"Ozdude" wrote in message
...

"Gill Passman" gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote in message
.. .
Not experienced, even remotely, but just done some research....from what
I
can see Potassium Permanganate is not the way to go - it can become more
toxic the higher the pH level. Have you considered using
Melafix/Pimafix?
I
also read that something containing Phenoxyethanol can help (don't know
if
it is contained in Melafix/Pimafix) - apparently it can be found in some
proprietary medicines...Also read that an antibiotic such as
oxytetracycline
might be needed

Apart from that it is water changes, gravel cleaning, trying to keep the
temp down and the water oxygenated as you say....

Flexibacter columnaris apparently is quite commonly present in aquarium
water, on dead organic matter and even on healthy fish skin....

Hi Gill,

I am off to the LFS today to ask their advice too. They probably have the
chemical resolutions but I know they don't carry medicated foods.

I read about MelaFix/PimaFix myself, on a few sites, but it seems it
doesn't
really rid the tank of it. I went to AP's web site and checked out the FAQ
on these products and I like it that they are natural and don't affect
snail, plants or pH, and there is a small possibility I may be able to use
these two products, but there is some discussion around on the forum
boards
(particularly Cichlid and Betta boards) that say it doesn't really fix the
problem.

I find this hard to believe personally, as I know what Melaluca (Tea Tree)
can do for human bacterial infections, and I have no reason to think it
won't do the same for fish.

Roy has stated that Flex is present always in everyone's tank, and
considering that fact, it makes sense that if a fish becomes stressed
through what-ever reason it's natural defense to it is going to break
down.

I am shocked at how filthy my gravel was and I can't begin to stress how
important it is you get a really good gravel cleaner that suits your tank.
I
was using a cleaner suitable for a small tank and when I bought the new
22"
one I'd say it sucked up 400% more junk on it's first use that the little
one just wasn't able to pull up out of the substrate.

Any way, I'll visit the LFS and I also am going to remove all of my plants
from their plastic pots full of clay kitty litter and replant them into
the
substrate proper. I am suspicious that the clay in the litter is part of
my
bacterial problem because I lifted a pot out a while ago and noticed at
the
line where gravel and litter met there was a thin bright green band of
what
looked like algae - I suspect now it isn't - it's probably bacterial.

I will wait a while to do this though unless it (Flex) gets so bad it gets
out of control. I don't think I should stress the fish if I can help it -
I
need them to build up as much natural immunity/ability as possible right
now - there is war on! ;)

Regards,

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith


Hi Oz,

Just one thing, which isn't really important at the moment...I tried taking
the plants out of their pots and got into a total mess (especially with the
clowns digging them up). Also makes it a bit harder when cleaning the
gravel - a job normally reserved for "hubby" as he's got more strength in
his arms than I do these days - plants go everywhere - (wish he was as
vigourous with the vaccuum cleaner in the house - lol)....at least it is
easier to reposition them if they are contained in pots....

When it comes to adding chemicals pH has to be a major concern....chemicals
can react differently depending on whether added to acid, alkaline or
neutral substances. I would research very carefully before going down this
route. Yours is borderline acid/neutral at the moment in the tank and your
tap water is alkaline as far as I can tell from your postings....I'm not a
chemist so I'm not sure of the exact implications of adding the Potassium
Permanganate but I know someone who is...too late to phone them now but I
should be able to talk to them tomorrow if it would help....

If this is always present in the water - which seems to be what everyone is
saying - maybe it is down to treating the symptoms right now to sort the
fish and then taking a step back and review to stopping it happening
again....maybe it isn't possible to get rid of permanently, maybe we all
have it in our tanks..... Anyway see what your LFS says...

Good Luck and best wishes
Gill

"Ozdude" wrote in message
...

"Larry" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 09:02:21 +1000, miskairal
wrote:

Oz, I think it's our Aussie climate. I have not added new fish for over
a year and about 6 weeks ago developed the same sort of symptoms you
describe and I also put it down to Columnaris.

Excuse me for my ignorance if it shows but are your homes air
conditioned in Australia? In Canada, if the temp gets to 30C plus for
weeks on end most have air conditioners installed to keep it at
22-25C.

No, not all. It's quite common in Queensland and the Northern Territory,
for
instance to use large ceiling fans. I myself use a fan.

Air conditioning is causing our state power grids to struggle and is
actually a big issue at the moment as to energy use. Power isn't cheap in
this country and most people on lower incomes can't afford either the
power
or the air-con in the first place.

Personally, heat doesn't bother me - I like it and you learn if you come
from the the driest inhabited state on the planet (South Australia) as I
do,
how to cool a house using naural methods. It involves "farming" cool air
from the night and trapping it in the house - un-airconditioned homes are
ususally the ones on a 40C day with all the windows and blinds shut - to
keep the solar radiation out and keep the cool air farmed from the night
in.

It all seems strange to those who have air conditioners to level out their
cooling and heating, and I have been chuckling a bit lately because of a
program they show on TV here called "A Place In ....." where English
couples
go looking for houses in Europe somewhere - they always whinge on about
central heating or air conditioning and won't buy a place if it doesn't
have
one or the other or both :)

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith


Sorry I can't let this pass being English - lol

Having spent the last few weeks (coldest this winter) with no Central
Heating (boiler dead) some of us English are capable of controlling our
temps...I do a better job with the fish than the kids granted - OK in the
winter we usually use the CH but in the summer it's all blinds and fans -
bit worried it will get too hot for the fish though later in the year (this
will be our first full summer with them) - so watch this space when I ask
you guys on how to cool things down :-) ....might get tempted to buy an
AirCon unit but only for the fish of course....

So the English are now farming out their "more interesting" TV progs to you
guys...hey it might be revenge for Neighbours - lol
Gill

Organic latent (uneaten foods and fish waste) waters create conditions
that encourage disease, parasites, and opportunistic bacteria, besides
the build-up of DOCs, which by the way, adds to the TDS level. NitrAte
levels can get quite high. As these organics decay, they use a lot of
oxygen - the process is called eutrophication. The same thing happens
within your filter if you don't pre-filter, or clean the intrapment
media - the filter itself becomes the source of organic pollution! It
also enhances conversion of nitrAte to nitrite. Docs (dissolved organic
compounds) inhibit nitrification and increase BOD (bio-chemical oxygen
demand) - high BOD reduces amount of oxygen in tank. DOCs are not
detected by a hardness test, however they will measure on a
conductivity meter. By comparing the differences between the two test
you can determine DOC levels. DOCs become part of the TDS reading -
while the TDS value may very slighty, it must be maintained within a
nerrow range (slowly increased or decreased - 20%) - thus, a water
change of no more than 20% on a tank with little or no
maintenance......
The symptoms you gave don't add up to Flex. disease - no white fuzzy
lesions of the mouth or white fuzzy patches scattered over the body! I
would suspect another gram-negative bacterium called Aeromonas - fits
your symptoms better - a secondary bacterial infection as is Flex.
Treated the same as you would treat Flex. disease, sometimes infects at
the same time as Flex. Feeding a medicated food along with adding an
antibiotic to the tank is the best treatment. Tetra's medicated foods
don't work on Flex. disease - get a Waterlife product called Protozin
and Myxazin (medicated food). For treating the tank, Potassium
Permanganate works, 1/2 tsp. per 10 gals, but takes longer than
Maracyn-Two or Kanamycin. Oxytetracycline, Erythromycin or Enrofloxacin
(baytril) are faster but they would also knock out your
bio-filter......
You say your water parameters/quality is good - your temp. got to high,
tanks substrate dirty, and you did a 100% water change in two days - a
bit of fluctuation going on there. Here is the five points of defining
water quality; #1 - organic pollution, #2 - ammonia, nitrite and
nitrAte, #3 - dH, pH, temperature. #4 chemically clean, ie; chlorine,
heavy metals, treatment chemicals, organophosphates, #5 -
***stability***, not fluctuation............ Frank

On 3 Mar 2005 17:07:54 -0800, "Frank" wrote:

snip

===For treating the tank, Potassium
===Permanganate works, 1/2 tsp. per 10 gals, but takes longer than
===Maracyn-Two or Kanamycin. Oxytetracycline, Erythromycin or Enrofloxacin
===(baytril) are faster but they would also knock out your
===bio-filter......snip

I don't quite understand this statement about PP working but not as
fast as Maracyn-2 etc etc...

PP is not a medication. Its an oxidizer. The other items are
antibiotics. While antibiotic levels in water will kill some things,
it usually takes alot longer for it to do any good, as its usually a 3
or more day treatment.

PP on the other hand will knock out any nasties within 4 to 8
hours........but will do nothing in the line of providing antibiotic
supplement to the fish. Therefore its always best to follow up with
antibiotics in the water or feed, when using PP. Even though the fish
may be cured with PP, it is still susceptible to reinfection as its
immune system is down or low.......

I'm missing something here..................


==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!

Ozdude wrote:

* UV sterilization seems complicated if you don't have the right filter to
push the water through the device to start with.


I can't begin to even think about this through lack of financial resources;)

Well the same here really but I thought I should at least look into it.


* I can't find a dose rate for potassium permanganate


If I do, I'll post it for you. I am looking at this seriously and I can get
PP very easily.


* A water cooling system seems also comlicated and untidy (I am a female
:)
* We don't seem to have access to antibiotics formulated for fish here in
Oz and if you buy them from the vet, apart from expense, it will be in a
form for some other animal and may have additives unsuitable for fish ie.
an injectable form of the drug that has some liquid to "carry" the drug.


I wonder why we can't buy medicated food in this country?

I dont' think you can get it in the UK either???

Because there are too many idiots out there who do one of the following
a) Don't continue the course long enough and cause drug resistance
b) Don't use the correct strength and cause drug resistance
c) Dump water in our creeks etc and cause nature problems
d) Put it in the food of animals that are going to be slaughtered for
human consumption
....to name a few.

Now if it were in medicated food, how would you get the correct dosage
to the fish? If the fish is sick, it probably is not eating enough (if
at all) and therefore you would be exposing those bacteria to an
antibiotic but not in the strength to kill it or all of them. The
survivors are the ones who are resistant to that antibiotic. If those
fish being treated were from a fish farm then those bacteria that are
resistant could enter the human food chain and the time is already here
when many human bacteria are now resistant to most, if not all, antibiotics.

I get annoyed that I can't get antibiotics for fish until I start to
think of what could happen. In the long run I don't suppose it will help
Aust. b/c the countries that allow free use of antibiotics will bring
in their resistant bugs here anyway.

I think it's time to really get the tank clean and keep it clean. That's the
first thing I should do.

And ultimately hope that summer passes, so we can all get our water down to
a reasonable temperature, but then at lower temps we get ich if we're not
careful - it's a minefield this aquarium thing! ;)

I just heard it is forecast to get to 36 here tomorrow - it's autumn
isn't it?


If you come up with any answers PLEASE tell me.


Don't worry I will ;)

Good Luck!

ThankYOU!


Thanks.

Oz

Roy~ wrote:
Go to the University of Florida website and read for yourself on the
preferred treatment for columinaris (sp?) its potassium permanganate.
Thjis problem is perhaps the loargest problem any pond or fish keeper
or fish farmer is going to encounter in this part. And PP is the
approved preferred treatment in addition to antibiotic feeds.......

check it out at:
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu

Look for the articles on:
Fungal Diseases of Fish (Fact Sheet VM97)
Use of PP to Control External Infections of Ornamental Fish (Fact
Sheet FA-37)
Columnaris Disease ( SRAC pub #479)
Potassium Permanganate in Fish Ponds (Fact Sheet FA-23)

Oh and nowhere doe sit mention any warnings as to Ph requirements, but
the use of MG does have warnings about PH as does other meds) Ph is
not much of a concern with PP)

Other than just visual signs have you scoped your fish to make a firm
diagnosis..........If your going by seat of the pants diagnosis, you
may well be in left field, but PP would still be applicable in most
all but say for Ick, where a copper of MG/F would be the best choice)

==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!

I can't seem to get anywhere at that website. I keep getting this message

java.rmi.ConnectException: Connection refused to host: 128.227.96.39;
nested exception is: java.net.ConnectException: Connection refused at
sun.rmi.transport.tcp.TCPEndpoint.newSocket(TCPEnd point.java:567) at

firefox 1.0
any ideas?

Frank wrote:

The symptoms you gave don't add up to Flex. disease - no white fuzzy
lesions of the mouth or white fuzzy patches scattered over the body! I
would suspect another gram-negative bacterium called Aeromonas - fits
your symptoms better - a secondary bacterial infection as is Flex.
Treated the same as you would treat Flex. disease, sometimes infects at
the same time as Flex. Feeding a medicated food along with adding an
antibiotic to the tank is the best treatment. Tetra's medicated foods
don't work on Flex. disease - get a Waterlife product called Protozin
and Myxazin (medicated food).

Apparently Myxazin and Protozin will no longer be available in Australia.

In article .com,
Old Salt wrote:
HI Oz,

A good old fall back that I always keep to hand is Malachite Green.

All I've ever managed to do with that stuff is kill fish. I have much
better luck with Acriflavine. Not quite as toxic; contains no copper.

One of the problems with copper (besides being letah to invertebrates)
is it precipitates out into copper carbonate. So you need to add more.
then when the pH goes more acidic it all comes back into solution at once.

Nasty stuff.

--
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I successfully cure columnaris ("flex") woth Acriflavine. There are good
reasons to never use antibiotics in aquarium water. Acriflavine takes
about 3 weeks. The disease loevs heat so keep them cool as possible.

Bettas are realy prone to this disease.

--
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conditioned in Australia? In Canada, if the temp gets to 30C plus for
weeks on end most have air conditioners installed to keep it at
22-25C.

Yes, indeed. But only in summer. Last year this happened on a tuesday in August.


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
http://www.mbz.org | Mercedes Mailing lists: http://lists.mbz.org
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | Killies, killi.net, Crypts, aquaria.net
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Old wris****ches http://watches.list.mbz.org