable than sodium bicarb...and, btw, snails use calcium bicarb, that's what their shells are made of, so they can't really 'rob' you of anything.... you could take a look at them to see if the tips of their shells are turning white, that would mean there is a shortage in the first place... -- | RedForeman ©® fabricator and creator of the ratbike streetfighter!!! | ========================== | 2003 TRX450ES | 1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale) | '98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted.... | ========================== | ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø | ((((º`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·.¸. ((((º ·´¯`·. , .·´¯`·.. ((((º | for any questions you may have.... | Gmail - the ultimate in disappointment... |
1. Identify what pH you'd like to target... Lets use 7.0 for starters..Make
your ritual waterchanges as normal, possibly adding baking soda to buffer up to 7.6 or so...(btw, 7.0 is ok for 90% of fish), since your doing weely w/c, it won't run out in a week. That should stabilize your buffer, and help maintain a rock solid pH... if it does drop, try option 2. already tried that and it does drop 2. Add some crushed coral to a used pair of pantyhose and drop it in the back of your filter(after rinsing thoroughly). Double bagging might make it too hard to leech, so maybe one single wrapping will suffice... i bought the coral and put it in and old stocking, but i have taken it out while i treat the ich for two reasons, first just in case it absorbs the medicine, and also because i have to do a w/c every four days anyway while i treat the fish......but i will put it back and see if it works. What that will aid in, is to release or dissolve a bit at a time and help keep your pH more stable than sodium bicarb...and, btw, snails use calcium bicarb i didnt know that...thanks! , that's what their shells are made of, so they can't really 'rob' you of anything.... is calcium bicarbonate not a ph buffer then?....it must be present in the tap water to enable the snails to grow their shells in the first place......the coral is made of the same compound right? so that will be a direct replacement for the useage of the snails? you could take a look at them to see if the tips of their shells are turning white, that would mean there is a shortage in the first place... no, they are lovely and healthy! chris |
|| is calcium bicarbonate not a ph buffer then?....it must be present in
|| the tap water to enable the snails to grow their shells in the first || place......the coral is made of the same compound right? so that will || be a direct replacement for the useage of the snails? of course your tap water DOES contain calcium if it's city water... well water doesn't... But the levels of calcium are so extremely low, almost undetectable by a test kit... You might have higher levels if your coffee pot gets a white crusty rim, that's a calcium deposit... if you have softer water, less likely you have calcium... || you could take a look at them to see if the tips of their ||| shells are turning white, that would mean there is a shortage in ||| the first place... || || no, they are lovely and healthy! || Then your levels of calcium are low enough to not leave calcium rings on your tank, but high enoug that keeps the snails good and shiny... -- | RedForeman ©® fabricator and creator of the ratbike streetfighter!!! | ========================== | 2003 TRX450ES | 1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale) | '98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted.... | ========================== | ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø | ((((º`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·.¸. ((((º ·´¯`·. , .·´¯`·.. ((((º | for any questions you may have.... | Gmail - the ultimate in disappointment... |
|| is calcium bicarbonate not a ph buffer then?....it must be present in
|| the tap water to enable the snails to grow their shells in the first || place......the coral is made of the same compound right? so that will || be a direct replacement for the useage of the snails? Calcium carbonate is an additive, mainly used for reef tanks, helps keep the corals and shell animals healthy, and no, it's not actually a buffer... what *is* a buffer is sodium carbonate..aka.. baking soda.. Arm&Hammer.... -- | RedForeman ©® fabricator and creator of the ratbike streetfighter!!! | ========================== | 2003 TRX450ES | 1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale) | '98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted.... | ========================== | ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø | ((((º`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·.¸. ((((º ·´¯`·. , .·´¯`·.. ((((º | for any questions you may have.... | Gmail - the ultimate in disappointment... |
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